General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsI REMEMBER DU
Last edited Fri Dec 14, 2012, 08:13 PM - Edit history (2)
It was never, ever, EVER like this.
Can we clean house now, please?
Can we return to a basic understanding of right and wrong?
Here's a litmus test: anyone who posted the story about the Chinese guy with the knife in order to mitigate the damage to their raison d'etre...GONE.
For openers.
(on edit: I do not mean anyone who posted the story because it is news...I mean anyone who posted it to say "Durr Hurr see, other things kill people too, Hurr"...and you know who the fuck you are)
I remember DU, and THIS ain't it. I am AMAZED at what is tolerated, even today. Even today. Especially today.
I remember DU.
Do you?
(cross-posted in Meta...go ahead and lock it...I remember DU)
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2on2u
(1,843 posts)
hfojvt
(37,573 posts)2on2u
(1,843 posts)morningfog
(18,115 posts)This is a Democratic site. It is time to, as a party, step up and no longer allow such dangerousness and offensiveness in OUR party.
Arugula Latte
(50,566 posts)
99Forever
(14,524 posts)
Happyhippychick
(8,422 posts)
RetroLounge
(37,250 posts)Close the gungeon and ban the NRA asshats
RL
kestrel91316
(51,666 posts)Logical
(22,457 posts)to be on their Board, then you know they are idiots. Any support of the NRA should be locked.
morningfog
(18,115 posts)Logical
(22,457 posts)morningfog
(18,115 posts)Logical
(22,457 posts)morningfog
(18,115 posts)Logical
(22,457 posts)morningfog
(18,115 posts)There are some good threads if you cared about more than fucking your toys.
Logical
(22,457 posts)morningfog
(18,115 posts)WilliamPitt
(58,179 posts)Logical
(22,457 posts)WilliamPitt
(58,179 posts)If not, it's just really sad.
morningfog
(18,115 posts)You too blinded by your paranoia, your fear, and probably your hate. You care more about a weapon than the consequence of your culture. I do not care at all how you feel, what you think or what approaches you will inevitably dismiss. You are on the wrong side of this. You can not be educated or reasoned out of your problem. Only you can step up and grow as a person. Like I said, you are a part of the problem, generally and here at DU.
SkyDaddy7
(6,045 posts)with America being so damn dumb when it comes to science?
I like this logic!!!
morningfog
(18,115 posts)Time to dance with your toys while children bleed.
LanternWaste
(37,748 posts)If that means I'm part of your little imaginary problem with my faith and my college degree both worn proudly, I'm kinda o-kay with that. 
cleanhippie
(19,705 posts)Think differently from me, feel the purge.
Sounds more like Freerepublic than DU.
SkyDaddy7
(6,045 posts)Otherwise why continue crying about stuff you have no control over?
morningfog
(18,115 posts)Calling for an end to this nonsense and calling for the beginning of strong gun control is crying?
And why are you are so easy to concede defeat?
Spitfire of ATJ
(32,723 posts)Namely, let the asshats have their guns,...just no bullets.
JimDandy
(7,318 posts)Let them blungeon each other with them.
godai
(2,902 posts)Logical
(22,457 posts)
Lex
(34,108 posts)Let's get started and quit cowering.
Logical
(22,457 posts)You make silly simple minded statements like 'remove guns from people' with no actual implementable plans to do it.
How do you remove gun from the 150 million gun owners? Knock on their door and ask for the gun? What basis?
Name 10 senators who would introduce a bill to remove guns from legal gun owners.
Emotion is not a thought process.
Response to Logical (Reply #114)
godai This message was self-deleted by its author.
dchill
(42,660 posts)Make it illegal to discharge any weapon.
Imprison offenders.
Three sensible steps.
Logical
(22,457 posts)
Chemisse
(31,339 posts)Why not just tighten the regulations from this day forward? Do back up checks on everybody (close the gun show loophole), require people to keep their weapons out of the hands of people who have not passed that kind of check, and ban semi-automatics.
It will take time to solve the problem, but at least it would be a first step.
Logical
(22,457 posts)be huge. And a nut would obtain a semi-auto. But you are right, in 100 years it might be much better.
Chemisse
(31,339 posts)But maybe we could offer buy backs, or trade ins for different guns.
The criminals will always find a way to get guns, but those who are mentally ill may not have the same resources to get access. They are not as likely to have the contacts and also may not have the mental organization skills to pursue hard-to-find weapons.
AlexSatan
(535 posts)"Less than 1% of firearms will ever be used in the commission of a crime."
"93% of guns used in crimes are obtained illegally (i.e., not at gun stores or gun shows)."
I'm not sure your solutions will have much impact.
Kalidurga
(14,177 posts)10000 deaths a year are ok as well?
AlexSatan
(535 posts)No more than 750,000 aggravated assault crimes per year are acceptable.
We should make laws which make them illegal, right?
Kalidurga
(14,177 posts)so what is your solution. The status quo?
AlexSatan
(535 posts)I don't have a solution to prevent it.
Making it illegal will not stop it.
Outlawing guns will not make guns go away from the hands of criminals.
I have no problem with a week waiting period. I don't have a problem with psych evals. Registration for everyone would not be Constitutional since one reason why have guns is to prevent the gov't from ignoring the Constitution.
UndahCovah
(125 posts)"Make it illegal"
"Make it illegal"
How? Somebody pointed out that only a handful of senators would even attempt to introduce such a bill, and even so it would never make it out of committee.
The phrases "make it illegal" and "start with one gun at a time" are kind of pointless due to the legal process required--you can't wave a magic wand.
I personally believe that we need to stop raging bad and forth over guns-goodvsguns-bad for now. It is a topic that requires logical consideration, and nobody, NOBODY is capable of rational thought so soon after what happened today.
Those kids were 5 years old. They still believed in santa. For now, that right there is enough to overwhelm me...Their parents have holiday gifts for them in the closet. Imagine the parents of those kids, standing in their child's bedroom, looking at the dirty laundry on the floor that always exasperated them... There are tears dripping on my keyboard, I can't even start to think about political ramifications or anything else....God have mercy....
plantwomyn
(877 posts)Did a bit on this BS the other night.
"NOBODY is capable of rational thought so soon after what happened today."
How long do we wait before we ARE capable of rational thought?
A week? A month?
How long has it been since there has NOT been a violent gun death of an innocent child in this county for over a week?
It is getting to the point now that even massacres are happening on a weekly basis.
Waiting for a time when there HASN'T been a tragedy has become impossible. And therefore a straw man argument.
And don't flame me as anti-gun. I own more than one. I also have NO problem taking full responsibility for how they are used, who uses them.
fightthegoodfightnow
(7,042 posts)The notion we should all calm down is EXACTLY why we are in this situation today....indifference....until it happens again.
Time to act is now. In their honor. To give meaning to their lives.
If you can't distinguish between reckless dangerous guns used not for sport but for terrorism, then I suspect you are indeed incapable of rational thought. Don't be surprised if the response is to take away all guns even if I disagree with that.
reACTIONary
(7,158 posts)Conceptually it is simple. It takes time, but as time goes on - less guns, guns are less popular and they eventually become contained.
You start by progressively restricting the sale of guns and accessories. Large capacity magazines, etc. Restrict ammunition sales. Then further restrictions on the type of weapons, especially handguns. Semi automatic handguns, or double action guns, etc. Keep eliminating and restricting the sale of ever widening categories.
Progressively restrict rifles - First assault rifles, however you might want to arbitrarily define them. This is like restricting cigarette to plain generic packaging. It makes the product less attractive, less fun, harder to market. Eventually get rid of automatic rifles altogether. Just single shot bolt action "hunting rifles".
Raise the bar on licensing, carrying, transporting and storing them, and start to be more aggressive about enforcement.
As more and more restrictions encumber ownership and make it harder and harder to market and sell guns, less will be sold and the number of guns will eventually start to decrease and they will circulate less. Rather than buy new guns, older guns will be resold and the number per capita will go down. Guns are less and less popular anyway - as the population becomes more dense and urban, fewer and fewer people will even bother. Younger folks will loose interest and older folks will fade away.
Eventually, pass a law that gun enthusiasts must keep their guns locked up at a registered gun range or hunting lodge. Even fewer folks will want them, own them or worry about them. They will be contained, restricted and generally - but not completely - prohibited. Good enough for government work.
tritsofme
(19,886 posts)Not a problem at all!
And if anyone dissents, we can just jail them or something...
MNBrewer
(8,462 posts)reACTIONary
(7,158 posts)...by an activist judiciary. The court did not establish an unrestricted and absolute right of anyone and everyone to own any and all weapons, and they clearly limited the rational to "self defense within the home". That leaves a lot of room for restrictions, bans, and encumbrances.
For instance, restricting gun ownership to a single shot 22 caliber pistol painted bright international orange that can only be transported outside the home disassembled might be good enough to pass constitutional muster. Along with onerous and expensive licensing requirements. It might also be possible to put further restrictions on households with children.
As far as dissent is concerned, dissent is protected by the first amendment. Dissent all you want. If you actually do break the law, however, you are subject to punishment and that is quite reasonable and just.
kooljerk666
(776 posts).........pay people to rat out clip hoarders & sales.
This is kind of reasonable & even allows old school front line combat weapons such as a .45 Colt pistol or M-1 Garand.
One problem is even if this punk only had revolvers, with a bunch of speed loaders he could killed just as many people.
Even 150 year old percussion cap pistols are brutally deadly, they just take 2 minutes to reload, so there is no real solution other than total outlawing all guns.
AlexSatan
(535 posts)like we removed all of the illegal drugs!
DisgustipatedinCA
(12,530 posts)Can't you see that the vast majority of people here have no use for your utterances and legalistic theories in support of murder weapons on a day when Kindergartners were lined up and shot through the head. WHAT THE FUCK IS WRONG WITH YOU? WHAT THE FUCK IS WRONG WITH YOU? WHAT THE FUCK IS WRONG WITH YOU?
proud2BlibKansan
(96,793 posts)
llmart
(17,588 posts)Even on a thread where we're calling for getting these idiots off DU, we end up with this. And on a day like today no less.
Pitiful excuse for a human being and we have to have it on DU???
Squinch
(59,453 posts)
underseasurveyor
(6,428 posts)
baldguy
(36,649 posts)Logical
(22,457 posts)said my rights to own guns are being attacked. Just ONE?
If you are correct it should be easy for you!
Want a link to some posts where I TRASH the NRA? I have many.
morningfog
(18,115 posts)heaven05
(18,124 posts)baldguy
(36,649 posts)The easy availability of guns is anathema to a free society.
keroro gunsou
(2,305 posts)easy access to weapons and little access to proper mental health care is the bane of a free and safe society.
baldguy
(36,649 posts)So it stands to reason that the RW pushes for free guns & expensive healthcare.
wyldwolf
(43,891 posts)robinlynne
(15,481 posts)
lbrtbell
(2,389 posts)I don't like it when people disagree with me, but I'll defend to the death their right to an opinion.
There is no "litmus test" to be a Democrat. We Democrats have a wide range of views, and that's where we get our strength and inclusiveness.
If we're going to expect people to march in lockstep with a certain set of views, we'd be no better than Republicans.
You want to know the DU that I remember? The DU where people could debate freely.
morningfog
(18,115 posts)but we don't have to tolerate dangerous and archaic bullshit. They can have their opinion. I would prefer they have it on other gun-humping sites.
Ter
(4,281 posts)...But you can be pro-life here, or at the very least anti-Roe vs. Wade.
Laura PourMeADrink
(42,770 posts)Squinch
(59,453 posts)Debate it all you want. After the conversation is over, 20 babies will still be dead, and anything that could possibly be said pales next to that fact.
No one has the right to take a gun and shoot up a bunch of 5,6,7 and 8 year olds. Someone has done that. We need to do whatever needs to be done to prevent that from happening again. And that means restricting guns.
And I don't really care to hear any more idiotic "spoons kill people" arguments. I've heard them all. They're stupid.
lbrtbell
(2,389 posts)This shooter, like all shooters, could make weapons as deadly as guns.
Banning guns won't stop these crimes. If you're serious about wanting to stop the crimes, then you'll see that people with severe mental health issues are the ones committing these crimes.
They need treatment BEFORE they get to the point where they'll pick up a gun OR go online to find instructions on making a bomb OR burning down a building full of kids, or whatever. If the person can't be treated, he/she needs to be taken off the streets for everyone's protection.
Until you do something about the source of these crimes--the murderers--they will never stop.
And until you, personally, start talking about the source of these crimes--severely mentally ill people--you're part of the problem.
Squinch
(59,453 posts)and somewhere you know it. The solution to gun slaughter is not the eradication of mental illness. Spew your nonsense all you want, it still doesn't make any sense.
Now go on. Tell me all about the spoons, and the cars that kill people, and the guy in China. Tell me all about your talking points. Show us all exactly who you are.
And after you have shown us all exactly who you are, 20 babies and 8 adults will STILL be dead. Killed by a the child of someone who no doubt thought of herself as a responsible gun owner.
All those responsible guns out there are just as deadly.
Go ahead, now. Spin, spin, spin.
laundry_queen
(8,646 posts)
wtmusic
(39,166 posts)patrice
(47,992 posts)ThatPoetGuy
(1,747 posts)Please, please, please.
Squinch
(59,453 posts)
NRaleighLiberal
(61,839 posts)Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)The gungeon is nothing but a right-wing incubator. I dunno how many of the regulars in there fall under it that schema, but as a whole, it's a place for John Birch and NRA bullshit to ferment and cycle around.
Lance and drain the boil and apply some good antibiotics.
villager
(26,001 posts)...has been somewhat.. astonishing.
ThatPoetGuy
(1,747 posts)Let's close the Gungeon, and ban the NRA propagandists.
TransitJohn
(6,937 posts)just saw someone call an American citizen due the full guarantees and benefits of the Constitution a "jihadist"....straight out of Pam Geller hate speech.
villager
(26,001 posts)...i.e., the marked lack of empathy or compassion that such style of posting routinely implies.
"Let me repeat the (fill in blank) talking point I've been so well-versed in, while putting you down, to boot."
Really, they are the DU version of Dittoheads.
DoBotherMe
(2,350 posts)Dana ; )
JuniperLea
(39,584 posts)I told you this place was a cesspool.
Democracyinkind
(4,015 posts)Thank you!
Paladin
(32,354 posts)shitcan them all
Arugula Latte
(50,566 posts)loyalkydem
(1,678 posts)I been blocking and banning people from my facebook page who post that ridiculous story
Whisp
(24,096 posts)it's okay now on DU as well.
I think blatant homophobia and holocaust denying still gets attention.
but most everything else is a Road Warrior DU3 Edition.
nolabear
(43,850 posts)It's here, but the search gets increasingly exhausting and I often think of giving up.
Hang with me, Will. Or go pioneering and let me know if you find anything.
WilliamPitt
(58,179 posts)will they pry this place from me.
Worth fighting for.
renie408
(9,854 posts)It is astonishing to me that some of the most heated debates on gun ownership I have ever gotten into were HERE.
And I live in South Carolina.
Robb
(39,665 posts)I heard it while dropping off my daughter at school. It tore my heart out to imagine.
My heart got torn out more later.
Litmus that.
upaloopa
(11,417 posts)Something pro gun today which wasn't my intent. I have left DU several times because it pissed me off. You were the second one to welcome me back in 2001.
I paid for your star once when you said you were broke I remember back then
99Forever
(14,524 posts)AldoLeopold
(617 posts)But I heartily agree. I thought this was an American liberal website - and I see too many conservative talking points on a multitude of subjects.
If I wanted to hear that crap, I would go to Free Republic or Fox News, or in my town here in Hot Springs, talk to somebody - anybody.
Curmudgeoness
(18,219 posts)Stick around and don't let the conservative talking points get to you.....and when they do, just read all the posts telling them to go to hell. This is the best place to keep up with liberal ideas and ideals, even if you have to wade through shit to get there.
Hang in there. We need more people like you.
AldoLeopold
(617 posts)lbrtbell
(2,389 posts)It's Democratic Underground. Some Democrats are moderates (like me), and some are conservative.
I don't own a gun, nor do I wish to. But when people start saying others should be "purged" for an opinion, that's when witch hunts begin.
wilt the stilt
(4,528 posts)People who have been here a long time like Mr. Pitt agree.
Bluenorthwest
(45,319 posts)Mission Statement
Democratic Underground is an online community where politically liberal people can do their part to effect political and social change by:
•Interacting with friendly, like-minded people;
•Sharing news and information, free from the corporate media filter;
•Participating in lively, thought-provoking discussions;
•Helping elect more Democrats to political office at all levels of American government; and
•Having fun!
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=aboutus
AldoLeopold
(617 posts)If it ends up a witch hunt, then I'm okay with that.
I'm not really in for half-measures at this point. Its not my job to witch hunt, but if it should happen on its own, then I won't stand in its way. For my own personal opinion, this isn't a site for people who support anything but complete repeal of the 2nd amendment and collection of the guns. That premise is what I will act upon when necessary as I frequent the site. Every other DUer will have to make up his or her own mind as to how they want to handle the issue and the community can decide as a whole how to handle the issue.
There's all sorts of counter arguments to that, but I'm not really interested in hearing them. I don't normally close my ears to argument, but this is different.
hfojvt
(37,573 posts)I think we have to be prepared to fight those conservative talking points. We need to fight them on the beaches. We should fight them on the landing grounds and in the fields and in the street and in the hills. We should never surrender or run away.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1240&pid=105330
Only a fool leaves an enemy at his back. In my mind, though perhaps not in many's, this discussion is closed. Get the guns. Do it now, and to heck with those who say otherwise.
When you're faced with a crisis, you simply don't sit around and smack your gums about it. The best thing DU could do right now is shut that forum down. Its a symbolic gesture. For what its worth, its a gesture of support for those people out in Ct and everyone else who has been a victim of these shootings.
If we're going to fight those conservative talking points - its should be outside of this forum, not within it. That's my opinion.
hfojvt
(37,573 posts)By purging dissenting opinions, you basically answer their talking points with "shut up, fuck off, go away".
Which does not seem to me like a very convincing argument. When somebody comes here with a rightwing idea, like, for example, support for the FairTax, then why not get some practice refudiating that bad idea, like so http://journals.democraticunderground.com/hfojvt/55
Happyhippychick
(8,422 posts)Logical
(22,457 posts)Happyhippychick
(8,422 posts)Logical
(22,457 posts)Happyhippychick
(8,422 posts)baldguy
(36,649 posts)Response to Logical (Reply #39)
Post removed
Jakes Progress
(11,213 posts)Because your NRA friends will now gin up more gun confiscation scares and make it harder for you to get some more toys?
Because someone might be logical and decide to stop selling bullets like candy corn?
Because dead children might just make your "rights" a little less joyful?
Logical
(22,457 posts)People like you don't think, just react. Here are some of my NRA posts. Read them and then apologize! I doubt you are classy enough to do it.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1002574238#post2
http://www.democraticunderground.com/117285909
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=1928176
http://www.democraticunderground.com/117286008
Jakes Progress
(11,213 posts)Anyone who would want to promote more guns on a forum like DU would, of course, say a few nasty things about NRA. With a handy snicker at how gullible the liberals are.
Supporting NRA principles and viewpoints while occasionally saying something bad about the organization is inconsistent and obvious.
Logical
(22,457 posts)Democracyinkind
(4,015 posts)whatever...
Response to Logical (Reply #25)
WilliamPitt This message was self-deleted by its author.
morningfog
(18,115 posts)Logical
(22,457 posts)morningfog
(18,115 posts)I also don't know the count, it could have been 3-3 each time. Like I said, DU is awash in such filth.
Logical
(22,457 posts)
ProfessorGAC
(76,635 posts)And, i'd NEVER vote to block a gun thread. The hosts could move it to the gungeon, and maybe they should.
But, you didn't think your post through. Lots of us here don't own guns, but would never vote to delete a post or purge anyone for their opinion about gun ownership.
You may be mad at Logical right now, but that doesn't mean you get to cast aspersion on any juror who wouldn't decide to purge someone for their opinion.
If you want to insult him, go ahead and have at it. But, don't insult people who aren't even part of your fight.
morningfog
(18,115 posts)I take that point. A juror may take an "non-intervention" approach or leave it for a variety of reasons. I think the positions and the framing attempted are wrong for DU. Just like a jury can leave for any reason they can hide for any reason. I would have hidden because I find it as an inappropriate attempt to re-frame the tragedy and a distraction from the issue. You can't be neutral on a moving train.
3-3 vote to keep a first-posting "China 22 kids knife attack" troll shit post.
And it is troll shit. Pathetic.
SunSeeker
(58,250 posts)
Hissyspit
(45,790 posts)Although I guess it could be the same person with different user name.
That poster has been PPR'd, too. Jury voted 3-3 to allow comment to stay, but poster was PPR'd nonetheless.
Logical
(22,457 posts)Once again, I ask you to stop just posting to post and explain how you stop a LONE gunman from going nuts and killing people with a legally purchased gun.
Let me remind you, guns are legal to manufacture, sell, purchase and possess in this country.
Just like this shooters guns were legally purchased!
And 300 million guns are in the USA.
How about stopping people from WANTING to kill people.
Keep posting, I will keep replying!
renie408
(9,854 posts)You make it impossible to own guns that fire six bullets a second?
You have a BRILLIANT point. Make gun ownership less legal.
Logical
(22,457 posts)lbrtbell
(2,389 posts)There are instructions for making them all over the internet. So let's ban the internet while we're at it.
And a woman in Arizona tried to run over a man with her car, so let's ban cars. And China has been plagued with nearly a dozen men stabbing innocent school children in different parts of that country for the past few years.
Yes, it IS relevant, because it's proof that killers WILL kill even if they can't get guns. But anti-gunners don't want to hear that kind of logic, because it scares them to think that their no-gun utopia would still be filled with psychos.
Can't we knock off the pro-gun and anti-gun nonsense long enough to discuss how we should deal with severely mentally ill people BEFORE they choose ANY weapon to harm or kill others?
kestrel91316
(51,666 posts)taken and used to commit murder.
I have reconsidered my recent opposition to the DP. I'm back on board with it for negligent gun owners whose negligence results in murder.
Logical
(22,457 posts)kestrel91316
(51,666 posts)I support it for gun negligence that results in murder.
Because I am COMPLETELY DONE with coddling gun nuttery.
Logical
(22,457 posts)AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)Is your (perhaps single) deviation from a progressive issue slate ban-worthy, or is mine?
Codeine
(25,586 posts)That is a profoundly stupid statement that you will feel stupid about posting after a few days.
ragemage
(107 posts)So explain to me why it is legal to purchase an assault weapon? Semi automatic assault weapons are legal, I know. And anyone who can get the most basic gun permit can buy them...but you ask yourself...why? What is the purpose of these weapons? If this guy did not have it, would he have killed so many so quickly? Sure you may say yes with handguns...but he did not do it with just handguns. What sane reason is there for the average citizen to own an assault type weapon? And please don't post about 2nd amendment rights and NRA rants...If this guy was stopped from getting the legally purchased weapon would so many children be dead today?
Logical
(22,457 posts)assault rifle and a hunting rifle in shooting people.
ragemage
(107 posts)Standard hunting rifle is single shot, reload, shoot again. Maybe 6 to 7 rounds in a standard rifle (think Winchester 30/30). Assault rifle is semi-automatic...keep pulling trigger until magazine is empty. Insert next magazine. Usually a 30 round mag is standard. Agree in the end it is the same. However the assault rifle makes it oh so much easier.
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)his rifle was found in his car, so he apparently didn't use it in the school, since he killed himself in the school.
Of course, maybe there's some fog of war here and he had two rifles. I don't know. But from the story breaking, forward, the only consistent point on his weapons was two pistols (A glock and a sig sauer, reported VERY early in the day).
Edit: May have been two pistols and two rifles (one on him, one in the car). News reports are unclear.
godai
(2,902 posts)morningfog
(18,115 posts)morningfog
(18,115 posts)Logical
(22,457 posts)morningfog
(18,115 posts)Logical
(22,457 posts)morningfog
(18,115 posts)Logical
(22,457 posts)renie408
(9,854 posts)explain why Americans are 19.5 times more likely to die from guns than someone from another industrialized country? Explain why those of us whose egos are not attached to their weapons should have to live with the consequences of those whose are? And explain why, if we all agree that the prevalence of guns in this country is part of the problem, we should all just shrug our shoulders and not TRY to curtail the ownership of these weapons?
Because it would be HARD to fix? Really?
Logical
(22,457 posts)I agree 100% on we need to solve the question of why we are such a violent country. Many countries have a lot of guns without our gun problems.
I have never said "we need to keep our guns" and you will not find a post where I say anything close to that.
I have said how do you stop a lone nut from killing 10-30 people with a gun when there are 300 million legally owned guns? There is no way. The only solutions is to collect all 300 million guns. Which I say will NEVER happen.
Why is that not very simple. You cannot stop the problem at this point.
renie408
(9,854 posts)Are you kidding??
Your answer is to just shrug and say, "oh well"?? Can we change the culture of guns over night? No.
Did your parents litter or smoke when you were growing up? Mine did. I can remember my father chunking stuff out the window all the time as we drove down the road. And he and my mother both smoked like chimneys. But over time, those things have become less and less prevalent through education on the one hand and education and punishment on the other. If we really started to work at conquering violence, and gun violence in particular, in 40 years maybe we won't have the highest homicide rate in the industrialized world.
primavera
(5,191 posts)... what do people who champion private gun ownership propose to do about the 30,000 Americans who die every year using the weapons that they champion?
It seems to me that the ball is in your park. Personally, I have a simple solution: follow the example of the civilized, developed nations of the world and regulate the hell out of personal firearms. It's a tried and tested solution that has worked for every other country that has adopted it. Gun owners are the ones who do not wish to see their access to their deadly toys restricted. Gun owners are the ones who want guns. You want them? Fine. You come up with a way to stop the killings with their beloved toys.
Yet one never hears any such proposals coming from the gun community. All one ever hears is excuses, how such and such can't be done, or it wouldn't accomplish anything, or it infringes upon their precious RKBA, or it's not their fault, it's all the fault of criminals and bad apples whom everyone agrees "should never have been allowed to have a gun in the first place." Except, of course, the day before that "bad apple" shot up a school yard, s/he was a "law abiding, responsible firearm owner" whose right to own and use that firearm the gun community fought to protect. You guys need to once and for all own up to the fact that what you are fighting for includes access to lethal weapons by persons who have no business having them. You are the ones preserving these people's access to lethal weaponry. You are the ones supporting the NRA and its fearsome army of lobbyists, the ones who are voting against candidates who support responsible gun control legislation, the ones who support laws to keep these weapons of mass destruction freely and widely available with no constraints. Fine, you want these atrocities out in our communities? Then it's your responsibility to come up with a way to stop these killings. If you are not willing to assume responsibility for your toys, you have no right to have them as far as I'm concerned. There's no such thing as a free lunch, no right without responsibility. So what are you going to do?
Logical
(22,457 posts)the problem would be solved. And I would have NO ISSUE with that. If no one had guns then this would be a better country.
But I see no wat to stop this problem now. Not without going door to door collecting guns. Which we both know will not happen. It would not even be physically possible.
primavera
(5,191 posts)This is another fallacy promoted by the gun community, that, for gun control measures to be worthwhile, they have to produce 100% results, instantaneously, within seconds of the bill being signed into law. No law works that way. After the UK banned guns for its population, of course there were still many guns in private hands and there continued to be shootings. The point is that, with each year that passed, the number of guns fell, the culture for craving guns weakened, and, gradually, but steadily, the number of shootings dropped. Now, many, many years later, they have virtually no gun deaths in the UK. Of course it didn't occur overnight, no one but an idiot would expect it to.
So, if you have no ideas for how to fix the gun crisis this country faces, perhaps you would at least be so good as to step aside and stop trying to hinder those who do have ideas.
Logical
(22,457 posts)banning all guns.
primavera
(5,191 posts)You are among those who are empowering the gun lobby and ensuring that ten senators willing to entertain serious discussion of responsible gun control measures are hard to find. If the gun lobby had no supporters, it could not exert the pressure upon legislatures that it does to keep gun control off their dockets. If the gun community, of which you are a part, did not fight to prevent the election of any candidate favoring responsible gun control, if gun proponents would at least consider listening to proposals to regulate gun ownership, instead of reactionarily declaring war upon anyone who even thinks about trying to pass gun control legislation, in other words, if you guys were amenable to any sort of compromise at all, the discussion of gun issues in this country would be very, very different.
xtraxritical
(3,576 posts)It will take time for these guns to surface and be collected by law enforcement, but eventually the problem will mitigate. That's how those "other" counties did it, slowly.
Raksha
(7,167 posts)right here: "...it's all the fault of criminals and bad apples whom everyone agrees "should never have been allowed to have a gun in the first place." Except, of course, the day before that "bad apple" shot up a school yard, s/he was a "law abiding, responsible firearm owner" whose right to own and use that firearm the gun community fought to protect."
As you say, the ball *IS* in your opponent's park.
If DU is any kind of a microcosm of America, it makes me very hopeful to see everyone get so furious at the gun lobby at the same time. I can't recall that ever happening before--not to quite this degree anyway. They don't have any more power than we collectively allow them to have, and we've allowed them to have way too much for too long. And too many people have died because of it.
bench scientist
(1,107 posts)So well said. Thanks!
baldguy
(36,649 posts)Just like every other gunworshipper - YOU DON'T HAVE A PLAN! The only answer you have to the problem of too much gun violence is to have more guns!
Logical
(22,457 posts)from being used by a person who wants to kill a bunch of people.
Why is this so hard to understand?
How do you stop a person intent on killing 10 people from borrowing, stealing or buying a gun to do it?
baldguy
(36,649 posts)Do have a solution. One that actually works in nearly every country it's been tried. The answer is strict gun control. Any RW propaganda to the contrary you will spew is nothing but lies.
And the other this us compassionate, thoughtful LIBERALS do - NOT TRY TO SCORE POLITICAL POINTS ON THE BLOOD & BODIES OF TWENTY ELEMENTARY SCHOOL CHILDREN!
The most productive thing you and the other sick, gunworshipping SOBs can do is just crawl back under your rock.
Logical
(22,457 posts)What country?
What gun control are you talking about? Canada? Norway?
Give me your example country.
baldguy
(36,649 posts)Logical
(22,457 posts)baldguy
(36,649 posts)On your head. Blood on your hands. Guilt on your conscience.
You don't understand, because your soul is lost.
Logical
(22,457 posts)baldguy
(36,649 posts)And when a sick RW sycophant like you belittles those deaths.
Please, continue to post your slime & bile. Allow everyone to see the really ugly evil that supports the murderous crazy gun culture in America.
Logical
(22,457 posts)baldguy
(36,649 posts)It's about as convincing as Bart Simpson saying "Nobody saw me! You can't prove anything!"
And learn how to use a dictionary.
Logical
(22,457 posts)baldguy
(36,649 posts)Meanwhile, you gunworshippers are ignoring the blood.
Response to baldguy (Reply #213)
Post removed
xtraxritical
(3,576 posts)laws and confiscation over ten to twenty years will take millions out of circulation. It will also make them rare and ungodly costly for a criminal to even consider purchasing one. Now, logical, what have you got?
LanternWaste
(37,748 posts)"How about stopping people from WANTING to kill people. .."
Allow us then an objective and comprehensive solution to do just that... or do you simply hold others to a higher standard than yourself?
BlancheSplanchnik
(20,219 posts)but you suggest stopping people from WANTING to kill people. Like THAT'S doable?
This isn't the Wild West---every dudely guy (and those who wish they were dudely---like homicidal mentally ill guys) doesn't need a gun hidden under his coat or strapped to his bulging thigh.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2012/07/23/six-facts-about-guns-violence-and-gun-control/
Posted by Ezra Klein on July 23, 2012 at 11:51 am
The aftermath of the Aurora, Colorado shootings has been thick with calls to avoid “politicizing” the tragedy. That is code, essentially, for “don’t talk about reforming our gun control laws.”
Let’s be clear: This is a form of politicization. When political actors construct a political argument that threatens political consequences if other political actors pursue a certain political outcome, that is, almost by definition, a politicization of the issue. It’s just a form of politicization favoring those who prefer the status quo to stricter gun control laws.
about gun and violence trends in the U.S.:
1. America is an unusually violent country. But we’re not as violent as we used to be.
Kieran Healy, a sociologist at Duke University, made this graph of “deaths due to assault” in the United States and other developed countries. We are a clear outlier. (see graph at web page)
...
3. Gun ownership in the United States is declining overall.
...
2. The South is the most violent region in the United States.
In a subsequent post, Healy drilled further into the numbers and looked at deaths due to assault in different regions of the country. Just as the United States is a clear outlier in the international context, the South is a clear outlier in the national context: (see graph at web page)
...
[font size=6]4. More guns tend to mean more homicide.
The Harvard Injury Control Research Center assessed the literature on guns and homicide and found that there’s substantial evidence that indicates more guns means more murders. This holds true whether you’re looking at different countries or different states.
....
5. States with stricter gun control laws have fewer deaths from gun-related violence.
Last year, economist Richard Florida dove deep into the correlations between gun deaths and other kinds of social indicators. Some of what he found was, perhaps, unexpected: Higher populations, more stress, more immigrants, and more mental illness were not correlated with more deaths from gun violence. But one thing he found was, perhaps, perfectly predictable: States with tighter gun control laws appear to have fewer gun-related deaths. The disclaimer here is that correlation is not causation. But correlations can be suggestive:[/font] (see graph at webpage)
...
6. Gun control is not politically popular.
...
Jakes Progress
(11,213 posts)Make it illegal to manufacture, sell, purchase, and possess guns in this country.
I'm sure there is a 12 step program that could help you wean yourself off the iron.
ReRe
(12,189 posts)...but not by him. I heard while ago that the guns belonged to his Mother.
Oh, yeah, "300 million guns are legally purchased". WRONG. 40% aren't!
And really, why DON'T we put people who want to kill people in a mental institution where they can be cared for and protected from themselves and others? Probably because Reagan closed most of them down back in the 80's and turned them out on the streets if they didn't have anywhere to go.
And you? Ha! (as Tweety says it), your Mommy needs to take your computer privileges away from you. This is a serious discussion board, not a playground. Why don't all you bullies start a board of your own and just go after each other? Why come here and act the way you do? You think it's fun? You get your jollies by harassing people? Is that what you're doing right now?
Well, stop it for a moment and just explain, logically, why you are a DU bully.
Are we really that "bulliable"? 
Logical
(22,457 posts)LanternWaste
(37,748 posts)"How about stopping people from WANTING to kill people. .."
I'd certainly enjoy listening to the objective solution you propose to do this... the same solution you have been demanding from others. 
Unless you really do hold others to a higher standard than yourself, and if so, I recognize the convenience and simplicity of it.
In other words, "more info please."
Logical
(22,457 posts)ReRe
(12,189 posts) bongbong
(5,436 posts)Which I carry as a badge of honor.
jeff47
(26,549 posts)None of his 22 victims died. Thus demonstrating gun control saved lives.
frylock
(34,825 posts)and fucking word up.
spanone
(141,535 posts)
Whovian
(2,866 posts)
onehandle
(51,122 posts)One Scud missile is all it would take.
Ban them.
godai
(2,902 posts)ThatPoetGuy
(1,747 posts)But let's keep that Scud missile metaphorical.
kestrel91316
(51,666 posts)opposed to gun laws and their aggressive enforcement.
This tent is a tad too big.
Cooley Hurd
(26,877 posts)...moderators. The present experiment of using anonymous jurors is not working.
Tx4obama
(36,974 posts)what's the problem with it?
It's news.
WilliamPitt
(58,179 posts)Tx4obama
(36,974 posts)WilliamPitt
(58,179 posts)Tx4obama
(36,974 posts)And I do not have a clue what your cartoon is.
WilliamPitt
(58,179 posts)Man in America butchers 20 children with a gun. 20 children dead.
Man in China slashes 22 children with a knife. 0 children dead.
Gun-humping fucking asshole douchebag loser fuckwad assbag suckass awful dumb people who suck so hard they bend light use China story to defend gun rights, i.e. Durr Hurr you can hurt people with things besides guns. Over and over and over and over.
It's called "false equivalency," and it has been deployed dozens of times here today.
If you're genuine in your ignorance of the subtext, you have my most sincere apology. You will also be the first person I've come across who hasn't coughed up that story to make slaughtering children OK.
Your move.
Tx4obama
(36,974 posts)... I saw a headline about the China story before I went to bed around the time the sun was coming up,
then today I saw an alert on an OP regarding China story that was posted in LBN (which had nothing to do with guns or the USA school shooting),
then I came here on this thread and saw negativity about the China story,
so I really had no idea what all was going on.
WilliamPitt
(58,179 posts)Very sorry.
It's been a long, rotten day...mostly because of the reasons above described.
I'm sorry.
muriel_volestrangler
(106,160 posts)The intent of posting it in LBN was suggested and then confirmed here and the reply to this: http://www.democraticunderground.com/1014336776#post15
There's more than one subtext possible.
WilliamPitt
(58,179 posts)virgogal
(10,178 posts)WilliamPitt
(58,179 posts)I'm good there, too.
Hissyspit
(45,790 posts)He's an amazing writer. Whether you agree with him or not.
To every writing style, there is a season: The sacred and profane, the florid and the prosaic, the quixotic and the in-your-face.
fightthegoodfightnow
(7,042 posts)I feel guilty for laughing and agree with you 100%.
It's just you said it so fu€king well.
Worth repeating.
NYC Liberal
(20,453 posts)But the OP is talking about: anyone who posted the story about the Chinese guy with the knife in order to mitigate the damage to their raison d'etre.
It's fine that the news was posted once in LBN. But there are some that are going around in threads about the other tragedy, the shooting, and using it to push their agenda.
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)Why do you think I don't give money.
That said that knife story was dated today. I liked Van Zants take on it early in the day.
So since he brought it up on msnbc should I turn the TV off too?
gademocrat7
(11,930 posts)Dalai_1
(1,301 posts)
s-cubed
(1,385 posts)
secondvariety
(1,245 posts)and don't know what it was like. Must have been nice...
WilliamPitt
(58,179 posts)This kind of vomitorium experience never, ever, ever happened.
TwilightGardener
(46,416 posts)hug their guns, feel grateful that they still have them, count their ammo blessings.
malaise
(295,826 posts)+1,000 - that was sick
antigone382
(3,682 posts)But the fact that we suffered an absolutely horrific tragedy here does not diminish the horror that those 22 students in China went through. Those who post the latter story with an agenda suck...but I have seen any mention of the story treated as a refutation of the message about gun control sent by today's atrocity.
Mentioning that a large and vicious attack against the most innocent members of society occurred around the world is not inherently political, or at least not in the sense that it takes away from what happened here. That any children (or any human being, really) should suffer such random and undeserved acts of violence is beyond words.
WilliamPitt
(58,179 posts)...or not.
1. You're vomiting false piety to cover for those using the China story to diminish the shaughter of children;
or
2. You really don't know any better.
Either way...
Ugh.
Never mind.
antigone382
(3,682 posts)My point is that automatically responding to the story as if that is the case every time it is presented is unfair. I don't have an agenda, except that I don't like to see children targeted for violence. We don't need to hide the story about children being horrifically attacked in China to make the case that this horrific attack was awful and needs to be addressed. I'm not saying that was your point, but I have seen what amounts to that attitude displayed on DU today.
I have been on DU for eight years and I've never made a pro-gun post, nor have I ever been uncivil to you. As a student of Asian culture and a friend of Asian people this story is closer to me than it might be to others, for reasons that have nothing to do with the weapons of choice. Those children, their families, and their suffering are real to me. It shouldn't be downplayed.
And for the record I have family who live not thirty minutes from this school in Connecticut, who just brought a newborn baby into the world last night. I have no doubt it is affecting them deeply and I have followed this story closely because it does indeed "break my heart." I don't know what else to tell you.
zeemike
(18,998 posts)We have morals and we care about people and they can use that against us and they are doing just that.
they win either way...if we start a witch hunt to purge ourselves of gun nuts we will be attacking ourselves and it don't matter if it is just or unjust....a house divided cannot stand...and it don't make a shit whether the divisiveness is justified or not.
I assume we have right wing plants here on DU that want to stir up trouble...no question in my mind about it...but I would never make the mistake of trying to figure out who they are and start accusing them...that don't work and it sets up a dynamic where every thing in the world becomes a litmus test of right and wrong and we start tearing yourself apart over it....and again we lose.
I urge us all not to over react...but that is seldom satisfying to our emotions....and probably ignored.
llmart
(17,588 posts)I don't give a rat's ass about anyone's opinion if they think I'm "overreacting". I'm too freakin' old to care what anyone thinks. The ole' let's play nicey nice and let's not let our emotions hurt someone's feelings is a great big, heaping crock of shit.
Shut down the gungeon. Bring back the old DU.
zeemike
(18,998 posts)It is not about hurting someones feelings it is about going on a crusade to hunt trolls down and kick them out...and some here will enjoy that I know....but it will surly destroy us in the end...
But if you want that kind of place then go for it...but It won't be the old DU...and I know cause I was here from the start.
Squinch
(59,453 posts)should not be tolerated by thinking people. Enough is enough. It is time for some group - and it will have to be liberals - to take an unequivocal position for what is obviously the right thing to do. Just as we take an unequivocal position about other issues, it is time to do it with this.
This will not destroy us. This is the right thing to do.
llmart
(17,588 posts)Thank you for being another sane, intelligent voice.
I'm choosing to ignore the other idiotic response to my post. I've had my fill of idiocy for one day.
Squinch
(59,453 posts)around frantically now that the light has been turned on their imbecilic positions.
zeemike
(18,998 posts)And should not be tolerated by thinking people.
Now lets kick out the ones who are pro military...and harass them and force them to keep quiet.
And there are other things we have already decided cannot be said here...and there are many more to come as we spit off splinter by splinter and left only with the heart wood.
There is a difference between calling out people for their actions and calling them out for their thoughts...it can be turned into the thought police, and that will destroy us.
Squinch
(59,453 posts)zeemike
(18,998 posts)Banning words and thoughts is thought police...
Ban guns not words....then perhaps no more will die...but banning words and thoughts will not do shit except piss people off and make us look like authoritarians.
Squinch
(59,453 posts)zeemike
(18,998 posts)You want to solve the problem go after the cause not the symptoms....enact gun control and attack the culture of violence that has dominated this country for decades now...
TomClash
(11,344 posts)It wasn't posted to support gun rights. And it was pretty obvious to anyone who thought about it that it wasn't done to support gun rights.
If you have a problem with it, we can rectify that. Without guns or knives.
SunSeeker
(58,250 posts)Who appears to have joined DU tonight to post "cars kill people too" and the Chinese guy with the knife crap.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=1986534
Spryguy
(120 posts)CLOSE DOWN THE GUNGEON! BAN THE RIGHT WING DEATH SPEWER TOTING SYNCOPHANTS!
heaven05
(18,124 posts)fact waiters/shooter apologists also. The fact that 20 small children were dead is all the fact I needed to call it the way I saw it. You called it the way any feeling human being might and the way you saw it. Very sad day in america.
onecent
(6,096 posts)and I love the ASAH area...but it has changed wayy too much.
Almost wish I could find another arena to hang in.
fadedrose
(10,044 posts)He looks like he's got a headache or toothache and reminds me of the guy who didn't get the girl in a Doris Day movie...
Looks like he's in pain and I wanted to ask if you felt the way he looks...
Oh, I read your posts and most of the time agree with all you say....
WilliamPitt
(58,179 posts)
MANative
(4,188 posts)
underpants
(196,396 posts)"Well, sometimes the magic works. Sometimes, it doesn't.
- Chief Dan George as "Old Lodge Skins" in "Little Big Man" - my favorite movie
DonCoquixote
(13,956 posts)Juries seem to have gamed the system. I altered on a thread that said Kopreans jusrt came here to breed acnhor babies. Lo and behold, the jurors upheld it.
DirkGently
(12,151 posts)An even more basic liberal idea than opposition to gun violence is the one where we freely exchange ideas.
We know all the reasons: Bad ideas thrive in darkness, good ideas grow dull when unopposed. Suppression and avoidance never change anyone's mind. Etc.
But you know that. You're just angry, like the rest of us, that this conversation about mass violence seems to get us nowhere.
WilliamPitt
(58,179 posts)^^^ Spoken with all due respect. ^^^
Some truths are self-evident.
This is not the wide-open Yahoo boards. This is not fucking YouTube.
This is DU. There used to be standards. I've been here for more than a decade thanks to those standards. Those standards made the place worth returning to again, and again, and again.
There used to be standards.
Of late, those standards have gone to seed.
Yes, I am shouting about that.
DirkGently
(12,151 posts)of human expression. It's dumb, but no dumber to me than, say, support of irresponsible drone killings or torturing Bradley Manning.
We're not talking about Jewish conspiracy theories or rape fantasies or the rest of the dregs that inhabit "the wide-open" Internet.
Vehemence and indignation over what remains essentially a political disagreement does not entitle us shut other people up. That's a tactic for those not equipped to argue their own point, which is not a group you inhabit.
The problem may be that there is a teeny tiny point in the "Knife guy slaughtered a bunch of kids" story. There are a thousand reasons why knives aren't guns. But it IS also true that violent madmen / women don't disappear where guns are rare, isn't it? Not germane to the discussion of mass killings in general? Maybe, but that's an argument, not an axiomatic truth.
Make the argument. Put away the censor stick. Those are for dummies.
WilliamPitt
(58,179 posts)...is where we part ways.
Politely.
If you consider this to be just another political conversation, I bid you adieu.
DirkGently
(12,151 posts)That's where my resistance is coming from. You're angry at the comment, which I do understand. You don't want to articulate anything further, which I think is a problem.
Aloha.
tiny elvis
(979 posts)i am glad the aclu defends the kkk's right to march in the street
the kkk is still not welcome in my house
joe_sixpack
(721 posts)I commend you.
Duval
(4,280 posts)through your articles back in the 2003 and beyond, who have given me hope and let me believe I was not alone.
You stuck your neck out in Chapel Hil, NC, and I was there to hear you. I followed you on Truth Out and then to DU. If you see a problem, then I think it exists. I'm sorry if I have contributed, and I'll be careful from now on. I think you are right to bring DU to out attention. 
NWHarkness
(3,290 posts)Hell, during the election, I was under attack because I supported the DEMOCRATIC candidate in my state's senate race.
It really has gone to the dogs.
patrice
(47,992 posts)in facts and stuff, like she stepped out of consideration for SoS herself, she is an American Exceptionalist/war-monger, has a vested interest in dirty oil, all left out, just to create the same spurious platform over and over again to attack the President.
Now, tell me how that ISN'T violation of Terms of Service to NOT advocate for the defeat of a Democrat, in this case on selected issues, rather than in an election.
Horseshit!
Throckmorton
(3,579 posts)This afternoon, I started banning any pro-gun poster I came across.
Just a few minutes ago, my daughters therapist call to tell us that his friends daughter was on of the victims, just 5 years old. He call to cancel her 7:00 appointment because he needed to help her mother. I can be in Newtown in 45 minutes, and the firehouse in the background of all the news shots is where I went to various training classes over the years.
Skinner et al, the current jury system is broken, it must go.
Chorophyll
(5,179 posts)Thanks for saying it.
LanternWaste
(37,748 posts)I remember too. Flame wars were about benign crap like Olive Garden and showing receipts at Circuit City. These days. the flame wars revolve around those who feel that 27+ dead school children are but a mere price to pay to maintain the most heavily armed citizenry on the planet to no good effect.
Hissyspit
(45,790 posts)joe_sixpack
(721 posts)I am a gun owner. I am as angry and as saddened as anyone with the horrible news I heard this afternoon. I have never posted any pro or anti-gun threads. But if in your anguish you want me and any other gun owners to leave. Just say the word. It might make you feel better temporarily, but it's not the answer. I'm not foolish enough this soon in this tragedy to take up a position for or against the right to own a gun, that would be callous. But I'm not going to permanently hide my views just to fit in here. I know many fine democratic, responsible gun owners. If there's no longer a place in this party for us, let us know.
WilliamPitt
(58,179 posts)Whatever conflict you are having is not with me, or this thread, but with your own notions of "responsible gun ownership." Whatever else is happening on DU vis a vis gun ownership is NOT this thread.
I may own a gun someday. That is not the conversation...and if you think about it for a moment, you'll know that's true. This thread is about people defending ALL KINDS OF GUN OWNERSHIP at ALL COSTS.
You are NOT the victim today.
...and, psssst, go fuck yourself if you try to make yourself one again.
joe_sixpack
(721 posts)acted like some fucking "victim", but it doesn't take much to see what's going on here today. Most is an understandable emotional lashing out because of a horrific incident of violence we all heard of with thesame disbelief. But a mob mentality can quickly get out of control.
WilliamPitt
(58,179 posts)"Let the purge begin"
"But I'm not going to permanently hide my views just to fit in here."
"If there's no longer a place in this party for us, let us know."
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=1983586
I'd say you've done it once.
Think about it.
SunSeeker
(58,250 posts)I'm not saying there should be no gun ownership, just that if you want to be safe, you should not own a gun.
You're 43 times more likely to be killed by your own gun than by an intruder's. You are unlikely to have an intruder. But you are very likely to get drunk, get depressed, get in a fight with someone in your house, or have your kid find your gun. That's how people get killed. Having a gun in the house makes it far more likely that you'll get your own fool head blown off.
That's why it is so crazy to suggest you should buy a gun for your own protection. I would imagine this woman knew her son had mental issues. Ironically, maybe she thought those guns would protect her from him.
http://theincidentaleconomist.com/wordpress/more-guns-more-suicides/
Squinch
(59,453 posts)And what is that, a threat? "If there's no longer a place in this party for us, let us know." What's that supposed to mean? You'll go and be a Republican if we don't talk nice about your gun?
OK, I'll say the word. Go.
Odin2005
(53,521 posts)
Nevernose
(13,081 posts)And sadly those "but rocks kill people too!" dipshits have been here all along, too. Hell, one of the dungeon mods in 01 or 02 was an undercover Freeper who posted shit like that all the time.
Actually, now that I think about it, you may have a point. At best they're seriously lacking in the critical thinking department ("no, a fallacy is not a sex act"
, and at worst they're disrupting little trolls.
amuse bouche
(3,672 posts)I see people on HP trying to prove that countries without guns, substitute other violence...like bombs.
neverforget
(9,513 posts)
shenmue
(38,597 posts)So don't ban trucks or something.
Made me so mad I wanted to reach through the computer screen and punch him.
secondwind
(16,903 posts)
displacedtexan
(15,696 posts)I just returned a couple of months ago, after having stormed off in a giant huff during the Great Clinton v Obama Dem Primary War. What I find disturbing today is the army of obvious trolls sucking people into their little reindeer games here.
Back in the early days of DU, when you and I knew that Robb was a dingbat and trolls were TSed regularly, Someone usually posted "Don't feed the trolls," and life went on.
The jury process is kind of cool, but what happened to the Mods?
LongTomH
(8,636 posts)Fucking kick 
and recommend!!!!
liberalmuse
(18,881 posts)I just don't understand people who claim to be liberals going into automatic gun defense mode instead of expressing their horror and sadness and even anger that 26 people - 20 of them children, were gunned down in cold blood. That has no place here. I have zero tolerance for the same ol' cliches gun fetishists use every time a massacre happens. I'm fucking done with their flaccid arguments and pathetic attempts to defend owning weapons that were made to snuff out life.
Le Taz Hot
(22,271 posts)Up until today, the gun worshippers were sequestered from the rest of DU for a reason. Today, I think we see why.
HuskiesHowls
(739 posts)that are making it tough for me to stay. Its the gender wars, the flame wars.....a little bit of everything.
Unfortunately, I see this place becoming a lot like FR.....except we CLAIM to be Democrats.
Ash_F
(5,861 posts)Was too busy with school to be posting back then, but I've read many of yours. You are absolutely right. The level of rightwing nuttery/dickishness on here has gotten out of control. And not just relating to guns, but basic human rights. I read stuff that's way to the right of most straight-ticket Republicans I personally know. How is that possible?
AAO
(3,300 posts)Has there been major infiltration by the right-wing paid trash? Something smells.
It's like you can't get a good cup of coffee anymore unless you pay $2. That was a non sequitur, but it needed to be said,
johnp3907
(4,302 posts)Jakes Progress
(11,213 posts)why they sign onto a forum that is supposed to be liberal. Pot? Libertarian? Troll? Paid disinformationist?
If I wanted to belong to a big tent that held all kinds of idiot views, I would go to a republican site.
Kick 'em out.
AlecBGreen
(3,874 posts)I have been here longer than most (10+ years) and I am a firm progressive. I dont need to defend my liberal credentials to anyone. I am also a firm believer in an individual's right to bear arms. I believe that people can disagree on particular topics (gun control for example) and still work toward the common goal of a more liberal, progressive United States. I also believe that advocating the banning of people for expressing dissenting opinions is sad and counterproductive. I understand your desire to 'clean house' of trolls but I think the jury/alert system and the ignore button are better remedies.
Great Caesars Ghost
(532 posts)I repair, and build guns. (Mostly repair)
LynneSin
(95,337 posts)
Solly Mack
(96,923 posts) 
JohnnyRingo
(20,857 posts)Talk about slippery slopes. I think there are already anti gun sites for people so fiercely committed to the cause.
I'm not commenting on the shooting today, but should we then purge the site of anyone who is pro-life? After all, most liberals are for choice. Many here may want a separate purge for those who don't endorse gay marriage.
Liberal Democrats come in many different flavors and it's not right to start kicking people out of the tent because they stick out from the confines of your so sharply defined mold:
juajen
(8,515 posts)
WheelWalker
(9,399 posts)Kicked and Recommended.
Lint Head
(15,064 posts)Chemisse
(31,339 posts)Where do we draw the line?
I believe in the right to bear arms. I have never had a gun, but I might want one someday if I am elderly, alone and feel vulnerable.
I think people should be able to have a weapon for personal protection and for hunting.
But I strongly believe we need gun control, to keep guns out of the hands of children and mentally unstable people. We also do not need guns that can spit out lots of bullets in just a few seconds.
So should I be banned from DU, under your proposal? If not, where do you draw the line?
If you can define the difference between people like me and NRA mouthpieces, I would happily support banning them all.
Flatpicker
(894 posts)As much as I believe the gun problem needs to be handled, I don't see the point of banning anybody who disagrees with me.
I want to hear the other side because it helps me understand how they think. As long as the discourse is civil.
I know I mentioned the Chinese issue today because I was more concerned with the intent of the person who wants to do violence to children more than the tools they use to accomplish it. Hope that is understood and not having people think I am advocating gun usage?
I'll be the 1st one to admit that I don't know how to fix the violence in america.
Don't own a gun, probably will never own one, but have thought of it before. I'm scared to be out knowing that someone else can pull a trigger and kill me or my loved ones.
Here's where I'm having a problem though.
I'm not feeling comfortable that if we banned all firearms tomorrow, we would be safer.
Those law abiding people who will turn in their weapons may be outnumbered by those who don't. I don't think that the LEO's we have will be able to prevent those with weapons from preying on those who don't have them.
Basically, I'm scared to take the 1st step knowing that we don't have the infrastructure (in this case, Law Enforcement staff) available to prevent murders from happening rather than punishing them after they happen.
Our gun culture is so entrenched that I don't know what to do. I just know that killing kids is unacceptable and something has to be done.
shcrane71
(1,721 posts)and an Amen.
patrice
(47,992 posts)invaded.
And I'm re-considering my membership here. The only thing stopping me is that I don't want to turn this place over to this . . . . ahem . . . element.
SunSeeker
(58,250 posts)patrice
(47,992 posts)SunSeeker
(58,250 posts)
Sorry I asked....
Danmel
(5,772 posts)I had someone repeatedly call me a liar because I posted (entirely truthfully, btw) about my mail delivery.
I always tell my kids that 3 of the most important words in the English language are "SAVE TO DRAFTS".
Before you send an email or say something rash, save to drafts and come back in a few hours and think again.
Maybe there should be a ten minute delay on posts so people can reconsider and treat each other with some respect.
Buddaman
(503 posts)proud2BlibKansan
(96,793 posts)And I was working so I only checked a few times. But every time I looked at DU today, I saw that story.
Shame on DUers who posted that story TODAY. Shame on you.
patrice
(47,992 posts)Hissyspit
(45,790 posts)when it is clearly coming from trolls.
proud2BlibKansan
(96,793 posts)I also alerted on a post where one of our gun nuts called someone a liar. Jury voted to let it stay.
SunSeeker
(58,250 posts)Hotler
(13,747 posts)not totally to the right, but more than I would like to see. I remember a DU that would have come uncorked when Obama said "Now is not the time to point fingers." and let the Bush/Cheney crew walk free and "Wall St. did nothing illegal." and the bankers walked free and when he failed to put up a fight for single Payer health Care. I remember a DU that would have said now is time to take to the streets in mass protest not put forth all kinds of excuses about how protest doesn't work and we'll vote them out next time. I think DU today represents what the democratic party has morphed into. Remember when democrats had some spine and fight? I know democrats that are anti-union. Geeezzzz!
patrice
(47,992 posts)this week an alliance between Kucinich and Ron Paul was added to the mix, so we're probably looking at Ron/RAND Paul supporters here talking lefty/anarchy stuff just enough to get under the radar, but mainly with the objective of fucking with health care reform in preparation for the 2014 election.
Hotler
(13,747 posts)patrice
(47,992 posts)misinformed or is lying and, yet, ventures major fundamental policy judgements and PREDICTIONS that basically add up to fracturing either Democratic support or support for President Obama.
And I'm not talking about good-faith disagreements on the issues here, because when the sort of thing I'm talking about is challenged, no amount of logic or facts or process issues ever affect it.
I'm a Leftie/Liberal myself, with strong Socialist leanings myself on specific issues, but this stuff that sacrifices progressive outcomes to purist/ideological base building is questionable to say the least.
Zorra
(27,670 posts)other than this and other pieces related to this:
Congressmen Dennis Kucinich (D-OH), Ron Paul (R-TX) and Rush Holt Jr. (D-NJ) today introduced H. Res. 819, a resolution of inquiry to compel the Administration to release documents which it reportedly uses as the legal justification for the use of drones to assassinate people abroad, including United States citizens, without trial. According to the Bureau of Investigative Journalism, our drone strikes have killed more than 3,000 people including as many as 1,105 innocent civilians since 2002.
Since this is an anti-gun violence thread, I'm really hoping that drone strikes that kill children in other countries are just as unacceptable to those on the left as some lunatic shooting children in the US is, or Orwell's "War is Peace" has become reality, and left has become right.
patrice
(47,992 posts)just temporary abatement to satisfy some form of political facism, from whatever part of the political spectrum, only for the whole drone evoking dynamic to morph and articulate itself elsewhere in other terms, under WORSE pressures geo-economically.
And in that particular regard: Ron Paul's son Rand Paul supports a pledge of allegiance to the NRA for Senators to prevent any treaties with the UN regarding the flow of weapons, including tidal waves of small arms like that we see associated with "Fast and Furious" http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/atf-fast-furious-sg,0,3828090.storygallery flowing into 3rd World countries and, thus, continuously accelerating the kinds of factors that result in the deaths of even more innocents, the betrayal of American troops and the use of drones.
Do you REALLY think Ron Paul gives a rat's ass about peace? His and Rand's ONLY concern with war managed by the government is the extent to which it interferes with FREE MARKET WAR PROFITEERING. I will never forgive Dennis Kucinich, impotent political opportunist that he is, for taking up with Ron/Rand Paul because he has NO political base and the reason that he has no political base is because he is nothing but a token peace advocate, along for the ride. And if people can kick PO's ass for his assumed in-effectuality, well then, Dennis is certainly at least a valid, though lesser, target for the same critique.
Zorra
(27,670 posts)you offered none. When I add into the mix that you obviously dislike Rep. Kucinich, I'm not buying what you are selling.
A lot of centrists absolutely hate DK; his progressive Democrat anti-Corporatist Third Way positions piss them off royally. Centrists voted to go to War in Iraq, Dennis fought against it with everything he had.
As for Ron and Rand Paul, they scare me, but if they want to help stop our government from killing innocent civilians, well, that's good. Even a blind pig finds an acorn once in awhile.
To shit all over Dennis by trying to conflate him with Ron and Rand Paul, just because you don't like him, is totally disingenuous.
patrice
(47,992 posts)Zorra
(27,670 posts)patrice
(47,992 posts)destabilized countries.
patrice
(47,992 posts)patrice
(47,992 posts)Allegiance to the NRA that he is trying to force down the throats of the Senate:
http://www.nagr.org/UN_lp_survey2.aspx
Zorra
(27,670 posts)Trying to conflate Dennis Kucinich, or me, with the philosophies/ideologies of Ron and Rand Paul is bullshit.
I'm gone beyond left of communism, and Dennis Kucinich is the furthest left progressive Rep we have in Congress.
Yeah, there's a lot of information we can't know ~ but that certainly doesn't give us license to totally make things up about people out of thin air.
llmart
(17,588 posts)I posted on a thread that I am sick of DU giving the gun nuts a place to spew their filth.
backscatter712
(26,357 posts)The shooting gives the griefers the ideal environment for them to stir the shit and make every thread on DU go diagonal.
It's LOOOOOOONG past time to clean house here.
steve2470
(37,481 posts)patrice
(47,992 posts)TroglodyteScholar
(5,477 posts)Gun enthusiasts and mass killing apologists have plenty of sad, nasty places on the net that they can occupy. We don't need them here.
kaiden
(1,314 posts)You are a coward. You are a victim.
You have given up, you are paranoid. You might as well take that gun and put it to your temple and pull the trigger.
You aren't living life. You're waiting to die.
In the meantime, people like you make weapons available to those who are even more paranoid that you are.
I'm a grandma. Come fuck with me.
cynatnite
(31,011 posts)
Wind Dancer
(3,618 posts)Beautifully stated.
lupinella
(365 posts)cynatnite
(31,011 posts)Well said, Will!
H2O Man
(79,010 posts)Some of the shit on here these days is enough to make me puke. I find myself questioning why I waste time on DU any more. (Of course, it is because a minority of people here, old and new, are decent.)
Squinch
(59,453 posts)immediately ban anyone who uses that assinine "spoons don't make you obese" analogy. Life is too short to have to listen to the morons spew that crap over and over again.
SunSeeker
(58,250 posts)Squinch
(59,453 posts)it is.
I don't want to listen to it any more.
And to all the people saying we need to discuss this in the name of free speech I say: Seriously? You can discuss this all you want. When you are all done with the discussion, 20 babies and 8 adults will STILL be dead. The person who owned these guns no doubt thought of herself as a "responsible gun owner." Her son used her responsible guns to take out the "responsible gun owner" and every innocent bystander he could get.
"Responsible gun owners" do not have the right to endanger everyone around them. And that's exactly what they do.
October
(3,363 posts)Any more... so many trolls and morons.
jsr
(7,712 posts)advocating RW positions and causes.
What we are seeing is so very different from the GWB days, or even 2007-2008. The good old days are long gone.
MotherPetrie
(3,145 posts)I was shocked by the number of them. I never knew anybody who was that obsessed with guns who wasn't a wingnut. until I came to DU. Shocked to find that attitude at a message board devoted to Democratic causes.
So today hasn't surprised me. But I am surprised it is tolerated.
Coyotl
(15,262 posts)I agree that DU is not the same as years ago (when I used a different alias). Today DU is just a rant space and the world would be the same without it. The substance is missing. Now, any random, impulsive thought qualifies as an OP. We used to do real work around this place, collaborating on investigations, amassing evidence, etc.
King_Klonopin
(1,372 posts)but action needs to be taken. No more rhetoric and lame debates.
Assault guns, multiple shot clips and magazines, guns that are
clearly designed to massacre lots of humans should be banned.
The prisons should be emptied of non-violent offenders and drug
addicts. Laws against gun violence should be some of the toughest.
If a gun is involved in a crime in any way, penalties should be tough.
Minimum sentencing makes sense in the case of gun violence.
Make sales at gun shows illegal.
Add the NRA to the list of terrorist organizations.
Stop the war on drugs. Start a war against guns -- a PR war, an
enforcement war, an intelligence war...
There are many ways to approach this. It will require the efforts of
many people, and a committed leader, to accomplish any change.
Why aren't evangelical Christians seen picketing and harrassing
customers outside of gun shops ???
world wide wally
(21,836 posts)Then this ain't a county worth living in
Zorra
(27,670 posts)I've always been supportive of people being able to keep firearms for hunting. But nowadays...there's just waaaay too many deranged people in this country, and they should not have access to deadly weapons.
But please, please, please, wake up, folks. Yes, it's partly the guns, but the reality of this phenomenon is that this insanity goes so much deeper than just the guns. These chronic killings are a symptom of a much more deadly and insidious pathology.
“The way of life known as Western Civilization is on a death path…Our essential message to the world is a basic call to consciousness. The destruction of native cultures and people is the same process which has destroyed and is destroying life on this planet…
“…The principles of righteousness demand that all thoughts of prejudice, privilege or superiority be swept away and that recognition be given to the reality that Creation is intended for the benefit of all equally — even the birds and the animals, the trees and insects, as well as the human beings…”
“We are living in a period of time in which we expect to see great changes in the economy of the colonizers…We will soon see the end of an economy based on the supply of cheap oil, natural gas, and other resources, and that will greatly change the face of the world…”
“…The people who are living on this planet need to break with the narrow concept of human liberation, and begin to see liberation as something which needs to be extended to the whole of the Natural World. What is needed is the liberation of all the things that support Life — the air, the waters, the trees — all the things which support the sacred web of Life…”
(This Haudenosaunee Address to the Western World was first articulated to an array of NGOs at the United Nations in Geneva, Switzerland, October 1977)
FreakinDJ
(17,644 posts)
LiberalLoner
(11,467 posts)sick cultures versus healthy cultures. Because I see what happened not so much a problem with guns but a sick society that is not taking care of its people and its mentally ill.
I know I might be wrong but that's what I took away from all of this. Yes, gun control would sharply reduce incidents like these but we are still a sick society and we still need to change for the better, even if we get gun control passed.
sarcasmo
(23,968 posts)Odin2005
(53,521 posts)It was NEVER like this before 2008, then it went all to shit.
Ninga
(9,012 posts)WillyT
(72,631 posts) & Rec !!!