Post removed

[mwmisses4289]

1. Context, please?

[edhopper]

2. Going out on a limb here

but pretty sure it is about trans rights.

[LAS14]

8. I think it's an idea worth discussing in the abstract. It lies behind...

...our rejection of stereotyping in general. How do we draw the line between supporting a group and stereotyping a group? Remember when we couldn't say a Black politician was articulate? We'd be accused of assuming that was unusual. I THINK that day has passed. Not sure, though.

[ForgedCrank]

23. It won't

matter how well intentioned you are, it will lead to claims of bias and accusations with no boundaries.
It's best to simply not acknowledge that topic here, and I find that unfortunate.

[CoopersDad]

3. Bill Ayers said, each person is an expert in their own existence...

...and that the people with the problems are the people with the solutions.

So, I am not trans, I read and listen and don't opine much about the struggle but I do support all people in every way that I can.

Jumping into discussion is a little like talking about someone in the room as if they aren't in the room.

They are in the fucking room.

[LAS14]

9. See my reply above (#8). nt

[CoopersDad]

12. I agree with your premise, appreciate the topic.

I think followers of this post and contributors to others need to be mindful of tone and respectful of how it might sound to be talked about-- not to stay silent.

Silence isn't recommended, just careful thoughtfulness.

[Torchlight]

4. Is this in reference to the 1967 Loving v. VA supremne court decision?

[LAS14]

10. Sorry, I don't know that decision, but it could easily apply. See my reply #8. nt

[Hekate]

27. Mr & Mrs Loving sued for the right to be married, because under old miscegenation laws they could not

She was Black and he was white.

Miscegenation laws were surprisingly widespread. When I was working in Affirmative Action, a friend only a few years older than me said when she was born her parents had not been allowed to be married because her mother was Irish American and her father was Filipino. In California.

[demmiblue]

5. I don't think you are being as clever as you think you are.

Just sayin'.

[LAS14]

11. It's frustrating when people insist on attributing nefarious motives...

... to people when they have no way of getting in their heads. See reply #8.

[RoeVWade]

6. Two things can be right. The issue is difficult to win on, and it is about complexity. What's wrong with that?

If complexity is an issue, I might as well give up. "Cause I see it in a lot of things. Though there are some things I can give a straight up call.

[hlthe2b]

7. Ignoring any specific issue, there is an entire area of neuroscience dedicated to exploring complex verus

more dichotomous/reductive patterns of thinking in humans. It is real and fascinating.

Google the subject generally or on the PubMed/NIH or other medical science search engine.


I am definitely on the "complexity" side of the scale--sometimes to my detriment. That said, I think we all are quite capable of dichotomous thinking when we are angry, whether our typical thinking pattern or not.

[RoeVWade]

13. Yes thanks. The particular issue can be broken down into several categories.

-is it about who uses what bathroom
-is it about who plays against who in sports
-is about winning athlete scholarships
- is about figuring out sports records
- is it about physical players hurting each other.
-is it about whether or not to use gender related drugs in youth and when
-Is it about surgery
-is it about free medical care for prisoners
- is it about some religious or moral concept of man or woman
-is it about what parents can decide with the doctors and kid
-Is it about government controlling
-is it about freedom

In general, I say if we are going to tell everyone to live by reality only, that's quite a stretch. A lot of people live by a whole lot of different beliefs that not everyone embraces. If the crazy cat lady is doing fine, leave her alone. Or the guy worshipping the forest spirt. I don't have to endorse it, believe in it, or even like what someone doing.

I look for real harm. Which doesn't include my eyesight being offended. I don't consider this one an easy question, but I endorse the same approach. Try to let people live the way they want as much as possible, and try to evaluate if there is real harm somewhere.

Also, I don't think the Constitution says we have to force people to be either a man or a woman.

[LAS14]

14. Well stated! nt

[RoeVWade]

16. Thanks, appreciate it.

nt*

[WhiskeyGrinder]

15. If someone can acknowledge complexity without acknowledging bigots have a point, I'd love to see it, because simply

acknowledging complexity is admiring the problem without working toward a solution, which invites bigots to fill the vacuum.

[LAS14]

17. Did you mean "admitting" instead of "admiring?" nt

[WhiskeyGrinder]

19. No

[leftstreet]

18. Well, both terms work

I think our esteemed politicians truly admire the power of social issues

[LAS14]

20. I don't know how one can work toward a solution without acknowleging whatever complexity there is. nt

[Ms. Toad]

21. It's not complex.

Trans women are women. Full stop. Trans men are men. Full stop.

Just like minorities are human. Full stop.

Any attempt to advocate to restrict the rights of trans individuals isn't permitted on DU.

From EarlG:

Trans men are men. Trans women are women.

If you're confused about any of the following:

Trans people can get pregnant?!?
But what about biology?!?
How does the whole genitals thing work?!?
Isn't this bathroom thing complicated?!?
What about sports?!?
Uh... chromosomes?!?
In my day it was he and she, what's with all these pronouns?!?
Maybe Dave Chappelle had a point...?!?

...then please go somewhere else on the Internet to work through your confusion, and come back when you're ready to support your fellow trans DUers. DU is not the place to "just ask questions" or "have the right to your opinion" about how you, non-trans person, feel about the existence of trans people, or how their existence should be defined.

https://www.democraticunderground.com/100215969127

https://www.democraticunderground.com/101312142

[LAS14]

22. Well, since replying to you would probably get me alerted, leading...

... to a ban if I got alerted too many times, I guess I can't reply.

[Hekate]

32. That is about as clear as it can possibly be

[Luciferous]

35. Thank you for posting this. As the parent

of a trans child I find some of the posts here disturbing. It's not complex, they deserve to be treated just like everyone else.

[WhiskeyGrinder]

25. The complexity is introduced by bigots to give them cover. None of these issues are difficult to wrestle with.

By getting hung up on "acknowledging complexity," you've already ceded the field to bigots.

[LAS14]

24. Unfortunately, you're describing our dilemma pretty accurately. It's really, really...

...hard to bring complexity into the discussion (of any issue) without seeming to endorse the other side. I was hoping some smart DU people would have some ideas about this.

[TommyT139]

28. It is hard -- but it's optional. 🏳️‍⚧️

You choose to cast out vague statements, with no context?

Of course, there is context, because you've done this before.

It takes courage for those of us who happen to be trans to live our lives. When you're ready to ante up with a bit of your own, go find some people to talk with in person. You'll find that having an embodied conversation -- about how people are embodied -- goes a lot further to understanding us than sitting behind a keyboard.

[Cirsium]

34. Complexity?

What complexity?

[yardwork]

26. I don't think it is bigoted to state that Hamas attacked Israel.

I don't think it is bigoted to state that the current Israeli government doesn't reflect the opinions or values of many Israeli citizens, let alone Jewish people.

I do think it is bigoted to throw red paint on the doors of Jewish people's homes and businesses because of what the Israeli government is doing.

I think it is bigoted to attack Muslim people because of what Hamas is doing.

Unfortunately, a lot of American voters decided to embrace the perfect being the enemy of the good. They "couldn't bring themselves" to vote for Kamala Harris so here we are.

[BootOutTheGoons]

29. Here. Let me help make this less complex for you

LEAVE TRANS PEOPLE ALONE!!!!!!!!!

[Maru Kitteh]

30. I think that it's most important that we are not afraid to discuss without scolding

There are so many people out there who have never really had a reason to consider the life of a trans person, even though they have likely exsisted alongside trans people in their communities most, or all of their lives. All of the sudden, maga came along and told people, you should be worried about this, Being the creatures they are, maga went looking for the most atypical and nonsensical examples of individuals and issues they could find and built a seriously clear message that said BE AFRAID. They made people believe that somehow this was a new issue, that trans people were somehow “new.”

We need to discuss and we need to educate, and we need to do it without falling so easily into accusations and name-calling.

[Hekate]

31. I feel like I've just been invited to another donnybrook

Just sayin’

[LostOne4Ever]

33. What is the complexity?

That some people don’t accept trans identities and use junk science to justify exclusion and bigotry?



Yeah not complex at all.

[Jim__]

36. I agree.