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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsI have a theory about our nation's misogyny which may be too simplistic, but keeps coming back up in my mind.
From the mid 50s to the 70s American TV was peopled by "strong, often silent men" keeping law and order. Now I do realize that they were there because of prior myths of our culture, but we were inundated with these TV shows. There was rarely anything to counter these mythic shows.
I know I struggled a lot with getting passed their message when I was growing up. I still find myself falling into the thought patterns that men solve problems and woman are school teachers and saloon owners (if they're lucky).
I don't believe that Europe was nearly as inundated with this type of TV show. Probably because it wasn't nearly as important a myth for them. They had seen first hand what "strongmen" accomplished.
Yes, I know this is very simplistic and, of course, it doesn't solve our current problem of blatant and destructive misogyny. I've just often wondered what our nation would be like if we hadn't had TV propagandizing with a couple of decades of Western heroes.
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cachukis
(3,613 posts)Been around since forever.
Johonny
(25,276 posts)Last edited Thu Jan 2, 2025, 09:24 PM - Edit history (1)
And America was founded by patriarchal men, based on heavily patriarchal western culture that continues to be taught at home in much of America.
People learn this at home from an early age. American Christian conservatives are heavily patriarchal as are Catholics . . .
NJCher
(42,292 posts)Westerns. Never thought about why, but reading your post, I now see the reason.
Demovictory9
(37,113 posts)Saving the planet while everyone else sat on their hands
MiHale
(12,534 posts)Along with that the entertainment field now is littered with violence. Murder and mayhem seem to be the going theme in most.
My wife and I like to watch old half hour comedies in bed before going to sleep. Some of what we thought was funny 20 years ago are now uncomfortable to watch cause of the misogyny. So we don’t. It’s been there for a long time.
Yes the entertainment industry has and is shaping our psyches in ways we’re not immediately aware of.
liked MASH, but now I can hardly watch, actually I haven’t watched it in a while. If I see it now I find it rather offensive in how the head nurse was treated at times as well as the other nurses.
Aristus
(71,534 posts)But the movie at least made it clear that the source of the surgeons’ animosity is that they were reluctant draftees trying to provide superior medical care in the face of bone-headed, militaristic, reactionary regimentation.
MomInTheCrowd
(339 posts)… to put women back in “the kitchen” after WWII
Biophilic
(6,377 posts)
Attilatheblond
(8,114 posts)that the women had been doing while the men were at war.
But a lot of women rather enjoyed working outside the home, earning money, having larger lives. There was probably some resentment. I know my mom had stories about the re-adjustments women were expected to make so 'the boys' could get back to their civilian lives and traditional breadwinner roles. Sadly, a lot of those men were pretty messed up from the war, and many, too many, relied on alcohol to get thru their days. That left a lot of families with 'breadwinners' who actually could not be relied on to support families. A lot of women went back to work. Again, resentment from many sides in many cases.
So, TV soothed the gents by showing them myths about the good guys always being the guys. And commercials like: "would he hold hands with a pine cone?" to sell soap told women to be scrub women AND beauty queens. Again, impossible to balance what society was being programmed to believe and realities. Maybe little boys grew up (or some just got bigger) thinking their place would be assured due to gender. Reality can really slap hard when people believe in myths*.
* and we are seeing a lot of the trouble that can cause in society to this day, what with so many people believing in new, more dangerous cultural/socio-political myths while actively denying what is right before their eyes. Schisms between dearly held beliefs and conflicting realities are a sure fire way to mess with mental health on a large scale.
wnylib
(25,355 posts)Last edited Thu Jan 2, 2025, 10:49 PM - Edit history (1)
After some successes in women's rights by suffragettes in the 1800s and early 1900s, the movement was suspended during WWI.
As the western territories in the US became states and Native Americans were confined to reservations by the end of the 1800s, the "Old Wild West" became glorified in the early 1900s with tales of conquests by heroic strong men.
During WWII, society accepted women in a broader variety of jobs "for the war effort," while men were off at war. But when men returned, women were expected to stop working outside of the home and tend to housekeeping, children, and being social assets for their husbands in their jobs and in the community. (Poor women, widows, divorcees , and many women of color still worked out of necessity, but at lower pay.)
War veterans had access to funding for college and upward mobility became a theme for young families in the late 1940s and throughout the 1950s. Women were expected to be appendages of their husbands, entertaining their business and community contacts, keeping a perfect home, using whatever intelligence and organizational skills they had for running a smooth and stressfree household.
That period of the late 1940s and all of the 1950s coincided with the development of TV. A large number of programs were either westerns or sit coms.
The westerns picked up on the old Wild West myths from the late 1800s and early 1900s of heroic, conquering men. They featured patriarchal families like the Cartwrights of Bonanza, cowyboys like in Rawhide, rescuers like the Lone Ranger. The heroes were highminded, ethical strong men constantly in gun battles with bad guys and Indians (one and the same in most scripts),and brought civilization and "the American Way" to uncivilized wildernesses. Women were dependent on them for protection while they confined themselves to "female things" like cooking and tending children. (Miss Kitty in Gunsmoke was an exception.)
The mythical images in those westerns were about as realistic as the portrayals of the West in Blazing Saddles. In reality, the women worked side by side with the men, plowing, planting, and harvesting. They learned to use guns when their husbands were away. And they still raised the children, cooked, cleaned, did laundry, and made the family's clothes, or mended and altered the few store bought ones that they had. They learned to use home remedies without a doctor in rural areas. They birthed their children alone if the husband was away, or depended on help from Native Americans that they befriended.
My husband's aunt once showed me a letter that her great grandmother received in the 1800s from a family friend who was a missionary in the Kansas territory. He wrote that the Indians were the civilized people of the West. They had well established customs and courtesies that they had practiced for many generations. They regarded honesty and integrity in their dealings very highly. They were more spiritual and faithful in following their "Pagan" religions than the White settlers and frontiersmen were in following their own religious teachings.
He wrote about settlers as ruthless, cruel, greedy, dishonest, and generally lawless. For many of them, being married homesteaders with families did not settle them down. He concluded that the kind of men who were attracted to settle in the West were social misfits who could not abide by common decency rules of civilized people, so they sought "open spaces" to live as they pleased.
EarthAbides
(413 posts)I agree with what you are saying for the past, but I keep wondering what are the messages that my grandkids are growing up with? All of those shows you are referencing are long gone. Even my kids would not watch them. So where is this misogyny coming from now?
Biophilic
(6,377 posts)The psyche runs deep. Mostly we have only a fraction of an idea of what we are passing on to our children.
Iris
(16,827 posts)and it contributes to play out through social media, "influencers," and other forms of entertainment (music and football come to mind)
Biophilic
(6,377 posts)I don't know. We are so deeply into the patriarchal culture that I don't see how right now. Very frustrating.
Iris
(16,827 posts)Assertion that "Change does not roll in on the wheels of inevitability, but comes through continuous struggle"
We just have to keep trying. Someone else in this thread mentioned changes in who stars as main characters movies so there's some progress to point to.
mokeyz
(97 posts)I hope parents are trying to foster equality but we are screwed if the majority are still having the boys take out the garbage and the girls do the dishes🤦🏻♀️
Biophilic
(6,377 posts)
Mike 03
(18,690 posts)the generation of men who fought in WW2. They came back and in the material sense times were good, but they had seen and experienced terrible things, and the message they got from TV and movies was not to talk about it. The two children of WW2 veterans I was fortunate enough to know said their dads didn't talk about the war. I also wonder if there was a lot of alcoholism among that group of men.
So the next question would be about the sons of that generation. What impact on them did it have to have fathers like this?
Fast forward to the 90s. I know there was a lot of discussion about misogyny in early rap music, and then in video games. I can't really draw a connection between the masculine archetypes of the 50s to 70s. I began paying attention to movies in the 70s and the male characters comprised a wide spectrum. I liked the "anti heroes", the good people who did unpopular things---from "All The President's Men" to "And Justice For All." Woody Allen's films and movies like "Kramer vs Kramer" portrayed softer, more intelligent men. The Viet Nam films certainly ran a spectrum too. Spielberg's male characters. William Friedkin, early on, loved the hard-boiled guys (The French Connection, Sorcerer), but then he made "Cruising", in which Al Pacino's character struggles with gender identity and insecurity about his masculinity. And that's barely scratching the surface.
Cinematically, the 70s was an incredibly rich decade.
Biophilic
(6,377 posts)My dad was 4F plus he was a doctor training other doctors, but he always felt less than as he didn't go off to war. I was born in 46 so I was raised on those TV shows and loved them. It took me years to figure out that I didn't really want my own Lawman, because that was who I saw as the perfect male.
I did appreciate the switch in the 70s to the 'anti heroes', but I was also too deeply involved in various careers to do much movie watching so I never got saw enough to modify my earlier prejudices.
kerry-is-my-prez
(10,200 posts)His little brothers idolized him. He was not very misogynistic and neither was my brother. My dad’s favorite show was Mary Tyler Moore - at home he was pretty laid back. My mother and I were more the type A “boss type” workaholics than them. I was a very competitive athlete and my brother had no interest in athletics and was not competitive at all. My dad was a “borderline” alcoholic but was very controlled about his drinking, but my twin brother was full-fledged alcoholic. My brother got picked on by bullies and I would go around and beat up the bullies (I am female). It was almost like our roles were switched - I was a tomboy and he was a mama’s boy. My dad’s mother wore the pants and was pretty scary and put my grandfather in a nursing home because he had depression and she considered him “a pain in the ass.” My mother, brother and father were Republicans and I was the rebellious Democrat. All of this may have had something to do with the fact we were of Dutch ancestry. I think the “strong female” role was a Dutch thing.
LizBeth
(11,222 posts)That is not ok. My father was my hero, I was like 5 watching some man spank a grown ass woman like a child and from that day on I thought Wayne was a creep. I wonder what my father was thinking when I looked up at him and said this, if it let him see it differently but it is something I have always remembered from way back when.
Wounded Bear
(63,748 posts)That film was a take off on Shakespeare's Taming of the Shrew.
Misogynistic for the present day, TBS, but set within those eras of time.
LizBeth
(11,222 posts)And I really do not give a fuck the reason. It was gross, and gross for a little girl to watch. I thought men went around spanking their wives...
Wounded Bear
(63,748 posts)John Wayne and Maureen O'Hara.
While that part of the denoument was misogynistic for today's taste, the story within the movie makes it clear that she needed some kind of lesson in interpersonal relations. Not sure how they could re-write that part, but the rest of the movie was quite entertaining as a western dramedy.
LizBeth
(11,222 posts)LizBeth
(11,222 posts)John Wayne's character spanks the character Katherine Gilhooley McLintock played by Maureen O'Hara in McLintock! and he spanks the character Ameilia Dedham played by Elizabeth Allen in Donovan's Reef.
Loosely based on taming of shrew and no wasn't needed and ya allowed, cause it was the thing and you can bet thaat was not because of Shakespeare but because it was the attitude then that you spanked grown ass women. Commercials, tv shows and movies. The was not isolated and was not because of Shakespeare.
speak easy
(12,591 posts)Is spanking a little girl any better?
LizBeth
(11,222 posts)
Diamond_Dog
(39,627 posts)Who thought John Wayne was a hateful creep for spanking a woman in two movies. I don’t care what the reasoning was. I was appalled at it even as a child and I hated him for it. Justified beating of a woman. I never could stand him ever since and I never thought of him as a big American hero like everyone else seemed to.
LizBeth
(11,222 posts)
BlueTsunami2018
(4,818 posts)A little spanking can be fun. 🥸
LizBeth
(11,222 posts)usonian
(23,239 posts)
Wounded Bear
(63,748 posts)some of whom were very strong, accomplished leaders, a few more effective than most men.
Americans don't have that group memory.
Biophilic
(6,377 posts)Yup, lots of female power role models in Europe. Here, all we had were men 'taming the wilderness' which was often portrayed as female.
Also, as I recall, Europeans consider most of their great cities as female. Dang, the more I think about it, the more I realize how much we have to overcome.
Thanks for those additional thoughts.
RobinA
(10,464 posts)this as "our nation's" problem at all. From what I can see it's pretty universal, if improving glacially in most places. Princess Charlotte is the first female who didn't have to get to the end of the British succession line, just to name one example.
Biophilic
(6,377 posts)But we seem to be unable to get past it no matter what. There have been many European countries with female leaders as well as Israel. And they have a history of female leadership such as Elizabeth I and Victoria or the numerous national leaders of the 20th 21st centuries.
I just feel like we are so deeply stuck in our patriarchal/misogynistic rut that I don't know how we will ever get out of it. I find it very discouraging and frustrating. I know there are a lot of different influences on this issue. Because I was so strongly influenced by the 50s and 60s TV shows I have often wondered about their influence nationally and historically.
Attilatheblond
(8,114 posts)
Elessar Zappa
(16,385 posts)But your theory may be correct about the way males were portrayed. Of course, misogyny was even worse in the eras before television.
Attilatheblond
(8,114 posts)
jalan48
(14,914 posts)
303squadron
(767 posts)All you need is a special type of repeating rifle and you too are the “good guy” a la Lucas McCain!
Biophilic
(6,377 posts)When I think back now Maverick was the only show with an interesting male lead who could think through a problem.
Iggo
(49,577 posts)Good Times. Cagney And Lacey. Police Woman. Maude.
All from the 70s. (Except maybe Cagney And Lacey.) And that’s just off the top of my head.
Biophilic
(6,377 posts)After Viet Nam things got stirred up a bit. It was the 50s and 60s that had the stereotypical shows I’m thinking about. Following WW I.
ecstatic
(35,003 posts)How did half the population manage to keep an open mind?
Biophilic
(6,377 posts)That’s the basis of what I was thinking. I think a large part of the country was deeply influenced by those shows. We are now the grandparents of the people raising kids now. How much influence did the boomers have on their children and their grandchildren.
I don’t know. I only know how influenced my sister, brother and myself were and we were raised in an upper middle class family in a university town.
IronLionZion
(50,722 posts)spewing very hateful rhetoric to normalize deplorable behavior. They were a major part of getting Trump elected.
Biophilic
(6,377 posts)Srkdqltr
(9,305 posts)Biophilic
(6,377 posts)I simply was wondering about those tv shows from the 50s and 60s that were almost universally known. After all there were only 5 or 6 stations to choose from.
usonian
(23,239 posts)As divine writ.
Biophilic
(6,377 posts)usonian
(23,239 posts)Seek root causes.
Biophilic
(6,377 posts)I was thinking about the cultural influences that might support the basic ideas/prejudices. Talking about the so called root causes is a huge question and basically unanswerable. I was merely commenting and question an ancillary cause. I'm not so silly that I think I could even come close to knowing the root causes of patriarchy/misogyny. Mine was simply a small cultural question that I though might be interesting to discuss.
usonian
(23,239 posts)The western hero (fake). The wise Dad (and smart but receding mom) and Al and Peggy Bundy and all that man-shaming.
A twisted mess.
Biophilic
(6,377 posts)I remember the man, in a cowboy hat usually, who came in and solved all the problems and usually brought peace to a town or a ranch. And, it was always a man. Women were to be rescued and/or kept safe.
I find your perspective interesting and informative. Obviously I have some blind spots. I’m now wondering how much of my own prejudices impacted my memory.
usonian
(23,239 posts)Zane Grey created the old west.
Doc Holliday and Wyatt Earp were pretty rogue.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doc_Holliday
I can't comment on the women. I honestly don't know, but Puccini set "The Girl of tbe Golden West" in Sacramento, and Minnie was a card-playing, gun-toting heroine. One of the few operas where nobody dies at the end. Many kill off the principals.
In early tv series men were solid citizens like Ozzie Harriet, Robert Young and Fred McMurray, IIRC.
Then at some point, men became lazy, vain fools like Al Bundy (The real Ed O'Neil had ads for Kamala!!!! ) and Carrol O'Connor (Archie Bunker) was a liberal, go figure.
I have no idea why, and it's certainly not women's liberation, because men were in 100% control of networks and film, AFAICT.
Call me if that ever changed.
Last male figure I saw in tv was David Carradine, in Kung Fu, a different kind of person than "western" characters, though set in the old west. A Coast Guard buddy and I would watch in a local pub with $3 pitchers of beer at the time.
I gave up TV. 
In fact, aside from Kung Fu violence ( admittedly defensive) which is a tiny minority, the overall Buddhist ideal of a strong, peaceful, compassionate and benevolent man suits me better than all western stereotypes, which as I noted, have transmogrified over time, and look at the juvenile crybabies and blamers we have now. Some followers of the Lotus Sutra are highly socially engaged, and view the practice as equally for others as for self, contrasting with the self-aggrandizing western notions, including salvation of oneself, regardless of others. It's more holistic.
Well, that's all for now.
oldtime dfl_er
(7,130 posts)I recently watched a clip of a Mary Tyler Moore show, which when I was a kid I thought she was pretty independent, but it turned out she was sitting around with Rhoda lamenting that they wished they were married.
In a lot of ways, the old I Love Lucy depicted a stronger woman than Mary, or some of those others.
viva la
(4,463 posts)With the strong silent armed marshal and the many times he "had to shoot" bad guys who came into Dodge City armed and looking for trouble.
The podcaster went back and researched and found out the real Dodge City, like most towns in the 19th Century, were gun-free by law, and everyone had to surrender their weapons before entering town. There were no shootouts on the main street.
So the TV producers made a conscious choice to misrepresent the level of gun activity in our past, making it seem that gunplay was central to our culture.
Biophilic
(6,377 posts)Sometimes I really feel stupid that I didn't recognize this before or at least take a second look, but I had been trained to believe what I saw on TV. Good grief. A good hunk of my life was conditioned by that. I know that is true in all cultures, that stories were used to teach and train the populace to follow the rules etc, but I still get angry because so much of it was no true!
viva la
(4,463 posts)And many of us grew up thinking the "Wild West" was our actual history-- who we really were.
=-
always ready for a fight, refusing to negotiate, violent in our blood, and always right.
Biophilic
(6,377 posts)milestogo
(22,446 posts)1973- Title IX gave a huge boost to womens sports
1973- Legalization of abortion
More and more young women were going to college and entering the professions.
The women's movement was taking off.
Television and movies reflected this, but it was usually after the fact.
Biophilic
(6,377 posts)Very different from what came following our involvement in Viet Nam. That seemed to create a huge change of popular tv shows.
snot
(11,424 posts)it becomes very obvious that movies from different eras are propagating certain attitudes. In some cases they may be reflecting what's already out there in the world they're portraying, but it very often appears that they are selling certain values and attitudes.
I'm sure that multiple causes play into this result, but bear in mind that much if not most of our media has been actively recruited and sometimes even infiltrated by government agencies to, e.g., help drum up or maintain support for a war, or improve the agency's image (a relatively recent example: "Black Panther," in which the CIA is black people's savior -- when's the last time you heard of that happening in reality!)
(A rather shocking number of the pundits appearing in the MSM are also CIA or "ex-" CIA -- the affiliation is an open secret, but it's easy to miss hearing it.)
Biophilic
(6,377 posts)
Straw Man
(6,925 posts)What we're seeing now, I believe, is the degree to which the lines between reality and mythology have been blurred or altogether obliterated. Think of the time before mass media. How was the cultural mythology reinforced? Through literature and, to a lesser degree, theater. And, of course, there was the church. But exposure to all of the above was minuscule when compared with the overwhelming bombardment of images and sounds we experience on a daily, or even hourly, basis.
Reality TV, podcasts, propaganda, memes, etc. have replaced the daily real-life, real-time interaction with each other that used to dominate our human experience. Reality has become negotiable, and people choose the particular version of it that they prefer, in an endless, self-reinforcing loop.
IcyPeas
(24,756 posts)Any woman who dared to speak out was called this.
He popularized this derogatory word.