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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsYikes. Result of texting and?--Companies are firing Gen Z employees soon after hiring them.
This is from a European News Source, but I tend to doubt they are unique. I have had tremendous problems with grad students and interns being unable to write--even if you ignore the horrific spelling and grammar. I've now had to cut back on agreeing to mentor students completing a thesis for their Master's degrees because I end up exhausting all my spare time rewriting, editing, meeting to discuss what they are trying to convey, and ending up finding them unable to meet even minimal standards one would expect for their level of education. Not just Gen Z, mind you--this has been going on for a while. Still, I find this alarming if it is widespread.Companies are firing Gen Z employees soon after hiring them. What's behind their job struggles?
https://www.euronews.com/next/2024/12/08/companies-are-firing-gen-z-workers-soon-after-hiring-them-whats-behind-their-job-market-st?utm_source=firefox-newtab-en-us
As many recent graduates face complaints about how they fit into the workplace, employers report increasing hesitancy in hiring them, according to a report by the education and career advisory platform, Intelligent.
The report, which was based on a survey of nearly 1,000 hiring managers, found that one in six employers were reluctant to hire Gen Z workers mainly due to their reputation for being entitled and easily offended.
Moreover, more than half said that this generation, which refers to people born between 1997 and the early 2010s, lacks a strong work ethic, struggles with communication, doesn't handle feedback well, and is generally unprepared for the demands of the workforce.
Holly Schroth, senior lecturer at the Haas School of Business at the University of California, Berkeley, explained that Gen Z's focus on extracurricular activities to boost their college competitiveness rather than gaining job experience has led to "unrealistic expectations" about the workplace and how to deal with their bosses.
"They [Gen Z] don't know basic skills for social interaction with customers, clients, and co-workers, nor workplace etiquette," Schroth told Euronews Next in an email.
I would note that these are among the students most impacted by COVID-19 restrictions and social isolation so they are going to need a LOT of mentoring. I do hope they get it somewhere along the way.
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Walleye
(44,807 posts)Probably as a result of texting and so forth, that skill is getting harder and harder to find
rich7862
(492 posts)Teaching the memorization process instead of phonics has left eight graders without the ability to read a book and now they do not teach cursive writing, it too hard for the kids.. Kids have gone back to printing. Our policies on quality education is totally gone.
exboyfil
(18,359 posts)I am not sure that lack of cursive is all that important. I pretty much printed my entire academic career (1981 HS graduate). Far more important is the ability to type (or use a keyboard) and program. Same with spreadsheets vs. doing double entry bookkeeping by hand.
On the other hand I strongly agree that students still should read at least five good books a year in their literature classes with associated discussions and essays on those books. Essay writing should also be emphasized in social studies classes and, to a lesser extent, science classes.
brush
(61,033 posts)is what's needed in today's world. Cursive...meh.
snot
(11,804 posts)On NPR today I heard a story that a commercial corporation is being sued by parents for deceptive marketing because it sold their school system a method for teaching reading in which students were instructed to just look at the first letter of a word and then try to guess what the word was based on the context.
The school system spent millions buying the corporation's materials, etc. for this approach. Apparently it produced a generation of students who couldn't read.
Attilatheblond
(8,880 posts)*educational software and hardware company co-founded in 1999 by Texas businessman Neil Bush. Anybody else recall Mom Barbara Bush writing a big check for Katrina relief, but with the stipulation that her donation be used only for purchasing Neil's company's 'educational software'.
I'm so old I recall Neil Bush and the Savings and Loans mess.
snot
(11,804 posts)
brush
(61,033 posts)because if they had, they've shown those selling that crap the door.
DenaliDemocrat
(1,777 posts)And use text shorthand. I had to tell them you MUST pick up the phone. You MUST get out of your chair and walk over to meet with your engineer. It’s ridiculous how averse they are to human interaction.
kerry-is-my-prez
(10,283 posts)I worked in a bank with investments and could not believe how little the people with MBAs and finance degrees could figure out problems involving percentages and interest rates.
bucolic_frolic
(55,143 posts)Generally, I concluded young professionals of today are not the same as young professionals of 30-40 years ago. Too much internet and cable TV and cell phones, too many night school graduate programs, from startup or relatively new programs. Depth of expertise has been watered down, imho.
LisaM
(29,634 posts)I think there is a lot more ageism in the workplace, too. That is never addressed in DEI initiatives.
bucolic_frolic
(55,143 posts)
Horse with no Name
(34,239 posts)These kids today (and I work with a few) think all they need is their degree and doors will magically open. They don’t realize that the degree is just the first part. They have to get the institutional knowledge and a foundation before those doors swing open. We recently lost a promising young associate because she didn’t get a promotion that she did nothing to prepare for.
Happy Hoosier
(9,535 posts)A lot of my new hires are VERY skilled. The main problem I have with them is that they seem reluctant to collaborate. I think that might be an artifact of the COVID years. Also, they definitely have a more finite attention span.
But skills? They got 'em.
VMA131Marine
(5,270 posts)are not the same as the ones 60-80 years ago.
Plus ça change, plus c’est la même chose …
The old generation always bemoans the interests, priorities, and attitudes of the up and coming generations. This is nothing new and it’s just a sign that the older generations are afraid of change. GenZ will be just fine.
appmanga
(1,493 posts)Who the hell are these parents who can't explain to their kids parents don't go with them on job interviews? That's part of the problem.
SheltieLover
(80,486 posts)
H2O Man
(79,056 posts)a woman came to an interview for a top position, accompanied by her father. She made sure we all knew he was a minister in a city in another county. I had a sense that she would not be a perfect fit. She was not ..... she was a kind person, though.
Demobrat
(10,299 posts)where her 25 year old son worked as a delivery driver to “talk to them” when the kid got in trouble. She just thought this was a normal thing to do. So did he.
H2O Man
(79,056 posts)things when I am in public. What nature of human being walks near me? What happened to them? Why are they like this?
Demobrat
(10,299 posts)when she casually told me about this. I asked a couple of questions to make sure I had heard her correctly, and changed the subject. I was literally flabbergasted. Speechless.
H2O Man
(79,056 posts)I think it is important to keep in mind that we are but primates, the third most diverse order of mammals, after rodents and bats. Keeping this in mind allows me to set the bar low, despite the fact that I feel like I'm trapped in the Woody Allen movie where he tells his girlfriend's brother he has "an appointment on earth." I can smile, nod my head, and immediately change the subject.
snot
(11,804 posts)
Just unbelievable. Can’t imagine asking mommy or daddy to come to a job interview with me or go talk to my boss because I had an issue with employer.
Noel Kums
(90 posts)The coddled generation.
calimary
(90,036 posts)Embarrassing and outrageous, isn’t it!
3catwoman3
(29,406 posts)...to go to their kids' job interviews? Terminal helicopter parenting.
brush
(61,033 posts)God I hope at least they stayed in the outer office so it wouldn't appear so damn pathetic.
bsiebs
(959 posts)it was on the lower east side (5th and A Avenue) and I was 30 years old... the really nice couple (landlords) that were going to let me rent the space insisted on talking to my parents first... i was in shock, but whatever... my parents later told me that they thought i was a very nice man... i got the place, but it really felt like i was a child again.
Lower east side in the 80's was wild tho... The saying was look at the street you're on.. A=Alert, B=Beware, C=Caution, D=Dead,, Now it is all Starbucks and trendy restaurants...
bamagal62
(4,505 posts)On D or C! Alphabet City is trying. But, it ain’t there yet.
Lulu KC
(8,893 posts)Lots of fun! Across the street from Tompkins Square Park.
Nittersing
(8,381 posts)Kitty corner from the park. Used to watch drug deals and busts from the fire escape.
DebbieCDC
(2,548 posts)When I worked in NYC in the mid-80’s one of my coworkers lived in that neighborhood. It was always an adventure going to her place.
spooky3
(38,634 posts)Who was upset with his grade. The student said his mother wanted to get on the line. Without missing a beat, Leo said, “great—let me get my mommy.”
yardwork
(69,364 posts)They wanted to talk about their child's career and why they weren't being promoted.
spooky3
(38,634 posts)yardwork
(69,364 posts)
Skittles
(171,717 posts)I mean......come on 
Mariana
(15,626 posts)This was about 20 years ago.
hunter
(40,691 posts)They just show up for work one day and the boss tasks you with keeping them out of trouble.
I once worked with a wealthy kid who was so bad he would have killed someone by his negligence. Thankfully he only lasted two weeks and quit. How do people like that even graduate from college?
I imagine he's the CEO of some major health care corporation now.
exboyfil
(18,359 posts)I have a tough time believing that.
allegorical oracle
(6,480 posts)was that applicants (with/without parents) were showing up to interviews and work (if hired) "inappropriately dressed." Try to write off some of these issues as a simple difference of generational dos and don'ts, but the Human Resource folks aren't all that old, themselves.
Attilatheblond
(8,880 posts)Many already have 4 year degrees, some have 5 year degrees. Most have trouble making it to testing appointments. Lots have trouble passing tests. Many will argue that they should just be automatically passed because they showed up, or the instructions were confusing. Some actually bring their mothers to argue for them.
These are grown ass adults with college education. The woman I reference is constantly astounded that so many cannot write a paragraph, let alone an essay. Several times a week, we get emails about how astoundingly infantile and academically failing these people are. And they want to be certified to teach!
allegorical oracle
(6,480 posts)Attilatheblond
(8,880 posts)
Meowmee
(9,212 posts)It’s only going to get worse with AI as well. No one will have to write very much at all anymore and they can just use AI.. 😹 as far as the attention span issues go that has also been going on for a long time. I was told not to make a video lecture more than 5- 10 minutes long because nobody would be able to pay attention to it.
* adding this: when some students hear Leonardo they think Di Caprio… not Da Vinci… one student when starting her presentation said I’m going to be talking about the Mona Lisa by Leonardo DiCaprio 😹😹😹
SheltieLover
(80,486 posts)Yet, somehow, youngsters can pay attention to You Tube for extended periods of time.
Meowmee
(9,212 posts)I do think it’s easier for me to make shorter lectures and maybe breaking them up into segments will make it easier for some to process, but 5 to 10 minutes is really not enough time to cover some of the things that I want to cover.
It’s a lot easier for me to read AI than to try to decipher some of the worst writing that I have encountered over the years. Not that I think it’s a great idea overall. Who knows, maybe some will learn to write better by using it.
JoseBalow
(9,489 posts)Youngsters are scrolling through 1-minute TikTok videos as fast as their thumbs permit. 
Prof. Toru Tanaka
(2,926 posts)I’m a retired geezer and I really enjoy watching YouTube.
JoseBalow
(9,489 posts)
Prof. Toru Tanaka
(2,926 posts)
wnylib
(26,019 posts)but they are history documentaries, or about other non fiction topics, not fiction.
I put my phone on the kitchen counter and watch/listen while preparing food, i.e. chopping vegetables, peeling apples, mixing a batter for cookies, etc.
When the video is done, I read several of the comments.
Polybius
(21,902 posts)It basically consumes all my free time. I absolutely love shorts. No long term commitments.
getagrip_already
(17,802 posts)Just saying.
Polybius
(21,902 posts)I misspoke. Not super-shorts like TikTok, I mean videos that are like 7 to 10 minutes.
Prof. Toru Tanaka
(2,926 posts)Wow…..just wow. 
Meowmee
(9,212 posts)Last edited Mon Dec 16, 2024, 01:49 AM - Edit history (1)
Even she was laughing when I corrected it. 😹😹😹
Edited to add: I didn’t laugh at her at the time, and would not do that etc. I laughed about it later after the fact at home. But she did laugh about it 😀 I thought maybe she was just nervous / confused.
I think a lot of these issues being brought up may have something to do with teachers in elementary, middle, and high school and university/college being afraid to teach a curriculum anymore based on academics and also to have standards due to not having support from admin. It could also be in part due to circumstances in the homes/ resources etc. but maybe not always since some are ok financially at least. Then add things like ai and constant use of phones etc. in to the mix.
PeaceWave
(3,384 posts)
ProfessorGAC
(76,706 posts)...have italian last names! 
Meowmee
(9,212 posts)Di Caprio should be flattered 😁
exboyfil
(18,359 posts)Meowmee
(9,212 posts)Certainly better than some for the actual writing.
LisaM
(29,634 posts)We had shared assistants for doing things like sending hard copies of documents, putting together exhibits, and so forth. They were willing enough to help, but after smart phones became commonplace, they were all wearing ear buds or headphones all the time. Even though they were ostensibly my assistants, it made me feel as if I was interrupting them to ask for help with non billable tasks.
Their writing skills were also horrific. They didn't know how to write a salutation, a business letter, or, seemingly, how to string together two sentences in the same paragraph. They larded communications with words like "thankfully". They didn't know when to say "or me" instead of "or I".
I don't think laziness is the issue. They weren't lazy and were often bright. But they weren't able to focus on a task for a long time, and with the headphone/ear bud thing, workplace camaraderie vanished. It was deathly quiet in the hallways, which I found unnerving.
Renew Deal
(85,169 posts)Are colleges properly preparing people for the workforce? Are they covering the correct content? Are they failing students that should fail?
LisaM
(29,634 posts)Our cousin is a professor at a very prestigious university. Her students use AI, ignore prohibitions on electronics in class, don't do the work and are so thin-skinned about feedback (not even criticism) that she is at her wit's end. And they are all triggered by innocuous things. If she tries any kind of academic discipline, the parents come swooping in and she has to devote 25 or 30 hours (that she doesn't have) to mediation.
Another professor friend I know said a student who wasn't doing well complained that she was made to feel "othered" by the professor. A new complaint for this professor and she thinks that the "other" is age; in other words, the student can't relate to the professor because the professor is too old (she's in her fifties).
Some of this goes back to the ridiculous number of IEPs teachers have to deal with in K-12.
I honestly don't know the answers here.
cosmic wheels
(1 post)suggest a generation that is cognitively impaired? You don't get an IEP just for having ADD, I would imagine...
deurbano
(2,986 posts)as a result of cerebral palsy, and has perceptual issues (never expected to learn to read, but became a bookworm), specific learning disabilities and organizational challenges, but graduated from Berkeley and is quite bright, even identified as gifted. (She was also an elected delegate to the Democratic convention this summer.)
Lulu KC
(8,893 posts)It depends on the effects on the child's ability to function in school. It may vary by state, but where I have lived it is possible.
Renew Deal
(85,169 posts)Their thoughts match the sentiment of this article.
cbabe
(6,648 posts)writing taken out of schools in favor of teaching to the test. Plus big investments in Writers Worksop curriculum that focused on personal experiences.
Teachers who tried to teach grammar and objective writing were harassed and many times forced out.
We’re well into the third generation of teachers who never learned academic writing. They don’t know what they missed. And they can’t teach what has been wiped out of education.
meadowlander
(5,133 posts)until it could be "graded" by a computer instead of a human being. Kids don't get the individualized feedback on challenging writing assignments that they used to get.
Then the internet gave kids the tools to make it easy to cheat instead of having to think and come up with something themselves.
AI is just going to make it all 1000 times worse.
I do also think though that companies have abrogated their responsibility for training young people. You used to hire young people, expecting that they would have gaps, and then invest the time and energy to get them up to speed instead of complaining that they aren't perfect at their jobs from the beginning. Companies don't want to invest time and money into training people who quit as soon as they can because they are treated like shit. That's not a generation problem, it's a work culture problem.
snot
(11,804 posts)I think certain constituencies believed it was in their interest to prevent people from developing critical thinking skills (which I fear are difficult without language skills – I doubt you can clearly think what you can't clearly articulate).
FakeNoose
(41,637 posts)That's when teachers were given bonuses and other rewards whenever the students "passed tests." No actual learning was required, only test scores mattered. It's another disaster we have to thank Dubya for.
WhiskeyGrinder
(26,956 posts)
IbogaProject
(5,913 posts)It takes a lot of work over time to be able to write properly. That work includes reading long form books, both fiction and non-fiction. I'm an early Gen-X so my cohort was the start of this decline. We already had cable tv and video games and Reagan on slashing educational standards along with funding. I feel the blame can be laid on the stagnation in standards of living too many of these kids and their teachers have been raised with less economic resources. Then you add on all the endless distractions from media and now we are heading into Huxley's Brave New World.
WhiskeyGrinder
(26,956 posts)
TBF
(36,671 posts)I was in a small town. We didn't have cable, although a few were lucky enough to have Atari. The rest of us played outside!
But we also learned how to write in our small schools. We didn't have "do-overs", and everyone did not get A's. There was not a single 4.0 in my graduating senior class. One boy was very close but missed getting an A in Senior English. It's just the way it was back then - our parents made us live with natural consequences. Now I have 2 kids who have gone through the system which emphasizes STEM, AP classes, extra-curricular activities, etc. You'd think they'd be even stronger candidates, but I have a theory that if you spread yourself too thin you wind up not accomplishing much. Many of the best teachers have left the profession, and many parents will completely flip out if Johnny does not get straight A's - whether earned or not.
And I think it will just go further downhill with the anti-education mantra of the incoming administration.
IbogaProject
(5,913 posts)All the generations after Gen X do. This is from the shifting gaming platforms and the more centralized media. Born in 1968, I grew up in ground zero of cable TV. We never had it but most of my peers did, and boy did they spend their time watching TV. I spent most of my childhood outdoors but my teens it shifted. Starting in the early 1980s kid's hand grip strength by age has been in decline they don't spend time climbing trees and lugging found objects around, and they spend less time on unstructured out side play. I can't find the reference but the middle of the twentieth century was a sort of golden age of childhood, where prosperity increased, children didn't work and before their time got scheduled and supervised.
bamagal62
(4,505 posts)Time has taken a toll. We have scheduled these kids from morning to night without any time for pleasure reading or being creative.
Colleges want to see all these extracurricular activities and awards. It’s wearing them down. And, then, they go off to college and they don’t know how to manage their time because it’s been micromanaged from when they were toddlers. This over management causes them not to be able to do anything on their own. It’s crazy.
GaYellowDawg
(5,101 posts)We had cable when I got into high school, but there never was a gaming console in the house. I tell kids that I didn't have a GameCube, I had a Rubik's Cube. I was usually outside playing pickup football or basketball, and when I wasn't, I was usually reading. Usually science fiction. My parents found out that I liked Stephen King, so any time we went on some kind of long trip, they'd give me the latest King book and they wouldn't hear a peep from me, lol. I did also get into the Rubik's Cube and was one of the few at school who could work it.
My stepson just wants to sit in the dark in his room and stay on his phone or his gaming console. He's gotten sucked into what I call the toxic masculinity sphere. Used to watch Andrew Paul. Loves Joe Rogan. Has views on women that you'd associate more with 1924 than 2024. He wants to be told that the world is unfair to him in particular and his demographic in general, and there are plenty of influencers who are happy to tell boys like him that for the clicks.
One way that GenZ differs from ours is that they want to be persuaded of the validity of directions before they'll follow them. Not a bad thing in some cases, but there are a lot of times in life where you just have to shut the f up and do what you're told.
Prairie Gates
(8,157 posts)In the 1890s.
The whole history of writing education for engineers deals with the same problem - back to the first technical / engineering writing programs in the 1910s.
You're exactly right. This is a load of bullshit that is said of every generation. Hell, Plato didn't even like wriitng because it messed with the purer human experience of memory. Writing? Pshaw. That's like bringing your parents to a job interview!
Karia
(187 posts)The sorts of writing -and reading- problems I see truly have changed, in two distinct steps. First, with the emphasis on standardized testing, more (not all!!!) students had difficulties reading or writing more than 5 paragraphs. Second, with AI, some students (definitely not all!) don’t even try to write on their own.
It’s a spectrum, though, you are right to note that it always has been. There have always been some students who struggle, some who don’t care, and some students who do very well.
IMHO, the big difference is between students who have a long established habit of reading outside of school, and those who don’t.
CrispyQ
(40,970 posts)There was an article last week about how young men aren't reading anymore. Most fiction is being written & read by women. Imagine how frustrating if you can't express what you're feeling & this is a group that has all sorts of social issues trying to express themselves & now they're losing their language skills, too. Couple that with the sense of entitlement they now feel in this new your-body-my-choice era.
cbabe
(6,648 posts)time has powerful effects on brain development and concentration necessary for reading skills.
I do remember hearing Silicon Valley parents know this well and completely limit screen time for their children while creating programs aimed at addicting our children.
cachukis
(3,938 posts)As a retired educator, I saw this coming.
The transition to this new language is already wreaking havoc.
We are now fossils, unable to enliven.
AI, social media and climate change.
We are not escaping.
Be wise with foresight.
oldfart73
(78 posts)In order to graduate with a four year degree, we had to write a 500 word essay. We went in one Saturday to learn the requirements and pick two topics we wanted to write about. Then on another Saturday, we showed up with nothing in hand. They gave us pencil and paper and two questions on each topic. We could write an essay on any of the four questions. I studied speech class format for writing my essay. If you passed, that was fine. If there was any doubt, more people would review the essay.
--------------------------
Over the decades, Presidential campaign speeches have deteriorated to lower levels of literacy.
3catwoman3
(29,406 posts)...at Northern Michigan University in Marquette, MI, while my Air Force pilot husband was stationed at K. I. Sawyer Air Force Base. All students, regardless of major, had to pass a writing test in order to graduate. All students had to take 2 English courses as part of the core curriculum, and the writing test could be taken any time after those 2 courses had been passed.
The set up was very similar to what you described. Topics available in advance, altho there were several more than 2, and they were made available about a month in advance, so plenty of time to plan and practice. 600 words. 2 hours to complete. The topics were not exotic - things like "Is there too much violence in sports?" or "The effect of divorce on the family."
The English department was always looking for volunteers to evaluate these essays, so I offered to participate. The English and nursing offices were across the hall from each other, and I had frequently spoken to various faculty members from the English department, decrying the generally poor writing skills of many of my nursing students, so this opportunity intrigued me.
All potential evaluators were given a sample packet of actual past essays, and 10 criteria upon which the writing was to be scored from 1 to 4 - 4 being fully competent/literate. The criteria were what you would expect - grammar, spelling, sentence structure, clarity, etc.
Hoo, boy! Some of the essays were appallingly incompetent, especially considering that the students had passed 2 English classes. I gave several 2s, and a few 1s. I was told my standards were too harsh.
It turned out that none of the required core English classes required any extemporaneous writing. Everything the students wrote was done outside of class, so who knows who was actually writing what some of them turned in.
An additional note - One time, I saw a note from a pre-nursing student taped to the door of her advisor's office. It read, "I've came by, but you wasn't in."
Mariana
(15,626 posts)Whoever could have guessed?
ReRe
(12,189 posts)which gives that test at the end of Sophomore year. It's pass or fail. If you fail, you have to repeat Freshman English Comp and then take the test again. 
SheltieLover
(80,486 posts)The Anxious Generation: How the Rewiring of Childhood is Causing an Epidemic of Mental Illness, by Jonathan Haidt?
I've not yet read it, but it's up next in my cueue.
It makes sense, though, with the social media obsession, not to mention even the subconscious fear of being gunned down at school.
So much time spent "communicatimg" in social media and texts is literally training their brains in that manner.
Poor kids...
I have a 23 yr old grandson who has been blessed with clear, concise writing skills but his former cohotts, not so much. It's as if their brains are so scrambled, neither of us can understand what they are attempting to convey.
Bluethroughu
(7,215 posts)
I am passing this book on to my daughter teaching English for a Middle School.
Thank you as always.
SheltieLover
(80,486 posts)Next up in my library queue.
It only stands to reason though. One cannot text in acronyms with such few characters constantly, then expect their neural pathways to be functional to write lengthy research papers
Yes, the brain has great plasticity, but the neural pathways must be built by practice.
Celerity
(54,410 posts)
LisaM
(29,634 posts)I think people honestly are having difficulty with a workplace generation that has a short attention span and can't write basic letters (yes, sometimes we still need to write actual letters) and doesn't seem to believe in fostering a collegial work environment. I have worked with younger, very bright people, but they can't write or spell and lack some basic grammar skills. Not their fault, it's the system they came up in.
Celerity
(54,410 posts)
hlthe2b
(113,973 posts)They need help. Not your abuse of all who point out the problems.
Celerity
(54,410 posts)I see posters calling us (I was born a bit over 2 months prematurely or I be a first week Gen Zer instead of an tail-ender Millennial, I am an archetypal Zillennial) the coddled generation, scrambled brains, etc.
It's par for the course here. Millennials also get the 'treatment'.
If I went around DUand used the same slatings against Boomers I have seen employed in hundreds (thousands?) of posts here, I would have been incinerated ages ago.
The student loan debt forgiveness threads were especially 'fun'.
hlthe2b
(113,973 posts)on this forum IS a major problem whether you choose to ignore it or not. But, I am worried about our future generations and we ALL have a role in trying to fight what is destroying their opportunities and quality of life. It does not start and stop at student debt. The idiocy of GWBush* and his vernacular actually said it quite well if you think about it: "is our children learning?..." The answer for all too many is NO. That is ON ALL OF US.
And while I appreciate your clarification, the fact that you started your very first post by accusing everyone on this thread of "youth bashing" shows 1)]. you did not bother to even read the OP (where I laid out my decades of attempts to help my interns and students--whether Gen X, Millenials or Gen Z-- and the CLEAR reasons for my increasing concerns) or any of the initial comments. Nor did you even take it seriously. 2). that you deserved my admonishment.
Celerity
(54,410 posts)hlthe2b
(113,973 posts)without even bothering to read what they are writing and accusing them of "youth bashing". Condescension? Pot meet kettle.
Celerity
(54,410 posts)
Abolishinist
(2,958 posts)well-to-do 65+ white males on this site, so I'm grateful for that!
But seriously, I do enjoy your posts, and the amount of research you often do.
Celerity
(54,410 posts)
Docreed2003
(18,714 posts)It is wild to me that the same folks who scream "ageism" any time it's suggested that party leadership is largely older are the very same people who make posts slamming younger generations. I'm a Gen Xer, on the younger end of that generation, and so we largely skirt through unnoticed in these discussions, like we have most of our lives lol. Keep your head up. Your voice is important here on this platform. People need to hear it, even if they may not agree with your perspective. And, to your point about loan relief, you're spot on...those discussion were "enlightening" to say the least.
Celerity
(54,410 posts)
Celerity
(54,410 posts)I refuse to sit here, as one of the very few sub 30yo regular posters here, and not point out broadbrush attacks on us younger folk. I have seen it done so much here since I joined the board, and some of the ones who dish it out are some of the first to scream bloody murder if a person broadbrushes THEIR gen (Boomers especially).
I do not care if I am (and I am here, no doubt about it) vastly outnumbered. I am going to speak out about it.
Cirsium
(3,943 posts)Strange that people don't see it.
Celerity
(54,410 posts)to 36yo age cohort (I turned 28 less than 2 minths ago) to join DU and to a person they all said 'thanks but no thanks'. I gave up years ago trying to bring them in.
There are some wonderful older posters here, really great people, but there also is an undercurrent of real hostility towards younger people that I have seen far too often. It's depressing and I try to push back (this thread is very mild compared to some) but I am always going to be outnumbered here.
I accept that, but it will never deter me from caling it out, as long as I am an active poster here.
I left and took a break in August (first real multiple month break since I joined), but came back a few weeks after the election. I honestly cannot say I am all thrilled with my choice to do so.
I came back mainly to help myself wrap my head around all the many reasons why we lost. Unfortunately I do not feel at all like this is a safe space for substantive discussion on certain parts in the realm of reasons. Some oarts, yes, but certainly others, well, not so much.
I may end up leaving again (starting to have to fight the urge again, which is not a good sign), and if I do, this time it will probably be for good, or at least years. I do not know. I really have lost a lot of desire to ever return to living in the US, and my wife (non US citizen, Swedish/UK) is far more against a return.
It's not all that safe a place for people like me (mixed race black cis gender out lesbian, interracially married, obvious foreign (English RP) accent, and a very vocal, 'take no shit from racist bigoted assholes ever' attitude), especially with hundreds of millions of guns, and billions of rounds of ammunition floating about the US.
I am the only US citizen (via jus soli) in my entire nuclear family (I also hold UK and Swedish citizenships), so not a lot of gravitational pull to bring me back atm, especially if the SCOTUS undoes my marriage (for it being same sex and/or interracial).
hlthe2b
(113,973 posts)the generations to come--given the impacts ALL OF US have a role in creating that undermines education and communication--is going to have impacts well into the future. Not only for the individual but society. Your defensive and abusive call-outs as though it is only an illusion does NOTHING to help--just as the ostrich burying its head in the sand will never see the harm that may befall it.
Most on this thread do CARE. The question that I have is DO YOU? (or is your only goal to abusively call out older generations rather than to work WITH THEM)? If you so hate the older posters on this site then what is the point of being here? Thie post above is a clear example. You are far more intelligent than that. So, why?
Deny and deride or work to help. Your choice
Cirsium
(3,943 posts)It is much worse than I had imagined. First, we have bosses or their agents spouting the same old whiny dishonest complaints about workers that are always trotted out in management circles. I would hope that Democrats would be sympathetic to the workers in those scenarios, rather than pushing the most manipulative and exploitative management positions on the issue and to then disingenuously claim that you are just caring about the workers.
The article and this discussion remind me of discussions I have heard among whites about "what's wrong with the Black family?" followed by "we care" and "we are just trying to help" and "you can't deny that there is a problem." Then, if anyone should object to that paternalistic and condescending clap trap, then they are accused of being the aggressor and the "caring" people who were "just innocently having a discussion" portray themselves as victims.
Just look at these excerpts from that article:
"...this generation, which refers to people born between 1997 and the early 2010s, lacks a strong work ethic, struggles with communication, doesn't handle feedback well, and is generally unprepared for the demands of the workforce."
"They [Gen Z] don't know basic skills for social interaction with customers, clients, and co-workers, nor workplace etiquette..."
"...a lack of motivation from the employees, lack of professionalism, and poor communication skills..."
"...they often lack the practical, real-world experience and soft skills required to succeed in the work environment..."
"... overly reliant on parental support ..."
Celerity is 100% correct on this.
We are not attracting younger people here. We might want to listen to what a younger person has to say about this.
the article/its author did not say the things you quote; it described those things as comments from the managers responding to the survey; so it's the surveyed managers who said them, in the context of a survey in which they may have had limited space to respond.
I think we can all agree that broad-brush characterizations are unfair to individuals and yet can sometimes be worth making for discussion/exploration purposes.
And I think most of the oldsters here mean to complain more about the systems that produced younger generations with generally weaker writing skills, rather than to claim that all young people are stupid and lazy.
On the other hand, one thing I'm not sure I've seen articulated anywhere: us oldsters who were forced to care for ourselves and our siblings, contribute financially to the family, were kicked out of the nest, etc., all at a relatively young ages, and whose parents' child-rearing philosophy was along the lines of "suck it up" and "you must break the will of the child" – I think we perhaps understandably feel a bit of envy toward younger generations who appear to have been raised under apparently easier, more enlightened, supportive conditions (which may or may not actually have been "easier" in fact). This does not justify harsh judgments on younger generations, of course; it's just something that it might be good for us oldsters to recognize.
All of that said, my general impression remains that English language skills have gone down hill.
hlthe2b
(113,973 posts)You do have a history of contributing with thoughtful posts. These are not those.
Emrys
(9,101 posts)I'll kick off by saying that twice under this one OP you've told Celerity to "get a clue". That's utterly disrespectful and totally counterproductive. If it's a recent patronizing habit of speech you've adopted, I suggest you might be better ditching it ASAP.
Part of "helping" any younger generation, as you say you want to, is surely to LISTEN TO THEM. Part of incorporating them into working environments will involve adapting ways of work, as has happened with earlier generations of workers, including your own. "Helping" needs to be directed at older generations as well, a number of whom here are evidently struggling to understand these new developments.
So a member of that younger generation has the temerity to pipe up about alienation - their own and others' of a similar age - and you dismiss her out of hand. Was her initial post outspoken? Yes. Good. The age imbalance in this forum has been obvious for many years, and whenever anyone posts a poll asking for age characteristics, it's always an eye-opener how old this forum's members skew. That's just an observation, not a complaint, but if you see it as a cause for concern, entrenching and posting reply after reply criticizing younger generations in generalized terms isn't going to help address it, especially if any of them see the worst sorts of personal responses aimed at Celerity above.
I'll add that I'm technically a Boomer, though not a typical one. My whole adult professional life has been spent remedying others' written errors. There was the crusty bully of an ex-navy chief petty officer some 20 years older than me in my first office job who knew a bit about electronics but was incapable of writing a well-formed and correctly spelled sentence - not an asset in a technical publications firm, but sorting out his fuck-ups gave me a living till I got fed up with it and vowed never to work in an office again because the environment sucked. How Millennial of me. I went freelance and worked from home instead.
Then there have been a large number of mainly academic writers. The worst writers I've ever worked with have been medical doctors, not just in the prose they turned out, but because the process of resolving things in their texts that were unclear and replying to emails seemed beneath them. The second-worst have been certain professors - I've boggled at the idea that some of these people have been grading and providing guidance on students' work.
Luckily, a large number of those I've worked with have been very clever, competent and delightful, otherwise I'd have jacked this line of work in in years ago. But they have all - the good, the bad and the incomprehensible - until the last decade or so (now that I'm decrepit) mostly been older than me.
hlthe2b
(113,973 posts)They express this sincerely-- only to have the poster you refer to (and yourself, apparently) accuse them of simply "youth bashing." To do THAT without taking the full measure of the comments seriously is disingenuous. Those who do are not interested in helping, but as shown want to deride a large portion of DU. That DOES reflect the need to "get a clue." Does this apply to you too? You are defending this derision of one attacking others on this thread, yet cry out at being called out on that behavior by a simple "get a clue" admonishment. Good gawd.
To turn a sincere attempt to discuss a serious issue in our educational system and how society has reached out to the youth or not--especially post-COVID (and obviously will not, under MAGA) is serious. Yet, these dismissive comments show a refusal to even consider it seriously nor to be respectful of those on this thread trying to give the issue constructive discussion--including their own and others' responsibility to address it. And again, to those who promote and deride that discussion and those making it: get a clue!
D0 YOU care? Many here, myself included have many years of effort, albeit I don't think that is enough and believe the responsibility lies with all of us to address it. We have to pave a path for future generations and prepare them as much as possible for what is a very uncertain future. We do not deserve your contemptuous dismissals.
Emrys
(9,101 posts)If you lack the empathy to be able to place yourself in a younger person's shoes and imagine seeing the long trains of hypercritical replies above about the hopelessness of "the younger generation" and what your reaction might be, I'm extremely skeptical about your sincerity, that you care, and that you'll ever be able to interact helpfully with that younger generation, especially given the unjustified flaming you dished out to Celerity, who responded seriously to the OP and interjections and didn't deserve your scorn in return. Get a clue yourself!
Someone under this OP has been contemptuous, derisive, dismissive and a whole bunch of other unpleasant things and gone off on tirades because their fee-fees, and they imagine those of others, have been hurt, and it's not Celerity, myself or the others who've pointed out that hypercriticism of younger generations has been around for time immemorial.
My own reply above was not dismissive. It was a contribution based on my own experience that pointed out that talking about "the younger generation" (certainly not in the way you've displayed) is not as constructive as talking with them, and that involves listening to their concerns, needs and perspectives with a degree of respect, and also recognizing that poor levels of language expression are definitely not restricted to younger people, based on my 30-odd years of professionally hacking through verbage of various qualities.
Nor is dissatisfaction with current mainstream work environments and practices restricted to younger people. I described my own reaction and solution above. For example, many were very happy not to be forced to commute to a workplace every day during the COVID lockdowns. Where the work allows it, that's been an adaptation that the world and the environment, not to mention quite a number of people, have been crying out for for a long time. And the likes of Trump, who's not done a square day's work in his whole life, are determined that this cannot be tolerated and workers have to forced back to the old ways of doing things, for a variety of self-serving reasons.
NNadir
(38,051 posts)
msongs
(73,755 posts)geneeally one thinks most profs have a specific rubric for their class, and the grade is determined by
rubric checkmarks. makes grading less subjective. but it also reduces opportunity to give assignments that need analysis and opinion.
milestogo
(23,084 posts)I don't think you could have a forum that called blacks, whites, hispanics, gays, young people, women, or men fools. But you can have a forum dedicated to bashing a huge slice of the population based on age. A lot of it is complaining endlessly against MAGATs. And its a huge forum, with over 750,000 members.
I did check in once and said I was a boomer who was not a fool and of course they said I was the only one because ALL BOOMERS - i.e., their parents and friends, are fools.
So I think that maybe there is some kind of attitude which doesn't respect anyone who is older. I can't imagine ever talking that way about the generations that have gone ahead of me. I respected them so much.
reACTIONary
(7,165 posts)..... up until you're 30.
ReRe
(12,189 posts)It's sad to think of going through life with no respect for one's elders. I always thought it's just what one does. Like breathing or sleeping or drinking water or respecting one's elders. Just remember what Jiminy Cricket used to sing:
"I'm no fool, no sirree, I'm gonna live to be 103. I'm no fool."
Voltaire2
(15,377 posts)Mariana
(15,626 posts)against the racist, sexist, and environmentally destructive policies that were put in place by the generations who had gone ahead of you.
milestogo
(23,084 posts)and quite another to attack members of a certain age group.
snot
(11,804 posts)I honestly believe we'd all be so much better off treating every living creature with respect and openness to the possibility that they have something unique to contribute.
Gore1FL
(22,951 posts)I swear it'll be OK.
Orrex
(67,112 posts)And I suspect that many of these indignant business owners voted for the lazy, incompetent asshole who avoids work at every turn and spends most of his time on social media.
kimbutgar
(27,248 posts)This past Friday I had a class of 5th graders and told them if they didn’t finish one assignment they had to do it during the free fun Friday at the end of the day. 45 minutes of free time. I made a list and informed every student who hadn’t finished an assignment. They all finished though some did a half ass job. I just wanted them to experience consequences for not doing their work in school.
It is something everyone needs to do if to make sure you do your work and finish. That sense of completing a task is an important skil.
Work ethic is so important and kids gets a pass nowadays.
Javaman
(65,714 posts)...and basic sentence structure..
it's embarrassing.
cbabe
(6,648 posts)his staff how to write grammatically correct emails.
He was embarrassed by the level of communication going out to customers.
ProfessorGAC
(76,706 posts).. Grammarly, and let a computer rewrite everything.
Then, the bad writers will be hidden, but not improved.
snot
(11,804 posts)seems to have been written by engineers.
ProfessorGAC
(76,706 posts)I actually found the grammar "suggestions" in Word to be objectionable.
I ignored all that stuff about "passive voice" because technical reports are not about the writer. The voice should be passive. But, the software didn't understand that.
Same thing with project proposals involving ROIC & discounted rate of return. How would that even work in active voice?
Maybe it's smarter now, but I have my doubts.
William Gustafson
(553 posts)critical thinking, because they won't be able to. It will not be taught.
Bluethroughu
(7,215 posts)anxiety filled terrorist school shooting fast moving culture has produced. They are coping the best they can in this sick excuse for what is going on, NOTHING, to improve the health and welfare of a country's people.
They are the generation left behind, like x, but under intense self inflicted cultural violence.
I blame the Kochs, Theil, Crow, and all the other sick minded maniacs profiting off it all, while tearing it down.
rpannier
(24,925 posts)I think it's a universal problem.
I agree some of what you point out aggravates the problem. It seems to be a growing issue
I don't live in the U.S. and haven't for 25 years
My kids are university (1 daughter), high school (2 daughters), junior high (3 daughters) (yes, we have 6 girls), one is in the UK, the other 5 in Japan. All had part of their education in Korea.
We don't see the over-involved parents and easily upset children as much in Japan. But, in South Korea it's been bad for a while, and it continues to get worse. There is a video from about a year ago of a child throwing a temper-tantrum and swinging his backpack at the teacher because he wanted to leave school and the teacher wouldn't let him. Personally, I'd have dragged the bag out of the little twits hands, but as a friend of mine pointed out, his parents would have had a meltdown that I had pulled that bag from him.
Over zealous parenting is the norm in Korea. There have been numerous news stories of parents conspiring together to harass the teacher because they don't like him/her because they're not nice enough to their little gremlin. There was that teacher last year who became a lightning rod in Korea after she committed suicide. The news media showed some of the chat room texts these parents had been having, and they made me cringe at the way they conspired to harass her, and other teachers. One parent wanted a teacher to call their home in the morning to wake up their little troll in the morning.
Politicians do nothing but say how wrong it is because they want those parent votes.
I think part of the problem is, families are smaller now. I'm not advocating for families of 6 (like ours), or 2, or whatever.
But, I found that parents with only one child pour everything into him/her and if they fail, that's kind of it. Especially in Korea, and Japan, adult children are expected to help care for their elderly parents, if you have only one, and that child winds up in a marginal job, and you don't retire with a lot of money -- you're screwed.
Also, if you have to work two, or more, low wage jobs, you're not around them to assist your child much.
And with only one child, that is your baseline for behavior. With more than one, you get a wider look on behaviors.
Bluethroughu
(7,215 posts)Into tech and knowledge. The application of teaching knowledge is a system that has been overlooked for production and efficiency.
Kids are overworked like the parents.
In the US, we also have a violent culture added to efficiency and production for workers and children in school. This is why we have regular mass shootings.
We also have a political party making money off all the violence and trauma.
Our education problem is daily trauma, a brain can only handle so much. We have violent mass shootings regularly that effect everyone. PTSD, In my opinion.
snot
(11,804 posts)perhaps it becomes an ego project, and anything that reflects negatively on their kid is experienced by the parents as a threat?
On another of your points, see Marshall McLuhan's concept of the "Global Village" and one of its effects: that even though we might actually, statistically, be safer nowadays than a few decades ago, having continual news via the internet of every crime and catastrophe around the world might induce a state of nearly constant alarm. And I think there are studies that show that people tend to greatly overestimate the statistical odds of an array of negative events; e.g., you are much more likely to be killed by a lightening strike than by a school shooting or terrorist event.
SheltieLover
(80,486 posts)They are called The Anxious Generation.
nini
(16,830 posts)Enjoy those big spreadsheets etc. 
I love hearing how old farts like me have no clue about tech. I make them guess what my degree is in. Yes, Miss Daisy has a degree in computer science, junior. Ha
angrychair
(12,285 posts)I have serious doubts this article is accurate and I'm sure most here do too. I have kids in this age range and both are Eagles Scouts and one has his own business and the other is going to start his PhD in cellular and molecular biology next year.
Both are very hard workers and very good with people.
This trashing of young people is very reminiscent of the avocado toasting of millennials.
Renew Deal
(85,169 posts)Mostly conversations with people I know that run along the same lines.
angrychair
(12,285 posts)I've encountered a lot of people not good at their jobs and/or jaded or disconnected. I don't think GenZ have the market cornered on being bad at working.
Not to mention that most jobs suck. I just have a couple years until retirement and my biggest struggle is getting myself to give a shit sometimes. I'm at the top of my pay scale. I can't be promoted. At my age and so close to retirement why would I want to take on a harder job with more responsibility and more importantly who would hire me? My point in saying all this is that everyone can have a shitty day or be judged for not being wide open and hardcore all the time or just be jaded and burned out from a world that is literally falling apart around them.
Renew Deal
(85,169 posts)And “the world” is not the employers problem, nor the source of the criticism.
flamingdem
(40,898 posts)so these kids will look smart compared to what's coming next.
MichMan
(17,151 posts)How did people manage before that?
Cirsium
(3,943 posts)I heard the same discussions about "kids these days" back in the 60s.
Sympthsical
(10,969 posts)They can be a little weird about communication. Like knowing when they need to be communicating and knowing what's expected of them in that vein at jobs. Reaching out to let people know they need time off, asking questions when they're uncertain what to do, being able to self-motivate. Like, not showing up without telling anyone isn't a thing or calling out 5 mins before or an hour after the fact. Yeah, bosses aren't professors. They don't play around like that. And I do blame some of the education environments they're coming from where teachers and professors have gotten a lot more lenient for various reasons. Probably because if they weren't, a lot more of these students would be failing. I don't know where this "Extensions for everything always" mindset came from.
I had nursing clinical lately and just observed some of my classmates for awhile. Common behaviors were standing around unless otherwise instructed. Avoiding situations that stressed them out or confused them instead of seeking guidance and support.
My favorite by far was a classmate who was completely baffled she couldn't leave for a hair appointment in the middle of the day. Just didn't cross her mind that was not a thing. I mean, at least say it's a doctor's appointment or something, lol. But our supervisor just stared and blinked at her. She couldn't believe what she was hearing out of this student's mouth. "Well when am I supposed to get my hair done?!" I was sitting at the nurse's station watching all this and wishing I had popcorn.
However, the work ethic is there when instructed properly. I've encountered lots of hard workers - when they know what they're supposed to be doing. So I think management has to wrap their heads around that they can't make assumptions. They can't just be, "Go. Do things. Be productive." For example, you might have to walk them through your expectations of how they use their downtime.
TLDR: They seem to need a little bit more hand-holding, but when properly guided and motivated, they'll work as hard as anyone.
Docreed2003
(18,714 posts)My colleagues and I often comment on the fact that the current generation of students are "not like we were". They're not. They grew up in different circumstances and environments than we did and they do seem to require a bit more pointed direction in their work routine. It's just a different mindset, but, as you say, once corrected and having expectations laid out they seem to meet the moment.
lees1975
(7,046 posts)There are several issues that I've experienced in both categories that are similar to the issues in the posted article.
I thought the millennial generation presented some unique challenges. I would agree that both lack of motivation and a lack of understanding what "professionalism" even means, are two big issues with which I've had to contend, company respect and loyalty being a big part of the professionalism. Contracts, to some employees in this age group, are meaningless. And I've started to wonder if I'm the only employer who checks references from prior employers. The biggest problem I have is the number of employee days designated "leave without pay" because an employee has exceeded the allowable PTO limit. They don't understand that when they use up their paid time off, and get sick, they won't get paid for the days they miss. The professional staff are exempt, on salary, so their daily rate deducted from their paycheck turns into a big hole in their pay check. Keeping employees off the cell phone at work is also a huge problem.
Our professional staff has to have at least a B.A.. or B.S., and about a third of the information on the application is submitted in writing, so we can see their written communication skills. Spelling, punctuation, sentence structure are all issues I see on applications from people who have graduated from college. Critical thinking skills are also lacking. Problem solving is difficult for some of them, and they have difficulty drawing conclusions.
So far, the 3 Gen Z'ers I have on support staff, out of 14 employees, are doing OK. They have simple jobs, and phone control is a problem. But they are good employees, working their way through school and meeting expectations.
JI7
(93,617 posts)Voltaire2
(15,377 posts)I’ve got clouds to yell at. And drones.
no_hypocrisy
(54,908 posts)1. When I failed (miserably) my first exam in law school (torts), I immediately signed up for every available writing class the school offered. Composition, organization, writing style, etc. I finally learned how to compose a cogent title paragraph, which alone was "victory". If you can't write, you can't be an attorney. You can't depend upon your paralegal to clean up your mess.
2. I knew an attorney who edited and re-wrote every paper that his son had to hand in -- and the kid went to Columbia University. After my travails, I was thoroughly disgusted.
LizBeth
(11,222 posts)I think a big thing is that they expect a work life balance and are not loyal to a company and I get both of those positions. Especially law. Son was in a private law firm for two yrs made excellent money and said, not for me. Need more of that work/life balance nad was willing to drop 30k a yr to get it so he was doing living in late 20's, 30's.
tinymontgomery
(2,859 posts)the guy recommended for SecDef had his mother calling senators to help him get confirmed.
Bettie
(19,704 posts)work and are doing well at their jobs, so is the girlfriend of one of them.
Are there flakes? Sure there are, but they are not the norm.
My oldest is currently working at a grocery store while he attends college, he was made an assistant manager two months after he started. When he's at work he's 100% focused on work. He is sometimes frustrated with the high school kids who work there and the odd person who doesn't seem to understand schedules, but they are not the norm.
Same with middle child, who is a pharmacy tech (and graduated).
Youngest child works in the summer at the pool in town as a lifeguard. Diligent, in work mode at work.
Most of the people their ages I know are like this, not all, but when I was a young person entering the world of work, most worked hard, a few screwed around, and an even fewer were terrible and got fired a lot.
There is one difference though.
My kids work to live. Their jobs are not their entire lives. That's the problem the "hiring managers" have. They do their work and then they go home. Just another way to bash young people.
Same things were said about us Gen X people when we entered the workforce.
NNadir
(38,051 posts)I'm his admirer, and I admire most of his peers who I've met. The are highly educated, are facile learners, hard workers, and recognize that they will face crises not of their making as dire as any generation before them has ever faced.
Johnny2X2X
(24,210 posts)There's this idea that younger generations don't work hard and aren't as disciplined. When the reality is the world is much much less forgiving for young people than it was for Gen X and older.
I am older Gen X, it's like people in my generation have amnesia. I see it with the people I graduated from college with always talking about Gen Z and millenials being lazy and not driven, "Dude, I remember you in college man, you were drunk off your ass for 4 years and had to pull all nighters just to get through it."
Young people today are much more serious. They drink less. They have less sex. They study more. And for what? The idea they graduate and land a cushy job on their first try is gone, they now have to get 2 and 3 internships, they're now expected to carry higher GPAs, have more concrete plans for longer, and be extrememly focused on their end goal from the time they turn 15 unti they graduate college.
I went to private school. It wasn't hard to get through. I went to a really good Big Ten public University, muddled my way through, worked hard in spurts. Landed a good job, went back to night school for a Masters which was super easy, and ended up in a great spot in my career. I did all while never missing a party in high school or college. I did it all while making numerous mistakes that would be life changers to today's young adults, but because I grew up in the 80s and 90s were no big deal for my future. And you know what, so did most of the people I grew up with. I didn't split the freaking atom, I just basically skated by and got to a good end spot.
The older generations whining about young people is as old as time. But right now in America people seem to forget what we had and that we no longer have it. Boomers were able to skip college and get factory jobs that afforded them houses, cars, and even vacations and retirements. The ones who did go to college were handed the keys to the kingdom. Young adults today face climate crisis, and an economic system completely rigged against the lower 95%. And then the ones who were handed everything complain about the ones who they wrecked everything for.
NNadir
(38,051 posts)LizBeth
(11,222 posts)Facing a world we never did and so much more, just not enough coffee to do all the typing yet. But I love the younger generation.
I do see though they do not feel same loyalty older generations did and also insist on a more work/life balance and I respect both positions.
róisín_dubh
(12,337 posts)Many of my students were very brilliant, curious, hard-workers. Others saw me as a cashier, someone who they "paid" for a "service", therefore they deserved a good grade. Increasingly, universities also treated professors as cashiers. Many parents viewed us as the enemy.
I'm only 47 and I was relatable to my students (tattooed, generally knowledgable on pop culture, etc) to some degree. I don't look down upon the youngs, as I've got nieces and nephews who are that age. They're generally fun, even if they can be abrasively odd sometimes.
The issue of poor writing is not really new (my uncle has been complaining about this among his young employees since at least 2006). But it is really a problem. The inability or unwillingness to just read a fucking syllabus is also a massive problem, compounded by universities' insane required policy statements that have syllabi reaching 9 pages long (so I get it). I promise students that the answers are all there and that they are adults and they'll have to sort things out for themselves- I'm not asking students to discover a cure for cancer, just to read a syllabus and do what is on it. Some cannot manage that. Or deadlines. Or composing an email that doesn't sound like a text to their mate. I do forgive their bizarre social skills because, well, they're 18-22 and figuring stuff out. I was weird and awkward at that age too. But the basics of being at university? Nope, so I've started a business to help them. Hopefully next year it will be fully launched, because it really is a necessary service for the students as much as for frustrated professors and employers.
I don't teach much anymore (resigned my position for a number of reasons). The students were not the reason though (I do miss teaching, even if I am one of the olds).
snot
(11,804 posts)about the syllabus for your new business/course teaching "the basics of being at university"!
róisín_dubh
(12,337 posts)But having taught since 2008, and I still teach online and continue to work with college students, it’s composed of common struggles students have and how to overcome them (like, what the purpose is of actually going to class- because if it’s not explained to them, some really don’t know); or how studying for exams in college is very different than high school.
in2herbs
(4,390 posts)getagrip_already
(17,802 posts)Watch quiet quiting or lazy girl vids.
You will get what this generation is bathed in.
Work is for suckers. Money is owed to them. They are here for a good time, on your dime.
Prove me wrong.
NNadir
(38,051 posts)I've never been on it, and to my knowledge neither has by Gen Z son.
getagrip_already
(17,802 posts)And you can find short vids just like them on youtube, instagram and every other social media platform. Many have tik-tok watermarks.
But just because i dont live there doesnt mean i'm ignorant to the neighborhood.
NNadir
(38,051 posts)My point is that it is inappropriate to judge a generation based on what a subset with a filter, Tiktok, does.
There may be some members on that generation who are social media zombies, but this hardly characterizes the full population.
As a "Boomer" I am deeply ashamed of the world we created, and I know members of the rising generation who are pulling up there sleeves to clean up the mess of our irresponsibility. I wish them well and I know members who are seriously equal to the task, honorable, intelligent, hard working, well educated and subsumed with a sense of decency. I suspect few of them are on TikTok goofing off.
snot
(11,804 posts)is that younger generations have watched older ones knock themselves out for their employers for decades, working 50 - 70 hours per week, skipping vacation, etc., only to see their pensions looted and lose their jobs and company health insurance before reaching retirement.
For a while, we bought into the line that we just had to be more entrepreneurial, hustle harder, re-train etc., continuing to struggle financially while watching the 1% get fat as we doubled our productivity.
I think that phenomenon's a big part of the "quiet quitting" & the like.
ecstatic
(35,075 posts)in our organization isn't quite Gen Z--it's the youngest Millennials--ages 28 to 35--that are very high turnover due to a pattern of issues, mainly mental issues. Mood swings, frequent melt downs, a lot of weird accommodation requests, etc.
On the other hand, a young Gen Zer started a couple of months ago and she's doing really well. I'm not yet sure about the range of her writing skills, but she sends coherent emails. She's very mature for her age. I think gen z is the reason why republicans are so eager to remove history from the classrooms. Based on how Zees have been raised with the gun drills and Internet, they are moreso action-oriented and less likely to passively wait for change. When they see an injustice, they want to address it right away. I think we're going to see a lot more activism, some of which will involve violence as well.
thatdemguy
(620 posts)First I work for a commercial electrical contractor.
The 25% we fire is normally due to not being able to show up on time. Most are pretty good about phone use.
The 50% that quit is half and half. Some do it because they refuse to show up on time and quit when we give them their last chance before we fire them. The other half is ones that refuse to put their phone down and quit because we tell them to.
We had one that got caught hiding and using his phone. When we told him to leave his phone in the office on site he said no. He needed his phone with him with him to be able to see what his friends where doing during the day. I told him leave the phone in the office or his pocket or we would have to part ways, He spent the next two mins cussing me out. He told me he should not be expected to not be social with his outside of work friends while at work. I said we are paying you to work not be social with friends, thats when the cuss words started. He quit, he tried for unemployeement, his father called me. It was pretty comical over all.
snot
(11,804 posts)Oxycontin, and more wide-spread.
LisaM
(29,634 posts)When I feel guilty about asking my designated assistant for help (and have to visually get their attention) because they are wearing headphones or ear buds, this is a problem. I shouldn't have to work to get their attention and I shouldn't have to feel guilty.
I actually got obsessed with this for a while and read every article I could find about this, trying to see both sides of this issue. Of all the generational divides, this is the biggest one to me in the workplace. The claim is that having music on (or whatever they are listening to) helps them focus and pay attention to their task, but it does not foster a shared work environment. It also gives the appearance of being unapproachable for requests.
I also get bugged when I get draft emails or letters where each paragraph only has one sentence, but at least I can fix that.
On all counts.
I like the rule in which the person standing in front of you gets priority over all other claims on your attention (including actual phone calls).
And that one-sentence paragraph thing (as I write one, but) – yes; I see it all the time in articles these days, and it's ridiculous.
LogDog75
(1,301 posts)It also has to do with education, training, and company policy.
Parents tend to be "helicopter" parents hovering around every aspect of their kid's life. If a kid makes a mistake or fails, the parent is there to correct it. Instead, they should help the kid to recognize what and why it happened and have the kid decide how to correct it in the future. Parents need to teach their kids the value of work and what it takes to succeed.
The educational system teaches kids what they need to know but very little real-life skills on what to expect when they enter the workforce. I agree that teachers have enough on their plates but their courses could be tailored what is expected in the workplace.
Training encompass what the job is and how it is done. It should also encompass the values of the company they're working for and what exactly is expected.
Company policy should spell out exactly what they expect from their employees. Items such as being on time, communications (written and oral) within the company, teamwork, etc...
One thing the military does well is they train people from all walks of life, socioeconomic backgrounds, religions, etc. and gets them to work together efficiently. A company can do this on a small scale if they're willing to take the time, energy, and resources to do so.
The Revolution
(895 posts)Worse than our grandparents’ generation, our
parents’ then produced us, even worse,
and soon to bear still more sinful children.
So nothing new under the sun.
I'm on the boarder of Gen X & Millennial. I can discuss anecdotal issues I had with older workers.
For example, while working in software testing, one of the things we had to do every day was copy files between different systems (Windows/UNIX/Linux). The older folks could never grasp how to do this, no matter how often they did it or how often it was explained. I had to write out exact step by step instructions to follow in various scenarios.
But if something went wrong, they couldn't problem solve it. Like if they had a typo, it might say "file not found". They would just come to me and say it wasn't working. It never occurred to them that the error message might provide a clue that they typed the name wrong.
snot
(11,804 posts)the number of malapropisms, grammatical errors, and mispronunciations I hear nowadays even on NPR – and not inconsequential ones, but ones that sometimes completely distort the likely intended meaning.
And I doubt it's possible to think clearly when one can't articulate ideas clearly.
Renew Deal
(85,169 posts) 
Elessar Zappa
(16,385 posts)every generation talks about how the young folk don’t want to work and don’t have the skills that are needed. You can read articles in the 19th century saying the same thing. Another thing, my dad’s a teacher (since the 70’s) and says the kids these last ten years have been some of the best in a while. He says that bullying is much less of a problem due to anti-bullying programs when children are young. He also says that kids know how to express their thoughts on paper better than previous generations. He thinks it’s due to tweeting, blogging, Facebook, etc. Again, all of this could be my dad imagining things rosier than they are but the point remains.
hlthe2b
(113,973 posts)and among others, are worthy of all the respect and admiration we can give. Thus, exceptions to every case and example. But there is no denying the lack of focus on writing more than abbreviated and nongrammatical texts on social media--with a failure to see that no high school student graduates without the ability to write in a manner that can convey the point they are attempting to get across in many schools-- is a problem. Perhaps some may think they can get by on AI anyway. To the extent that might be true, I find that a dismal thought. But, of course that is not everyone nor everywhere.
rasputin1952
(83,497 posts)and I have been watching this for quite some time.
First and foremost, the constant attention to "screen time" has resulted in some serious injuries and deaths.
When I lived in Boston, if driving, you were in a near-constant state of panic. I learned to drive in NYC, but I have never seen the likes of what I saw in Boston. Between the morons who have nothing better to do than blare their horns, cut you off without notice, and a great deal of somewhat younger people gazing mindlessly at cell phones, I have to wonder how many will survive.
When I would go to the Radio Station at one of the premier colleges of the area (there are a LOT of colleges in Boston) I would be the first one in on Sunday mornings. My show runs from 0600-1000 (Eastern), I'd go in at 0500, set up, then spend time cleaning up messes from the week before. There were trash and recycle bins feet from where I would pick up food items that were stale (or worse, moldy) and then "take out the trash" out to the bins not yards from the back entrance. Some of these people were Seniors. Going to their first job was going to be a very rude encounter.
I'm not sure where any "blame" lies, but it appears to me that simple common courtesy has taken a steep dive.
My son gave me a gift on Christmas, a book, Dad, I Want to Hear Your Story, pretty cool, but I told him it would take me some time to fill in the pages and there would be a boatload of Appendices, as there is not a lot of room to drop almost 73 years into the small "diary" and quite a few things require further explanation.
He's a fantastic son, and his family is top of the line. I owe him this, as I never got to know my own father, as he died after 5 years of slow-moving colon cancer when I was 13 (on the Fourth of July no less).
He's honest, compassionate, empathetic, as smart as a whip (just how smart is that?).
Life is complex, PTSD and Chronic Depression don't do me a lot of good, but I think this book will be therapy. I'll tell the truth, explain some of the more difficult things, and hope he will remember not to make some of the errors I have made. This, I hope, will be passed down to my Middle-School Grandson.
One good thing already, is that he knows where trash and recycling goes!
I did something right...
Vinca
(53,994 posts)if they come in last? I haven't paid much attention to it since I'm not in contact with them in any kind of work-related way. I do know there came a time when it seemed kids never played outside anymore. I always blamed video games and cellphones, but maybe it was overprotective parents.
lanlady
(7,229 posts)I was a "band mom" with two kids who played instruments in high school and college. I'll never forget the parents down the street from us who thought their kid was the best clarinetist since Benny Goodman and were outraged when a music faculty member didn't give their son, a college freshman, first or second chair clarinet in orchestra. The mom actually called the music department to protest and complain. The parents told me this story looking for my sympathy but I told them their kid was an adult and needed to learn to deal with life's disappointments -- maybe he'd make first chair later in his college career. They never spoke to me again. Oh well 