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BeyondGeography

(40,144 posts)
Tue Dec 3, 2024, 02:05 AM Dec 3

Josh Marshall/TPM: Biden learned the right lesson: no one gives a fuck about norms.

Over the past couple weeks, the thought of President Biden pardoning his son entered my head a few times. I tossed it around: good or bad idea? I could see it both ways. I still can. But I am fine with his decision. I’m glad he did it. Biden learned the right lesson: no one gives a fuck about norms. It’s unquestionably true that Hunter Biden wouldn’t be in this position if not for his dad. That’s basically the justification Biden gave. And he’s right. It may sound angry or cynical to say “no one gives a fuck.” But I mean it both in a general way and in this particular way: the reason for Biden not to do this was to allow his son to remain collateral damage of the GOP war against his presidency and to leave him in the hands of the Trump DOJ for at least the next four years all to make a point of principle about being better, different, more righteous, more norm-honoring than Donald Trump.

Truly. No one gives a fuck. If anything, that logic I just laid out sounds like one of those fastidious, hyper-process-oriented and baroque bits of reasoning that have of late left Democrats mesmerized while the real world is passing them by.

Either you know the difference or you don’t. This doesn’t shift the balance in anyone’s head.

https://talkingpointsmemo.com/edblog/the-pardon

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Josh Marshall/TPM: Biden learned the right lesson: no one gives a fuck about norms. (Original Post) BeyondGeography Dec 3 OP
Unfortunately four years too late to save the country from TCF. RockRaven Dec 3 #1
Yeah! Get with the New Normal.. No one Gives a Fuck. Cha Dec 3 #2
He needs to pardon every Federal investigator Old Crank Dec 3 #3
This pardon is appropriate av8rdave Dec 3 #4
Joe Biden was right. BlueCheeseAgain Dec 3 #5
No, as the corporate media has been telling us for 30 years, SocialDemocrat61 Dec 3 #6
There are so many ways that the pardon could be seen as right or wrong karynnj Dec 3 #7
Exactly right Prairie Gates Dec 3 #8
This is the money line in Marshall's argument peggysue2 Dec 3 #9

Old Crank

(5,197 posts)
3. He needs to pardon every Federal investigator
Tue Dec 3, 2024, 03:36 AM
Dec 3

And layer working against tbe criminal orange blob before he leaves. Sign the papers as he leaves the Whitehouse to go to the inauguration.
A parting shot to the manure bag.

av8rdave

(10,621 posts)
4. This pardon is appropriate
Tue Dec 3, 2024, 10:35 AM
Dec 3

trump and its people have made it abundantly clear that the main focus of its administration will be retribution and vindictiveness. President Biden is morally obligated to do all he can to protect those who will be on trump’s list.

karynnj

(60,091 posts)
7. There are so many ways that the pardon could be seen as right or wrong
Tue Dec 3, 2024, 11:13 AM
Dec 3

The media and some Democrats are comparing this to the strictest version of the PreTrump norm. They ignore that Trump's pardons were not the first to not have followed any normal process.

Take one example, GHWB pardoned the people involved in Iran Contra. What they and probably GHWB did was of far greater importance than Hunter's tax avoidance and lying on an application to get a gun. In an action meaning we were providing weapons to both sides of the Iraq/Iran war, they secretly sold American weapons to Iran, although we publicly supported Iraq and then used that money to fund the right wing Contras in Nicaragua. Funding the Contras was against legislation passed by Congress. Clearly a bigger deal than Hunter's transgressions. Not to mention, without the pardons, GHWB might have at least faced questioning in their trials.

Many articles have mentioned Biden's legacy, but was there any mention at all of Iran/Contra or those pardons when he died? For those saying that Hunter never had to serve a day in prison, the same was true for some of these people.

To mention the obvious, Trump pardoned Manaford, Roger Stone, Steve Bannon, and many others ... was himself indicted and convicted of 34 felonies ... and the country reelected him.

On big decisions, decades ago, I was advised a good idea was to not just look at pros and cons, but to consider the worst case scenario of either path and how I would feel if it came to pass. Here the worst case scenario of not pardoning is very obvious - his son could be destroyed. Hunter is a very vulnerable person, who could still fail, but can you imagine Joe Biden's guilt if he didn't pardon him and he got a long prison term and he killed himself?

I may be wrong, but I think there is more negative media and from the party of the President criticism of Biden's pardon than of either Bush's or Trump's. Could it be that people who hold themselves to higher standards (as Biden has) are criticized more in the rare instances where they don't live up to that standard?

Prairie Gates

(3,977 posts)
8. Exactly right
Tue Dec 3, 2024, 11:26 AM
Dec 3

You can't be the unilateral defender of norms. Like, by definition. A norm is a norm only if it is held to universally, or close to it. If it is held to by only a small number or one group, it ceases to function as a norm at all, and it should not be normative for that reason. Of course, it's chaos and bad to live in a world without norms, as we will no doubt find out (if we haven't been finding out), but that's the current environment. A unilateral norm is no norm at all.

peggysue2

(11,580 posts)
9. This is the money line in Marshall's argument
Tue Dec 3, 2024, 11:54 AM
Dec 3
If anything, that logic I just laid out sounds like one of those fastidious, hyper-process-oriented and baroque bits of reasoning that have of late left Democrats mesmerized while the real world is passing them by.

Whether we like it or not, I think this is quite true. Republicans are fighting under different rules/norms altogether, as in none at all beyond burning the house down. Those of us who want to preserve the Republic are at a distinct disadvantage. Do we think fastidiously following norms will shame the GOP or convince MAGAs to put down their torches? Or that Democrats slamming Joe Biden for pardoning Hunter makes any sense in face of the criminal network soon to take power?

No.

These crackpots and thieves are ready to set the house aflame with non-believers in it. They'll laugh with glee as they do it. In fact, I read the other day that President Biden following the traditional transition protocol gave the Trumpers a grand chuckle, as if the 'old man' didn't realize (in his ongoing stupor) what was coming.

We need a better strategy. Self-righteousness will not win the day.
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