Some here may have an overly-romantic view of America.

[Yavin4]

From slavery to "the trail of tears" to the Civil War to the Jim Crow South to the Homestead labor riots to the Battle of Virden to Japanese internment camps to race riots to Bull Connor to the Freedom Riders and on and on and on.

A lot of ugliness and violence in America's past has been sanitized in the history books that some of you had in school. We've always been a violent, ugly nation. Sure, since WWII progress on many fronts were made, but most of that was in response to the growing threat of Communism. It was in the govt's best interest to show the world how good things were here in order to combat Communist influence. Since the fall of Communism, we are reverting back to pre-WWII America.

[DJ Synikus Makisimus]

1. "A People's History of the United States" by Howard Zinn can

help with the opening of eyes about American history, if one is so inclined. Be aware that it's just a start.

[La Coliniere]

14. I believe most people experience a paradigm shift

in how they view the USA after reading Zinn’s essential masterpiece. I know I did. Felt like a sucker punch. I’ve purchased many copies over the years to give to those who I felt needed the same kind of paradigm shift.

[DJ Synikus Makisimus]

15. Indeed! For further reading to understand the modern system,

I am currently reading The Devil's Chessboard by David Talbot. While it's nominally about Allan Dulles, the evil mastermind of U.S. Cold War espionage, it's actually more about the way that the Dulles brothers and people like them enabled the oligarch problem we now have. It's not some random conspiracy theory, but rather about how several very wealthy Americans (and some non-superrich allies) with shared interests worked to thwart the New Deal, and its democratic implications, to re-assert elite control. While politicians from all two parties were their willing playthings, Nixon features bigly. While I haven't crosschecked sources and other works yet, so I can't give it a full-throated endorsement, it is a most intriguing argument,

[La Coliniere]

18. Sounds like very interesting reading.

I recently finished “The Father of Spin” by Larry Tyes. It’s a biography of Edward Bernays, an evil genius if there ever was one. His influence has never waned, and we, as a nation are worse off because of how he used, and taught others how to use, propaganda in advertising and political messaging.

[DJ Synikus Makisimus]

32. Thanks for the reference!

I put it in the queue.

[jimfields33]

2. America is the best country in the world even with our warts.

Just look at our immigration numbers and that alone shows us that many are wanting to come here for the best life possible.

We’ve definitely done some negative things, but I think as a whole we learn from them and try to be better.

[Cirsium]

4. "Best"

People come here out of desperation, not for "the best life possible," rather as the only alternative.

"We've definitely done some negative things? Ya think?

[jimfields33]

6. Are you kidding? They could go to Canada, Europe,

Asia or Australia. But they come here for a better life. They’ve interviewed many and that’s the theme.

[Yavin4]

11. They do go to Canada and Europe far more than the US.

Most who come here do so because of geography.

[Cirsium]

16. Whatever

I have worked with immigrants in agriculture for a long time. You are promoting right wing ideas about this. I find it disgusting, sorry.

[jimfields33]

17. I'm not at all. You don't watch msnbc because

It’s very informative on a vast variety of issues. I learn something everyday. I’m surprised you’d call them right wing. I’ve heard a lot but never that.

[Cirsium]

19. Huh?

MSNBC? What are you talking about?

I didn't call MSNBC right wing.

Immigration is driven for the most part by desperation, not a desire for the good life. It is not a good life or most immigrants.

[tenderfoot]

10. There are a lot of parts of the world that people would like to go rather than the US warts and all.

eom

[choie]

26. We learn from them?

Do we? This past election proves otherwise. And when we do finally recognize "some negative things" it takes years and years. "Some negative things" is a huge understatement by the way. Not only here in this country, but all the horrors that we perpetrated in other countries.

[LearnedHand]

33. Not even close to best

People do come for economic opportunities, but they definitely don't come here for the medical system, the openness toward marginalized groups, or the strong position workers have.

[Dem4life1234]

37. The only

The only reason this country has a high rate of immigration is because it is the easiest developed country to migrate to, let's be honest. Great PR with the Statue of Liberty. America needs immigrant labor.

There are far better developed nations to live under.

One thing about America, people have to fight for their rights to get them.

[The Wandering Harper]

39. reminds me of a joke I heard

person: "so what's your retirement plan?"
struggling American: "go to prison in Norway"

[Hekate]

3. I don't know who the "some here" are, especially since we are currently going thru a seizure of despair

Care to elaborate? Or are you critiquing those holding on to their last shreds of hope?

[Yavin4]

12. I'm critiquing those who think that this nation is better than Trump and MAGA.

It's not. Nor has it ever been.

[Ping Tung]

5. Patriotism is the passion of fools and the most foolish of passions. Arthur Schopenhauer

The vast majority of immigrants from anywhere don't come here in search of the slogans and promises of "freedom for all" or "land of liberty". They come here to make money and buy nice stuff.

My grandmother fled Ireland to avoid poverty and starvation. She didn't find England all that prosperous. So she went to Canada with her 6 kids and had to adopt 2 of them out because my grandfather died in an accident while breaking horses for the Canadian army.

She and her 4 daughters arrived in California in the 20s to steal the jobs of good, patriotic, American housemaids.

I expect that all the newer immigrants came here for the same reasons and will eventually be doing some flag waving and protesting the next influx of poor people.

[msfiddlestix]

8. Yes. and so it has been throughout human "civilization", migration to greener pastures

in times of war or peace, migrating to establish economic security, and in many cases wealth and prosperity. Their "homeland" offering neither economic stability, nor opportunities to prosper.

[malaise]

7. A profound OP

When the Soviet Union collapsed I asked a very close friend if other collapses would follow given the historical timing of so many Western reforms.

[keep_left]

9. That "reversion to the mean" was evident not long after...

...the end of the Cold War. Almost immediately there were attacks on social programs, the safety net, etc. On the far-right, there was endless caterwauling over "collectivism" of one imagined form or another. Moderate reformists like Bill Clinton were caricatured as Politburo members conspiring to make us into a Bolshevik society. And now we have the spectacle of the Trump regime trying to destroy the ACA, a national health plan created by a right-wing "think" tank and championed by Newt Gingrich throughout the '90s.

[alarimer]

13. It has never once lived up to its ideals.

Everything we learned in school was complete bullshit. The American character (or lack thereof) is 100% selfish. In my opinion, the greatest failing is the extreme individualism. We are not a society. We are a collection of individuals who mostly don't give a shit about anyone else buit ourselves/our families.

[DontBelieveEastisEas]

20. I thought the supreme court would protect our individualism; even when the majority voted against us. I thought

all of us believed in a free press, and thought of the majority of journalist as a good thing.

What I learned in school was that if a leader sat quietly for hours while or government was attacked, that leader would be a pariah.

[japple]

35. Well they sure weren't looking out for us when they sided with big money in the

Citizen United decision.

[DontBelieveEastisEas]

38. I did say, "I thought" not "I knew" or "I know". Maybe I could have said, "I thought I knew". I now see that

they can be partisan, they can be abusive to an individual's freedoms, they can be judging from an off-based perception.

[electric_blue68]

21. Sorry, I partly disagree. There's -definitely some- Americans like that; but I've seen Much Kindness over decades from..

strangers.

There're so many stories of strangers pitching in to help others during natural disasters, man made distasters, etc.

You [I have] read about someone in terrible straights, and then you read about all these strangers sending items, or money to help.

For myself, on very, very rare [thank goodness] occasions I've tripped, and fallen on a sidewalk, and people have stopped to help me.

Lastly, I as a born & bred NYC'r, read of after 9-11 there were people who came from other parts of the country (beyond our Tri-State area) to help!

I remember going to 🩷 St John The Divine (Liberal Episcopalian) Cathedral for a post 9-11 event/service, and running into a woman in the gift shop wearing a OHIO 🩷 NYC T-shirt. It was so sweet, and I thanked her.

[alarimer]

34. Sure, individuals can be commendable in looking out for others.

But what I really meant is that we are no longer a society in which the collective good is more important (if it ever was, which is debatable). We focus (even in the policies that Democrats advocate for) on INDIVIDUAL achievement or issues. Why else would the focus be on forgiving student loans rather than creating an education system where student loans were not necessary?

[electric_blue68]

36. Ah, I get it now.

[ThePartyThatListens]

22. You're absolutely right

It's always been an ugly and violent nation

[Meowmee]

23. Yes true, it's

Still a lot better here than in Russia etc. though or it was. Who knows what will happen now.

[electric_blue68]

24. I don't know when* such information was sanitized. At least in NYC in "the 60's" I either learned almost all of this....

in HS school, some from my parents (my mom in particular about racism particularly in The North, not just the South), and some from the news. Sexism?By the news - Betty Friedan, and the contrast of my mom being head draftsman at Hughes Aircraft in California during WWII.
*Probably Pre "the 60's", though maybe "The Beats"? of the 1950's pushed the envelope, too.

While I knew the least about labor I did hear enough to know historically about the Triangle Shirtwaist Fire, and that Companies would often fight against unionization...learned waaaay before Ray-gun's union busting the Air Traffic Controllers.

America has done (and sometimes still does) violence to various groups. Lord knows, what else might be coming next post Noon J20!
I'd say holding ourselves up to be this Great Nation; the shine gets tarnished by our sometimes serious hypocricy!
Other influencial nations have done the same, but touting our greatness exasperates the distance between actual past, or present and our ideals.

Later learning about the Nordic countries in particular was important, seeing things they've done better.

But we've also done good, and great things. Some have fought to make all our citizens first class. We have helped other countries at times as well. We are not the totally selfish nation some would paint us as.

Perhaps, ironically the times I've felt most patriotic is when I've marched, and rallied in DC! I'm not sure why.
But I think it has to do with striving to make my/our Country a better place, and live up to our ideals, and joining in with those of the past, as well.

[Fish700]

25. Cool, America is a shithole and it's no big deal we just lost the election!

I'll sleep a lot better tonight thanks!

[choie]

27. I don't think that's what the OP was implying.

[applegrove]

28. Canada has a dark past too. The past was dark everywhere if

you go back far enough. For sure learn from it and don't breed and grow ignoramuses. And reconciliation is needed in many cases.

[Fish700]

29. There aren't a lot of societies that aren't standing on the bones of the people they wiped out to create it.

[Yavin4]

30. True. But American culture and educational systems sanitizes our dark history.

Which leads to some being shocked about Trump and what may happen in the near future. If you had a real understanding of American history, nothing that has happened should be shocking to you.

[applegrove]

31. Yes. Teach it.