Ukraine doesn't need us, probably better off without us

[HereForTheParty]

If I were Z I'd never look back. Trump just wants $$$, isn't taking security seriously, and is anxious to give away Ukrainian territory. Europe is stepping up and is a reliable ally - even willing to send troops. Z has won the war of public opinion in the free world.

We're more an albatross than anything.

[Wingus Dingus]

1. I think they understand that even if it would be much tougher without our

support, we betrayed them in a terrible way and it's not worth seeking our help again. It breaks my heart.

[Self Esteem]

2. Unfortunately, they probably do need the US.

And losing US support is certainly not good.

Because the US is so big and as wealthy as it is, they've been able to send over the most aid financially by far.

Between January, 2022 and October, 2023, the US sent $44 billion in military aid to Ukraine.

The second most was sent by Germany: $17 billion, or $27 billion less than the US.

In fact, all of Europe combined throughout that span sent $4 billion less than the US.

There's absolutely no chance Europe can make up that difference heading forward. Ukraine will continue to fight on but it absolutely has gotten harder to see an equitable outcome from Ukraine. Eventually, that financial gap will widen and make it even more difficult for the country to keep fighting.

The US turning against Ukraine is devastating to their survival.

[HereForTheParty]

3. "There's absolutely no chance Europe can make up that difference heading forward."

Isn't their collective economy about the size of ours? Under Biden, we seemed to be able to step up support as needed. You don't think they could up the ante?

I agree our turning against them is devastating, but under Trump we're a net negative, imo.

[Self Esteem]

4. I don't think they could collectively make up that gap.

Especially as it relates to military equipment.

They will try but I think losing the US as a partner is going to have a devastating impact on this fight for Ukraine.

[uponit7771]

16. They NO DOUBT can take up that gap Ukr took Kursk with 20% NATO equipment use outside...

... the vehicles to express that very notion that Russia is weak right now militarily.

[DetroitLegalBeagle]

30. And they have now been partially pushed back

And have been losing ground elsewhere. Ukraine is facing a manpower shortage. Some units have high desertion rates and men have been fleeing the country since the start of conscription. Late last year the Pentagon estimated they have enough manpower to last another 6-12 months. They will need to lower the draft age to get more troops, but then they face a bigger issue. Estimates I have seen that the Ukrainians are facing 20k-25k casualties per month. Russia 45-50k per month. Yet Russia has 4x the population. If putin decides to continue this, either the Ukrainians need to massively increase their kill ratio, or they are going to chew through their youngest generation and cause issues for themselves in the future when the war is over. That loss rate is not sustainable long term for Ukraine, especially if they start to throw their youngest into the meat grinder.

[uponit7771]

33. Check your sources, there are a crap ton of Russian talking points in your

... reply.

The biggest is "losing" ground as if that's not part of Ukraine attrition strategy.

They continue to make their land into huge kill zones as they give up land for Ru bodies and equipment.

But the Russians keep using losing land as a metric for loss when it hasn't been for years for Ukraine.

Russians are running out of armored vehicles and arty while Ukraine is not and land doesn't fight as long as Ukraine causes too many Russian casualties / equipment loss per acre they win ... eventually

It'll take generations for Russia to take over half of Ukraine at this rate ... slowest since wwI

[dwayneb]

26. Not right now - but remember the war machines that were created in WWII?

UK and France and other European allies will begin to pour money into their military industrial complex. And 5 years from now they could be neck and neck with the USA. Just look at what Germany did in WWII.

In the meantime - UK and France have nukes and stand ready to deliver them in case Putin really decides to move Westward.

[Bev54]

10. It is not so much the money but the ability

To provide the equipment needed. Europe does not have the capacity to manufacture right away. They will need time to put infrastructure in place. They will try to keep the US on side for now but like Canada, in the long run will need US less and less. The effects may be felt long after Trump is dead because we have all learned that the US is no longer a country that keeps its agreements because if an idiot like Trump can be elected not just once but twice, after Dubya, it has shown the world just how fickle the voters are.

[BannonsLiver]

5. Europe doesn't need to have the biggest economy in the world to accomplish their goals.

Last edited Sun Mar 2, 2025, 08:46 PM - Edit history (1)

[Self Esteem]

20. If their goal is defeat Russia, they surely do lol

Ukraine losing American support would mean they lose half - if not more - of their financial support. Europe will have to DOUBLE the amount of aid just to make up for the $40+ billion lost by the US stopping its support. It's just foolish to claim Ukraine doesn't need the US.

Yeah, they do. And that's why electing Trump essentially wrote the death sentence for Ukraine's continued fight against Russia.

Here is a good view on the situation:

https://www.csis.org/analysis/ukraine-now-doomed

The bottom line: Prospects for Ukraine are bleak. In the best case, U.S. and European aid continues, which is enough for Ukraine to stabilize the front lines, blunt Russian attacks, and buy time for a negotiated settlement, perhaps with Russia more willing to make a deal as its casualties pass the 1 million mark.

In the worst case, the United States cuts off shipments of equipment. What Ukraine receives from the Europeans, other global sources, and its own industry will keep its forces in the field but with declining capabilities. Russian attacks will gain more and more territory; at some point, Ukrainian lines will break. Ukraine will have to accept an unfavorable, even draconian peace.

[enid602]

7. Russia

Russia is as good as bankrupt. This entire episode has shown how weak they are. What would Russia do if China attacked Siberia and Eastern Russia? I wonder if Russia has spent as much maintaining their nukes as they have modernizing their armed forces.

[uponit7771]

9. Russia is now using donkeys on the front lines and being pushed back ...

... on two fronts piecemeal.

Ukr needs cluster monitions and F16 parts if the French Mirages are their in time the rest Europe can but6 from us equipment like HIMARS.

Ukr will be slowed tactically but that's pushing it, NATO has enough on the ready to help right now and Biden admin pushed as many weapons to them as they could.

Tough without us but we're text book no way irreplaceable

[Self Esteem]

19. It's going to be extremely tough.

Unless Europe doubles the amount it's already spent, they will be unable to match the total lost from the US not sending military aid anymore.

[uponit7771]

21. It's not the money it's the equipment... US sent old to be trashed equipment and paid ourselves to restock. It wasn't 35

... 350 like MAGA has been saying it was a 3rd of that and a 3rd of that number going to direct aid.

[Wiz Imp]

13. It sounds like you're repeating Trump's propaganda which is 100% false.

Trump is constantly saying the US gave far more than we've actually given and it was more than Europe as a whole. That is completely false.

Europe collectively have provided more aid than the US has.

.webp

[Strelnikov_]

14. Thanks

That’s what I seemed to remember.

If Europe decides to ramp up support in proportion to the threat to the continent, it should be more than enough to wear down Orange Julius’s Russia.

[Self Esteem]

18. Europe will essentially have to double its total to match what the US was doing - which is just one country.

That's not going to happen.

[Mountainguy]

25. Also a big chuck of

What Europe is giving, equipment-wise, is being replenished by US supply to them.

They move older stuff into Ukraine and the US sends newer to replace it.

Even if that's not free, they still need the supply to keep up their support.

US support is a requirement for European security. The thing Republicans seem to have forgotten is that European security IS US security.

[Self Esteem]

17. Your source literally proves my source.

The only difference is the years are more updated. The US basically gives the same amount as all of Europe. That's literally what I said here:

In fact, all of Europe combined throughout that span sent $4 billion less than the US.

So, how are they going to make up that other 43%?

Or, using my link, the $44 billion the US has already provided?

Here's a good read on the matter:

https://www.csis.org/analysis/ukraine-now-doomed

The bottom line: Prospects for Ukraine are bleak. In the best case, U.S. and European aid continues, which is enough for Ukraine to stabilize the front lines, blunt Russian attacks, and buy time for a negotiated settlement, perhaps with Russia more willing to make a deal as its casualties pass the 1 million mark.

In the worst case, the United States cuts off shipments of equipment. What Ukraine receives from the Europeans, other global sources, and its own industry will keep its forces in the field but with declining capabilities. Russian attacks will gain more and more territory; at some point, Ukrainian lines will break. Ukraine will have to accept an unfavorable, even draconian peace.

[Wiz Imp]

24. I'll never know why you think that showing facts that completely contradict what you

post somehow proves you correct, but hey, since you think you know more than anyone else on this, there is no point in trying to argue with you.

I'll continue to back Ukraine no matter what, and NOT give credence to Trump's propaganda. At this point, Ukraine will better off without the US and especially Trump.

[DetroitLegalBeagle]

31. Money is the smaller problem. Actual production of war materials is the bigger one

Europe could make up the financial shortfall. They cannot make up the production shortfall, at least in the short term. Europe does not have vast stores of ammunition and equipment, nor do they have the factories to produce it at the rates that we can. That can change, but its something that will take years. And Ukraine does not have years.

[berkerly6240]

6. Europe does not have the munitions and other equipment to do this..

unfortunately they need the US right now. It will take years and a much larger allocation of resources to military spending to get close to being able to defend themselves. They would need to likely cut other social programs etc to get this done.

[BlueTsunami2018]

8. The only thing is, no one manufactures as much ammunition as we do.

They just don’t manufacture enough weapons and ammo in Europe to supply a conventional war on a meaningful level for a prolonged length of time. We do, everyone buys most of their shit from us. They fly our planes, they roll our tanks, they use our missiles, they shoot our bullets.

If piss wig decided to cut everyone off, there could be a serious military crisis for the rest of the free world.

[bigtree]

11. it was never about just them for the US

...it's about rolling back Russian expansionism at the doorstep of the European allies who make up the bulwark of that defense against Putin, one of our key national security threats.

This has been the view of successive presidents, Democratic and republican, since the Cold War.

[lame54]

12. Trump is Putin's missile

[GoodRaisin]

15. I know this much.

If I was Zelenskyy I would not want Donald Krasnov as my negotiator and would not ask for his help to this effect again. Any further involvement with the U.S., if any, I would send an emissary to the meeting. His way forward will come from and through those who have Ukraine’s interests at heart, and that is clearly not Krasnov (or Vance). A head of state coming here to be humiliated by a horse’s ass should be a lesson learned and never repeated.

[Sparkly]

22. I'm no expert, but I think we have specific weapons

that are especially useful for the kinds of combat they're facing, as well as dollars.

They've been incredibly clever with what they have, outsmarting and tricking the Russians on several occasions; and their civilians have incredible courage and fight in them! In the beginning, grandmas were willing to take up arms and stand outside their homes defending them. But that only goes so far.

(Whatever J.D. was saying about Zelensky having difficulty finding troops was awful. From what I've read, it's RUSSIA that is having to hire and pay soldiers from other countries to fight for them!)

What would it take for Putin to "attack" us here? He already has! Drumpf is not protecting the Constitution, and his courts and congress look the other way. No need to protect us from a bomb, when Putin doesn't need one!

I wish the Ukrainian people could sit the Republican voters down and explain things to them.

[Initech]

23. Fox News took this away from us.

And the spoiled little children they call "hosts" are absolutely giddy about it. Fuck Fox to the hottest of hells.

[brush]

27. They're better off without the trump/musk admin fiasco. That's for sure. Previous admins, no.

Ukraine is in considerably worst shape/security since the clown car admin took over.

[dwayneb]

28. Remember - UK and France have nukes

Even if we pull our nukes from our European storage sites in Germany, Italy and Turkey, UK and France still have the ability to deliver a nuke into Russia if Putin decides to move Westward.

As much as nukes pose a threat to end civilization, they do provide a deterrence to thugs like Putin and Trump.

[Irish_Dem]

29. The US has aligned with Ukraine's mortal enemy, Russia.

The US is now quite dangerous to Ukraine.

[Torchlight]

32. I think Ukraine can withstand America's surrender monkey act.

Between 2021 and 2024, EU member states’ total defense expenditure rose by more than 30%, and a lion's share of that went directly or indirectly to Ukraine. I think Europe’s unity behind Ukraine sends a clear message: the cost for Putin will only continue to rise.

With unwavering support and strategic cooperation, I believe Europe will ensure that Putin's war becomes unsustainable. In the end, he will have no choice but to withdraw, as the price of his invasion far outweighs any perceived gain.