I'm so tired of the Dems self-flagulating and blaming themselves.

[yellow dahlia]

Yesterday I saw a clip of Chuck Schumer saying the Democrats didn't show enough empathy to the people. BS!

Last night I saw James Carville say the Democratic Party needs to stop sounding like the NPR academics. He wants the Democratic Party to dumb it down. Are you kidding me!? Should members of the the Democratic Party apologize for being smart? I don't want to be led by the dumb ones. The current Repug/Magat Party is a manifestation of the dumbing down of America.

For the past two months, Democratic leaders and Congress members have been engaged in an "after action" mindset that has them apologizing for their message. Their narrative has been that they haven't been communicating with the people properly.

There has been talk of regrouping and reorganizing in a way to somehow remake the party. They are acting as if the Democrats were engaged in a huge failure. Not true!

The results of the election (whether they be completely legit or not) were influenced by rampant misinformation, disinformation, propaganda, and lies.

Could the Democrats have done a better job of countering the misinformation, disinformation, lies and propaganda - perhaps. BUT - it is not easy, especially when the media is facilitating the delivery of the disinformation and protecting the propaganda, when instead the media should be calling out the lies.

How much did election interference and voter suppression play a part in the 2024 election? I don't know. Were there other malfeasances that played a role? I don't know.

Did Kamala Harris and Tim Walz run a good campaign? I think so.

Are the Democrats perfect? No. But do they have to apologize and start all over? NO!

And if they decide to "dumb it all down", they may be making an historically irretrievable mistake.

[Chemical Bill]

1. Watching tv last night...

I told my wife that dumbing down the Democratic message won't reach any deplorables until Democrats are willing to lie constantly.

[kerry-is-my-prez]

57. I think "saying it simply" to people who aren't as bright is good.

I used to train people and I figured out that you have to explain things slowly and at an elementary level if you want most people to learn. And, if you’re lucky to be training someone bright, you can let it “fly.” I also worked with people with developmental disabilities - which can be frustrating but I find that a lot of these MAGATs are honestly a bit similar to them. They just do not have the proper education. Many people simply do not make the effort when something seems a little complex and get turned off. I have three friends with genius level IQ’s and when they are trying to be more clever than the other and in a “battle of wits” I’ve gotten to the point to just let it fly over my head. I could spend a lot of time trying to figure it out, maybe doing a bit of googling, but I have better things to do with my time.

[allegorical oracle]

65. Don't recall that Kamala over-used big words. Thought she was optimistic and outlined the

differences between herself and TSF. Three of my acquaintances who had voted for T-rump two times before, voted for Harris this time.

[CrispyQ]

2. Agree!

IMO, Harris ran an almost flawless campaign & that's not even taking into account that she had three months to put it all together! She wasn't given any credit at all for Biden's great economy but she carried all his baggage, plus she was expected to state her policies & how she would implement her plans & she did that while the media let Mr. I-can-fix-everything-in-two-weeks totally off the hook. Plus she did it in heels & backwards! Okay, so maybe not that last but you get my drift.

I'm still angry with Biden & his comment that he would have won. WTF?! IMO, he would have lost by even more.

[Elessar Zappa]

3. Yes, he definitely would have.

Before he stepped out of the race, internal polls showed him down by double digits in states like New Mexico and Nevada and even losing in New Jersey. No, he made the correct choice.

[yellow dahlia]

5. Love the Ginger Rogers reference.

[La Coliniere]

8. I agree that Biden would have lost by a wider margin than Harris.

Last edited Mon Jan 6, 2025, 06:22 PM - Edit history (1)

I also think that the Harris/Walz campaign did the best they could given the short amount of time they had to pull it together. Their policy proposals to help the middle class and how it contrasted with what the felon was proposing were obscured by most of the media. Did we hear how Harris wanted to tackle price gouging as opposed to the felon’s tariffs that would increase prices? Never. That’s just one example. I blame the media substantially for why Democrats lost.

[arthritisR_US]

63. I so agree, your media gave him the win. Mega corps wanting

the money.

[BannonsLiver]

4. So just run it back in 2028?

[W_HAMILTON]

59. That's what the shithead about to be president did, did he not?

If this last election proved anything, we are very much a "vote AGAINST something" electorate and if voters, for whatever reason, are unhappy with the current state of the country, they will vote out whoever is in charge because they hold them responsible for it, regardless whether it is their fault or not.

Twisting and turning ourselves into pretzels thinking we are accomplishing anything when this will be the ultimate outcome anyway is a fruitless endeavor.

Fact of the matter is, if Trump and his Republicans fuck things up the way we all expect them to, they will be voted out in the next couple of election cycles -- assuming we still even have a functioning democracy at that point.

No matter how great our messaging is, I've yet to see a viable solution to how we get it to overcome the rampant propaganda from the right.

No matter how terrible our messaging is, if the country is in a shithole state, even the rightwing propaganda won't be enough to overcome that and save Republicans (see: 2008, 2018, 2020, etc.).

[BannonsLiver]

61. Yeah I just don't buy the idea that nothing can be improved on, the messaging is so good it doesn't need to change.

I’m not saying you’re wrong but I don’t like the idea of not being proactive. They will fuck it up. It makes sense to me to double up on it and to be in a position to maximize whatever benefit comes our way.

[kerry-is-my-prez]

6. People hate it when you are much smarter than they are.

I’ve been called “over-educated” a few times. Envy often leads to jealousy and hate. I have been stabbed in the back many times at work and by even by a few neighbors. You see it when you get promoted or when a hateful person sees you have what they want.

[Walleye]

26. We can't let anybody make us change who we are.

[kerry-is-my-prez]

29. No but I'm just going to lull people into being stupid

and then pounce when I need to.

[Walleye]

53. That sounds like a plan. I've been doing it all my life sort of.

[kerry-is-my-prez]

55. I'm lucky that when I get angry, I get deadly calm instead of losing it.

People think I’m a laid-back person who likes to joke around - which I am 99% of the time, which sometimes attracts bullies, but piss me off, and I am not very much fun. I have a tendency to piss some people off being in management, liking change, and being a female ENFP. I’ve developed rules of how to deal with assholes and problematic bullies at work. I have ended up getting a couple of bosses fired/demoted, but they were cancers in the workplace and total assholes and bullies. Unfortunately, along the way, I have gotten fired - which is how I learned all the lessons I have learned.

[Biophilic]

7. No, the last thing we need to do is dumb the party down.

We need to make people want to vote democratic. We need to build on the laughter and excitement that Kamala and Tim were attempting to do. They simply didn’t have time and we have to work on the message.
MAGAs love trump because he makes them feel something. Unfortunately, it’s fear and anger, but that is better than boredom and ennui. People thrive on emotion. Any huckster will tell you that. Right, Donald? He really is the perfect huckster.
We need to get people emotionally connected and committed.

[Trueblue1968]

60. Dont dumbdown. Expose all the GOP lies for what they are. Throw the lies back in the liars face.

Make the media tell the truth.




Expose lies !!!!!!

[kerry-is-my-prez]

10. The Democrats needed to fight against the propaganda that kept going up and up.

We needed to repeat over and over again our successes and their negatives. What pisses me off is the Republicans use of psy-ops and psychological concepts when most of the people in the psych field are Democrats. I’m blaming the Dem leaders from not realizing how bad it was getting and from not fighting more viciously. I blame myself as someone in the field for not being more outspoken when I saw what was going on. I blame the Dems for bringing butter knifes to fight against AK47’s. The Dems have been “too nice” and have followed the rules to the “t” when the other side is cheating right and left.

[yellow dahlia]

13. Agreed.

The high road thing isn't working, as unsettling as it is for me to say, having been a "high road" proponent myself.

And if nothing else, we need to use our brains, not apologize for them.

[kerry-is-my-prez]

19. I've always had a bit of naughtiness. Used to cheat at cards against "the boys"

By using hand signals. We admitted that we cheated and it wasn’t for money or anything so it was just sort of funny. They tried to come up with ways to cheat too. They could never figure out what we were doing. It was “the girls vs the boys.”

[kerry-is-my-prez]

20. But according to the "rules of war" don't let them know it.

Lull them into sleepiness, then attack!

[Tesha]

11. Thank you!

Dems didn’t lose - propaganda won.

[chouchou]

48. Your words are very true. As you well know, many elections are won by 2-3 percent and less.

All it takes is Fox News lies and SOB's to tilt the proverbial platter, and some of the dinner is on the floor.

[mahina]

50. Also countless bots

Whose countless anti-democratic messages were not refuted because - who wants to out themselves to a hoard of extremists?

Will there be a pacifist Peace loving or pro democratic bot hoard arguing the other perspective next time? I sure hope so.

[VBNMW]

52. Copium

Resulting in a LOSS.

We don't teach children to wish a loss away in a soccer game. Why must we tell ourselves weird shit to feel good? How does that help win in the future if allowed to vote again?

[PedroXimenez]

12. they're both talking about messaging

i think the future of the dems will be in different policies, aimed more at working-class people.

[Keepthesoulalive]

16. What policies have republicans given to the working class

Most teamsters voted for asshole . He wants to give tax cuts to his billionaire buddies and cut the things working Americans need to survive. Working class people are the folks who pick your fruit and work in the slaughter houses but he wants to deport them. Don’t get me started on visa programs. Legalized slavery. If you quit you get deported. The democrats have been on the side of the working class since FDR, perhaps their is something else going on.

[yellow dahlia]

33. The Dems HAVE been working with policies that are aimed at working class people,

for years...and in a multitude of categories.

[bronxiteforever]

15. People follow passion- good or bad

Chuck is so wrong plus the election is over. How about showing passion for the fight now! Trump has negative dark triad charisma. We need to counter that everyday (rhetorically).

Get a Senator on who can sneer like John Kennedy from La or Rand Paul but sneer at the GOP. This billionaire boys club of the GOP is going to rub the American people the wrong way and we should make it their albatross and hang its corpse about their neck.

Hakeem Jeffries showed the country what the GOP is all about. They don’t respect opposition or accept losing. Time for us to kick some sand back.

[drmeow]

17. What I want to know is

how was this campaign different from Obama's two campaigns and Biden's campaign? Show me (with specific examples) where Obama and Biden did things one way and Harris and Clinton were noticeably different. Do so without resorting to gender stereotypes (you know, like "shrill" or comments about smiling). I'll wait.

[yellow dahlia]

18. Good question.

There were a lot of variables.

[kerry-is-my-prez]

23. The Reps finally reached the apex of all their years of spreading propaganda.

They’ve been repeating propaganda over and over, they’ve figured out how to take over the media. A few smart Reps who knew psychology came up with entire methods of manipulating the uneducated and/or those with low IQ’s into step by step voting against their own interests. And they were especially joyful considering that they pulled something over on “the elites.”

[drmeow]

25. Yes, we can thank

Frank Luntz, among others, for that!

[Walleye]

27. Agreed, and of course he never takes responsibility

[drmeow]

42. Although he used to take credit for it.

Now that the beast he created has reached its anticipated extreme, he doesn't really like it - but none of them acknowledge that it was a straight line from Reagan to where we are now. When the super rich spouse of my very remote extended in-law family said "but I'm a Reagan Republican" it was all I could do not to make a cutting and contemptuous response!

[BlueTsunami2018]

71. Obama was a phenomenon.

He’s was super smart, super cool, an outstanding orator…..a generational political talent.

Combine that with how horrible W’s term went, particularly at the end, and there’s no question why he did so well. I don’t think we’re likely to see anything like that again, on our side, for a long time.

Biden squeaked it out because people were so sick of Piss Wig’s endless nonsense that they came out in droves to vote against him and Joe was safe.

Hillary was hampered by the decades long propaganda campaign against her, the fact that we had eight years of a Democratic President and, for whatever reason, suffered from likability issues.

Unfortunately Harris carried the baggage of the perception of Biden. They did a really good job but no one knows it. Her message was drowned out by the billions in dark money and she didn’t help herself by saying she wouldn’t have changed anything.

Ultimately though, she and Secretary Clinton are women. And that is apparently still a big problem.

[drmeow]

72. My point was that the messaging

was not that radically different between them - Americans won't vote for a woman!

[mr715]

74. Also

Democrats only voted for a female presidential nominee once in Secretary Clinton. It isn't just Americans, it can be democratic primary voters.

I think 2008 and 2016 are worth a close analysis that is probably very depressing.

Vice President Harris, to my eyes, ran a flawless campaign. She lost likely because of headwinds and that was baked in from the start. I am disappointed especially that she did not win a plurality of the popular vote.

[UTUSN]

21. Knr for hear hear

[PunkinPi]

64. No, but it is a strategy, especially against the darkness that tsf represents.

And policy, she had it and advocated for it on the stump (I watched nearly all of her campaign speeches). https://kamalaharris.com/issues/

[PunkinPi]

70. MVP's platform was for the working class (see link I provided).

At some point, it's incumbent upon the voters to educate themselves because she was out there spreading the message.

[Cosmocat]

66. But, apparently hate, rage and division is

because the guy (and his dim witted vp) who won had zero policies other than promising whoever he spoke to what they wanted to hear, and an endless stream of hate, rage and division.

[senseandsensibility]

24. I was tired of it the second the election results were announced

We did nothing wrong and we ESPECIALLY did nothing wrong when you compare us to the competition. I'm at the point where I think Dems need to start calling out the media (the R's have made a cottage industry of doing so) and going on offense more.

[yellow dahlia]

36. Agreed.

I monitor right wing media. I fact check it on a social media account.

It's scary and creepy and difficult to counter. But we need to figure it out.

[Evolve Dammit]

28. totally agree. There is nothing wrong with Dem values, and I will never apologize for them. Kamala/ Walz rocked it.

[Dem4life1970]

30. I Agree 100%

Project 2025 polled just above cancer, pedophiles, and COVID. No one wanted that. So much so that the nominee, Orange Julius Caesar, started lying about it and distancing himself from it. And then he made all kinds of promises that were pure blatant lies and he won't be able to do any of it. All he wanted was their vote so he could stay out of prison and enrich himself and it worked. He just happened to be in an election cycle where incumbents lost all over the globe and he was not seen as an incumbent. I have never seen people vocally and on television and on social media talking about how much they regret their vote. No, this is not the time for a huge democratic overhaul.

[calimary]

31. No Democrat has ANYTHING to apologize for.

At least not from where I stand.

[Kilgore]

32. Maybe its the messaging

I live in what has been a reliably Democratic rural county. Since president Obama's second term it has been drifting Republican. That drift was pronounced this election with Trump easily winning.

These are not strangers, but folks I interact with every day. Yes they were not happy with inflation, but by far they turned away from voting Democratic due to what they describe as dissatisfaction with the party focusing on DEI, WOKE, transgenders in sports.........you get the idea.

From discussion over coffee, they believe they and their issues are ignored. Typical issues were environmental regulations involving timber, agriculture, commercial fishing, diesel fuel, and being forced (not my term) into EV everything, illegal immigration, crime...........you get the idea.

Here is the telling part. I ask what president they want back in office if they could choose. It's pretty much always Bill Clinton. They love the guy. I see it as more a case of retuning to democratic values of the past. That will bring them back

I know this probably will inflame some folks, fine, go ahead and flame away. I hear what I hear, I see what I see.

[Keepthesoulalive]

43. That was Republican message

Democrats didn’t have anything to do with the hate. That will find anything that will frighten the majority of white Americans and pound away and the mainstream media will amplify it. Many of them are just looking for an excuse. Why would they vote against their interests, because there’s something in it for them.

[yaesu]

34. I think USA has an article about declaring war on stupid in this country

as stupid voters gave us tRump.

[Irish_Dem]

35. Dems don't have enough empathy?

This is bullshit.

[yellow dahlia]

38. Seriously!!!?

I did a double-take. What did he just say? Huh? What?

I know we try not to trash the Dem leaders, if we can help it. However, I am concerned Schumer doesn't have what it takes to be in the position in these times.

Personally, I would choose Sheldon Whitehouse or Chris Murphy.

[Irish_Dem]

45. I agree. Time to take the gloves off and start punching.

Not being victims and blaming ourselves for what the psychopaths are doing.

[Blue_Tires]

37. Agreed... I've said as much in other threads

But from now on, Dems have got to fight relentlessly and they've got to fight dirty...

[Hope22]

39. We don't need to attract Magas....

We need to reach the young people, new voters and Dems that feel abandoned by the Dem leadership not standing up and fighting. We also need a media channel that stands with the Democratic message. The last five years everybody ate everything TSF served up and tried to make the Dems justify their position at every turn. They projected Trumps age and dementia on to Biden and we let them. The last two months Biden has been hitting it out of the park….with zero credit or thanks. When Hillary ran against T it was the same story. We need to own the message instead of responding to baloney! We need to fight back. I say we but frankly I don’t think I have another four years in me. The last twelve years of this guy have taken their toll.

[Codifer]

40. I suppose then,

that the next step is to convince Rachel Maddow to wear a very short skirt and sit at a glass desk.

Good luck with that.

Probably should bring up the subject by phone.... preferably long distance.

[kkmarie]

41. Actually was just thinking

Thinking about what is being said about the Democrats and the messaging needs to change. Harris and Waltz message was not elitist. They were talking about helping the real average Americans. We can't dumb down! There's no way to fight the lies and disinformation because the media doesn't want our message to get out. We have to understand why so many didn't vote.

[Skittles]

54. I agree kkmarie

Last edited Tue Jan 7, 2025, 02:07 AM - Edit history (1)

there's nothing wrong with Dem messaging - but there is PLENTY wrong with the status of the media in America - they seemed to cater to the interests of billionaires, IMAGINE THAT

[mr715]

75. Governor Walz

Was expressly picked because of his avuncular and down to earth style.

He was from the mold of "Guy you want to have a beer with," and as the majority report styles him, very much a DEI pick.

[Codifer]

44. Pro tip.

Long term: raise educational standards.

Short term: Gain the maggots attention. I think a fucking two by four might work.

Not a joke. I am not in a good mood today.

[BeneteauBum]

46. Je d'accord

I’ll never understand the idiots who voted for tRump and will never lower myself to the mediocre mindset of the MAGA loonies.
Peace ☮️

[hay rick]

47. The problem is not the message. The problem is "the message" is ignored or misrepresented.

I suggest that the disengaged voters who voted for Trump anyway or would have voted for Kamala but stayed home did not tune in to MSNBC, watch the evening news or read a newspaper. They got headlines from their phone and from the chyron of their local Sinclair station. They scrolled through a shit ton of disinformation on TikTok. They saw endless anti-trans ads during football games.

I posted about TikTok back in June: https://www.democraticunderground.com/100219019254

I think the anti-trans ads were devastating. Democrats were unwilling to respond on an equivalent scale because they didn't want to betray the trans community but they also didn't want to turn the election into a debate about trans rights- a debate they could win on principle but lose at the ballot box. This problem is not going to go away in the future.

[richdj25]

49. Im 66 years young but

these old Democrats need go sit down someplace and let the young folk have the keys. Their ideas are more 21st century driven.

And no, Dems did not fail to reach more people, it was the other way around. Trump got just a few more votes, and still would had lost against Biden's 2020 numbers.

It's the lazy Americans, that didn't show up, who's the problem.

[marti]

51. stop self sabotaging

so true
We didn't neglect anyone in our party- We were right on track at the convention on but Repug strategists shaved off votes with wedge after wedge- not to mention the lying and use of hatred and fear

We have to unite to fight

[B.See]

56. As I've written before, attempts

to fingerpoint Democrats is tantamount to rationalizing and normalizing half of America's UNFORGIVABLE and UNCONSCIONABLE embrace and endorsement of a serial lying, rabble rousing fascist and sore losing, criminal INSURECTIONIST.

There's absolutely NOTHING that Democrats have done that even BEGINS to approach the evil and criminal nature of Trump's and his MAGA accomplices' efforts to undermine democracy and rule of law - all to empower a dictator - and a dangerous, malevolent minded despot, at that.

[LudwigPastorius]

58. Refuse to engage the Republicans on their culture war bullshit.

Just keep pounding it into people's heads that, no, Democrats aren't going to let transgender illegal aliens turn your son gay. We're going to help you get health insurance, protect your social security & medicare, and put more money in your paycheck.

[returnee]

62. Some ideas in response.

1) Thanks for: “whether they be completely legit or not”. My gut says not.
2) Re: media propaganda. I believe any serious party should have a full time, 24/7 counter-propaganda task force. Lies must be countered ruthlessly.
3) I believe any party with a truly progressive platform, properly explained, would appeal to sufficient numbers of people to win any election.

Imho. Thanks.

[yellow dahlia]

68. I like the full time counter-propaganda task force idea.

I started doing a lot of fact checking about eight years ago, and shared it on a social media platform. Others found it helpful because it gave them the ammunition to shoot down the propaganda and disinformation coming from those that had been brainwashed.

I even checked in on the RW media to see what current lies and propaganda they were cooking up. It was nauseating to watch, but I felt I was doing a public service.

I have thought about starting a fact checking blog or something.

[returnee]

69. I would totally support such work.

I’m afraid this will have to be very large scale concerted work and blasted in the media.

[thucythucy]

76. There are so many problems, not with the message but with

the astounding level of misinformation and plain ignorance with which we have to contend.

One example: some voters voted for Trump because his name was on the stimulus checks sent out during the worst of the Covid pandemic. They thought it was Trump personally writing them a check.

A quote heard by a friend of mine:

"Trump sent me all this money, but Biden never sent me a cent!"

As a culture we are beyond neck deep in BS.

And I have no idea how to go about fixing it, certainly not in the short term.

[Clouds Passing]

77. So. Done. With. Carville.

And Schumer, It wasn’t the Democrats that didn’t show enough empathy. It was the media yanking out the Democrats hair while giving the Republicans gentle head massages.