No amount of legislation is going to cure our sick society. For fuck sake. (edited)

[NYC_SKP]

Go ahead and give the government even more power and give up more rights.

AND, at the same time kvetch about drones and how the police didn't let a protest here and there continue.

You can't have it both ways, people.

The cure for our ills isn't in writing more laws. Sure, some well crafted legislation can help but giving up the second amendment is crazy talk.

But you all go ahead and carry on.

Edit: (those without an honest rebuttal jumped on a throwaway line, now deleted. How weak.)

[Fumesucker]

1. There are plenty of societies with far fewer guns than us and no death camps

[NYC_SKP]

34. More guns, fewer guns, it's a distraction. Our society is very sick.

Rich getting richer, no hope for the young, pensions and health care plans plundered, lower and lower wages and no hope.

Add to the list, we are in a bad way, and passing laws just isn't going to change a thing except make it easier for those in power to take even more power away from us.

[KoKo]

53. Indeed our society if very sick...disparity between the top 1% and the rest

and "Pop Off's" will become much more common. First by the mentally imbalanced...but, then by those "going off the edge" with all they believed in imploding before their eyes and no way out of it or a way for hope for the future.

Sadly, we may see more of this going forward. So many Assault Weapons and so little time to do anything about it. And, a lack of will by those who think that "Gun Rights" to Military Style Weapons are their God Given Right.

Sad Times Indeed and the underlying problems ...NOT ADDRESS...YET!

[Glitterati]

2. I will never give up

Today was my tipping point.

I am no longer willing to give gun owners the benefit of the doubt.

Today I devote myself to work harder, longer to take guns out of the hands of MONSTERS like today's shooter.

NEVER. GIVE. UP.

[HappyMe]

12. Yes, we have to keep guns out of the

hands of monsters like this guy. But we also have to find out why there seem to be more and more of them. Taking away their guns doesn't fix the monster.

[NYC_SKP]

22. Precisely! Thank you!

You were clearly at the head of your classes, or should have been!

[Glitterati]

24. No we don't.

I do not care what possessed this MONSTER to site 20 babies in his gun sites.

There's not a thing that can excuse, justify or defend that.

I don't CARE why.

I only care that we never let it happen again.

[anneboleyn]

38. Yes. Plus we already know that sociopaths murder people

Why "person x" becomes a sociopath is obviously the subject of much research in psychiatry and criminology; however, having "empathy" for those who -- like this creep --murder helpless innocents (other sociopathic serial killers like Ted Bundy and mass murderers like Harris from Columbine) is a whole other demand. I have no empathy for sociopaths who seek out the vulnerable and murder others to get a "high," which is what is happening.

[HiPointDem]

61. completely circular. you may as well say "we already know people who murder people murder people"

[HiPointDem]

60. that's easy to say, but it *will* happen again regardless.

[Care Acutely]

41. Today was my turning point as well. I will dedicate my life to ending the gun-fetish

enabled slaughter of our children, neighbors, brothers and sisters. Enough is enough. Today it begins to end.

[Zoeisright]

3. Completely, absolutely, 100% fucking wrong.

As usual.

[anneboleyn]

25. Amen. OP claims that an abundance of laws="death camps?"

I am totally confused.

[Arugula Latte]

4. You mean the right to slaughter as many people as possible with an assault weapon

as quickly as possible? Wouldn't want to be inconvenienced now, would we?

Jesus fucking Christ.

[HappyMe]

5. You are right about that.

You can't legislate away the fact that there are some deep underlying problems in society. People that want to destroy themselves and people around will always find a way. We have to work on why this is happening.

[Glitterati]

27. Screw WHY

JUST. STOP. IT.

[nadinbrzezinski]

6. So background checks= death camps?

Ok...

[Warren Stupidity]

7. Horseshit.

We can regulate and limit gun rights just as we regulate and limit all of our other rights.

Equating gun control with death camps is obnoxious right wing horseshit. Joe the Plumber was all about that idiocy.

Shameful post.

[Bonobo]

14. Shit, I could not say that better.

What an absolutely fucked up, shameful, wrongheaded, paranoid, creepy-ass post.

[anneboleyn]

46. now "death camps" is a "throwaway line." rather offensive

to invoke death camps and then chastise other posters for taking it as part of the argument (and reacting to historical travesties) is unfair

[aquart]

8. Don't be ridiculous. Fastening on the extremes of distress? Please.

And saying we can't have it both ways is a Republican-like refusal to deal with reality. We have it both ways and three or four others besides because life isn't as simple as a three-year-old's coloring book.

[rDigital]

9. +1 nt

[Warren Stupidity]

15. Look you found someone to agree with "gun control enabled the holocaust."

I thought you no longer held that position, or were only joking or something.

[alcibiades_mystery]

10. We can solve problems with legislation: death camp talk is throwing up our hands and giving up

We identify problems, develop legislation, and solve them. This is the ultimate progressive value. if there are bad laws, we repeal them, including the 2nd if need be. Death camp talk? Progressive legislation is death camp talk? The idea that we can solve problems with government is death camp talk?

As another poster so eloquently stated, HORSESHIT.

[ellisonz]

11. "Sure, some well crafted legislation can help"

That's my point! I remain a believer in the democratic process and our ability to as Lincoln put it:

It is rather for us to be here dedicated to the great task remaining before us—that from these honored dead we take increased devotion to that cause for which they gave the last full measure of devotion—that we here highly resolve that these dead shall not have died in vain—that this nation, under God, shall have a new birth of freedom—and that government of the people, by the people, for the people, shall not perish from the earth.

[Agnosticsherbet]

13. The sick in the society are those who claim we can do nothing over the bodies of twenty murdered

children.

We are a nation of laws and it is damn time that guns face the same limits as freedom of speech, the press, or any other liberty.

Liberties are not without limits.

It is time we quit using the second amendment as an excuse keep from addressing the biggest public safety issue in America today.

Guns are a plague on society and we should demand the same level of regulation on guns and gun owners as we demand on banks and corporations.

[backscatter712]

16. "death camp talk"?

[NYC_SKP]

17. How about an actual rebuttal?

don't have one... right?

[backscatter712]

20. And help you stir the shit?

I think not.

[Justin_Beach]

18. The US government

and no doubt others ... are putting weaponized satellites in space. They have stealth aircraft, missiles that can pick a fly off a dog from 1000k away and within 5-10 years they will have these (but weaponized)

http://www.digitalversus.com/meet-kuratas-giant-japanese-robot-n25462.html

Even if we pretend for a moment that death camp fantasies are true and that somehow being able to pick up a gun out of a vending machine helps ward off tyranny - a civilian army, even one armed with automatic assault weapons, simply would not have a chance.

Even in Syria, where the government is primarily armed with antiques, the revolution would have long since been over if the world simply looked the other way.

Protect the first amendment, protect against unreasonable search and seizure, protect against invasion of privacy ... but even proposing the possibility of a violent revolution against the best armed, high tech military in the world is silly. It would be suicide, plain and simple (unless I missed something and suicide is what you want the guns for.)

[oldhippie]

26. "a civilian army, even one armed with automatic assault weapons, simply would not have a chance."

Yep, that's why the Taliban and Al Qaeda have been completely obliterated and Afghanistan is a peaceful utopia.

[Justin_Beach]

35. Again, if the US used it's full weight

that would be the case. If the US didn't care about "collateral damage" - didn't care about civilian casualties or infrastructure damage Afghanistan would be a wasteland and the war would have been over long ago.

You have to assume, if the government was truly a tyranny (enough so that it warranted wide spread rebellion) that it would by tyrannical enough that it didn't really care if there were civilian casualties, so long as the intended targets were wiped out ... nuke a few cities if it ends the problem.

When the Constitution (and the Declaration) were written they were referring to a foreign king, who might (if provoked) send creaky wooden ships loaded with men carrying muzzle loaders. If that king could have simply pushed a button and leveled Boston and Philadelphia ... there is a good chance that no one would have signed the declaration.

[HiPointDem]

62. actually, if the world looked the other way, there probably wouldn't have been a 'revolution,'

since us intervention funded and armed the 'revolution' in the first place.

[Laurian]

19. Unrec, Unrec, Unrec! Where is the damn Unrec button?

[backscatter712]

21. The best I've got is Downvoting Roman. n/t

[Honeycombe8]

23. No, we can't legislate these incidents away. And the 2nd amendment is safe. But SOMETHING can be

done to prevent SOME of these incidents from happening. A thorough background check, a waiting period to buy, the barring of military or assault weapons. That would help, maybe.

It's worth a try. We've seen the alternative.

[NYC_SKP]

28. I'm all for firming up the background checks, closing loopholes, enforcing the laws we have....

But I live in California with some of the toughest laws and they just don't make a difference.

It's a symptom, and laws are a bandaid.

[Honeycombe8]

44. I just read a Washington Post article by Ezra Klein that says just the opposite.

It has stats and such. The states with the toughest gun laws do, in fact, have fewer deaths from guns. The south (the area with the most guns) has a much higher death rate by guns than the other states. Here's the link:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2012/12/14/nine-facts-about-guns-and-mass-shootings-in-the-united-states/

So the laws do have an impact. I didn't think they would, but stats show that they do.

CA is one of the states with a low death by gun rate, compared to other states. But the U.S. is deaths-by-guns rate is far above other countries. The US also has a high # of guns per capita, compared to other countries. But the guns are out there in the public, now, so nothing can be done about that.

[Fumesucker]

29. So you say something remarkably stupid and then snark when you're called on it?

You're usually better than that, I'm disappointed.

[NYC_SKP]

31. What part of "our society is sick" isn't clear?

so sure, the death camp thing was too provocative, but I am reading some pretty sorry posts on DU today that seem to suggest that all will be fine if only we got rid of guns.

Well, you and I both know that people will still be angry, and sick, and underserved, and feel cheated, and we'll still be a sick society.

Sorry to disappoint.

[Fumesucker]

36. You've been around DU long enough to know the reaction that line will get

Right here on DU we have people cheering on drone strikes that kill kids by the dozens if not hundreds.

Yeah, our society is sick, a fish rots from the head and our society is rotting from the very top, I honestly don't think there's anything that can be done, the rot is too pervasive.

[KoKo]

55. When we killed kids in Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya, Syria, Africa...with our "War on Terror"

we do seem to set a stage for VIOLENCE...as what ends up back here in the USA with what we SOW (seeds we spread)...we REAP...(that's some old biblical thingy from a time long ago.) Doesn't mean much except as a parable tied to something. But, it came into my mind.

Sorry about that for popping off and offending the atheists or anyone else here who gets offended about anything.

These mass killings in the US are a symptom of something and we need to get hold of it but, it does make me wonder if our actions abroad aren't coming home to roost here within our culture. When we plant the "seeds of mass distruction" in other cultures...some of those seeds drift back and take root in our own soil and sprout into weeds amonst our own ...the deranged the "pop off distressed" and into the mainstream culture of worship of violence that we Americans are so fond of in so many ways from our founding.

[Whisp]

30. I think you are sort of right.

It's very complicated.

but what isn't complicated to me is. If I had a store house full of every weapon available, just because I did wouldn't make me go and do what was done today.

so yeah, you are more than sort of right.

something is really wrong, all over, everything is wrong if this kind of thing is common.

And I think that main problem started when we became consumers instead of citizens and were led down that path like millions of pac mans gobbling up shit we don't need for the very few who will always need more $. We were water spiders dancing on the surface of greed and want on a pond of something much more worthy. But that doesn't sell.

It's unnatural. Our whole world has become unnatural.

[NYC_SKP]

33. Thanks. (nt)

[kelliekat44]

32. The real "crazy talk" is the interpretation of the 2nd amendment by the gun enthusiasts. nt

[Warren Stupidity]

37. Oh you took out the death camp reference.

Nice move. Real courage of your convictions there.

[KoKo]

39. Ahhh...I didn't know. You are a Libertarian.

I wish you'd declared this earlier.

When you say this...what else could you be as carefully as you present your views:

You said:

The cure for our ills isn't in writing more laws. Sure, some well crafted legislation can help but giving up the second amendment is crazy talk.

But you all go ahead and carry on.

[KoKo]

40. Edited to reply to you "Skip"...much as I respect you...wrong on this.

(See edited above post)

[NYC_SKP]

43. Got it, thanks, see my reply below.

On this one matter a lot of progressives are firm about the 2A....

Wishing you a happy holiday season, really!

[NYC_SKP]

42. Oh now really....

That's a low blow.

I'm with a number of my occupy Santa Cruz friends on the matter RKBA:

We need them, people should know how to use them, how to keep them safe, but to give them up outright is not a prudent way to go when we look at the long view.

Libertarians, meh, they want absolutely no regulation, let the meanest motherfucker survive, go global, screw unions, screw healthcare.

That's not me, KoKo.

You should know that.

[KoKo]

47. Okay...if I got you wrong..you say you support "Second Amendment"...so you wouldn't

change anything after what we've seen with these mentally imbalanced going off with semi-automatics with packs of bullets they can fire off rapidly so that two classrooms of little kids get so maimed that the Police couldn't even let people view crime scene because it was just "body parts and blood?"

Now...yes ...I'm being extreme...but, for you to post something about "Right to have arms...militias" in this old document to something the Founding Fathers could have not had any vision of (as clearly forward thinking as they were..which was amazing) to get to the point where anyone can buy a gun or rifle that allows you to do MASS MURDER in minutes time with Magazine Reloads with your Semi...to wipe out little children and others when you have a Melt Down...sort of goes against what could have been imagined by the writers of the 2nd Amendment.

You are a Libertarian! FESS UP... And you know I luv Ya! But...I never knew THIS ABOUT YOU!

[KoKo]

48. You would not give up your "automatic, repeating weapons" and go back to One Shot per Kill?

Maybe even restricting the ammunition?

You feel you need "Repeating Armaments?" How much ammunition do you think it takes to kill an intruder or to hunt for your family to live to kill an animal.

Do you and your friends Hunt to Live and feed your family? Do you have that many "intruders to defend yourself from that you need enough Fire Power and Ammo to blow away a terrorist or home grown Militia? How many Terrorists do you expect to show up at your door and mow you down that you need access to "repeating fire power" and magazines of bullets to defend your rights.

Love ya, Skip...but, I never knew you thougt like this or hung out with the Gun Crowd.

Here in NC ...I know what this is...but, assumed you beyond that and that's why I'm surprised to learn this about you. But...never mind. Don't want to trash you...for what you believe. I just never saw it revealed and so it was a surprise. Now I know..so all is good to know.

[NYC_SKP]

49. I don't hang out with a gun crowd, it's just that I take a long view.

Raised on a farm, I have some of grandpa's guns and just one 22 pistol that I bought for myself long ago.

I just don't trust the police state to let them be the only ones with arms. It's that simple.

I would try to make more universal the patchwork of laws we have, and I would instill strict no-tolerance laws on gun related crimes and criminals and make it hard as hell to get a weapon.

But it's so much bigger. We need to care for our mentally ill, we need to care for us all.

We need to restore hope to the working class and promote pride and civility, and elevate our schools and students, and demonize greed, etc., etc.

We are sick, and we need a holistic approach in order to ever reduce the stress and violence we see.

Like I said, this violence is a symptom.

Let's get to the heart of the disease!

I know you agree on that much of it!

[KoKo]

52. Oh...I grew up in a hunting culture...but they didn't use Automatic Assault Weapons of

rpeating single guns to hunt with. My father, grandfather and the others didn't have "repeating assault weapons" with magazines of bullets that could be used in rapid fire to hunt deer, squirrels or rabbits (during the Great Depression or earlier) to survive to live to eat...or to protect their rural land from some intruder who came armed to take their land.

Repeating Assault Weapons with even single guns being used as Rapid Fire with a belt load of ammunition ready to load to kill two classrooms of kids is not Protecting yourself ....it's access by the mentally unstable to be able to do mass slaughter of innocents in a mental breakdown.

I agree, Skip, that mental health problems need to be addressed...but the atmosphere in the USA today means that even "balanced people" are living on the edge and can "pop off" without warning with no prior evidence of mental imbalance that could be recognized from their past behavior or even if there was some problem, our health system doesn't get folks health they need when they need it and not ALL professional health is top quality for mental health problems.

But, if I can purchase an Assault Repeating Rifle or Gun and Mow Down groups of people from an outburst of anger or mental disease then it means that "2nd Amendment" is being broadly interpreted and has gone TOO FAR.

This isn't our Father's and Grandfather's Rifle and Pistol...these are REPEATING ASSAULT WEAPONS that are more for Military use in WAR than Hunting and Home Protection.

I agree with what you say...but, you also know this isn't your father and grandfather's weapons. These are MILITARY STYLE weapons. And, they should be banned, imho.

[DaniDubois]

45. People are quick to give up their freedom for safety, but they'll never be truly safe.

They can exchange our freedom for gun bans, but as they can tell you in Mexico when guns are banned, you're children will still not be safe because the criminals will always have guns. If you want to give up something, demand the TSA have checkpoints at all schools, sporting events and malls. You'll be much safer with this than you would be banning guns. This is where the US is headed, anything to keep us safe is the phrase of the day, while no one will address the real issue of mental illness. Why?

[KoKo]

50. No we can never be truly safe...but, when there's an imbalance in Soicial Structure

there tends to be an increase in mental imbalance along with folks just trying to stand up for their rights in Groups which causes push back from the Power Structure of the time and Military Enforcement grows to counter the insurrection of those feeling the "power imbalance."

America today...Bankers on Wall Stree and Dot. com.."Con Artists" enabled by Wall Street brought down our system TWICE! First time with Dot Com...burst...didn't affect so many...but they got wiser and it all morphed into the Banking Industry enableled sadly by our Dem President who allowed himself to be hoodwinked by Phil Graham and Robert Rubin (Alan Greenspan) into getting rid of much of what FDR had done after the Banksters in another era did to bring on the Great Depression with the Stock Market Speculation Crash of 1929.

Folks here know the history...so don't need to give links..and the rest wouldn't read the links anyway because of limited time or limited interest...but, we gave away banking safeguards and Nafta was the Globilization during our Democratic President Clinton's two term Presidency. Whether he was co-opted to do much of this by attacks on him by the RW against both he and Hillary when he won Election First Term and that's why NAFTA passed or if the Lewinsky Affair caused the RW and Greenspan/Rubin to use him to get their DREAM LEGISLATION through while he was under the gun of the STARR Commission...at this point doesn't matter. THE DEED WAS DONE.

Here we are with us and Obama living under what was dismantled of the SafeGuards that FDR put in place that were dismantled finally under a Dem President ...that started under "St. Ronnie Reagain."

Here we are today.

[Skip Intro]

51. +100. nt

[rustydog]

54. No body in the USA needs to have a FUCKING AR15- SKS- or high capacity magazines!

God damn it, are the deer and elk shooting back, are they forming malitias and killing off the hunters?

No, innocent Americans are being slaughtered. We need Gun Control. Period.
The second amendmnt says well-regulated militia,not fucking nut with assault weapons.

[KoKo]

58. Agree...but, somehow this message doesn't get through to those who

need to hear it....Who needs this kind of firepower except the Military (and, I worry about that, too given what's going on with what we are doing overseas.

[RetroLounge]

56. Death camps was a throwaway line?

Your entire argument is a throwaway line.

pathetic gun trash

RL

[Initech]

57. Maybe we should take George Carlin's idea and convert states into prison farms.

[NYC_SKP]

59. We are well on the way.

Sadly....

Hope you have a happy holiday season, initech!

[aandegoons]

63. We regulate each and every day those things which are produce that harm people

I just don't get the argument that guns are off limits.

I mean just put other things in your post and see if it pans out.


No amount of legislation on lead is going to....

No amount of legislation on PCBs is going to....

No amount of legislation on guns is going to....

No amount of legislation on global warming is going to.....

No amount of legislation on cigarettes is going to....

No amount of legislation for seat belts is going to...

Get the picture?

Stop carrying water what you write makes no sense.

[quaker bill]

64. So we should give up?

Secondly, you are wrong. Women do in fact have the right to vote, and no one seriously contests that anymore. Slavery is pretty much gone and public acceptance of it as "property rights" is entirely gone. Minorities can vote and even elect a President. Most overt and public discrimination is gone (more subtle forms remain in places), but we are a better society for if. Interracial marriages are now quite common.

All these things took some time to pass, and longer for implementation and acceptance. But they were worth doing.