General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsSome things to know about executive orders:
Last edited Sun Jan 26, 2025, 06:31 PM - Edit history (1)
An executive order is a directive by a president relating to the management of executive branch agencies. They have been used by almost every president since (and including) Washington. Lincoln's Emancipation Proclamation was an executive order containing explicit directions to the Army, the Navy, and other executive departments. But their power is limited to the operation of the executive branch, and most importantly, they can't be used to repeal or amend a federal statute or amend the Constitution. They can be and often are challenged in court on claims of constitutionality or executive branch overreach. One of the most famous instances of such challenges was to Truman's EO 10340, which directed the Secretary of Commerce to place all the country's steel mills under federal control. This EO was found invalid in Youngstown Sheet & Tube Co. v. Sawyer, in which SCOTUS held that the president lacked the power to seize private property without express authorization from Congress, and that the EO was an attempt to create law rather than merely direct the operations of the Commerce Department.
Trump's EO directing all federal government agencies to refrain from issuing citizenship documents to anyone born in the US to undocumented immigrant parents is an example of an attempt to legislate by EO, as it is contrary to the plain terms of the Fourteenth Amendments Citizenship Clause and Section 1401 of the Immigration and Nationality Act. So far a federal judge in WA has issued a TRO prohibiting its implementation, but it will probably go to SCOTUS eventually.
The point of all this, though, is to try to answer the question of why it appears that nothing is being done about Trump's blizzard of extreme EOs. I think something is being done, but we aren't seeing it yet because that "something" probably consists in preparing litigation - which is the only way to deal with these EOs. Congress couldn't do anything about them even if Democrats had a majority (Trump would veto anything they did). I believe we will see many lawsuits by many different agencies, organizations and individuals but it takes time (and a lot of money) to do this. If we want to see some effective action we can support the organizations like the ACLU that can handle these cases. We can keep at our Democratic representatives, encourage them to speak more loudly, but the real action will come out of litigation. Watch for it and help if you can.
RandomNumbers
(19,156 posts)As in so many things, just imagine the fury that would be unleashed from the right wing, if a Democratic president attempted anything remotely like this scale and impact of executive orders.
But IOKIYAR.
Igel
(37,535 posts)Rule of thumb #1: No side likes being snowed by the other side's EO.
Rule of thumb #2: When politics are involved, leave statistics that don't support your interlocutors' side on your computer drive--don't even trust them to the cloud.
EllisWhy
(25 posts)I'm old enough to recall the GOP using this phrase in attacking Obama. Meanwhile, Trump's already just 23 EO's away from surpassing Obama's 8-year total (currently 276 to 253).
malaise
(296,114 posts)Thanks😀
Scrivener7
(59,522 posts)Patience grasshoppers! It's not a law and order episode!
Ms. Toad
(38,639 posts)Second, Trump signed an avalanche of executive orders covering a wide range of topics. Each of these which overreach the power of the office of the presidency will need to be challenged by individuals harmed, or by groups representing individuals harmed. Only a handful of them were announced in advance.
Some, which were anticipated, had groups and individuals already primed to act immediately (e.g. the birthright citizenship order) - and litigation has already been filed. Others will take some time to identify potential plaintiffs that won't just get tossed out of court for lack of standing. And litigation costs money. Whoever takes up the of attacking these orders will need access to money.
Attilatheblond
(8,878 posts)But the costs to society are another matter.
Ms. Toad
(38,639 posts)Although I suspect there will be quite a bit of pro bono work being done. I'm retired, aside from supporting former students through the character and fitness process. But I'm thinking about where I might be competent to volunteer.
Ocelot II
(130,536 posts)Support the ACLU, the NAACP Legal Defense Fund, Lambda Legal and the many other organizations that are actually doing something. Pay attention to Democratic states' attorneys general; they've been busy too; 22 of them are involved in litigating the birthright citizenship cases. Some lawsuits can't be brought until the agencies subject to the EOs actually implement them (there has to be an actual case to litigate). But they are happening, sorry if one week isn't soon enough for you. https://www.cbsnews.com/news/trump-executive-actions-birthright-citizenship-doge-courts/ Also, a labor union representing tens of thousands of federal employees in 37 departments and agencies filed a lawsuit Monday challenging Trumps reinstatement of Schedule F and related policies making it easier to fire federal workers for alleged poor performance or insubordination. https://fedscoop.com/federal-worker-legal-challenges-doge-schedule-f/
TomSlick
(13,013 posts)Please keep it up.
paleotn
(22,218 posts)And what other course would you recommend?
Scrivener7
(59,522 posts)Or is it that we simply never learn from the past? Even when the past was just weeks ago.
onenote
(46,142 posts)Calling your bluff.
Scrivener7
(59,522 posts)onenote
(46,142 posts)orangecrush
(30,261 posts)DinahMoeHum
(23,607 posts). . .throw sand in the gears and sugar in the gasoline. amirite?
ancianita
(43,307 posts)Response to Ocelot II (Original post)
LiberalArkie This message was self-deleted by its author.
Liberal In Texas
(16,270 posts)I worry his toadies on the Sup.Ct. will let him get away with a lot if not all of it.
TommyT139
(2,357 posts)... there's an article on the front page of The Federalist media site -- the group that picks the Supreme Court judge candidates -- which supports the trumpist interpretation of the 14th Amendment. It's their plan to get it through the courts so the door can be closed permanently.
Edited to add: No longer on their front page, but I'm guessing this will be the crib sheet they'll be using.
https://thefederalist.com/2025/01/24/trump-is-right-about-birthright-citizenship/
MadameButterfly
(4,039 posts)So much for constitutional law.
canetoad
(20,769 posts)For another anti-knee-jerk explanation. K&R.
4catsmom
(667 posts)and we'll use the courts as our battlefield?
onenote
(46,142 posts)Specifics, please.
MadameButterfly
(4,039 posts)Given SCOTUS we might not win, but we can play their game of delay make them fight for the next 4 years instead of enacting every crazy EO week 1.
In this case, time is on our side. We have to get to 2 years, then 4.
ConstanceCee
(374 posts)I'm donating right now mainly to the ACLU.
JustAnotherGen
(38,054 posts)Believe. They are giving us mealy mouthed platitudes.
Ocelot II
(130,536 posts)MadameButterfly
(4,039 posts)FakeNoose
(41,634 posts)The non-lawyers on DU (like myself) need to be brought up to speed quickly.
Think. Again.
(22,456 posts)...a false aura of correctness.
We should be seeing straight "no" votes across the board.
onenote
(46,142 posts)Are we going to continue shooting at our own or should we focus on hittable targets?
Think. Again.
(22,456 posts)...that are working against our pro-Democratic future success.
MadameButterfly
(4,039 posts)#48
Think. Again.
(22,456 posts)MadameButterfly
(4,039 posts)to show the difference between how they respond to qualified candidates vs. wackos.
Besides, they knew this was the best they could possibly get. They needed to jump at it. Even though he's a jerk and doing Trump's bidding. He has no spine but once upon a time he wanted to solve immigration policy. His party wouldn't let him.
Deep down inside he will have some conscience problems with extreme orders and that's the most we hope for at this point.
Think. Again.
(22,456 posts)...or was there a real risk of a worse choice?
MadameButterfly
(4,039 posts)if they are voting on qualifications, not who they like politically. This was not the bridge to die on.
They should vote against everybody else.
Think. Again.
(22,456 posts)...an extremely important message to be sending out to the public right now.
onenote
(46,142 posts)Think. Again.
(22,456 posts)MadameButterfly
(4,039 posts)either way
Think. Again.
(22,456 posts)MadameButterfly
(4,039 posts)is not caving in. Dems voting for ANY of the other nominees is. Voting for the recent immigration bill is. We need to distinguish between crazy and traditional Republican. Rubio is traditional Republican except for the influence Trump exerts on him. If anything, he's the last adult in the room. We want him there. Because anyone else would be worse.
Think. Again.
(22,456 posts)There isn't any distinction between "crazy or traditional" republicans anymore.
republicans cheering a nazi salute from behind the Presidential podium at the inauguration ended that, if they didn't leave the party at that moment...
They are all nazis.
MadameButterfly
(4,039 posts)I see 3 kinds of Republicans:
1. Traditional Republicans but scared to stand up to Trump
2. Traditional Republicans but willing to collaborate with Trump to gain power and prestige
3. Nazis at heart, obsessed with amassing wealth, and enthusiastic about Trump's cruelty
Don't get me wrong--traditional Republicans are really bad. They have led us to this place. But they haven't historically supported shutting down the NIH, locking up Democrats, and concentration camps.
Everyone Trump is nominating is #3.
Rubio is #1 or #2.
Trump isn't going to appoint a Democrat. #1 or #2 is the best we can hope for. Someone who once wanted sane immigration reform. Someone who in recorded memory wanted to do something good. The rest of them are sociopaths.
For the resistance to triumph, we will need some #1s to come over to our side. Maybe some #2s. People with some measure of conscience who at some point will have a line. The 3s of course are hopeless.
Think. Again.
(22,456 posts)If any of them want to denounce that, they can pick up a Democratic Party registration at their nearest DMV.
spanone
(141,616 posts)yellow dahlia
(5,877 posts)Do we have any idea on who may be taking action?
I plan on writing my representatives...again. I live in a state where my reps are Dems, but I think it is still important to get on the record, so they have the numbers to refer to.
I will try and find out what watchdog legal action groups may be taking action.
Thank you for keeping us well informed.
Ocelot II
(130,536 posts)This writer thinks their removal was probably lawful, and explains why, but goes on to say:
The practical bottom line is that a career official high up in the office of each IG will by law become the acting IG, and Trump can replace that person only with someone already in the IG cadre.
We do not yet know how Trump plans to replace the fired IGs within these constraints. He might nominate new IGs, but they must be confirmed by the Senate, and that likely will not happen this year. The important question is thus whether Trump can find a lawful and congenial replacement for the first assistant under the 2022 law.
yellow dahlia
(5,877 posts)I am grateful for the granular legal analysis.
It will help me to formulate my communications to my Senators.
calimary
(90,021 posts)He reminds me of those movie bandits who said badges? We dont need no stinking badges!
Hes just gonna DO whatever outrage it is, and then see what happens (AND who, if any, might step up to block him).
Ocelot II
(130,536 posts)Even SCOTUS doesn't have enforcement powers. They can issue an adverse decision, but can they make him obey it? This problem was recognized from the beginning.
When he disagreed with the Supreme Court's decision to let the Cherokee keep their land in the face of intrusion by gold speculators, Andrew Jackson is claimed to have said, "John Marshall has made his decision, let him enforce it." This statement is believed to be apocryphal, and Jackson was never called upon to enforce the decision. No president has simply defied a SCOTUS decision - even Nixon turned over the Watergate tapes when ordered to do so, knowing the result would be his impeachment - but we've never had one quite like Trump.
Dem4life1234
(2,533 posts)None of the previous presidents were convicted felons.
Nasty hateful man.
Looking at Truman's one about steel mills, damn that pales in comparison to this madman's.
Indeed, hopefully lots of lawsuits to clog up the courts. If a Dem president did half the things he did, Congress would be so quick to start impeachment proceedings. He should have never been allowed back into the WH.
Ocelot II
(130,536 posts)to "flood the zone," leaving opponents overwhelmed, outraged and unable to coordinate a response - so it's important to step back, take enough time to pick apart what each one means or is intended to do. Some are likely to be merely performative and unlikely to succeed - and they know that. The first intent was the onslaught itself, as well as the difficulty, expense and time involved in responding.
But there's another thing to consider: There will be lawsuits, many of them; and DoJ lawyers representing the agencies involved will have to respond to them (on the taxpayers' dime, unfortunately). Trump is in the process of purging the DoJ of lawyers who worked in the Biden administration and hiring only those who will be loyal to him regardless of other qualifications. This means that DoJ will be full of rookies and inexperienced Trump stooges. They will be confronted with experienced litigators from Democratic state AGs' offices and organizations like the ACLU. These lawsuits will throw quite a lot of sand in the gears, making many of the EOs impossible to implement or enforce.
Fun times...
Dem4life1234
(2,533 posts)Dem4life1234
(2,533 posts)Hekate
(100,133 posts)malthaussen
(18,572 posts)... and the Law and Constitution are whatever they say it is. Litigation is only useful if it doesn't fail at the last hurdle.
That said, the agenda of the Court is not identical to the agenda of DJT and his cronies, so many of his XOs may be overturned. But you may be sure that some of them will be upheld, as they are in concert with the agenda of the Court. Unsurprising, as the two agendas at bottom are the product of instructions from the monied class who owns both.
-- Mal
calimary
(90,021 posts)
But their power is limited to the operation of the executive branch, and most importantly, they can't be used to repeal or amend a federal statute or amend the Constitution.
Look for the loopholes. And make use of them if they work in your favor.
usonian
(25,324 posts)Asking for a friend.
Section 3
No person shall be a Senator or Representative in Congress, or elector of President and Vice-President, or hold any office, civil or military, under the United States, or under any State, who, having previously taken an oath, as a member of Congress, or as an officer of the United States, or as a member of any State legislature, or as an executive or judicial officer of any State, to support the Constitution of the United States, shall have engaged in insurrection or rebellion against the same, or given aid or comfort to the enemies thereof. But Congress may by a vote of two-thirds of each House, remove such disability.

Fix it if you can.
rasputin1952
(83,497 posts)Brainiac can't do precisely what he wants.
There will be a flurry of lawsuits, many of which will prevail, cutting this pig at the knees.
Any resistance to this party of Cultists is a win.
FWIW: Flynn was a traitor, and got off. That alone shows us what this asshole is capable of, but only if we sit on the sidelines.