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[milestogo]

This message was self-deleted by its author (milestogo) on Sat Dec 28, 2024, 11:53 AM. When the original post in a discussion thread is self-deleted, the entire discussion thread is automatically locked so new replies cannot be posted.

[TheBlackAdder]

1. Now, its primary use is to staff Trump properties with housekeeping and groundskeepers.

[Hugin]

3. Wives...

Don’t forget, wives.

[Ocelot II]

2. Exactly. And H1b employees are exploited because they're bound to the employer.

They can't quit for a job that pays better. The employer comes with the visa, so if the employee quits (maybe upon discovering that the going, non-H1b rate for the job he's doing is twice what he's making), his visa expires. So it's almost a kind of indentured servitude.

[Yavin4]

10. Straight up Feudal Serfdom

That's exactly how Feudalism worked. Exactly.

[dalton99a]

4. It was about cost. Corporate MBAs didn't want to hire Americans and pay American wages

[paleotn]

7. A pity we produce too many homegrown finance and business types and not enough engineers and techs.

And many of the STEM people we do produce get sucked into Wall Street for big bucks, producing nothing of any real world significance. Oh, sorry, I forgot about "financial innovation." Like that's going to improve anyone's life by creating the "longer lasting lightbulb." It did help create an economic collapse of biblical proportions globally in 2007 / 2008. Gee, thanks, Wall Street.

[uponit7771]

15. IT Bach degrees have doubled in the last decade, Musk just wants cheap labor (link)

https://www.studentclearinghouse.org/nscblog/computer-science-has-highest-increase-in-bachelors-earners/#:~:text=The%20number%20of%20students%20earning,the%202022%2D2023%20academic%20year.

The number of students earning a bachelor’s degree in computer and information sciences has more than doubled over the last decade, from 51,696 in the 2013-2014 academic year to 112,720 in the 2022-2023 academic year.

[paleotn]

23. Is that keeping up with demand for IT headcount?

Engineering has always been a popular field, yet the number of graduates still can't keep up with overall demand. Possibly the same in IT. I have heard that we are keeping up in some engineering disciplines and certain skill sets but in most it's the same old story.

[uponit7771]

33. Yes the headcount is beyond what is needed especially since US IT unemployment is 6% - WSJ

[paleotn]

36. Interesting.

Wish it was like that in my world. Then we wouldn't have to fight those dastardly people over at Lockheed for talent.

[paleotn]

5. Ain't that the truth. Indentured servitude is a nice way of putting it.

Fact is, we need them and need them desperately. The US doesn't produce enough home grown engineers and IT guys. STEM in general. Hasn't since forever. Didn't back in my college days in the 80's. That was very good for us but not good for the US economy.

So, instead of being thankful for the services of H-1B guys, filling a desperate need, we under pay them. And the big tech firms aren't hiring them directly. They hire through slimy "consultancies." Third parties who exploit tech's even more. H-1B rules are a mess on purpose. Tech firms lobby both political parties to keep it that way. Not a high priority for Dems either which annoys me.

[milestogo]

9. Guess what? There are lots of women in IT

and there are still attitudinal barriers to hiring women in IT jobs.

So think twice the next time you say "IT guys" or "H-1B guys". It doesn't take a dick to write code or program a router.

[paleotn]

12. Guys, in colloquial terms, means both women and men.

Next time you're in a restaurant, ask the server if they're only addressing the men at the table when they use that term.

I get the sensitivity, but it's misplaced on me. On my team, as long as you can do the work, I don't give a shit who you are.

[milestogo]

13. I don't respond to "guys" and my managers know it.

Its not that much extra work to acknowledge women. Its the right thing to do, for everyone.

[paleotn]

18. Agreed. But maybe that energy should be channeled....

against your actual enemies. Not a single word in an internet post by one of your close allies. Pick your fights strategically. Decide careful if that's a hill you want to die on.

[littlemissmartypants]

20. ...

[milestogo]

38. I shouldn't have to "fight" with people on DU.

You should get it, but apparently you just expect women to put up with it, just like Republicans do.

[paleotn]

39. I get it. We're not fighting. But you are flaming.

Careful with that.

[maspaha]

16. Not to be rude...

But, your attitude is why so many women leave tech & engineering jobs. We are valuable and we are sought outside the tech field specifically for our analytical skills and management skills…

Would you like to be addressed as “gals” then hear it’s just colloquial?

Language matters and so does sensitivity

….Just sayin’ as they say

[paleotn]

17. Attacking your allies is not a good strategy.

A third of the country wants to go back to "gals." Just saying.

[maspaha]

19. Educating does not equal Attacking

Again, sensitivity does matter

[MuchBetterThanThis]

22. Seems like the way Right-wingers change

the topic when they have nothing credible to add.
Who gives a shit about semantics when CONTENT is what is really important.
This is why people suck IMO.Even when aligned and on the same “team” people seem to always find something to cast shade on the messenger👎🏽

[maspaha]

26. Stop it!

Who’s “sensitive” now?

Language defines content. It matters.

[paleotn]

32. Not always.

[maspaha]

37. Language and word choice IS how we communicate

Understand your audience.

There are several words that do address every one without regard to gender or sex, for example “everybody”, or my fav from the south, “y’all” or the un-contracted “you all”, or “you-ens”

Also understand we’re ALL a bit touchy now.

Enjoy your Saturday. I’m done here for the day.

[paleotn]

40. Ha! My wife said the same... "Just call them y'all and be done with it." She cuts to the chase so well.

I grew up in the south so it comes natural.

[paleotn]

31. Yes it does.

But education can sound and feel like enforcement depending on how it's done and in what context. I don't have a problem with it. Whatever you like is fine by me. But for many, the focus on what some would think is nit picky feels like enforcement and can cause a backlash. Be strategic. Be discerning. Be reasonable. That is all I ask.

[milestogo]

41. If you're an ally, act like one.

Calling all IT workers GUYS means all IT workers are assumed to be men. At least that's what it means to us.

Do you know what its like to call for an outside vendor and when they arrive they say "I'm here to see the IT guy". And its a woman who called the vendor! Women have been in IT jobs for decades - but the male world is still clueless. Its the same cluelessness that made some men not even consider Kamala Harris or Hillary Clinton seriously as presidential candidates.

I don't know any IT women who want to be referred to as "gals".

[paleotn]

42. Jebers, would you give it a rest?

[allegorical oracle]

21. A female relative got a bach in geography and a masters in GIS mapping. She had a

choice of jobs. Finally got fed up because even though she was a program manager leading a team of men, she learned they were paid double what she was paid. She quit, went back to school and got a medical degree.

[RandomNumbers]

6. Yes. And the staffing firms also take their cut.

There is a lot of money being made off bringing people to the U.S. And I bet there's an incestuous relationship between many HR departments and their H-1B providers.

But let's be clear. These folks who want to come to the US, (mostly if not wholly) are coming here to make big $$$ (for them - much better than they would make in India) - rather than for any humanitarian reason. I have worked with many, and when I've known, I've found that most are coming from upper class (Brahmin) families. So in other words, this is a strategy for (relatively) rich families to get richer. This is NOT a humanitarian immigration program. (not that it pretends to be but some who don't know better might assume that aspect exists. It does not.).

[Yavin4]

11. I've worked in India. The avg citizen there doesn't have a PC in their homes.

Your family has to have money to even afford a computer. So, we're seeing the offspring of the wealthy class coming here to work, mostly.

[sop]

8. For the same reason corporations have customer service call centers staffed with people called "Bob"

who barely speak English. Unfortunately, for tech bros, certain jobs can't be off-shored.

[BigMin28]

34. Yes

I recently had to deal with Yessica and Yohn. Perhaps I'm cynical, but I don't think that was their names.

[uponit7771]

14. ***THIS !!!*** WSJ - US IT unemployment is 6% !!! There never was a US IT worker shortage they wanted cheaper labor

[camartinwv]

24. Exactly right plus, the H1B that I worked with work 12 hours a day and weekends as a matter of course.

[AverageOldGuy]

25. Here's another H1B story

I live in a waterfront rural Virginia county. One of our neighboring counties is home to the B_____ family, a VERY wealthy family whose business is oysters and crabs. They operate in the Chesapeake Bay and the Gulf of Mexico.

The bulk of oysters and crabs are not sold in the shell. Oysters are shucked and crabs are picked.

Oysters are shucked -- the oyster shucker sits at a table wearing a rubber apron and heavy duty gloves, wielding a short oyster knife, facing a huge pile of oysters. Grab an oyster, pry the shell open with the knife, hope you don't slip and stab your hand or arm, drop the oyster into a bucket, toss that shell into a pile, and do this for 6-8 hours a day.

Live crabs are dumped into huge vats of boiling water, usually with some mild seasoning. After a few minutes, the dead, boiled crabs are dumped onto huge tables. Seated or standing along the tables are crab pickers -- heavy rubber apron, what looks like a pair of pliers that crack the crab's shell. Pull off the claws, crack the shell, pick the meat out, drop it into a bucket. Ditto for the rest of the crab.

And who are these shuckers and pickers? Mostly Mexican, some Central Americans. They are recruited in Texas and Louisiana where they work on H1B visas during the Gulf fishing season for B_____ Oyster Company or one of its subsidiaries. At the end of that season, they are piled into vans and driven to Virginia where they work for the Bay season. In both Louisiana and Virginia they live crowded together in houses owned by the company. Back during the COVID lockdown, 100 or so arrived in W______ County, VA, to work for B______. One of the shuckers managed to get the attention of a deputy sheriff who called the county health department who found 16 (I think was the number) living in one house -- 9 tested positive. As far as I know the health department took no further action, the story was never in local papers, I learned about it from the deputy. The B_______ family are big Republican donors and a daughter of the family was for ten years a Republican member of the Virginia House of Delegates -- all of which had nothing to do with the inaction by the health department -- right? It's rumored that she is the heir apparent to our current Republican House member.

I know two young black men., both of whom were shuckers . . . until about eight years ago when they and the other local shuckers asked for raises.

Is this the best way we can grow our big orchards?
Is this the best way we can grow our good fruit?
To fall like dry leaves to rot on my topsoil
And be called by no name except "deportees"?

[Nigrum Cattus]

27. 100% Greed !

The U.S. has more than enough IT professionals. The corps want
hungry, young, people to overwork & under pay. They use H1b as
a threat to keep them producing - work harder or go home !

[Bluetus]

28. It is illegal to pay H1B recipients less than the comparable wage paid to Americans for the same positions

But, illegal, schmillegal. I's sure that assholes like Musk completely ignore that. There were never any consequences before, and there most certainly will be none under the Trump regime.

[RandomNumbers]

35. Ha ha ha ha ha

Sigh.

You are TECHNICALLY correct. But guess whose wages rise very, very slowly?

Related, true story: many years ago, the IT department I was working in, had an exceptional young woman (black, American born) as an intern. She didn't have direct experience but was interested in learning. (Great GPA, good course load, good local school). I'd had hiring success before and went back to my VP with a proposal that we would bring this person in and train her initially in one specific area where we had a ton of work. Relatively low training investment initially, and over time we could broaden her skillset. This was in the fall, when the intern program was ending. But sadly, there were no open positions and they said no way could they do this. "Don't need anyone at this time".

Guess when they DID decide they needed people? If you guessed "in the spring, when H-1B allocations opened up" - you are a winner!! Sure enough, in October they didn't need her, but they were just fine posting a position in February that ended up being filled by H-1B candidate.

Nope, no games going on here, none at all ...

[marble falls]

29. It was meant to lower wages.

[JHB]

30. Anyone else have tales of "job listings designed to not be filled"?

Not me personally, but from friends in the industry:

"Must have ten years experience in (technology that was only invented five years before)"

Then the companies can claim they can't fill the positions domestically.