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[Chin music]

This message was self-deleted by its author (Chin music) on Mon Dec 9, 2024, 05:05 AM. When the original post in a discussion thread is self-deleted, the entire discussion thread is automatically locked so new replies cannot be posted.

[elleng]

1. No, won't happen.

Congressional ELECTIONS in 2 years, REMEMBER!!!

[LT Barclay]

47. But no leader, no organized resistance. What's next? I'm frustrated that no one is stepping up.

[LT Barclay]

61. I agree with everything you say and dread the assault on environmental regulations, public lands and endangered species

that is going to come.
But I can't lose my home to march. Calling public officials doesn't do any good.

I've had an idea, but it gains no traction. I've seen people talk about reducing spending, but even if it is big enough to notice, it will just be taken as an economic downturn.
I think that targeted, rolling boycotts is a way to make an impact. Companies measure themselves on weekly, monthly and quarterly targets. If we pick a company, don't buy from them for a few months, then they will beg for mercy. For example, if we have to drive, we have to buy gas, but if everyone avoided Shell for a quarter, they'd notice. At the same time if we hit a auto company. I think that just delaying purchases, even if it is just dedicated democratic voters, would have an impact.

[LT Barclay]

81. Those actions are at government level. I believe that we have no recourse there. I'm seeking grassroots action and

leadership.

[kerry-is-my-prez]

95. And how are we going to stop this? Half of the people who bothered to vote, voted for him.

They are still behind him. The only way I know to make this stuff into a liability is by getting the news out so Republicans and Independents start to get pissed. If they got away with getting rid of abortion so easily, without any real consequences (white women still voted for Republicans and Trump). There were no large scale protests. I said a while back that they only way they can get a big uprising is if they take away our tv and internet. People are just too complacent.

[Crunchy Frog]

80. Our society is nowhere near that organized.

We're not a Ukraine, Georgia (Republic) or Romania.

[MadameButterfly]

67. The end of SS and Medicaire would incite a war

Trump could be on a plane like Assad
If he wants the military to defend him he'll have to convince them he isn't after their retirement too
The test will be are Republicans in Congress more afraid of Trump--or the voters if they take SS away? I fear the answer since they've bee trying to eliminate SS for years. But once the dog catches the car....
What's in it for Republicans? A third of the country desperate, angry, on the streets... half of them Trump voters. Plus the depression that follows the mass loss in buying force while also balancing run-away inflation...Do they think they'll be richer? Does Trump really have to power to stay if he does that? Will they use the 25th ammendment? Will the cult follow the usurpers? Will Trump turn on Elon looking for someone to blame? or the base wanting to blame anyone but Trump?

Anything can happen.

[MadameButterfly]

84. All true. But most of his voters still think he's for the working people and good for the economy

They voted for lower egg prices. If their livelihoods, or that of their parents is taken away, the egg problem will seem quaint.
I don't think we can act while half the country still thinks his election is a good thing. Things need to go bad. Very bad. Unfortunately for those of us who knew better. Necassary for the Trump voters to get their heads out of the sand.

[MadameButterfly]

91. It doesn't make sense but it seems he won over enough

of the hispanic vote with RW Spanish speaking radio stations, benefitted from a Muskified twitter, Russian interference, Fox as usual, and a series of bomb threats across Democratic districts in the swing states. His ads were all lies. It was enough. In a healthy media environment and no voter suppression, it wouldn't even have been close.

[ariadne0614]

103. Let's not forget the avalanche of audits and lawsuits and incessant braying about "Stop the Steal!"

To this day, they refuse to admit Biden won. At this point, demands for swing state audits would produce derisive accusations that we are nothing but vengeful Sore Losers by daring to question their brazen lying, cheating, and stealing this time around.

Putin probably assured them we would be cowed into submission, not wanting to be like them. Our respect for democracy, rule of law, and 249 years of proud tradition makes it hard to fathom their treachery. In a way, I guess that makes us sitting ducks.

[MadameButterfly]

105. David Plouffe has come out and said that internal polling in the Harris campaign

had her behind the whole time. As astounding and depressing as this is, I no longer believe the chicanery was at the voting booth.
Yes they cheated--by lying to low information voters and brainwashing their cult. Yes they purged voter rolls and made it harder for Dems to vote. And Citizens United allowed Bilionaires to flood Trump's campaign with money when fundraising from voters wouldn't have kept him afloat. It was hardly a level playing field. But we wouldn't have found any foul play in the voting machines or vote count to turn around an election.

We have to go much deeper:
How can a demagogue fool half the voters?
Why do people think a businessman with a trail of bankruptcies is good for the economy?
How do you combat fear of people who are different as the bogeyman for people's problems?
How do we give hope to people voting out of anger?
How do we teach critical thinking to people who will blame the president for their economic problems even if caused by Congress or a previous administration?
How do we teach people to actually vote for their economic best interests?
How do we teach people to get their facts from real news sources and not their bubble?

This election shouldn't have been close. It shouldn't have been stealable.

[Kid Berwyn]

108. Political Malpractice

Plouffe and Company failed to make it good vs evil.

Me, I’d have gone with Patriot with integrity vs Putin’s puppet-traitor-convict-madman.

[MadameButterfly]

137. Unfortunately no mechanism for a pause injunction

Last edited Sun Dec 8, 2024, 11:55 PM - Edit history (1)

Irreparable harm will happen. At least to a lot of people. Hoping there will be some repair someday for the country and the planet, but who knows when.

The irreparable harm is what will swing the pendulum back. No avoiding it. If things go well, we'll have Trump forever.

[MadameButterfly]

140. That was a typo. But I was quoting you

pause/injunction

[Walleye]

101. From now on, it's the Republican economy, the Republican government, not the United States government

Every time there is bad, economic news, which there will be, we call it the Republican economy, Trump’s economy. We have to get single-minded I guess.

[orangecrush]

62. Very optimistic

[orangecrush]

121. Happy Holidays to you!

[Cirsium]

72. Elections are an effect

Elections are an effect, not a cause of social change.

[elleng]

75. Right, and after 2 years of tmp/maga bull shit, electorate will DEMAND change, imo.

[Cirsium]

123. Possibly

I think it is possible. Every day that goes by the right wingers are chipping away at the foundations. The opposition is divided, in denial, and burned out. Democrats normalizing MAGA, as Fetterman and Clyburn have done, doesn't help.

[BlueWaveNeverEnd]

98. they also know they only have 2 years and will make the most of those 2 years

[Hotler]

115. We had our last election. nt

[Hotler]

118. Thank you. Happy Holidays to you also. nt

[Patton French]

2. Yes.

Stand up.

[MadameButterfly]

71. I let that go after Plouffe came out saying that internal polling

in the Harris campaign showed her to be behind the whole time.
Amazing that she was so brave in the face of it. Amazing that public polls favored us, not Trump. But I believe Plouffe. We have to move on from false vote counting to how so many people were duped. People did not vote to have their Social Security cut, they were misinformed. We have to fix that.

[vapor2]

4. WOW!! This is exactly how I feel

but couldn't quite put it into so many words. However, just read where Murdoch is pissed with trump's transition shit show. I keep hoping for someone to save us all.

[MadameButterfly]

76. It is ironic that we are handing over power while we command the military

to someone who will use the military to terrorize and never hand power back

But it's not in our nature to do what we are condemning him for threatening to do. We can't arrest him for doing something he hasn't done yet, and once he's done it we won't have the power to stop him. We can't decide our coup is better than his coup (though it certainly would be). We can't win at his game, because it would admit defeat of the very system we are trying to uphold. it would at that point be only a military struggle, with no hope of establishing democracy as the way forward.

So we proceed in the ephemeral hope that the rules of democracy will somehow be enforced, that demands of the people, once the truth and consequences are known, will prevail, that our system and our educated population will withstand the challenges ahead of us.

[MadameButterfly]

85. You are right. He has been doing the equivalent of bomb threats for a while

But how do you prosecute when half the people don't perceive the threat, including the majority of SCOTUS? How do you make the case for a military intervention?

[bdamomma]

24. We are the only ones to

save ourselves. Be vigilant. Learn from other countries who have been through the same thing. Very recently, South Korea for instance. Also the Philippines. Read Timothy Snyder's, On Tyranny (126 pages).

[rampartd]

5. "it is only a class war when we fight back" reich

they intend on looting it all.

[onenote]

9. What "petition" do you think could be filed?

I'm guessing you have no legal training.

[rampartd]

10. if we're waiting for garland we deserve whatever happens to us

[Fiendish Thingy]

22. Your bringing up a Constitutional Convention shows you don't know what you're talking about.

Constitutional Convention is a RW tool to implement Christian nationalism - whatever you imagine the process and outcome would be, isn’t based in reality.

Go form your own private militia, and go fight your “war” - just don’t expect the rest of us to jump on your bandwagon.

[onenote]

25. +1

[stopdiggin]

50. +2. tired of this rambling nonsense. -(nt)-

[ancianita]

35. So why not

look up what Garland's done? Why do so many ask what's being done, but don't even try justice.gov related links? Why is that?


Task Force KleptoCapture will be run out of the Office of the Deputy Attorney General and staffed with prosecutors, agents, analysts, and professional staff across the Department who are experts in sanctions and export control enforcement, anticorruption, asset forfeiture, anti-money laundering, tax enforcement, national security investigations, and foreign evidence collection. It will leverage all the Department’s tools and authorities against efforts to evade or undermine the economic actions taken by the U.S. government in response to Russian military aggression. The mission of the Task Force will include:

-- Investigating and prosecuting violations of new and future sanctions imposed in response to the Ukraine invasion, as well as sanctions imposed for prior instances of Russian aggression and corruption;
-- Combating unlawful efforts to undermine restrictions taken against Russian financial institutions, including the prosecution of those who try to evade know-your-customer and anti-money laundering measures;
-- Targeting efforts to use cryptocurrency to evade U.S. sanctions, launder proceeds of foreign corruption, or evade U.S. responses to Russian military aggression; and
-- Using civil and criminal asset forfeiture authorities to seize assets belonging to sanctioned individuals or assets identified as the proceeds of unlawful conduct.

The Task Force will be fully empowered to use the most cutting-edge investigative techniques — including data analytics, cryptocurrency tracing, foreign intelligence sources, and information from financial regulators and private sector partners — to identify sanctions evasion and related criminal misconduct.

Arrests and prosecution will be sought when supported by the facts and the law. Even if defendants cannot be immediately detained, asset seizures and civil forfeitures of unlawful proceeds — including personal real estate, financial, and commercial assets — will be used to deny resources that enable Russian aggression. Where appropriate, information gathered through Task Force investigations will be shared with interagency and foreign partners to augment the identification of assets that are covered by the sanctions and new economic countermeasures.

Task Force KleptoCapture will complement the work of the transatlantic task force announced by the President and leaders of the European Commission, France, Germany, Italy, the United Kingdom, and Canada on Feb. 26, which has a mission to identify and seize the assets of sanctioned individuals and companies around the world.

Task Force KleptoCapture will be led by a veteran corruption prosecutor assigned to the Deputy Attorney General’s Office from the U.S. Attorney’s Office for the Southern District of New York. This prosecutor has a long and successful track record of investigating Russian organized crime and recovering illicit assets. The Task Force leadership will include Deputy Directors from both the National Security and Criminal Divisions, and more than a dozen attorneys from these divisions, as well as the Tax Division, Civil Division, and U.S. Attorneys’ Offices across the country.

The Task Force will include agents and analysts from numerous law enforcement agencies, including the FBI; U.S. Marshals Service, U.S. Secret Service; Department of Homeland Security–Homeland Security Investigations; IRS–Criminal Investigation; and the U.S. Postal Inspection Service.

The Task Force is authorized to investigate and prosecute any criminal offense related to its mission, including conspiracy to defraud the United States by interfering in and obstructing lawful government functions; money laundering; false statements to a financial institution; bank fraud; and various tax offenses. The maximum penalty under several of these authorities is 20 years in prison.

https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/attorney-general-merrick-b-garland-announces-launch-task-force-kleptocapture

[ancianita]

38. I hear you.

But feeling isn't a war strategy. Knowing laws that give power to good and bad presidents helps with feeling. Like this kind of stuff...

https://www.foley.com/insights/publications/2022/03/the-power-tria-if-russia-state-sponsor-terrorism/

...the United States may name a country as a “state sponsor of terrorism.”1 While the move is rare, it is not unprecedented. The United States currently has designated Cuba, North Korea, Iran, and Syria as state sponsors of terrorism.2 To designate a country, the Secretary of State has to determine that the nation’s government “has repeatedly provided support for acts of international terrorism, such as assassinations or financing terrorist groups.”3

This determination would trigger the collection avenues of an extremely powerful but not widely known law, the Terrorism Risk Insurance Act of 2002, or TRIA.4 TRIA allows any person that has a judgment against a state sponsor of terrorism or its agents or instrumentalities, for an act of terrorism, the right to satisfy their judgment by seeking to obtain the “blocked assets” from those parties or their agencies and instrumentalities. As defined by TRIA, blocked assets include any asset seized or frozen by the United States under 5(b) of the Trading With the Enemy Act (50 U.S.C. App. 5(b)) and the International Emergency Economic Powers Act (50 U.S.C. App. 1701; 1702). The Trading With the Enemy Act grants the Office of Foreign Assets Control (OFAC) the power to block assets. The OFAC-seized funds or assets are therefore within TRIA’s scope.5

In short, if President Biden were to name Russia a state sponsor of terrorism, any company, individual, or state that obtains a judgment or award against Russia, or its agents or instrumentalities for an act of terrorism, could move to domesticate the judgment or award in the United States and attempt to obtain satisfaction of its judgment via any blocked or frozen assets of Russian oligarchs and Russia. Importantly, any funds blocked in the United States could arguably be used to satisfy the judgment or award so long as the blocked funds are, at minimum, from an agent or instrumentality of Russia. This could include non-Russian entities or individuals.

Like Cher said in Moonstruck...

[ancianita]

42. And you're one of them! Good questions deserve good answers, right? It's called effort posting,

right? It's not about me anyway, it's about US. Sometimes you stick your head up here and there's a pile-on of criticism and cheap one liners. Other times, you get appreciated.

This place, for Democrats, is also a business, so ... Ya pays ya money and ya takes ya chances.

[MadameButterfly]

79. Blue states are preparing

so states AGs will be important. Doing real law while US AG does retribution

[MadameButterfly]

87. What are you basing "he didn't win" on?

[summer_in_TX]

52. We have to remember that there is a crisis of trust in media sources.

Fox News audiences are hardened in rejecting other sources. But it's not just them.

The low information voter, busy with raising kids, getting them to their events, and working has no reason to trust Lawrence Tribe, even if they happen to have that channel on. And trust me, they don't. If they did, they wouldn't be low information voters.

It turns out that WE are more trusted by those close to us than the pundits are. They know us. They know our honesty, credibility, judgment. We are the ones who need to be having conversations, write letters to the editor, organize gatherings to discuss these things.

That doesn't meant the brilliant writers and pundits have no value now. Among other things, they're very important to help us clarify our thoughts and articulate what is going on. When I wrote my Texas Republican Senators about why they shouldn't confirm Hegseth, I borrowed very heavily from a recent Substack post by Timothy Snyder on just some of his many flaws. https://snyder.substack.com/p/pete-hegseth-the-short-course

[summer_in_TX]

139. Thank you!

Merry Christmas to you too, Chin Music!



🤶

[kerry-is-my-prez]

6. The EPA has pretty much been long gone. The polluters

Have been in charge of that for a while. People now have to fight AGAINST the EPA. And the new nominee under Trump Zeldin, shows that between 2007 and 2024, he received $269,608 from the petroleum industry.

[Groundhawg]

11. no

[elleng]

28. Right!

[BootinUp]

13. Everything has been muddied by lies and rhetoric.

But the reality is they have very weak control of the house and the sentate is also going to try and assert some independence. So it sounds worse than it is likely to be. I predict Trump will have a historically short honeymoon. The Democrats need to keep their coalition united and ready for a strong campaign at the midterms. Showboating for attention is not what is needed. Let the pukes have the attention, they will screw the pooch on their own.

[BootinUp]

15. Do what exactly. Be specific with your ideas, you have mine. Im out.

[Kaleva]

45. Climate change will take care of a lot of this

As the younger of us, our kids and grandkids struggle to survive

Shit is going to get much, much worse regardless of what Trump and his minions do and what we do in response to that

[Kaleva]

58. Merry Christmas to you too!

[elleng]

27. Yes, GOOD!

[brush]

20. There's supposed to be a COLA for SS benefits coming up...

in January. I wonder if it will happen with the trump kakistocracy taking over on January 20, 2025?

[stopdiggin]

51. already been announced, and in the pipeline

Have you not received notice from SS yet? (should have)

[brush]

59. I have, that's why I'm wondering it the trump/musk admin will step in...

nullify it as they're trying to cut massive amounts from the federal budget.

If we think nothing will change with trump coming in, we need to prepare for the shit sandwich that's coming.

[stopdiggin]

65. I think you exaggerate (and postulate things

that stand little real chance of happening)
But I'll keep you in mind - and let you know if the check fails to show ...

- - - - - - - - -

[brush]

124. Keep having faith in trump/musk team. Have you not heard...

trump has given musk and Ramaswamy carte blance to cut, cut and cut government expenses everywhere and musk is on record for targeting social security?

The rethugs have been trying to cut social security since FDR's New Deal. Now that they have total control of all three branches of the federal government, and a corrupt SCOTUS majority, you think they're going to stop now?

The upcoming January SS check maybe good, but who knows if the next ones will be for less, or maybe not come at all?

But keep on trusting in the new fascism.

[stopdiggin]

125. difference being

you continue to freak out BEFORE any of this occurs - while I continue to wait to see IF it occurs ...

(and I rather think something like a cut to my SS, would require something just slightly more involved and complex than an okie-dokie from Elon Musk) But you do you ...

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

[brush]

126. Keep on thinking nothing is going to change.

What has changed is your first response to me on this matter which was: "already been announced, and in the pipeline."

[stopdiggin]

131. I didn't say that

I said I'm am waiting to see what changes are actually evidenced. And my best guess is that Musk is not going to be able to pull my SS check. Or at least in anything like the way you presented ...

post #20 - There's supposed to be a COLA for SS benefits coming up...
in January. I wonder if it will happen with the trump kakistocracy taking over on January 20, 2025?

[brush]

133. Funny how I copied and pasted it from you first response to me...

about the COLA coming up. Are you forgeting your own post?

Anyway, let's forget. It's not worth talking about anymore.

[stopdiggin]

136. yes, the COLA has already been tallied and announced

(in the pipeline) as to both percentage and flat figures. And it is my considered expectation that that (preordained) figure will hit my bank account on the day prescribed - just as it usually does. You apparently foresee something different from that normal process ... But, as previously agreed - I will keep my eye peeled for any diversion (from norm) on this end - and immediately contact you should that occur.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

[ancianita]

29. Yes. A war of attrition, stealth, oligarchs, on multiple fronts. With the enemy unseen

behind fictional personhoods, security teams, found in skyscrapers, extra-jurisdictional locations, distant golf courses. They have met the enemy within, and it is their psychotic projecting selves.

How we defend those they harm will be through our prosecutors on the defensive front the ACLU and CREW. Even firms like the Elias Law Group.

Those who swear oaths to the Constitution and not to billionaire or cryptotechbro owners will not allow them to take the reins.

This stealth war took years to even see and will take years to fight.

This lists what oligarch/autocrats do to coordinate with each other, and how they've been beaten back. I don't like books without indexes but it's still informative as we head into this unfamiliar war.


Or even Admiral James Stavridis (his Sea Power: The History and Geopolitics of the World's Oceans is an eye opener for every American civilian), as is any writing by any former U.S. military general or commander.

[ancianita]

33. And thank you for yours. These are serious times for serious people. The rest is distraction.

Happy Holidays to you, too, my friend.

[Bluethroughu]

37. Our institutions are bought and paid for by the billionaires.

What about millions man march on Washington for Christmas, demanding these Insurrectionists, criminals, and sedtionist traitors be arrested!

Those participating in the breakdown of our Democracy be removed, effective that day.
The 6 traitors on the Supreme Court resign or be arrested for sedition.

[Bluethroughu]

43. I understand what you are saying, but there are justices

Hanging out with foreign oligarchs playing complaints neo-feudalistic fever dreams, and few bought and paid for...they are only concerned with their own hides.

We have a justice dept. That has all the evidence it needs, to charge people with Sedition, counterfeiting currency, and like you said attacking the peoples' property and protective institutions. Fraud.
Elon is an easy target, seize his assets and pick him up for lying on his naturalization, election interference, and fraud. Move to the next oligarch...

[Bluethroughu]

111. I'm all for it, anything and everything!

[Woodycall]

41. Or, can we afford to believe, as the TV talkers

and Democratic leaders seem to delude themselves into believing, that there will be "free and fair" elections going forward? That "We'll bury them in the midterms!"? I'm afraid I have my doubts that that's going to be an option anymore. And I do mean afraid. And, I also think those same "cheerleaders" have their own plans made and their own "go-bags" packed too...

[Buddyzbuddy]

46. Great minds

It's like you're living in my head. I couldn't have said it better.

[Buddyzbuddy]

94. Exactly

Joe has imunity too. But the difference is, he has honor. Both a blessing and a curse. If at all possible, enjoy the Holidays.

[cadoman]

49. we voted, the vote was counted, there is nothing else that can be done...

...that we aren't already doing.

[LudwigPastorius]

55. If you're serious about going to "war",...

the first thing you should do is get off of DemocraticUnderground, and the internet in general.

...unless you want to end up in ADX Florence or Gitmo.

[LudwigPastorius]

68. LOL

[Dem4life1970]

57. On the bright side...

he is off to a very bad start. Plus, if his incompetents somehow survive confirmation and end up actually running these Departments they are unqualified for and have no idea how to run, they will be learning on the job for the first six months. Then the inevitable court challenges when they try to jam through their agenda, plus whatever other crises are lurking around the corner. If it gets into late 2025 and he hasn't jammed through his radical agenda, he is toast. Like someone said today, as soon as he lifts his tiny hand off that Bible (which I am not watching btw), he becomes the lamest of lame ducks.

[Dem4life1970]

135. Had the tables been turned...

...and Harris won after inciting an insurrection, you can bet that the Court Cases challenging her ability under the 14th Amendment to take office would be in the courts right now.

But installing Vice-Vice-President Vance (after eliminating Pres. Musk and VP Trump ) would help them. So it's better that the out of touch nutjob is in charge for 4 years....

[H2O Man]

69. Recommended.

I remember years ago when Onondaga Faithkeeper Oren Lyons was speaking to a non-Indian audience. He said it would not be that long until the US government began treating its citizens the same way as it treated Native Americans.

[Meadowoak]

99. It's a silent war that began in 1980. Rich out to destroy the poor.

Slowly, systematically, incrementally. They've been playing the long game. Our side didn't even know we were at war. Now we are almost powerless, this isn't going to go well.

[mopinko]

100. that was the beginning of the end of ppl telling the truth. "spin"

i knew back then, when st ronnie got away w lies by calling them “spin” that we were in trouble.
now we live in 2 completely different realities.

[Oneironaut]

102. Just wait. If we take the high road, ignore Trump, and start talking about the real issues, it'll be fine! /s

Also, any group Trump singles out we’ll throw under the bus and agree with him about, and, we’re going to muzzle outspoken Democrats like AOC. Any rudeness against our rights being taken away will not be tolerated!

Just be quiet everyone! It’ll be fine! There’s an election in 2 years! /s

[Meadowoak]

104. sarcasm, I hope?

[Oneironaut]

119. Sarcasm and contempt, tbh

[Nimble_Idea]

109. umm, u got a lot of questions. why not provide solutions instead of complaining.

but we had an election, there will be another(despite the hyperventilating in bags).

people need to FAFO.

[Blue_Tires]

127. Finally someone here is asking the right questions...

And yes, we've already been at war for over a decade, fighting on multiple fronts. The only question left is when do we go nuclear with it...

[ismnotwasm]

130. Right now it looks like a lawsuit game

As we all know, We do not have a majority, period.

States like Washington and California have been prepping for at least a couple of years to put a damper on the destruction, remarkable foresight, that.

I think people are shoving down the fear and dread right now. It’s a true lull before the storm.

Trump is weird and can be unpredictable. Whatever he proposes, has to be legally countered. He gives no fucks about People marching in the streets. He’s got MAGA, he’s got a broken media, he’s got money.

Right now, he’s fucking Sauron, MAGA all is orcs and Wormtongues. And they breed incessently.