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Ocelot II

(130,536 posts)
Sun Jan 26, 2025, 05:44 PM Jan 2025

Some things to know about executive orders:

Last edited Sun Jan 26, 2025, 06:31 PM - Edit history (1)

An executive order is a directive by a president relating to the management of executive branch agencies. They have been used by almost every president since (and including) Washington. Lincoln's Emancipation Proclamation was an executive order containing explicit directions to the Army, the Navy, and other executive departments. But their power is limited to the operation of the executive branch, and most importantly, they can't be used to repeal or amend a federal statute or amend the Constitution. They can be and often are challenged in court on claims of constitutionality or executive branch overreach. One of the most famous instances of such challenges was to Truman's EO 10340, which directed the Secretary of Commerce to place all the country's steel mills under federal control. This EO was found invalid in Youngstown Sheet & Tube Co. v. Sawyer, in which SCOTUS held that the president lacked the power to seize private property without express authorization from Congress, and that the EO was an attempt to create law rather than merely direct the operations of the Commerce Department.

Trump's EO directing all federal government agencies to refrain from issuing citizenship documents to anyone born in the US to undocumented immigrant parents is an example of an attempt to legislate by EO, as it is contrary to the plain terms of the Fourteenth Amendment’s Citizenship Clause and Section 1401 of the Immigration and Nationality Act. So far a federal judge in WA has issued a TRO prohibiting its implementation, but it will probably go to SCOTUS eventually.

The point of all this, though, is to try to answer the question of why it appears that nothing is being done about Trump's blizzard of extreme EOs. I think something is being done, but we aren't seeing it yet because that "something" probably consists in preparing litigation - which is the only way to deal with these EOs. Congress couldn't do anything about them even if Democrats had a majority (Trump would veto anything they did). I believe we will see many lawsuits by many different agencies, organizations and individuals but it takes time (and a lot of money) to do this. If we want to see some effective action we can support the organizations like the ACLU that can handle these cases. We can keep at our Democratic representatives, encourage them to speak more loudly, but the real action will come out of litigation. Watch for it and help if you can.

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Some things to know about executive orders: (Original Post) Ocelot II Jan 2025 OP
And like so many things, Republicans previously were VERY opposed to Exec orders RandomNumbers Jan 2025 #1
So were (D) when Trump flurried the US with them in 2017. Igel Jan 2025 #10
"Governing by Executive Order" EllisWhy Jan 2025 #17
K & R malaise Jan 2025 #2
Ah! They're all working hard behind the scenes again! Scrivener7 Jan 2025 #3
No. First, it has been 6 days. Ms. Toad Jan 2025 #4
Gotta give team Felon credit, they have assured full employment of lawyers Attilatheblond Jan 2025 #42
That, they have. Ms. Toad Jan 2025 #55
That's how litigation works. Sorry you aren't getting news bulletins every day. Ocelot II Jan 2025 #5
There you go being all thoughtful and reasonable. TomSlick Jan 2025 #9
And how do you know they're not? paleotn Jan 2025 #11
Deja vu! I've been here before! Scrivener7 Jan 2025 #22
Interesting. You say you've been here before. But you can't offer any constructive alternatives. onenote Jan 2025 #23
And again, same song, different crisis. Scrivener7 Jan 2025 #25
Still repeating yourself. Still empty. onenote Jan 2025 #27
... orangecrush Jan 2025 #6
IOW, our side is preparing to. . . DinahMoeHum Jan 2025 #7
Worth bookmarking for future reference beyond the first days... Thank you. ancianita Jan 2025 #8
This message was self-deleted by its author LiberalArkie Jan 2025 #12
The Orange Hoover thinks that his "mandate" gives him absolute doctorial powers. Liberal In Texas Jan 2025 #13
Coincidentally... TommyT139 Jan 2025 #19
man. They can. twist anything to mean what they want it to mean MadameButterfly Jan 2025 #45
Thank you canetoad Jan 2025 #14
so lawyers will be our soldiers? 4catsmom Jan 2025 #15
And what is your better alternative? onenote Jan 2025 #24
Yes, I think so MadameButterfly Jan 2025 #46
My Donations ConstanceCee Jan 2025 #16
I don't JustAnotherGen Jan 2025 #18
Who's "they"? Ocelot II Jan 2025 #21
Not every Democratic lawyer is Merrick Garland MadameButterfly Jan 2025 #47
Thank you Ocelot, this is good, helpful info FakeNoose Jan 2025 #20
Hopefully our Dem reps will stop giving trump's actions... Think. Again. Jan 2025 #26
That's not going to happen. Rubio got the support of every Democrat. onenote Jan 2025 #28
We should continue shooting at all targets.... Think. Again. Jan 2025 #29
I meant to reply to you MadameButterfly Jan 2025 #49
Thanks for the 'heads up', I saw 48 and replied to you. Think. Again. Jan 2025 #51
They had to vote for Rubio MadameButterfly Jan 2025 #48
If they had all voted "no", would he have got in anyway? Think. Again. Jan 2025 #50
Yes, but their other no votes have more meaning MadameButterfly Jan 2025 #52
I see, but I believe that a strong showing of collective resistance is.... Think. Again. Jan 2025 #53
Unfortunately the way that message is reported is "Trump wins again" onenote Jan 2025 #56
Yes, I agree, I think the Dms should show a stronger resistance to everything the nazis do. Think. Again. Jan 2025 #57
It would have been Trump wins again MadameButterfly Jan 2025 #58
Exactly!, but without the "Dems cave in again" part! Think. Again. Jan 2025 #59
Democrats voting for Marco Rubio MadameButterfly Jan 2025 #60
I disagree... Think. Again. Jan 2025 #61
There is a disctinction and we have to make it MadameButterfly Jan 2025 #62
All nazis. Think. Again. Jan 2025 #63
K&R spanone Jan 2025 #30
I want to see something done about the firing of the IG's. yellow dahlia Jan 2025 #31
Here's a good analysis of the situation: Ocelot II Jan 2025 #32
Thank you for sharing this. yellow dahlia Jan 2025 #33
But the main question is: who's gonna stop trump when he flouts these "constraints". calimary Jan 2025 #41
That's the ultimate question, isn't it? Ocelot II Jan 2025 #44
His is the nastiest bunch of EO I have ever seen Dem4life1234 Jan 2025 #34
It's likely that this onslaught of EOs was intended just as Steve Bannon wanted - Ocelot II Jan 2025 #36
Great points Dem4life1234 Jan 2025 #39
Fuck I forgot about his veto powers! Dem4life1234 Jan 2025 #35
Thx, Ocelot. Thank you for this rational explanation. Hekate Jan 2025 #37
Problem being, of course, that the USSC has its own agenda... malthaussen Jan 2025 #38
Good to remember: calimary Jan 2025 #40
Fourteenthth amendment, shmorteenth amendment. WHERE WAS ANYONE WHEN IT WAS VIOLATED BY TRUMP? usonian Jan 2025 #43
I am in agreement... rasputin1952 Jan 2025 #54

RandomNumbers

(19,156 posts)
1. And like so many things, Republicans previously were VERY opposed to Exec orders
Sun Jan 26, 2025, 05:47 PM
Jan 2025

As in so many things, just imagine the fury that would be unleashed from the right wing, if a Democratic president attempted anything remotely like this scale and impact of executive orders.

But IOKIYAR.

Igel

(37,535 posts)
10. So were (D) when Trump flurried the US with them in 2017.
Sun Jan 26, 2025, 07:27 PM
Jan 2025

Rule of thumb #1: No side likes being snowed by the other side's EO.

Rule of thumb #2: When politics are involved, leave statistics that don't support your interlocutors' side on your computer drive--don't even trust them to the cloud.

EllisWhy

(25 posts)
17. "Governing by Executive Order"
Sun Jan 26, 2025, 08:42 PM
Jan 2025

I'm old enough to recall the GOP using this phrase in attacking Obama. Meanwhile, Trump's already just 23 EO's away from surpassing Obama's 8-year total (currently 276 to 253).

Scrivener7

(59,522 posts)
3. Ah! They're all working hard behind the scenes again!
Sun Jan 26, 2025, 05:53 PM
Jan 2025

Patience grasshoppers! It's not a law and order episode!

Ms. Toad

(38,639 posts)
4. No. First, it has been 6 days.
Sun Jan 26, 2025, 06:01 PM
Jan 2025

Second, Trump signed an avalanche of executive orders covering a wide range of topics. Each of these which overreach the power of the office of the presidency will need to be challenged by individuals harmed, or by groups representing individuals harmed. Only a handful of them were announced in advance.

Some, which were anticipated, had groups and individuals already primed to act immediately (e.g. the birthright citizenship order) - and litigation has already been filed. Others will take some time to identify potential plaintiffs that won't just get tossed out of court for lack of standing. And litigation costs money. Whoever takes up the of attacking these orders will need access to money.

Attilatheblond

(8,878 posts)
42. Gotta give team Felon credit, they have assured full employment of lawyers
Mon Jan 27, 2025, 04:37 PM
Jan 2025

But the costs to society are another matter.

Ms. Toad

(38,639 posts)
55. That, they have.
Mon Jan 27, 2025, 06:49 PM
Jan 2025

Although I suspect there will be quite a bit of pro bono work being done. I'm retired, aside from supporting former students through the character and fitness process. But I'm thinking about where I might be competent to volunteer.

Ocelot II

(130,536 posts)
5. That's how litigation works. Sorry you aren't getting news bulletins every day.
Sun Jan 26, 2025, 06:04 PM
Jan 2025

Support the ACLU, the NAACP Legal Defense Fund, Lambda Legal and the many other organizations that are actually doing something. Pay attention to Democratic states' attorneys general; they've been busy too; 22 of them are involved in litigating the birthright citizenship cases. Some lawsuits can't be brought until the agencies subject to the EOs actually implement them (there has to be an actual case to litigate). But they are happening, sorry if one week isn't soon enough for you. https://www.cbsnews.com/news/trump-executive-actions-birthright-citizenship-doge-courts/ Also, a labor union representing tens of thousands of federal employees in 37 departments and agencies filed a lawsuit Monday challenging Trump’s reinstatement of “Schedule F” and related policies making it easier to fire federal workers for alleged poor performance or insubordination. https://fedscoop.com/federal-worker-legal-challenges-doge-schedule-f/

Scrivener7

(59,522 posts)
22. Deja vu! I've been here before!
Sun Jan 26, 2025, 11:15 PM
Jan 2025

Or is it that we simply never learn from the past? Even when the past was just weeks ago.

onenote

(46,142 posts)
23. Interesting. You say you've been here before. But you can't offer any constructive alternatives.
Mon Jan 27, 2025, 01:08 AM
Jan 2025

Calling your bluff.

DinahMoeHum

(23,607 posts)
7. IOW, our side is preparing to. . .
Sun Jan 26, 2025, 07:20 PM
Jan 2025

. . .throw sand in the gears and sugar in the gasoline. amirite?



Response to Ocelot II (Original post)

Liberal In Texas

(16,270 posts)
13. The Orange Hoover thinks that his "mandate" gives him absolute doctorial powers.
Sun Jan 26, 2025, 08:00 PM
Jan 2025

I worry his toadies on the Sup.Ct. will let him get away with a lot if not all of it.

TommyT139

(2,357 posts)
19. Coincidentally...
Sun Jan 26, 2025, 09:00 PM
Jan 2025

... there's an article on the front page of The Federalist media site -- the group that picks the Supreme Court judge candidates -- which supports the trumpist interpretation of the 14th Amendment. It's their plan to get it through the courts so the door can be closed permanently.

Edited to add: No longer on their front page, but I'm guessing this will be the crib sheet they'll be using.
https://thefederalist.com/2025/01/24/trump-is-right-about-birthright-citizenship/

MadameButterfly

(4,039 posts)
45. man. They can. twist anything to mean what they want it to mean
Mon Jan 27, 2025, 05:39 PM
Jan 2025

So much for constitutional law.

MadameButterfly

(4,039 posts)
46. Yes, I think so
Mon Jan 27, 2025, 05:41 PM
Jan 2025

Given SCOTUS we might not win, but we can play their game of delay make them fight for the next 4 years instead of enacting every crazy EO week 1.

In this case, time is on our side. We have to get to 2 years, then 4.

FakeNoose

(41,634 posts)
20. Thank you Ocelot, this is good, helpful info
Sun Jan 26, 2025, 09:07 PM
Jan 2025

The non-lawyers on DU (like myself) need to be brought up to speed quickly.

 

Think. Again.

(22,456 posts)
26. Hopefully our Dem reps will stop giving trump's actions...
Mon Jan 27, 2025, 09:06 AM
Jan 2025

...a false aura of correctness.

We should be seeing straight "no" votes across the board.

onenote

(46,142 posts)
28. That's not going to happen. Rubio got the support of every Democrat.
Mon Jan 27, 2025, 09:44 AM
Jan 2025

Are we going to continue shooting at our own or should we focus on hittable targets?

 

Think. Again.

(22,456 posts)
29. We should continue shooting at all targets....
Mon Jan 27, 2025, 09:52 AM
Jan 2025

...that are working against our pro-Democratic future success.

MadameButterfly

(4,039 posts)
48. They had to vote for Rubio
Mon Jan 27, 2025, 05:46 PM
Jan 2025

to show the difference between how they respond to qualified candidates vs. wackos.
Besides, they knew this was the best they could possibly get. They needed to jump at it. Even though he's a jerk and doing Trump's bidding. He has no spine but once upon a time he wanted to solve immigration policy. His party wouldn't let him.

Deep down inside he will have some conscience problems with extreme orders and that's the most we hope for at this point.

 

Think. Again.

(22,456 posts)
50. If they had all voted "no", would he have got in anyway?
Mon Jan 27, 2025, 05:50 PM
Jan 2025

...or was there a real risk of a worse choice?

MadameButterfly

(4,039 posts)
52. Yes, but their other no votes have more meaning
Mon Jan 27, 2025, 05:58 PM
Jan 2025

if they are voting on qualifications, not who they like politically. This was not the bridge to die on.
They should vote against everybody else.

 

Think. Again.

(22,456 posts)
53. I see, but I believe that a strong showing of collective resistance is....
Mon Jan 27, 2025, 06:01 PM
Jan 2025

...an extremely important message to be sending out to the public right now.

 

Think. Again.

(22,456 posts)
57. Yes, I agree, I think the Dms should show a stronger resistance to everything the nazis do.
Mon Jan 27, 2025, 09:10 PM
Jan 2025

MadameButterfly

(4,039 posts)
60. Democrats voting for Marco Rubio
Tue Jan 28, 2025, 10:22 AM
Jan 2025

is not caving in. Dems voting for ANY of the other nominees is. Voting for the recent immigration bill is. We need to distinguish between crazy and traditional Republican. Rubio is traditional Republican except for the influence Trump exerts on him. If anything, he's the last adult in the room. We want him there. Because anyone else would be worse.

 

Think. Again.

(22,456 posts)
61. I disagree...
Tue Jan 28, 2025, 10:32 AM
Jan 2025

There isn't any distinction between "crazy or traditional" republicans anymore.

republicans cheering a nazi salute from behind the Presidential podium at the inauguration ended that, if they didn't leave the party at that moment...

They are all nazis.

MadameButterfly

(4,039 posts)
62. There is a disctinction and we have to make it
Tue Jan 28, 2025, 11:05 AM
Jan 2025

I see 3 kinds of Republicans:
1. Traditional Republicans but scared to stand up to Trump
2. Traditional Republicans but willing to collaborate with Trump to gain power and prestige
3. Nazis at heart, obsessed with amassing wealth, and enthusiastic about Trump's cruelty

Don't get me wrong--traditional Republicans are really bad. They have led us to this place. But they haven't historically supported shutting down the NIH, locking up Democrats, and concentration camps.

Everyone Trump is nominating is #3.
Rubio is #1 or #2.

Trump isn't going to appoint a Democrat. #1 or #2 is the best we can hope for. Someone who once wanted sane immigration reform. Someone who in recorded memory wanted to do something good. The rest of them are sociopaths.

For the resistance to triumph, we will need some #1s to come over to our side. Maybe some #2s. People with some measure of conscience who at some point will have a line. The 3s of course are hopeless.

 

Think. Again.

(22,456 posts)
63. All nazis.
Tue Jan 28, 2025, 11:27 AM
Jan 2025

If any of them want to denounce that, they can pick up a Democratic Party registration at their nearest DMV.

yellow dahlia

(5,877 posts)
31. I want to see something done about the firing of the IG's.
Mon Jan 27, 2025, 01:02 PM
Jan 2025

Do we have any idea on who may be taking action?

I plan on writing my representatives...again. I live in a state where my reps are Dems, but I think it is still important to get on the record, so they have the numbers to refer to.

I will try and find out what watchdog legal action groups may be taking action.

Thank you for keeping us well informed.

Ocelot II

(130,536 posts)
32. Here's a good analysis of the situation:
Mon Jan 27, 2025, 01:21 PM
Jan 2025

This writer thinks their removal was probably lawful, and explains why, but goes on to say:

The IG removal issue is not the biggest of deals, since President Trump had clear statutory authority to remove the IGs if he had provided the easy-to-satisfy substantive rationale and thirty days notice. The much more important issue concerns who replaces the removed IGs. On this issue the 2022 IG law has more bite. The law narrows the definition of the “first assistant” who, under the FVRA, presumptively takes over for the removed IG. It also authorizes the president to replace the first assistant only with another Senate-confirmed IG or a GS-15 or higher employee who was in office for more than 90 days during the year prior to the vacancy.

The practical bottom line is that a career official high up in the office of each IG will by law become the acting IG, and Trump can replace that person only with someone already in the IG cadre.

We do not yet know how Trump plans to replace the fired IGs within these constraints. He might nominate new IGs, but they must be confirmed by the Senate, and that likely will not happen this year. The important question is thus whether Trump can find a lawful and congenial replacement for the first assistant under the 2022 law.
https://www.lawfaremedia.org/article/trump-fired-17-inspectors-general-was-it-legal

yellow dahlia

(5,877 posts)
33. Thank you for sharing this.
Mon Jan 27, 2025, 01:45 PM
Jan 2025


I am grateful for the granular legal analysis.

It will help me to formulate my communications to my Senators.

calimary

(90,021 posts)
41. But the main question is: who's gonna stop trump when he flouts these "constraints".
Mon Jan 27, 2025, 04:36 PM
Jan 2025

He reminds me of those movie bandits who said “badges? We don’t need no stinking badges!”

He’s just gonna DO whatever outrage it is, and then see what happens (AND who, if any, might step up to block him).

Ocelot II

(130,536 posts)
44. That's the ultimate question, isn't it?
Mon Jan 27, 2025, 04:59 PM
Jan 2025

Even SCOTUS doesn't have enforcement powers. They can issue an adverse decision, but can they make him obey it? This problem was recognized from the beginning.

Because its orders are not self-executing, the judiciary relies on the consent of other branches in order to assert itself. And popular vigilance is the only way to make those branches cooperate when they're not inclined to. Alexander Hamilton realized this over two hundred years ago when composing Federalist 78: "the judiciary is beyond comparison the weakest of the three departments of power . . . it can never attack with success either of the other two. . . [it] has no influence over either the sword or the purse; no direction either of the strength or of the wealth of the society; and can take no active resolution whatever. It may truly be said to have neither FORCE nor WILL, but merely judgment."
https://www.acslaw.org/?post_type=acsblog&p=1223

When he disagreed with the Supreme Court's decision to let the Cherokee keep their land in the face of intrusion by gold speculators, Andrew Jackson is claimed to have said, "John Marshall has made his decision, let him enforce it." This statement is believed to be apocryphal, and Jackson was never called upon to enforce the decision. No president has simply defied a SCOTUS decision - even Nixon turned over the Watergate tapes when ordered to do so, knowing the result would be his impeachment - but we've never had one quite like Trump.

Dem4life1234

(2,533 posts)
34. His is the nastiest bunch of EO I have ever seen
Mon Jan 27, 2025, 03:27 PM
Jan 2025

None of the previous presidents were convicted felons.

Nasty hateful man.

Looking at Truman's one about steel mills, damn that pales in comparison to this madman's.

Indeed, hopefully lots of lawsuits to clog up the courts. If a Dem president did half the things he did, Congress would be so quick to start impeachment proceedings. He should have never been allowed back into the WH.

Ocelot II

(130,536 posts)
36. It's likely that this onslaught of EOs was intended just as Steve Bannon wanted -
Mon Jan 27, 2025, 03:39 PM
Jan 2025

to "flood the zone," leaving opponents overwhelmed, outraged and unable to coordinate a response - so it's important to step back, take enough time to pick apart what each one means or is intended to do. Some are likely to be merely performative and unlikely to succeed - and they know that. The first intent was the onslaught itself, as well as the difficulty, expense and time involved in responding.

But there's another thing to consider: There will be lawsuits, many of them; and DoJ lawyers representing the agencies involved will have to respond to them (on the taxpayers' dime, unfortunately). Trump is in the process of purging the DoJ of lawyers who worked in the Biden administration and hiring only those who will be loyal to him regardless of other qualifications. This means that DoJ will be full of rookies and inexperienced Trump stooges. They will be confronted with experienced litigators from Democratic state AGs' offices and organizations like the ACLU. These lawsuits will throw quite a lot of sand in the gears, making many of the EOs impossible to implement or enforce.

Fun times...

malthaussen

(18,572 posts)
38. Problem being, of course, that the USSC has its own agenda...
Mon Jan 27, 2025, 04:13 PM
Jan 2025

... and the Law and Constitution are whatever they say it is. Litigation is only useful if it doesn't fail at the last hurdle.

That said, the agenda of the Court is not identical to the agenda of DJT and his cronies, so many of his XOs may be overturned. But you may be sure that some of them will be upheld, as they are in concert with the agenda of the Court. Unsurprising, as the two agendas at bottom are the product of instructions from the monied class who owns both.

-- Mal

calimary

(90,021 posts)
40. Good to remember:
Mon Jan 27, 2025, 04:33 PM
Jan 2025

“…But their power is limited to the operation of the executive branch, and most importantly, they can't be used to repeal or amend a federal statute or amend the Constitution.”

Look for the loopholes. And make use of them if they work in your favor.

usonian

(25,324 posts)
43. Fourteenthth amendment, shmorteenth amendment. WHERE WAS ANYONE WHEN IT WAS VIOLATED BY TRUMP?
Mon Jan 27, 2025, 04:58 PM
Jan 2025

Asking for a friend.

Section 3

No person shall be a Senator or Representative in Congress, or elector of President and Vice-President, or hold any office, civil or military, under the United States, or under any State, who, having previously taken an oath, as a member of Congress, or as an officer of the United States, or as a member of any State legislature, or as an executive or judicial officer of any State, to support the Constitution of the United States, shall have engaged in insurrection or rebellion against the same, or given aid or comfort to the enemies thereof. But Congress may by a vote of two-thirds of each House, remove such disability.



Fix it if you can.

rasputin1952

(83,497 posts)
54. I am in agreement...
Mon Jan 27, 2025, 06:13 PM
Jan 2025

Brainiac can't do precisely what he wants.

There will be a flurry of lawsuits, many of which will prevail, cutting this pig at the knees.

Any resistance to this party of Cultists is a win.

FWIW: Flynn was a traitor, and got off. That alone shows us what this asshole is capable of, but only if we sit on the sidelines.

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