This message was self-deleted by its author

[trailmonkee]

This message was self-deleted by its author (trailmonkee) on Sat Dec 15, 2012, 09:30 AM. When the original post in a discussion thread is self-deleted, the entire discussion thread is automatically locked so new replies cannot be posted.

[upaloopa]

1. I had. M-16 in Vietnam and never expected to

see something similar on our streets
I don't understand what makes a civilian want a gun like that. I'm sorry but in my book you have to be pretty fuck up to want one of those

[Hoyt]

3. I agree. Although a catch 22, if you want one like those, you should be prohibited from having one.

It's a sign one is too immature or sick to own a gun in our modern society.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

6. As am I, but AR format rifles are the most popular ones being sold today

Lower cost and more versatile than any bolt action and most older semi automatic/detachable magazine fed designs. Heard them described as Gun Legos...and sounds about right.

I always preferred my M-14. Whatever I shot stayed down and there were no reliability problems as some had with the early M-16s.

[justanidea]

20. "I don't understand what makes a civilian want a gun like that."

It's arguably the best .223 rifle you can buy.

Inexpensive, accurate, versatile, reliable.

Thats why people buy them.

[BeyondGeography]

27. What do you do with the damned things?

I think that's what baffles people. Target practice? And why the hell do all those features matter in a non-combat situation? Help me out.

[pinboy3niner]

23. After being seriously wounded by small arms fire in Vietnam...

...it was sickening to see it happening here after I got back.

[madokie]

38. Peace Brother

[AverageJoe90]

37. Yes indeed.

The sad thing is, there's been a whole bunch of attempts, mainly by right-wingers and our MSM, to deflect attention away from the real causes of our problems, and instead try to blame "violent media", "lack of discipline(they ain't talking about real discipline, folks)", etc.(both are favorite perennial RW talking points, btw).

[doc03]

2. Probably when one of their own children or grandchildren is murdered. n/t

[ProgressiveProfessor]

4. What other rights do you want reset to the late 1700s?

Voting, slavery, printing presses, abortion, ownership of property, marriage...

[RomneyLies]

5. How about we follow the constitution and regulate these things well?

[ProgressiveProfessor]

10. They already are well regulated as interpreted by SCOTUS

Going back to muskets is no more realistic than going back to hand set printing presses.

Not saying that there are not things that could be done better, but flintlocks are not the answer

[RomneyLies]

11. I still see no regulation

If a member of this citizen's militia with a right to keep and bear arms goes off on a tear and shoots up 20 babies, that's a sign that things are not so well regulated.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

14. Regulation varies from state to state

Conn has a pretty serious set of gun laws on the books.

The current trend is that the perp was crackers (as in crazy). Not sure what the law could have done.

[trailmonkee]

17. it is the intensity of the weaponry and the amount of damage that can be done in very little time

[ProgressiveProfessor]

18. Assuming this was done with pistols using standard magazines

like VA Tech, what changes would you propose? Elimination of all semi auto hand guns?

[trailmonkee]

19. I am not sure....

people want to hunt and some people feel the need for personal protection against intruders or perpetrators... whatever can fill those basic needs....

[ProgressiveProfessor]

22. Once again, it becomes a cost and technology issue

For hunting, semi auto vs bolt action does not matter much functionally, but AR format weapons are lower overall cost in most cases. They are also available in many more calibers than 223. Rifles, especially the scary black plastic or Russian ones are rarely used in crimes. Statistically they really are not the problem.

For self defense, semi auto pistols are the best answer. Easier to aim, reload, more accurate under stress that a revolver. Lots of choices in size and caliber. I tend to think that limiting the magazine to what fits in the handle is the right answer. Than means max capacity of 15 rounds or so. Its what the cops carry too. Extended magazines are gadgets that often fail. No serious shooter has them except as bling and novelty items. Shotguns are not nearly the panacea that some are making them out to be. The key to effectiveness is practice with whatever you choose, even if it is a mace or morning star.

To me the issue is the sickness of violence. US civilians have had equivalent weapons since WWI, but not this level of violence. Address the violence and its causes, and many IMO would disarm or at least not want to carry. I'd like that too. Not sure how to do that, and lots of people smarter than I am are looking at it.

[trailmonkee]

26. thanks

like the idea on max rounds in handle

[trailmonkee]

13. it is not that... the vehicles of death are too easy to access.... and too easy to use

nobody would by a friggin flint lock even if that was all there was... because they suck at killing and they are a pain in the ass to use

[Scootaloo]

28. From the producers of "The Dred Scott Decision," and "Corporate Personhood" comes...

[ellisonz]

25. ...

[laundry_queen]

41. Good point.

The constitution is a relic from the 1700's and needs to be completely rewritten.

[dixiegrrrrl]

7. Dunno...this headline indicates it ain't just the guns

Knife-wielding man injures 22 children in China (Today at a school)

BEIJING (Reuters) - A knife-wielding man slashed 22 children and an adult at an elementary school in central China on Friday, state media reported, the latest in a series of attacks on schoolchildren in the country.

The man attacked the children at the gate of a school in Chenpeng village in Henan province, the Xinhua news agency reported.

Police arrested a 36-year-old man, identified as villager Min Yingjun, Xinhua said. It did not give further details of the extent of the injuries.

from this DU post:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10021984701

which goes on to say that knife attacks on students is increasing in China.

[trailmonkee]

15. I am hoping you forgot to include the 'sarcasm' part?

[Terra Alta]

21. how many people will killed in the knife attacks? nt

[Care Acutely]

24. STUPID, ingermane NRA-meme-of-the-day FAIL

[Mojorabbit]

29. I think there will always be people that just snap. nt

[Scootaloo]

30. If you guys keep rubbing that article, you'll go blind n/t

[quakerboy]

32. I agree. Halfway

Its the conditions that make the person who is willing to use the gun or knife. Not the gun or knife.

At the same time, All those parents in china are still able to hug their children and make plans to spend their next holiday together. No fatalities recorded. So its not quite the same, is it?

[Honeycombe8]

8. If only it were that simple. That's a large part of it. But we Americans are just damn violent.

Dontcha think?

I read an article that said gun deaths have actually been declining in the states for a couple of decades. BUT mass murders are up. That leads me to think it's the assault weapons that are part of it. Then there must be something else. What, I don't know. A need for fame, notoriety? Copycats? One incident seems to beget another.

[trailmonkee]

12. We have always been violent... but now everybody has access to the vehicles of violence...

just about anybody who decides that the best thing to do is to go out and kill people... all they need is a few grand and a week or two, to put together enough firepower to kill dozens of people in just minutes.... that's if they don't already have access to there own, or somebody else's guns and ammunition

[Honeycombe8]

33. But gun deaths have been declining, despite cont'd access to guns of all sorts.

It's the mass murders that have been increasing. That's a different sort of thing.

I think it is copycatting, for some of these. It's no coincidence that this incident follows the shopping mall one of a few days ago, where teh shooter barges into the mall dramatically saying, "I'm the shooter!" dressed in combat clothes. I can see where a nutso hears that and thinks, "What a dramatic way to go! Go out in blazing glory! I already have ninja clothes, too! And the guns! What else do I need? What am I waiting for?" And then an argument breaks out with mom....boom! Time to start my mass murder, going out in a blaze of glory plan! I'm going to target those who mattered most to Mom...those damn kids at that damn school, living their perfect lives in their perfect little world

[trailmonkee]

9. .

[ananda]

16. This has something to do with street gangs, gangsta wannabeism, and..

.. fear of gangstas and hoodies with mean street guns.

[HiPointDem]

31. this kid used handguns. not the gun you posted. yes, better guns = higher kill ratio, but

nothing to do with why people feel driven to kill strangers en masse in the first place.

[trailmonkee]

40. he also used a .223 caliber rifle... I posted in the op

[cthulu2016]

43. Yes, but what is posted in the OP is not true

The Bushmaster was not used in the school shooting.

It was in the shooter's car.

[Edweird]

34. The shooter used handguns. Back in the day all guns were available via MAIL ORDER -

including FULLY AUTOMATIC BARS and Thompsons. Gangsters used them to shoot it out with the police and each other, but there weren't any school shootings. Sorry, but your position that guns caused this just doesn't hold water.

[trailmonkee]

35. they also found a .223 caliber rifle in his car..... i'll put it in the op

http://assets.nydailynews.com/polopoly_fs/1.1220784.1355546806!/img/httpImage/image.jpg_gen/derivatives/landscape_635/newtown-guns-12152012-390.jpg

Weapons used by Adam Lanza, 20, alleged shooter in Sandy Hook elementary school rampage.

Read more: http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/ct-school-shooter-made-combat-weapon-article-1.1220431#ixzz2F8Pd6po4

[Edweird]

39. It states very clearly that he only used the handguns.

PS - none of those are "heavy duty". That's sensationalist BS.

"Adam Lanza killed his mother at their house, then stormed into Sandy Hook Elementary School carrying a Glock 9 mm handgun, a SIG Sauer handgun,"

How the hell do you "brandish" ANYTHING that's in a car and you are in a building? You can't. Saying he did anything other than leave it in the car is a lie. He didn't use it. He didn't have it on him. He wasn't 'carrying' or 'brandishing' it.

[AverageJoe90]

36. Sad but true.

But of course, there are plenty of hardcore right-wingers, such as that ambulance-chasing Rethug Jack Thompson, will absolutely INSIST, that hip-hop, violent video games, violent movies, etc., are the problem, and not the lack of enforcement of existing regulations(or even the existence of real regulations, period), or the fact that the Reagan administration gutted our mental hospitals.

Sadly, though, I've actually come across a couple of people on this site who are actually repeating this rather obvious RW talking point.....and yes, once again, just to clarify, I am indeed referring to blaming "violent media" for our woes.

[cthulu2016]

42. The Bushmaster was not used in the school shooting. Please delete.

[trailmonkee]

44. They Found the rifle in the back of his mothers car in the parking lot