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[a geek named Bob]

1. Thank you. n/t

[Skinner]

2. He's responsible. But he couldn't have killed so many without the guns. (nt)

[JTFrog]

3. Thank you. n/t

[Yavapai]

58. Skinner, that is true.

With the absence of guns, we would be reading about bombings, venues with exits blocked and firebombed, and various other means of mass killings.

I think these are suicides with an exclamation point. In the killer's mind they have been wronged by society and they want to exact as much revenge as possible.

Please see this link for an example: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bath_School_disaster

I wish there was an answer that could be found to stop these horrible crimes.

I also wish that was the objective now, instead of all the finger pointing we are seeing today.

If wish you and the rest of DU, happy holidays and New Year.

[Flabbergasted]

68. Just like us happening in Europe where they have tighter gun control...

Oh wait, never mind.

[Yavapai]

74. How about the middle East?

How about China where for at least two years, people with knives have been attacking each other?

How about 9/11

Etc.

[Flabbergasted]

92. Our topic is gun control. You said that if it weren't guns it would be

be bombs. I stated that in other WESTERN countries this is not the case. You proceeded to compare it to the ME which is nothing like the west in terms of violence and culture and oppression and china which is likewise apples vs oranges.

We are discussing how guns are regulated in the west not the east.

And no they are not the same.

[arthritisR_US]

80. Great example, you're equating some guy pissed

off with his taxes to that of a 20 year old sick puppy. Have you been taking talking points from Scalia, you know the ones into the reduction of the absurd?

[laundry_queen]

91. What an utter steaming load

you do understand that the ingredients for bombs are red flagged and investigated if sold in large enough quantities to create a bomb? This notion of a mass of people without access to firearms will somehow ALL be smart enough to amass large amounts of bomb ingredients without authorities noticing, and be smart enough to build the darn bomb from scratch and carry out the whole thing on their own is fantasy crap made up by the gun lobby as a threat. "If you take away our guns we'll just build bombs!"
No...you won't.

[NashvilleLefty]

70. EXACTLY! nt

[corneliamcgillicutty]

4. Thank you, thank you, thank you.:

[Gregorian]

5. And I claim he isn't the only one responsible. But blaming parenting seems to be taboo.

We better look a lot closer if we want to create a better world.

[John2]

24. I certainly agree with you

and I'm fired up now. Quit spinning this Police garbage. If the person was poor or a minority, then people would be spinning this the other way and including the police. So quit trying to make this like everybodyelse is pure in this tragedy. So, I hear Mrs Lanza had a police officer taught her about guns? Lets not have double standards here because of your wealth. I'm also hearing one of that kid's friend, saying he was sociable and never got into any trouble. If, this kid had so many mental issues, where are the physicians, that treated him since all these people claim he did? We need to know the truth and not spin, trying to protect people's reputation.

[FarCenter]

57. Her brother is a retired police captain in Kingston, NH.

Rockingham County Sheriff Michael Downing said Lanza's brother James Champion, a retired police captain in Kingston, N.H., and other relatives express their "heartfelt sorrow."

Read more: http://www.wcvb.com/news/local/Lanza-s-New-Hampshire-relatives-express-heartfelt-sorrow/-/9848876/17792936/-/i5f0ydz/-/index.html

[sufrommich]

6. Ridiculous NRA talking point # 574. nt

[apocalypsehow]

23. +1. n/t.

[Squinch]

42. +2. Next will be the spoons.

[Flabbergasted]

7. No one has a political agenda. We don't want out kids shot by your macho toys. Nt

[Dr Hobbitstein]

25. My guitars?

Or my videos games?

Seriously, I'm a parent of a 7 year old girl. I don't own a gun. Never have owned a gun. Most likely never will. Also, I'm a registered Democrat, served in the USAF, never been registered with the NRA (nor have I had interest). You can call me what you like, but I know the truth.

The rhetoric here has been disgusting, and everyone is scapegoating everyone and everything else. QUIT. That's all I ask. Civility.

[Flabbergasted]

35. I doubt you'd be calling for civility if your daughter had been at sandy hook. What age were they?

[Dr Hobbitstein]

51. Actually, I hope I would be..

If I were in their shoes, reading the garbage on this site surrounding 2A stuff (which, by the way has TWO sides riled up right now, and I'm talking to BOTH), I'd feel like my loss was being exploited for emotional agendas.

[Flabbergasted]

62. You wouldn't be. Nt

[galileoreloaded]

59. I hope the people making decisions DID NOT have kids at Sandy Hook.

Emotions cloud judgement. Really?

[Control-Z]

49. And I'm sure the entire community

will oblige.

[onehandle]

8. Yawn. Nice try. nt

[MNBrewer]

9. It is absolutely a 2nd amendment and political issue

He didn't just pop into being out of nothingness. He had easy access to these murder weapons (which is what they are, guns are nothing but murder weapons) because of the insane politics of guns in this country.

[ProSense]

10. "Quit exploiting a tragedy for your personal agendas!"

How about you quit spewing NRA talking points?

You deliberately ignore the shitload of guns owned by the mother of the "sick and fucked up individual."

[blueknight]

11. BULLSHIT

the 2nd amendment needs to be gutted! PERIOD! this is not even up for debate anymore

[MrMickeysMom]

53. Really?

Gutting?

[Cobalt Violet]

12. Guns!

He used them! He killed innocent women and children with them. We won't stop even if you don 't get it.

[senseandsensibility]

13. Please, "STOP" telling everyone what to do.

This is a message board. Sorry you don't agree with everything being posted.

[letemrot]

14. Look at the responses to a plea for sanity

Yawn, nice try.. "Your macho toys" etc. blaming the individual that actually committed the act is now a NRA talking point? Wow. I've learned that name calling and insults are unacceptable at DU. Unless, of course you're insulting gun owners.

[ProSense]

21. WTF?

"Look at the responses to a plea for sanity"

You consider "sanity" to continue apologizing for the NRA and the cowards who support them: http://www.democraticunderground.com/10021998887

"I've learned that name calling and insults are unacceptable at DU. Unless, of course you're insulting gun owners."

Poor victimized gun owners. Why the hell are people always trying to ask them to be reasonable in the face of escalating gun violence? We sorry!

Ridiculous.

[letemrot]

71. Thanks for making the point.

You did it far more eloquently than I could have.

[ProSense]

87. "You did it far more eloquently than I could have."

Thanks. My point made sense. Yours, not so much.

[letemrot]

90. Thanks again

You have a great night.

[Flabbergasted]

22. Sorry I missed the plea for sanity in that op?

You mean just accepting that occasionally people with your toys are going to kill classrooms full of kids. That's sanity to you?

I am sick of our kids getting killed because of this and you should be to.

[letemrot]

76. My toys?

I have guns and not a single gun that I own has ever been used to kill a child.. Or anyone for that matter.

[Flabbergasted]

82. Neither were Ms Lanza's until Friday. Nt

[letemrot]

85. Well then blame Her son for the shooting

And her for the inadequate storage. What does that have to do with me and my guns?

[Dr Hobbitstein]

37. Thank you (and I'm not a gun owner)... (N/T)

[sellitman]

73. Lots of Pro NRA people here with less than 100 posts this week

Enjoy your time here.

[letemrot]

78. I've been registered for 2 years

So thank you, I have enjoyed it.

[intaglio]

15. Sorry, but the time to talk about guns is NOW

Mourn, certainly, but do not deny the fact that military style weaponry with military style ammunition played a part in this sickening crime. Stopping that discussion merely plays into the hands of those who want to maintain the status quo.

[jillan]

16. And if this sick and fucked up individual did not have access to guns, this would not have happened.

[SammyWinstonJack]

61. +1000!

[alcibiades_mystery]

17. Bullshit...it's an access to firearms issue, and I will not stop attacking gun culture from this day

forward.

You're position is what's reprehensible and morally repugnant.

This isn't a personal agenda. It's a public fucking health crisis with little children being murdered now.

Enough of YOUR reprehensible bullshit.

[NYC Liberal]

18. BS. It wouldn't have happened without the fucking guns

and without him having access to them. So it most certainly IS a gun issue.

[Pretzel_Warrior]

19. You are wrong and misguided. I'm here to restrict the number

Of guns in America. We need to punish fun dealers, gun manufacturers, negligent gun owners to the max.

I'm tired of the bullshit that this isn't about guns.

Because yes it fucking is.

[NWHarkness]

20. Of course it's a political issue.

When you have so much violence in our society, clearly, something must be done about it. And how do we, as a society, work through a problem that involves our legal system, our educational system, and our mental health system?

Politics, obviously.

To pretend otherwise is to shrug off the deaths of the victims with a "shit happens" attitude. I, for one, refuse to accept that there is nothing we can do to stop this from happening again.

[neverforget]

26. He could've stolen his mom's car to kill but instead used the guns as they were designed to

do. Very relevant to the conversation.

[Flabbergasted]

63. No it's not. If 31 kids had committed mass murder with cars over the last 13 years

Then it would be relevant. We would be looking for ways to solve that problem.

[frazzled]

27. Oh yes, it IS about the guns.

Stop justifying a tragedy for your own personal pro-gun agenda.

We're mad as hell, and we're not going to take it anymore.

[John2]

47. And there

is rumor, she had a relative that was a cop! The color of a badge don't intimidate ! Is that's what's going on here! The double standard and intimidation routine behind the color of a badge? If it was somebody that was poor and a minority, would you be acting the same way? I'm hearing about all these goodie two shoes and not demonizing people, but lets hear the Truth! Something went wrong raising that kid in a wealthy family.

[undeterred]

28. After 35 posts you've been here long enough to form an opinion about the "state of DU"?

Wow, just wow.

[nc4bo]

40. +1000.

Sounds more like someone is in denial.

I'm also just a little afraid that the true nutters are really starting to feel threatened and that makes them extra dangerous.

But, NOW is the not only the time to talk about this but to actually work on solutions.

[Dr Hobbitstein]

43. I used to post here years ago...

Under a similar name. I've since lost the login I used for it (I was in college when I used to post here). I got a new S/N when DU3 kicked in. I've been around here since 2002 or 2003. Bush was still in office, Andy was still alive, and there was a Top 10 Conservative Idiots every week. So yes, I have been here long enough to form an opinion about the state of DU. Also, if you look through my posts and see my introductory post, you'd know this information.

[undeterred]

54. Well you could just say your user name then and maybe I would recognize it.

I don't expect people to read all my thousands of previous posts and neither should you. This messageboard evolves like a living thing.

[Dr Hobbitstein]

29. As I expected...

Even a call for civility gets trashed as being an NRA talking point.

For the record: I don't own a gun. I've never owned a gun. I'm a parent of a 7 year old. This issue hits me as a parent, you all are sick for exploiting it for YOUR agenda. Regardless if that agenda is "TAKE AWAY THE GUNS" or "WE NEED MORE GUNS", it's being exploited. If you consider me a troll or an NRA apologist for this, then so be it.

[ProSense]

33. Some Are Turning In Their Guns Following Connecticut Shooting

Some Are Turning In Their Guns Following Connecticut Shooting
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022002850


"I don't own a gun. I've never owned a gun."

Yet you felt the need to frame your OP as one dismissing guns as a factor, one trying to shift focus from a discusson of the 2nd Amendment.

[alcibiades_mystery]

38. Personal agendas?

Try public health crisis. When we voice our positions on a public health crisis, it is not a personal agenda. What would you have us do? Sit back and say, Oh how sad. I better not involve anything having to do with this actual incident other than sitting about and being sad.

Fuck that. This is part of a public health crisis. You can sit home and roll down your shades and ignore the world if that's your "personal" preference (you're not even consistent on that, since you name a putative cause in the OP!). But some of us prefer - indeed, feel a moral and ethical imperative - to address the epidemic that's killing our families and children.

You don't like it?

Too fucking bad for you.

[Squinch]

50. A call for civility coupled with an admonishment to stop talking about gun control does get trashed

as an NRA talking point, yes.

[Dr Hobbitstein]

66. Jesus fucking Christ!

There are TWO sides to the 2A debate. BOTH OF THEM are getting out of control right now. Civility. Every time I see a civil reaction, I see a bunch of people derail them as an NRA troll, or a gun nut, or both. If you can't see it, you're blind.

[Squinch]

75. Jesus fucking christ. How civil of you.

And yes. I see. Those who don't agree with you or talk about things after you have told them not to, in a way that you don't like, are blind.

Glad we cleared that up.

[catnhatnh]

60. Did you read your own post???

We are "exploiting" this to KEEP OTHER ASSHOLES FROM KILLING MULTIPLE PEOPLE. If you find that an exploitative "agenda" you most certainly do not belong on this board.

[MNBrewer]

67. You're not calling for civility

You're explicitly calling for a particular type of response, namely that the 2nd amendment and the politics associated with it not be included in the discussion. That is not a call for civility.

You know what? I call for a civility on the part of gun owners. That they lock them up securely when not in use, throw away 99.90% of their ammo and keep only a few rounds on hand, and melt down those weapons they don't want or use any more.

Then maybe we can live in a country where gun civility is a reality.

[XRubicon]

72. I thought you were an NRA appologist at first, but now

I see you are just dumb.

So in your world we just say, "well nothing we can do, the guy was disturbed, everyone go about your business..."

Do you think locking cockpit doors after 9/11 was an agenda?

Restricting automatic weapons is not an agenda, it is common sense.

[sellitman]

79. Agenda?

Yes, my agenda is to stop this kind of tragedy from ever happening again. The way to do that is to change the gun laws.

yes, i have an agenda.

Your pro NRA agenda is very transparent.

[backscatter712]

30. Oh gimme a fucking break! n/t

[Squinch]

55. +1

[ananda]

31. No! Hell no! I won't stop..

.. because the culture of oppression, violence, and bullying is the very thing that leads to massacres like this and so many others. Part of that culture includes the belief among many that they need guns, particularly arsenals and assault weapons. Without those fucking guns, Adam Lanza might have done some harm, but not nearly as much. With better parenting and mental health treatment, he might have done no harm.

[Spider Jerusalem]

32. It's part of a larger pattern.

It IS a Second Amendment issue, and it IS a political issue. Twelve thousand homicides by firearm, per year, in the US. And multiple occurrences per year of mass shooting incidents using legal firearms. Clearly, there is a problem. Clearly, it is something which should be discussed. Anyone who says "this is not the time to talk about this" is an idiot. If this isn't the time to talk about it...when is? Never, apparently.

[XRubicon]

34. No!

It wasn't the 767's fault for crashing into the world trade center, easy access to the cockpit and weapons on the plane alowed the attack to happen.

We needed new rules for airlines then and we need new rules for guns now.

[Autumn]

36. It's not so much a personal agenda as the need to discuss

gun control and regulations. This shooter had access to assault weapons and used them on children. We need stricter gun laws.

[elehhhhna]

39. wtf are you to tell us what the issues are not?

wow.

start your own site. Call it I'M THE BOSS !!1! underground

[KittyWampus]

41. No, you stop please. This is indicative of a societal problem & is happening world wide.

[Jamastiene]

44. Also, NOT all mentally ill people.

Not all mentally ill people are violent. They should make that distinction when they lay this at our doorstep. Not all of us are violent. I don't appreciate being put into the same category as someone who just killed all those innocent children.

[John2]

69. Well,

we know the kid had problems, but do we really know this with a physician seeing the kid? He had access to the finest medical care? You are telling me a kid lived twenty years of his life within a family that made millions and never had a physical exam in his entire life? Now that is a revelation to me? Why do we have to guess at this? Didn't they make enough to have a family physician?

[Trajan]

45. Fuck you ...

Leave if you dont like how thousands of people have the right to say what ever the fuck they want ....

NOBODY has locked the gate ... You CAN get out ....

[font size=1]NOTE: I expect this will get deleted .... However, I would not be surprised if it isn't ....

[etherealtruth]

46. I am thankful many have exploited tragedies to make great strides for the overall good!

... as a way to attempt to dismiss action in the face of tragedy ... here are some tragedies that were not allowed to go to waste (there are many, many more)

Remembering the Triangle Shirtwaist Fire, 100 Years Later

"Friday, March 25 marks the 100 year anniversary of the Triangle Shirtwaist factory fire, New York’s landmark industrial disaster that killed 146 of the factory's 500 employees, most of them young immigrant women and girls of Italian and European Jewish descent. The tragedy sparked a nationwide debate about workers rights, representation and safety."

...

"Three months after the fire, Governor John A. Dix signed a law creating the Factory Investigating Commission. Following the findings of the commission, the New York State Legislature enacted 36 statutes to regulate workplace fire safety and ventilation, and to set minimum standards for working women and children."


http://www.wnyc.org/articles/wnyc-news/2011/mar/21/100-years-later-remembering-triangle-shirtwaist-factory-fire/

The Austin Flood

"Just outside the quaint town of Austin sits a vivid reminder of one of Pennsylvania’s worst disasters – the Austin Flood. In 1909, the dam was constructed on Freeman Run to power the Bayless Papermill downstream. Many wondered if the dam was safe. On September 30, 1911, Austin found out. Poor construction, coupled with torrential rain, resulted in the dam’s collapse. Nearly 400 million gallons of water were released, destroying everything for 8 miles. At least 78 people perished in the tragedy. It was the second worst flood disaster in Pennsylvania’s history and sixth worst dam failure in U.S. history. The tragedy sparked new legislation to improve dam safety, and the Austin Dam was placed on the National Register of Historic Places in 1987. "

http://www.pottercountypa.org/listings/index.cfm?action=displayListing&listingID=484&catID=1&startrange=All&endrange=All&substart=M&subend=S¬ify=12

[Terra Alta]

48. Of course I'm blaming the murderer

but one can't ignore the tools he used in committing his crime. Take away the guns, and 26 innocents would be alive today.

[John2]

77. Freedom of

public information is hard isn't it? Is that in the Constitution?

[arthritisR_US]

52. You are welcome to your perspective and of

course to voice it as are others who would disagree with it. You telling others how they should treat this situation is like me telling someone how they should grieve....that's some hubris

[galileoreloaded]

56. Bravo!

[Lint Head]

64. It is a 2nd Amendment issue because the massive perpetuation of guns is based on a corrupt

interpretation of it. The gun manufacturing lobby has made billions for their bosses. You're right. This is personal and it's damn time to do something about this whatever that something may be. I have raised three children. They know how to shoot and they also know why the 2nd Amendment exists because they studied civics and American history in schools that weren't bastardized by right wing bigots. As long as evangelical writers like David Barton, who wrote a book on Thomas Jefferson, conveniently gloss the over the founding father's slave ownership and ignore inconvenient facts such as they did not want a standing army so they wrote the 2nd Amendment to make sure they could rely on the common citizen to fight. We have now have nuclear weapons, drones, tanks and a standing military so that idea is antiquated. They 2nd Amendment means we have the right to kill the meat for our tables and personal protection not the overthrow of an elected official that someone doesn't happen to agree with.

[Botany]

65. be careful of swimming in de Nile

It is long past time for Americans to stop denying that the proliferation of guns in America
do not cause a proliferation of gun tragedies.

The more guns that are out in a particular society = the more guns deaths that happen in that particular society

[ileus]

81. 100% spot on.

[_ed_]

83. Good Job with the NRA Talking Points

I'll talk about whatever I want to to prevent another mass shooting like this.

[Joe the Revelator]

86. Exactly.....if not now, when?

after the next mass killing?

[_ed_]

89. There's one every few days now,

so I guess we can't ever talk about guns.

[Joe the Revelator]

84. This OP is so full of shit....so amazingly full of shit, this is certainly a 2A issue....

and to say otherwise is to ignore reality. This is the time to confront this, and trying to save lives is not exploitative. Would you rather we wait until the NEXT mass killing?? Stop hiding your head in the sand.

[Stuart G]

88. Do you know about Charles Whitman????

His story is not about guns ....you know...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Whitman

It ain't new, it is 40 years old...so ...guns aint the issue..sure..
It ain't political....lies...sure it is political
What is the word political mean????..........having to do with the government ...that is what it means...

So it is political..and guns are too available here...why?
Laws make it so.......so that is political, whether you like it or not...