General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsFour States Could Secede From US and Join Canada to Avoid Trump--Democrat
Aprominent Democratic New York State Senator has floated the fanciful proposition that her state and its northeastern neighbors secede from the United States to join Canada to avoid President-elect Donald Trump's return to office.
Liz Krueger, who chairs the New York State Senate Finance Committee, argued that the Empire State, Connecticut, Massachusetts, and Vermont, could all suffer under Trump's new administration.
Citing his proposed crackdown on immigration and promise of mass deportation, the Manhattan Democrat believes liberal and sanctuary states such as New York could be threatened with cuts in the amount of federal funding they receive, a move the incoming leader and his cabinet have suggested, should states oppose new policy measures.
This is not the first time the New York Democrat has offered up a radical and improbable plan to counter Trump's policies, suggesting in September, ahead of his election win, that the bloc of blue states should join Canada.
"I thought I would suggest to Canada that instead of us all trying to illegally cross the border at night without them noticing, which is pretty hard because there's a lot of us, that they should instead agree to let us be the southeast province, a new province of Canada.
"And I offered, even though I hadn't gotten agreement from other states yet, that I thought New York, Connecticut, Massachusetts, Vermont, would combine and be a great new province as the southeast province of Canada," Krueger said in an interview with news site City and State New York.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/four-states-could-secede-from-us-and-join-canada-to-avoid-trump-democrat/ar-AA1uZZO6?ocid=msedgdhp&pc=U531&cvid=1ad0e993a91b4fdd9e37a4a38a23e2fb&ei=23
= new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight:
NoneDon't highlight anything
5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
JI7
(93,615 posts)
YoshidaYui
(45,409 posts)CALIFORNIA, OREGON, WASHINGTON. AND NEVADA..... AND WE can become apart of Canada!
GP6971
(38,013 posts)
quakerboy
(14,868 posts)Month ago I would have said definitely not. Now we are staring down a situation where the end of the usa as a world power, or even as an existing entity is possible.
If trump goes full dictator.. Noone knows for sure what happens next
Bernardo de La Paz
(60,320 posts)United Provinces and States of Canada
... and then there's JayzusLand
ancianita
(43,307 posts)
Dem2theMax
(11,005 posts)He wants borders? Let's give him some borders!
My back isn't so good anymore, but I'm really good with a hammer and nails. Give me the blue paint.
lapfog_1
(31,904 posts)Canada suddenly a world superpower both militarily and economically.
But Canada loses it's cultural identity.
We might all have to learn French too.
I guess we could promise to learn French and learn Canadian history. Adopt their flag and love of hockey... and promise to elect only native born Canadians for like 10 years. We would all be immigrants. The British would love it... I think. Think of the favored trading partnership of once again being part of the British "empire".
Disaffected
(6,401 posts)Last edited Sat Nov 30, 2024, 10:06 PM - Edit history (1)
Most of the country doesn't speak it as it is. I foresee problems though - Quebec would have a shit-fit as the French language would probably not survive long with the vast majority being English speaking (they might even elect to declare independence which would effectively split the new Canada in two unless all the northern border states are included).
In any case Canada would not exist anymore other than possibly in name as the existing population would be overwhelmed by the new (California alone has about Canada's population).
ancianita
(43,307 posts)Last edited Sun Dec 1, 2024, 11:42 AM - Edit history (1)
They've got jobs where they are, and families and churches, etc, etc. These are well off rich states, not hordes of refugees.
arthritisR_US
(7,810 posts)Disaffected
(6,401 posts)What on earth are you talking about??
arthritisR_US
(7,810 posts)provinces and 3 territories are French speaking. I lived in Quebec for 5 years and everyone I encountered spoke English with me as I didn’t know the French language. They didn’t treat me any different than their French Canadian brethren. Myself an Irish Canadian from Alberta was married to a French Canadian from Quebec and his family welcomed me in.
Disaffected
(6,401 posts)"so wrong" about.
róisín_dubh
(12,336 posts)Old school Quebecois are incredibly isolationist. I dated a French Canadian. Lovely guy. His family and friends, all of whom could speak and understand English reasonably well, refused to do so with me because the knew I understood some French.
They made my life miserable.
We split. He married a nice Quebec woman, to his family’s delight.
See how personal experience works?
Still, I’d rather live in Montreal than 90% of the US.
brush
(61,033 posts)so language wouldn't be anymore of a problem as it is now with Quebec being the only French speaking province.
And I'm sure many there are bilinqual with English as a second language.
Disaffected
(6,401 posts)The issue they would likely have is that the proportion of Francophones in the new Canada would be much less than one half of what it is now. Quebec, and the other existing provinces for that matter, would therefore loose a great deal of political clout and, as a result, Quebec's language status would be threatened, at least in their eyes where such concerns govern a good deal of Quebec society.
An example would be the status of French as an official language of Canada. With the inclusion of California for example, there would likely be more Spanish speaking folks in the country than French. What to do then? Make Spanish an official language or remove French as an official language?? The bottom line is that such matters which are relatively inconsequential in the US are very much more important in Canada and especially so Quebec. Hell, Quebec almost split from Canada a few years ago and, as usual, preservation of the French language in Quebec was one of their most pressing underlying concerns.
BTW, if Washington, California, Oregon and Nevada (why Nevada?) were to join Canada, I would expect they would join as separate provinces. Same for the New England states.
Anyhow, fun to speculate about but it ain't never gonna happen...
brush
(61,033 posts)arthritisR_US
(7,810 posts)
Metaphorical
(2,634 posts)Or may actually become Mexico Norte, in effect becoming a part of Mexico. The question is whether the state would be split north and south (making San Jose the southernmost city) at which point it could become part of the Canada/Cascadia region.
NBachers
(19,438 posts)
roamer65
(37,953 posts)We would have to pry loose Northwestern IN, PA and Northern OH.
bamagal62
(4,503 posts)
calimary
(90,017 posts)Here’s lookin’ atcha, red states, and BYE-BYE!!!
usonian
(25,314 posts)United States of North America.
At last count (https://www.countries-ofthe-world.com/countries-of-north-america.html)
Now, let’s see those White Christian “Nationalists” outvote the combined population of the
United States of North America!
Put some maple syrup on my churros!
As I light up a nice Cuban cigar. WAIT I forgot about 
Jamaica!
Trueblue1968
(19,251 posts)
OnionPatch
(6,328 posts)I hope it happens someday. Maybe at least my descendants can escape the scourge of the American right wing.
Disaffected
(6,401 posts)
Stargazer99
(3,517 posts)
marble falls
(71,919 posts)... line going up the Mississippi.
JoseBalow
(9,488 posts)
Polybius
(21,900 posts)October 20, 2025 is the election, and Trudeau is highly unlikely to receive a 4th term.
J_William_Ryan
(3,496 posts)No, they couldn’t – even if they wanted to.
Secession is unconstitutional.
soandso
(1,631 posts)There was a court decision that ruled it unconstitutional but it's not in the constitution. Thomas Jefferson supported the right to secession believing the Union was a voluntary associated and that force was counter to the principals of freedom. Nevertheless, I would say it's de facto nearly impossible and would require a constitutional convention to avoid war.
Bernardo de La Paz
(60,320 posts)They'd be happy to re-introduce the 3/5 of a person: the women of Jayzusland.
bamagal62
(4,503 posts)Then we’re free to do so as well???
brush
(61,033 posts)roamer65
(37,953 posts)If the compact is broken, blue states are not bound by it.
quakerboy
(14,868 posts)Is not impossible.
If trump just decides constitution is no longer applicable, who knows what happens.
That said.. does Canada really want to integrate a bunch of smelly former Americans who will want to vote and will drastically outnumber the original canadians?
Disaffected
(6,401 posts)as "Canada" wouldn't exist any more.
LastLiberal in PalmSprings
(13,291 posts)If RedLand still wants to use the military bases here, let them lease them.
wnylib
(26,009 posts)There are a LOT of them.
quakerboy
(14,868 posts)arthritisR_US
(7,810 posts)YoshidaYui
(45,409 posts)SO were COMMUNISTS NOW??? HAHAHAHAHA
quakerboy
(14,868 posts)My observation is US liberals tend to be a bit conservative, to have internalized a hefty dose of what I perceive as a baked in American libertianism, as compared with liberals from most democracies.
arthritisR_US
(7,810 posts)
Mme. Defarge
(9,019 posts)would become part of Idaho.
ancianita
(43,307 posts)Last edited Sun Dec 1, 2024, 12:04 PM - Edit history (1)
Polybius
(21,900 posts)"It may be illegal now, but as soon as they secede, it becomes legal."
Meaning that it was once illegal for us to secede from England, but it became legal the moment we won.
ForgedCrank
(3,096 posts)we were supposed to learn from history. Such talk and actions didn't work out so well for those who called themselves Confederates.
lapfog_1
(31,904 posts)I think most people of the red states would say "good riddance"
DetroitLegalBeagle
(2,504 posts)No state or states are seceding as long as the Federal government and federal military exist. Red states would probably volunteer their National Guard to invade and occupy blue states.
And states aren't even politically homogeneous enough to secede. It wouldn't be New York state seceding, it would be NYC, minus Staten Island, some NYC suburbs, and Albany, Buffalo, Syracuse, and Rochester. The red areas would likely refuse to be part of any secession.
Polybius
(21,900 posts)Much easier for them to win future national elections.
ForgedCrank
(3,096 posts)is "meal team 6" to you?
lapfog_1
(31,904 posts)get the children... the military?
And do you think the military will obey orders from Trump to attack the blue states?
In this second civil war... I suspect it will be a cold war. Neither military would be eager to take on the other. Not to mention that unlike the first civil war where Lincoln and the then northern states see this as a moral issue ( to end slavery ), the new civil war will not have the current red states attack us over 'trans rights'' or something. We have no issue with the red states so long as they leave us alone... and allow like minded citizens to immigrate to the new Canada freely.
The ones that will be rabid to "kill me some of those libtard communists" are, in fact, the Meal Team Six militias.
We will send some real marines from Camp Pendleton and that will end the problem
Marine Corps Base Camp Pendleton in San Diego County, California has over 42,000 active duty military personnel.
ForgedCrank
(3,096 posts)appear to be making assumptions and deceptive addendum to my point. I'd really appreciate it if you didn't do that.
Those who attempt to break away from the republic will face the force of the US military, just like the last time, and it would end just like last time. Red and blue won't matter. The US military is a tool of the United States of America (note the United part). But I think you knew that already.
So if you think the US military is meal team 6, maybe try your luck. I certainly wouldn't recommend it, but I'll place my bets for sure.
lapfog_1
(31,904 posts)Perhaps you forget that the command of the northern armies was offered to one General Robert E. Lee.
He turned it down to accept a similar commission from Jefferson Davis.
The Army and some of the Navy split between north and south. The military, especially the senior command, will not simply obey President Trump. Besides, Trump is unlikely oppose a division of the country.
You need to read more history. YOUR assumptions about what would happen with the military is also totally unfounded.
Both of us do not know exactly what would happen. But if history is any guide, it will not be a fight ( if there is one ) between us poor civilians and the US unified military.
ForgedCrank
(3,096 posts)I'm not in the mood for moving goalposts today.
Have a fun weekend, but i'm done here
DetroitLegalBeagle
(2,504 posts)Loyalty in the military is to the country, not the states now. The vast majority of soldiers, much like the vast majority of the civilian population, don't care all too much about their state beyond silly rivalries, which is primarily centered around college football. Its where they live and grew up but loyalty to it is seen as silly as loyalty to whatever county or city you live in as well. You are more likely to see sports team flag out in front of someone's house then a state flag. You will pretty much always see a US flag instead of any other. Plus Federal military bases are full of military personnel that are from other states. Thinking that everyone on base is going to suddenly be cool with whatever state they are in seceding is silly. As its been stated before by multiple posters, the idea that entire states would even be on the same page on secession is unrealistic. There is a higher likelihood that a states National Guard would split over secession, not the Federal military.
brush
(61,033 posts)so why would the states that want to leave be bound by it?
No civil war necessary. Red states have many military bases already...many resisting the change from being named after confederate generals.
ForgedCrank
(3,096 posts)tell us how jackass will be able to "suspend the constitution".
Or should I just spill the beans and tell you that he can't, nor will it happen.
Hard to believe the stuff I read around here now, it didn't used to be like this.
brush
(61,033 posts)can declare anything he likes as an official act.
Have you not heard?
And what's to stop the dictator from suspending the Constitution as an official act?
Did you not know that trump's role modet Hitler did the same to the German Constitution?
Some so suffer from naivete.
Meowmee
(9,212 posts)But it will never happen for many reasons.
thinkingagain
(1,350 posts)But if Canada offered a few $ for the west and east coast states.
I’m sure trump would sell them. 😀
Bernardo de La Paz
(60,320 posts)DENVERPOPS
(13,003 posts)by allowing Putin to take back Alaska..............
dsc
(53,396 posts)particular the western states. Canada only has a bit over 30 million people. NYS has close to 20 million, Mass has 7 million, and Conn has over 3. No way Canada would add that many people and thus run the risk of overwhelming their own population. California alone has more people than Canada.
ancianita
(43,307 posts)where their jobs are -- and there's freedom of movement. Lots of Canadians and Americans go back and forth daily as it is. More win-win, as Canada assumes the financial capital of the world, New York, with all it's global fintech; free flow of goods, education, health and human services, with a lot of added law enforcement; and Washington DC's chased out judicial, national security, and geopolitical expertise; with no oppression from the bomb threatening kleptocracy to the south.
Benefits that make it a great idea, really, no matter the objections. Why? Because things happen when nations decide they happen.
Don't think it can't happen just because it hasn't happened yet. We've been making that very mistake with the trumputin criminal syndicates for years.
intelpug
(159 posts)Dream on
roamer65
(37,953 posts)But it would create a land bridge from Ontario eastward to the maritime provinces….bypassing QUEBEC.
ancianita
(43,307 posts)that the entire Northeast is full of Canadians and Americans of Canadian background. My father's side comes from Quebec, and when I think of French Canadians, I'm of the opinion that we shouldn't consider that province something to "bypass." The French, including French Canadians, have been our allies since before the American Revolution, so we should honor their loyalty to our democracy.
Trudeau is smart to meet with Trump in person, and remind him of the history of business between our two countries; Trump will behave better toward Canada because of Trudeau's visit.
I realize that secession is the problem with this idea, but the idea is still a creative one -- and any watered down move to "compact" with Canada wouldn't lessen our rights; furthermore, imo, any kind of continued business relationship by our coastal states with Canada can forestall and probably mitigate the bad political & economic abuse Trump will mete out toward blue states in general.
Bernardo de La Paz
(60,320 posts)I've lived in both California and Canada and I think the fusion of the values and intelligence and culture and drive of both places would be a tremendous dynamo.
But it is only a dream.
Dem2theMax
(11,005 posts)I don't think Canada would mind taking us in.
Oh Canada, are you listening? 
BlueTsunami2018
(4,988 posts)No one is succeeding. Stop this nonsense.
Bernardo de La Paz
(60,320 posts)ancianita
(43,307 posts)dchill
(42,660 posts)Omaha Steve
(109,228 posts)Ain't going to happen.
ancianita
(43,307 posts)Let the trump states finance their own social security -- and then watch how they lose it. If we stay, they'll just drag the richer states down with them. We blue staters have been subsidizing the benefits that red states have always been loathe to provide, from social security to medicaid to covid shots to abortion rights.
lapfog_1
(31,904 posts)we are losing it already. That is what 2025 is all about. Listen to the George Carlin comedy rant "It's a big club and YOU ain't in it" Lot of truth there.
ancianita
(43,307 posts)with more respect. He lacks respect for the states that have the brains of the nation on those coasts, and we know how to make it work for Canada as well as for the best states in this country. Being two new provinces of Canada would be a win-win. Let them have their oligarchs, bitcoin economy and slave wages and all the no-benefits of a shithole dictatorship, while we preserve the financial stability of the West.
oasis
(53,693 posts)hillbillies would be pouring over the border looking for employment.
lapfog_1
(31,904 posts)deport everyone with a southern accent!
bamagal62
(4,503 posts)That accent is not easily lost! Except for a brief 3 years stint in Atlanta, I haven’t lived in the south since 1992. I still have my southern accent.
CaptainTruth
(8,200 posts)See Texas v. White (1869).
The US Constitution doesn't provide any way for a state to secede, which is why the Texas v. White ruling said that none of the southern states actually seceded in the Civil War, because there is no Constitutional way for them to do so.
States can talk about it, but that doesn't make it Constitutionally valid.
lapfog_1
(31,904 posts)ancianita
(43,307 posts)For a change, make the confederate secessionist mindset see whether they can take that free speech as well as they like to dish it out.
So indeed give them something to talk about. This NY Democrat is onto something.
Kaleva
(40,365 posts)ancianita
(43,307 posts)We make them think we're entertaining the idea, then let them sort it out. Maybe they'll do enough reading to learn something.
The first rule of resisting tyranny: Do not obey in advance.
Kaleva
(40,365 posts)"Article I Legislative Branch
Section 10 Powers Denied States"
https://constitution.congress.gov/browse/article-1/section-10/
Crowman2009
(3,524 posts)To which the work to achieve this would be a total waste of time.
DetroitLegalBeagle
(2,504 posts)Unless things change up there before their next election, Trudeau and the Liberals are toast. Last polling I saw had the Conservatives up 18-19pts over the Liberals. Would be something like a 100 seat gain for the Conservatives in Parliament.
quakerboy
(14,868 posts)If any US states were to be able to split off and were accepted into Canada, it would change the voting demographics of Canada significantly. Even a "small" state like Washington would be a 20% increase in population for the country, and would result in a tilt. If a larger state like California or NY were to go, that would be even more significant.
arthritisR_US
(7,810 posts)Asa13
(43 posts)Last edited Sat Nov 30, 2024, 02:04 AM - Edit history (1)
Just saying dusting off the threats the otherside used and got mocked for and giving them a Democratic face lift doesn't make the idea any less dumb
ancianita
(43,307 posts)It's an IDEA. Something shocking to let them know they aren't the only ones to define "alternative" structure.
These states, in fact, engage in international commerce, so this idea -- call it anything but secession -- isn't really a stretch at all.
Asa13
(43 posts)No they said it was for economic and political self defense reasons also. There really is no difference all I've been seeing in this board is the same shit the right spent four years whining about repacked with a liberal packaging instead of the maga one it previously came with. Secession isn't an option no the election wasn't stolen due to electronic tampering.
Now let's figure out what went wrong come back and fight like hell.
IbogaProject
(5,913 posts)Canada is still tied to the UK, if not formally the Crown Corporation owns 20-25% of Canada's economy and might not want more citizens involved. I'm ok though doubtful of the idea.
Disaffected
(6,401 posts)In practicality, there would be no UK issues.
canetoad
(20,769 posts)The Commonwealth lets them back in.
LeftInTX
(34,289 posts)
Retrograde
(11,419 posts)New York, Connecticut, Massachusetts and Vermont could make a plausible country on their own
displacedvermoter
(4,500 posts)Just asking
Retrograde
(11,419 posts)they picked the states
choie
(6,905 posts)and she rocks. Of course, this isn't likely to ever happen, but she gets the seriousness of the danger that trump poses. She's also quite the advocate for older adults and their needs. Love her!
Kaleva
(40,365 posts)SCantiGOP
(14,719 posts)You’ve left me stuck in the midst of the Red Regime.
And I’ve got grandkids here, so I can’t leave.
onenote
(46,140 posts)Oh, wait. They can't. And neither "could" four states secede from the US and join Canada.
This kind of shit is beyond stupid.
Iggo
(49,927 posts)DJ Synikus Makisimus
(1,438 posts)He could imprison all "traitors" (which the MAGAts would misspell as "traders"
all over the country. That would be Democrats (mostly) and others to their left.
Don't get me wrong, I love the idea of proposals that take things to ridiculous extremes if they upset MAGAts. And it would be nice for those folks to have a decent national health care system. The problem is, of course, why would Canada want a bunch of Americans coming in and messing up their lovely country? I mean, no country on earth wants lots of Americans. They'll sometimes suffer a few wealthy ones. Americans shit on local traditions, demand rights that don't exist, and think their monolingual selves know everything - they have no respect. I mean, the U.S. is the country that elected Trump. TWICE.
Oh, and it's been tried. That's what The U.S. Invasion of Canada (the War of 1812) was about, yes? (British) Canada won that time.
Me, I'm hoping a revolt that gives independence to Hawai'i and captures all U.S. military equipment there, then for the Royal Forces of the Kingdom of Hawai'i to invade the west coast and establish "protectorates" over WA, OR, CA, NV, NM and CO, and conquer the southern third of AZ (including Tucson) to keep things contiguous. They would be ruled by a viceroy resident in Crown Colony of the Ninth Island (Clark County, NV).
cstanleytech
(28,471 posts)
C Moon
(13,643 posts)H2O Man
(79,048 posts)I think that she was the one who had her first election stolen from her, when ballots for her were hidden in the Board of Elections in an air duct. She would win the next election, and I think that was around the time the previously hidden ballots were found. Due to this, I would suggest that she just might have been speaking tongue-firmly-in-cheek, commenting on her opinion of what sane people think and feel at this time. But it may be more entertaining to virtue signal by denouncing her for this by noting it won't happen.
no_hypocrisy
(54,906 posts)Yankees in Canada.
Macy's Thanksgiving Parade in Canada.
The Hamptons in Canada.
FBaggins
(28,706 posts)She’s nuts if she thinks that fewer than 6% of the voters in NY oppose Trump enough to vote against him… but not enough to have the state secede.
comradebillyboy
(10,955 posts)won't support it and talking about it makes Dems look weak and cowardly. I'd be hard pressed to think of a worse solution to our problems.
intheflow
(30,179 posts)I mean, I'm a librarian in Mass and I wholly expect our budget to plummet and layoffs to happen when Trump decides to stop funding the Institute of Museum and Library Services. If only we could join Canada!
LoveSucky
(53 posts)How the hell are they doing to join Canada?🤣🤣
Fish700
(148 posts)And the housing market is much worse than the US (where I can't afford to buy even though I make triple the local income.)
Runningdawg
(4,664 posts)roamer65
(37,953 posts)Secession movements would start to form if Dump stole the election and that CA, OR, WA, NY and New England would be the first in line for it.
bucolic_frolic
(55,136 posts)Imagine the wrangling over state and federal debt, social spending. Not going to happen.
brush
(61,033 posts)and they're all in the Pacific time zone. And I'm in Vegas.
And if the Great Lakes states come in as most border Canada, Canada would be quite a power with 3 princes added...not to mention 12 blue states subtracted from trump's dictatorship.
How would the dictator make up all that money coming from those blue states that contribute to the treasury to subsidize the poor red states.
Blaukraut
(5,998 posts)What is your solution? Those of us in reliably blue states are getting tired of being dragged down by the red states and having their ideas of government and values attempted to be forced on us. Yes, many liberals are stranded in red states. It sucks, and I wish there were enough of you to turn those states blue. But there aren't. As an example: Every time it seems like Texas might finally see the light and elect Democrats, it'd like Lucy with the football.
As I said: I live in a blue state and I'm sick of being screwed over election after election. At some point we need to admit that we as a country have irreconcilable differences. Is Mississippi ever going to see eye to eye with Massachusetts? I live in MA. I do NOT want to live in a state like MS. But it really seems like their way of life is ever closer to being forced on me on a federal level, because red states have more electoral power than blue states. It's scary.
Meowmee
(9,212 posts)and psycho will be impeached and so on... we just have to keep fighting.. at what point do you need to face reality that this is never going to end well.
Mostly what they have is ridicule for anyone who discusses it. I for one am sick to death of the whole never ending situation of being controlled by a bunch of psychos, and mostly by the electoral college etc. Literally now more than ever, it's at the point where the whole country will likely collapse now due to all of this and allowing what has happened. There is always some catch 22 for why no one was apparently able to stop this.
LeftInTX
(34,289 posts)And they fantasize about Texas leaving. Does it happen??? The bill never gets a hearing, yet DU has visions of Texas leaving.
Polybius
(21,900 posts)Start fresh if you're going to leave.
Fish700
(148 posts)Blue_Tires
(57,596 posts)Cirsium
(3,943 posts)Physically speaking, we cannot separate. We cannot remove our respective sections from each other, nor build an impassable wall between them. A husband and wife may be divorced, and go out of the presence and beyond the reach of each other; but the different parts of our country cannot do this. They cannot but remain face to face, and intercourse, either amicable or hostile, must continue between them. Is it possible, then, to make that intercourse more advantageous or more satisfactory after separation than before? Can aliens make treaties easier than friends can make laws? Can treaties be more faithfully enforced between aliens than laws can among friends? Suppose you go to war, you cannot fight always; and when, after much loss on both sides, and no gain on either, you cease fighting, the identical old questions as to terms of intercourse are again upon you.
Abraham Lincoln
March 4, 1861
First Inaugural Address