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EarlG

(22,891 posts)
Mon Feb 17, 2025, 02:25 PM Feb 2025

It's good to see protests, but I wonder if the pro-democracy, anti-billionaire framing is right for this moment

I'm glad to see people out there organizing peaceful protests. It's imperative that we can show a groundswell of public dissatisfaction with Trump's policies.

However, I wonder if we're using the right framing. There's certainly nothing wrong with protesting in favor of democracy or against billionaires. The problem I see with this framing though is that a lot of people actually seem to like billionaires. And clearly a lot of people voted on purpose for the shitstorm we're now seeing. In fact, we just ran an entire pro-democracy campaign which was defeated at the polls.

So while I believe that Elon Musk's presence in government is indeed a political weak point in the Trump administration which can be exploited, and while I believe that OBVIOUSLY being pro-democracy is the way to go, maybe we shouldn't be framing these as pro-democracy protests in opposition to billionaire oligarchs. We already ran that campaign and lost. Because after all, America is the land of opportunity, and the myth of the American dream is that anyone who works hard enough can become Elon Musk. We know that is not true, of course, but the myth persists.

So while Musk is running roughshod over the federal government, perhaps we should be EXPLICITLY framing these protests as "pro-Constitution." Because while it's not too difficult to argue against anti-billionaire protests (see: "Why are you so jealous of rich people?") it is much harder -- if not impossible -- to argue against the Constitution. Because the Constitution IS America, and without it, there is no America. And you can't have an American dream without an America.

People who serve this country, all the way up to the president, swear oaths to the Constitution. Now, Trump and Musk are moving to undermine people's belief that the Constitution is a valid document. So I say, well then just come right out and say that. If you don't believe in the Constitution -- if you don't believe in co-equal branches of government, checks and balances, and the rule of law -- then just come right out and say it. Stop using weasel words and say it to our faces.

For decades Republicans all across this land have managed to get people to believe that they -- not Democrats -- are the true guardians of the Constitution. Their actions are now wildly disproving that claim, and they are giving us a massive political opportunity.

We are now the defenders of the Constitution -- against enemies foreign and domestic -- and we should be inviting Republicans to join our peaceful pro-Constitution protests, and stand up for the Constitution. If and when they decline to join, press them on it. Do you still believe that the Constitution is valid? Why won't you stand up and defend the Constitution? If they are office holders, ask them if they disagree with their own oaths of office.

Imagine a massive pro-Constitution march on Washington. It wouldn't have to be overtly politically partisan. It wouldn't even have to mention Trump. The purpose would be to show that hundreds of thousands of people from all across the country are willing to march in support of the nation's founding document. And if you want to attempt to argue against and/or demean that, then please proceed I guess.

If we demonstrate clear support for the Constitution, then it throws a much bigger spotlight onto the clearly anti-Constitutional and un-American actions of Musk and Trump. Bringing the Constitution to the forefront would remind people that without the nation's founding framework, this isn't America any more. It's just a nation of lawlessness and chaos.

47 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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It's good to see protests, but I wonder if the pro-democracy, anti-billionaire framing is right for this moment (Original Post) EarlG Feb 2025 OP
Good point n/t Lulu KC Feb 2025 #1
Just oligarchs works for me, there is no set dollar amount Uncle Joe Feb 2025 #2
People are against Musk because of what he is doing, not because he is rich. dalton99a Feb 2025 #3
And that number is growing exponentially PortTack Feb 2025 #20
+1. He's hurting tens of thousands of federal workers and their families basically for shits and giggles dalton99a Feb 2025 #28
The total lack of understanding of how govt works is also stunning. yellow dahlia Feb 2025 #40
+1. He knows to use government for free money and regulatory protection against competition to great effect. dalton99a Feb 2025 #43
Exactly. yellow dahlia Feb 2025 #44
Well put DFW Feb 2025 #4
My sign says 'Musk is a Bond Villain' alittlelark Feb 2025 #5
The Horatio Alger myth orangecrush Feb 2025 #6
personally, i'd like to see a focus on the moral bankruptcy of the ruling elite. start w epstein's list. mopinko Feb 2025 #7
as a Party, we'll be wandering in the wilderness until we reclaim the Populist label from the GOP. WarGamer Feb 2025 #8
Russell Voght came out and said it. Qutzupalotl Feb 2025 #9
Doing what the billionaires wanted is how we are in this mess. Blue Full Moon Feb 2025 #10
Yes. The idea that Americans consider the wealthy members of the hated "Them" in the populist Us vs Them betsuni Feb 2025 #11
I think people are getting angrier at the billionaires by the day. Irish_Dem Feb 2025 #12
+1 leftstreet Feb 2025 #13
as well they should. The disparity is obscene. They just keep cleaning the trough and hoard it. Few exceptions. Evolve Dammit Feb 2025 #24
I agree. The GOP tax scheme budget bronxiteforever Feb 2025 #25
I have always thought one of the obstacles has been that some people think yellow dahlia Feb 2025 #39
Yes, probably multiple factors Irish_Dem Feb 2025 #41
I'm more inclined to let those folks define what they're protesting for bigtree Feb 2025 #14
There are many, many entities organizing different groups around different messages right now. Pushing for WhiskeyGrinder Feb 2025 #15
We should definitely be pushing the anti-constitutional behavior of Elon Musk and DOGE. GoodRaisin Feb 2025 #16
like schoolhouse rock said... eShirl Feb 2025 #17
I would also like the continual referring to him as a FELON to end. Abolishinist Feb 2025 #18
President Musk & the First Felon. CrispyQ Feb 2025 #32
Democratic billionaires and other pro democracy billionaires Meowmee Feb 2025 #19
The ruling class has no interest in opposing the ruling class. Voltaire2 Feb 2025 #30
Yes, they do Meowmee Feb 2025 #45
Good idea! Wild blueberry Feb 2025 #21
Agreed. highplainsdem Feb 2025 #22
IMHO, we must do both. Passages Feb 2025 #23
Diverse signage demanding equity for all would be inclusive of everyone's concerns. Harker Feb 2025 #26
Pro-Constitution, Anti-Monarchy Pinback Feb 2025 #27
Left populism is the answer to right populism. nt. Voltaire2 Feb 2025 #29
When another Luigi can't take any more, aocommunalpunch Feb 2025 #31
It's a very valid OP. bucolic_frolic Feb 2025 #33
good points one and all et tu Feb 2025 #34
"the Constitution IS America, and without it, there is no America" says it NoSheep Feb 2025 #35
"Why won't you stand up and defend the Constitution?" Yes, THIS is the framing. Beartracks Feb 2025 #36
Let's start countering the myth of bootstrap billionaires. And tie them to slavery. Clouds Passing Feb 2025 #37
Thank you! yellow dahlia Feb 2025 #38
Very good post misanthrope Feb 2025 #42
Does that mean that eating the fuckers is out of the question? Getting caught up Autumn Feb 18 #46
Or... kentuck Feb 18 #47

Uncle Joe

(61,685 posts)
2. Just oligarchs works for me, there is no set dollar amount
Mon Feb 17, 2025, 02:30 PM
Feb 2025

We can tie that to oligarchs in Russia.

The Roosevelts were wealthy but they weren't oligarchs.

Thanks for the thread EarlG

dalton99a

(88,583 posts)
28. +1. He's hurting tens of thousands of federal workers and their families basically for shits and giggles
Mon Feb 17, 2025, 05:10 PM
Feb 2025

yellow dahlia

(2,398 posts)
40. The total lack of understanding of how govt works is also stunning.
Mon Feb 17, 2025, 06:52 PM
Feb 2025

And yes - it is all entertainment and a game to him. Life is not a video game, and neither is government.

dalton99a

(88,583 posts)
43. +1. He knows to use government for free money and regulatory protection against competition to great effect.
Mon Feb 17, 2025, 08:20 PM
Feb 2025

His personal wealth was made possible by taxpayer subsidies, tax breaks and government contracts.

As far as he is concerned, the purpose of government is to serve Elon Musk and nobody else


DFW

(57,991 posts)
4. Well put
Mon Feb 17, 2025, 02:35 PM
Feb 2025

Generic hate of successful people can be framed by the other side as pure jealousy, and not the disdain for people who abuse power and trash the Constitution. Obviously, many people who do that have immense great wealth, but not all who have immense wealth act with the same degree of evil. It will ultimately be the Constitution and its defenders who set things right, not the IRS.

alittlelark

(18,987 posts)
5. My sign says 'Musk is a Bond Villain'
Mon Feb 17, 2025, 02:40 PM
Feb 2025

I’m looking to sow division. Out the door now….

orangecrush

(24,639 posts)
6. The Horatio Alger myth
Mon Feb 17, 2025, 02:46 PM
Feb 2025

I'm not worried

Once the real pain sets in, and people start dropping dead like flies, unemployment skyrockets along with prices, they will realize the oligarchs are not their pals.

mopinko

(72,516 posts)
7. personally, i'd like to see a focus on the moral bankruptcy of the ruling elite. start w epstein's list.
Mon Feb 17, 2025, 02:49 PM
Feb 2025

it’d b 1 thing, the way that stuff is talked about in whispers, if at all, if it werent somehow such a potent wedge w the base.
the plain and simple fact of the matter is that pedos mainly come in 3 flavors- conservatives, cops and clergy. there’s a lonnnng list of accused and convicted sex criminals from tsf1.
not to mention that the asshole himself TESTIFIED IN COURT to gang raping to 13 yo’s w jeffy to escape prosecution.
how did this not sink this whole charade?

i believe it’s because ppl dont like to look evil in the eye, so they turn away and cling to any shred of doubt they can find. then they move on to the next thing.
we shd b unflinching and steadfast and refuse to shut up about it.

WarGamer

(17,104 posts)
8. as a Party, we'll be wandering in the wilderness until we reclaim the Populist label from the GOP.
Mon Feb 17, 2025, 02:49 PM
Feb 2025

Qutzupalotl

(15,350 posts)
9. Russell Voght came out and said it.
Mon Feb 17, 2025, 02:49 PM
Feb 2025

He thinks we are in a post-Constitutional era. That should have been enough to sink his nomination to OMB director, but here we are.

We live in a sound byte era, and an educational message is unlikely to resonate. Perhaps some remember what the Constitution is supposed to mean, and those people might hear it. But those who slept through Civics are looking for a quick fix that the system can't support, and so are suspicious of the system, including the Constitution.

betsuni

(27,896 posts)
11. Yes. The idea that Americans consider the wealthy members of the hated "Them" in the populist Us vs Them
Mon Feb 17, 2025, 02:55 PM
Feb 2025

isn't true (for Republican voters billionaires are firmly in the Us category), or that Americans are very class conscious.

Not at all. This is part of the American character.

Evolve Dammit

(20,607 posts)
24. as well they should. The disparity is obscene. They just keep cleaning the trough and hoard it. Few exceptions.
Mon Feb 17, 2025, 05:01 PM
Feb 2025

bronxiteforever

(10,430 posts)
25. I agree. The GOP tax scheme budget
Mon Feb 17, 2025, 05:03 PM
Feb 2025

will be built for the richest. I don’t think that is going to go down well at all.

yellow dahlia

(2,398 posts)
39. I have always thought one of the obstacles has been that some people think
Mon Feb 17, 2025, 06:48 PM
Feb 2025

they might someday be part of the billionaire class (1%).

It gives them a sense of allegiance to the RepugliCON party. How that allegiance translates to "no matter what" is a mystery I am trying to unravel. Perhaps confirmation bias and brainwashing are part of the equation.

Irish_Dem

(69,665 posts)
41. Yes, probably multiple factors
Mon Feb 17, 2025, 06:54 PM
Feb 2025

Confirmation bias, propaganda, gaslighting, also hatred of people who are not rich.

bigtree

(91,779 posts)
14. I'm more inclined to let those folks define what they're protesting for
Mon Feb 17, 2025, 03:29 PM
Feb 2025

...we're essentially seeing federal workers and their communities showing up at these rallies.

That should increase in the weeks ahead as they grow more desperate about their jobs and futures. It's their independent voices which define those protests.

A decentralized movement like this is going to produce the broadest political outreach, essentially encouraging disparate groups to coalesce behind resistance to what affects them, which is a nebulous wave of actions by this administration against essentially blue collar workers.

We all saw Trump line up a deep bench of rich republicans to stand behind him at his inauguration. Then he invited these people who have reaped the lion's share of our tax dollars for their already fat bank accounts, injecting those same wealthy moguls into our government to strip working class Americans jobs away from them.



I can't think of a more jarring rallying point than the gold-plated Trump reaching into struggling families homes to take food out of their children's mouths.

The Constitution is a document. It's not self-actualizing. We need to speak to each other about what our needs are and how our federal government is going to address those.

Trump's entire strategy is to tell Americans that their states are responsible for things our Federal government has been responsive to for decades and decades, like flood relief that Trump is insisting is a state concern, or hurricane relief which he's saying Georgians should expect no help from their president.

We have potential epidemics on the horizon and he's shutting down our disease control and info centers; historically dangerous weather affecting millions around the nation and he's looking to close the National Weather Service...

We need to speak to where people are struggling, and to where their anxieties are growing about a nation that at least pretended in the part to care about the struggles where they live, not just in words someone can distort and manipulate in their interest.

We don't need rhetorical fights with an idiot. We need to speak to where Americans are right now, That will give us our messaging.

WhiskeyGrinder

(24,843 posts)
15. There are many, many entities organizing different groups around different messages right now. Pushing for
Mon Feb 17, 2025, 03:31 PM
Feb 2025

uniformity right now rather than more action is simply going to diminish the efforts people are just starting to make.

GoodRaisin

(10,178 posts)
16. We should definitely be pushing the anti-constitutional behavior of Elon Musk and DOGE.
Mon Feb 17, 2025, 03:56 PM
Feb 2025

Further, we should be pushing that Musk and DOGE in itself is nothing but a fraud on the American people because no transparency is being offered by Trump/Musk about the so called savings being reported. They can say anything and it will be reported on Fox News but there is no actual proof they have offered that they are doing a damn thing except breaking into government agencies to steal data. Meanwhile, the Republicans are preparing to raise the debt another 2 trillion with an unpaid for tax cut that will only benefit the rich on the backs of working people. I think we have enough to frame around what is happening now that we can talk about those rather than framing a broader argument. Pressure the DOGE process for the bullshit it appears to be and the unconstitutionality of the way it has been rolled out.

Abolishinist

(2,521 posts)
18. I would also like the continual referring to him as a FELON to end.
Mon Feb 17, 2025, 04:09 PM
Feb 2025

An estimated 24 million people in the United States have been convicted of felony offenses. fRump joined them last year when he was found guilty of falsifying business records to hide a hush money payment and influence a presidential election. Since then, politicians and media alike have described him as a “felon” and “convicted criminal.”

Yet his experience of the criminal legal system is clearly an outlier. In the immediate wake of his conviction, his campaign, the Republican National Committee, and an allied fundraising group raised tens of millions of dollars and he continues to have wide support.

Others with past felony convictions, on the other hand, don’t have this kind of power. While fRump sells shirts adorned with his mug shot, many legally innocent people are sitting in jail before they even go to trial because they can’t afford bail. The criminal legal system is hardly just in its treatment of most people—particularly people of color—and far too often extracts guilty pleas even from the innocent. Many prisons are violent, traumatizing places that leave people worse off than they were when they entered. Even long after release, people with prior convictions face stigma, isolation, and difficulty obtaining jobs and housing. Dehumanizing language facilitates their further systemic inhumane treatment, continuing to punish them long after they have served their time.

https://www.vera.org/news/why-we-shouldnt-call-trump-a-criminal

CrispyQ

(39,644 posts)
32. President Musk & the First Felon.
Mon Feb 17, 2025, 05:20 PM
Feb 2025

Someone coined that a few weeks ago & it's perfection!

Meowmee

(9,163 posts)
19. Democratic billionaires and other pro democracy billionaires
Mon Feb 17, 2025, 04:35 PM
Feb 2025

Need to step up to the plate. They should be attacking especially elunatic as well as os They should be out there demonstrating too.

Wild blueberry

(7,654 posts)
21. Good idea!
Mon Feb 17, 2025, 04:52 PM
Feb 2025

Opens the frame to include our whole country. Thank you for your thoughtful post.

Passages

(2,759 posts)
23. IMHO, we must do both.
Mon Feb 17, 2025, 04:56 PM
Feb 2025

What we are for, our Constitution, and how we fight to preserve it includes money out of politics.

None of this would be happening if not for Citizens United. That decision is written with such complete contempt of our Constitution, we must champion it again, with specific legislation.

Oligarchs are a real and present danger.

Harker

(16,233 posts)
26. Diverse signage demanding equity for all would be inclusive of everyone's concerns.
Mon Feb 17, 2025, 05:08 PM
Feb 2025

There's a lot to protest against.

No to uniformity.
No to inequity.
No to exclusion.

Pinback

(13,213 posts)
27. Pro-Constitution, Anti-Monarchy
Mon Feb 17, 2025, 05:09 PM
Feb 2025

This country got its start by shaking free of monarchical rule.

Agreed, not all billionaires are bad. Pritzker, Soros, and Cuban are examples of billionaires who don’t want autocracy.

aocommunalpunch

(4,461 posts)
31. When another Luigi can't take any more,
Mon Feb 17, 2025, 05:18 PM
Feb 2025

The billionaires will take notice. What’s it like to live in fear, you ghouls?

bucolic_frolic

(50,324 posts)
33. It's a very valid OP.
Mon Feb 17, 2025, 05:20 PM
Feb 2025

We needed to run on economic inequality, hard to do when an incumbent. And we needed to demonize Trump's personality. We did in the debate, and then dropped it. If we'd had a second debate we might have carried the election, because VP Harris really took him apart face to face. I think she was viewed as more strident than cerebral. She needed pin stripes not heels. Ugh. THAT ought to get me banned. But we needed to aim at the absolute political middle, small town civic club middle.

et tu

(2,191 posts)
34. good points one and all
Mon Feb 17, 2025, 05:24 PM
Feb 2025

but while this discussion goes on
so does the government wrecking ball.
courts must support the constitution
and rule in favor of democracy.

Beartracks

(13,882 posts)
36. "Why won't you stand up and defend the Constitution?" Yes, THIS is the framing.
Mon Feb 17, 2025, 05:41 PM
Feb 2025

We should see and hear it everywhere. Like an actually patriotic and substantive version of the rightwinger's moronic "Why won't you wear a flag pin? Don't you support the flag?"



======================

yellow dahlia

(2,398 posts)
38. Thank you!
Mon Feb 17, 2025, 06:36 PM
Feb 2025

I have been saying the same thing to members of Congress, when I have been writing to them over the course of the last four weeks.

I have been asking them to stand up for - Article 1, Separation of Powers, the Constitution, the Appropriations Clause. I have suggested they shouldn't shy away from a little civics lesson, included in the message of why this is all SO wrong.

I contend the Repugs in Congress are violating their oath to the Constitution, in giving The Grifter in Chief and his Destroyer in Chief (Musk) free "reign". They didn't provide their responsibility of Advice and Consent during the hearings - their part was performative and capitulation.

I like your idea of a protest centered on the Constitution. Absolutely - "without the nation's founding framework, this isn't America any more. It's just a nation of lawlessness and chaos."

Autumn

(47,809 posts)
46. Does that mean that eating the fuckers is out of the question? Getting caught up
Tue Feb 18, 2025, 07:17 PM
Feb 18

because I've been in the hospital. With healthcare that is the envy of the world? Might go broke from this envious plan though.

kentuck

(113,791 posts)
47. Or...
Tue Feb 18, 2025, 07:40 PM
Feb 18

...get the American people to file a class-action lawsuit against Elon Musk. Try to get 100 million people, more than the votes that Trump received last election. Sue him for 50% of his wealth - about $200 billion dollars.

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