Symptoms of Antisocial Personality Disorder (Sociopath)

[Irish_Dem]

The Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, 5th edition (DSM-5) defines antisocial personality disorder (ASPD) as a pattern of disregard for the rights of others.

To be diagnosed, a person must meet at least three of the following criteria:

1. Failure to conform to social norms: Repeatedly breaking the law, such as by committing acts that could lead to arrest

2. Deceitfulness: Repeatedly lying, using aliases, or conning others for personal gain

3. Impulsivity: Acting without thinking ahead or planning

4. Irritability and aggressiveness: Repeatedly getting into fights or physically assaulting others

5. Reckless disregard for safety: Disregarding the safety of self or others

6. Irresponsibility: Repeatedly failing to work consistently or pay bills

7. Lack of remorse: Being indifferent to or rationalizing having hurt, mistreated, or stolen from another person

[pat_k]

1. He absolutely meets the criteria for multiple diagnoses

From August 2017
https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1014&pid=1846040

DT is mentally ill. He meets the criteria for Antisocial and Narcissistic Personality Disorders. And based on public conduct, I have no doubt that an evaluation would put him way up on the Psychopathy Checklist.

Lying and "distorting reality" are hallmarks. He breaks every rule in the book in pursuit of his own ends. He lies and distorts reality to rationalize and justify his wrongful conduct. To puff up his over-inflated ego he stereotypes and denigrates those he sees as out-groups. His callous disregard for others and sense of entitlement appear to know no bounds. He weaves grandiose tales of his fearsome power, omnipotence, and unequaled brilliance. He is proudly abrasive and offensive. He clearly enjoys humiliating and embarrassing others, but reacts to any perceived slight to his own person, appearance, or accomplishments aggressively and vindictively.

I'm sure there have been U.S. presidential candidates, and presidents, who could be diagnosed with a personality disorder of some sort, but I can't think any of who exhibited this level of psychopathy. I can't think of any who met as many diagnostic criteria for Antisocial Personality Disorder, or who met as many criteria for Narcissistic Personality Disorder.

Regarding Personality Disorders in general

There are four defining features of personality disorders. These are:

1) Distorted thinking patterns,
2) Problematic emotional responses,
3) Over- or under-regulated impulse control, and
4) Interpersonal difficulties.

I think it is pretty clear that DT exhibits these defining features.

Antisocial Personality Disorder DSM-5 301.7 (F60.2)

{Lengthy discussion that proceeds diagnostic criteria omitted}

There are four diagnostic criterion, of which Criterion A has seven sub-features
.
A. Disregard for and violation of others rights since age 15, as indicated by three of the seven sub features:

1. Failure to obey laws and norms by engaging in behavior which results in criminal arrest, or would warrant criminal arrest
2. Lying, deception, and manipulation, for profit tor self-amusement,
3. Impulsive behavior
4. Irritability and aggression, assaults others, or engages in fighting
5. Blatantly disregards safety of self and others,
6. A pattern of irresponsibility and
7. Lack of remorse for actions (American Psychiatric Association, 2013)

The other diagnostic Criterion are:
B. The person is at least age 18,
C. Conduct disorder was present by history before age 15
D. and the antisocial behavior does not occur in the context of schizophrenia or bipolar disorder

(American Psychiatric Association, 2013)

DT meets A. He shows "Disregard for and violation of the rights of others." He exhibits at least four of the seven "sub-features."
Specifically 1 (sexual assault clearly warrants arrest), 2, 3, and 7 (I don't think there would be any argument on these three). Arguably he exhibits some of the remaining features. For example, he probably meets 3. He is clearly "irritable and aggressive," but I don't know of any reports of physical assaults in adulthood.

He only needs three of the sub-features to meet the criteria for A "Disregard for and violation of the rights of others"

He is certainly over 18, and from descriptions of him as a kid in [link:http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/frontline/film/the-choice-2016/transcript/"Frontline: The Choice 2016]" he exhibited the same characteristics (plus physical aggression) from a young age.

Narcissistic Personality Disorder DSM-5 301.81 (F60.81)

The definition of NPD states that it is comprised of a persistent manner of grandiosity, a continuous desire for admiration, along with a lack of empathy. It starts by early adulthood and occurs in a range of situations, as signified by the existence of any 5 of the next 9 standards (American Psychiatric Association, 2013):
-- A grandiose logic of self-importance
-- A fixation with fantasies of infinite success, control, brilliance, beauty, or idyllic love
-- A credence that he or she is extraordinary and exceptional and can only be understood by, or should connect with, other extraordinary or important people or institutions
-- A desire for unwarranted admiration
-- sense of entitlement
-- Interpersonally oppressive behavior
-- No form of empathy
-- Resentment of others or a conviction that others are resentful of him or her
-- A display of egotistical and conceited behaviors or attitudes

On this one I'd say he's nine for nine (and only needs five for diagnosis).

The "Psychopathy Checklist" is highly correlated with the criteria for Antisocial Personality Disorder and Narcissistic Personality Disorder. Scoring is based on a structured interview, but, given the degree to which DT meets the criteria for Antisocial Personality Disorder and Narcissistic Personality Disorder, I have no doubt that DT's psychopathy score is very high.

[Irish_Dem]

3. Thank you for additional information.

Yes he meets all the adult criteria and also was a child conduct disorder.

The mental health community has been warning about Trump and how dangerous he is for many years now.

I keep trying to educate people about the reality here on DU, but quite a few people insist
that Trump is a only a stupid, harmless buffoon.

The reality is that while Trump is not an educated person, he has street smarts and animal cunning. And has manipulated, lied and cheated his way to the most powerful position in the world. With the ability now to achieve his goal of becoming the world's first trillionaire with all kinds of criminal theft.

He will kill as many people as it take to get what he wants. Total power and immense wealth.
And will align with fascist dictators and destroy the US as well.

This is certainly not someone who is a harmless stupid buffoon.

I may post the Hare psychopathy list and see what people think.

The thing about diagnosis, is that we don't really need a clinical evaluation.
We have something better, years of Trump's recorded behavior. Which is better
than a interview where the psychopath will just lie their way through the interview.

[3catwoman3]

8. "...we don't really need a clinical evaluation."

I completely agree. There is more than ample evidence, in the hours, and hours, and nauseating HOURS of audio and video footage of him, to verify beyond any doubt that he is one sick SOB.

I don't even think you need to be a psychologist or psychiatrist to diagnose him.

[Irish_Dem]

11. People have a hard time with the point we are making.

I will preface my comments with my bona fides.

I have earned four degrees, two in political science, two in the mental health field.
PhD from a large well known public research university.
Specialty area: the intellectual and personality assessment of adults and children.
Dissertation in that area as well.

Forensic experience early in my career, interviewing and evaluating various jailed
and probation offenders. Many years conducting evaluations for courts, employers, schools, etc.

In addition to my political science degrees, I have been a political junkie since JFK ran against Nixon, so have a strong baseline on political behavior.

To the point you are making, yes. There is a strong prohibition about armchair psychology and diagnosis. For a good reason in many cases.

That said the clinical interview is just an artificial shortcut. And not a satisfactory one in the case of the personally disorders who may not make an honest presentation. We have some very sound subjective tests but those cannot always be give us the information we need to make a good dx.

What would be best is to follow a patient around and see how they interact with their environment, their family, friends, employers, etc. And to get extensive reports from those people.

Luckily with Trump we have years of valid historical reports from childhood. His disturbance in the areas of relationships, his criminal behavior etc. We have seen some of it with our own eyes.
Videos of stolen classified documents, his part in the treasonous insurrection, his court trials with witness testimony. We also have many many first hand reports of his behavior while in the White House the first time by his aides, staff, etc.

Yes diagnosing Trump is not rocket science. That is why I am simply posting the diagnostic criteria and people can come to their own conclusions.

[yellow dahlia]

26. And more for me to weigh in on...of course.

I am not a licensed clinician. But I get that the practice and skill for observation is a big part of the ability to "understand" others.

I have many anecdotes of my antennae going up, and then being correct (unfortunately). I won't share details here, but even after brief observation, I once pegged someone who worked with children as "creeping me out"...the others present diminished my concerns. Several months later, he was arrested.

I frequently say: I am not licensed to diagnose....but.

[Irish_Dem]

31. Yes some people have a natural ability in terms of observational skills.

They don't have the clinical training to put it into context, but they do a good job.
And you did some good work on forensic research in college.

Interesting, but police officers will sometimes at a crime scene or interviewing
witnesses will get a strange feeling that something is very off.
Or that they feel creepy. Like you are reporting.

They are not sure why, but we can see that their brain is picking up something
that has not yet formed into conscious thought. Just a feeling initially.

[yellow dahlia]

33. I think there is an instinct that gets honed over time.

[Irish_Dem]

45. Yes and some people may need that skill set.

[yellow dahlia]

19. I saw the OP w/ the Hare list first, and then found this post.

One of the things that is difficult for people to understand, is that he can be both stupid and clever at the time.

It is an ingrained instinct for them, and happens without thought. Some of it is reptilian. As you said - animal cunning.

One of my musings is - what is the cause? My thought is - just the right combination of nature and nurture. (As is the case w/ one of my fascinations - serial killers such as Bundy, Gacy, and the like.) Thank you for feeding one of my hobbies.

The grifter is the convergence of so many different diagnoses - it is a "perfect storm". And we are in the path, as are so many in the world.

[Irish_Dem]

20. Oh don't get me started on serial killers and cold case investigations.

A hobby of mine too.

You will like this story YD. When I was working on my PhD, one of the other PhD students
was fixated on serial killers. His dissertation was on this subject and in every class he told stories or asked questions related to the serial killers. He had personally met or corresponded with every living serial killer. None of the females students would sit near this guy but I admit
after a couple of years of this stuff I got a bit interested. I now also work online on cold cases and DNA investigations.

Yes people do not understand the assessment of human intelligence is quite complex and there are many types of intelligence. In a formal IQ testing there are many subtests as we measure many types of verbal and nonverbal IQ. There is no perfect brain. I myself am quite smart in a few areas and totally clueless in other areas.

Yes. Trump is not an educated nor intellectually curious person. He is mentally ill and only interested in topics that feed his narcissism and sociopathy. But he has an animal cunning, a street smarts. It is patently absurd to say that a man who has become the most powerful man in the world and will be the richest one soon is stupid.

[yellow dahlia]

24. Oh boy! I'm tapped in even more now.

I wrote a 60 page paper about sexual sadist serial killers (many many many years ago). I read everything there was to read at the time.

I delved deep into the nature/nurture thing of various serial killers in history. I saw some patterns. Many of the patterns were triggered at certain ages of development.

Interestingly the paper was my "term paper/project". We picked our own topic. Out final exam consisted of one question each, tailored specifically to the content of our "paper". The professor wanted to know that we not only researched our topic, but were able to extrapolate from, and analyze, and discuss it. He asked me (something along the lines of) - so given the data you gathered, is there any way we can observe children to hope to avoid or prevent the direction they are going? My answer (basically) was - we should not do so, because our conclusions might determine or effect the outcome, and that could be dangerous.

The development and end result is dependent on so many variables. And the observation of people requires the ability to see many variables at once. Our world today is geared toward binary and easy answers. Many don't want to analyze things that way. And hence, they sometimes find us tedious. (Speaking for myself, at least.) lol

[Irish_Dem]

25. Very interesting study.

That was a heavy topic for a young person!

In clinical practice we do have red flags for conduct disorder in kids.
These are kids who set fires, torture animals, abuse other children.
Smear feces on the walls, etc.

We try to intervene early with them as the research shows this can
turn into serious adult disorders.

I would not be surprised in the least if Trump and his pals
exhibited these behaviors as children.

I read that one reason Trump was sent to miliary
school at a young age is because he beat up his teachers. I guess his parents
figured let's see if he is going to beat up his Army and Marine trained teachers in
a military school.

Yes science training means you look at many variables at one time and put it all together.

[yellow dahlia]

27. It truly was a heavy subject, at the time.

I was in my later twenties, as I had already gotten my degree in Criminal Justice and I was working on further schooling. The class for which I wrote that paper was called Social Anthropology, if I remember correctly.

Right - animal cruelty and lighting fires certainly requires attention, and as you know is one of the variables often found in serial killers....and other future criminals.

I'm a true crime junkie - but you probably guessed that. Mr. Dahlia laughs at me watching my murder shows.

I used to work in a detective bureau, as part of work study. I absorbed those skill sets. I'm also an amateur detective. You can run, but you can't hide...especially now with the internet.

Anyone looking for volunteers on cold cases? Another rabbit hole for me to go down.

[Irish_Dem]

44. Yes it was a very heavy topic at the time especially.

Yes I love watching true crime, mysteries, police procedurals.

There are online venues for cold cases. But yes they are rabbit holes.
You may never come up for air again.

[pat_k]

36. When I was making the case that Trump's psychopathy and

...malignant narcissism was a existential threat to the country back in 2016 and 2017, I got a different sort of push back. There were a folks who objected to the notion of diagnosing him with a mental illness because that would somehow "excuse" his conduct.

I found that view very, very odd.

[Irish_Dem]

42. Yes I got the same thing.

And when I say that Trump is not stupid, he has quite an animal cunning.
People don't like that either.

Yes it is quite odd that people do not want to face the hard facts about Trump.

[allegorical oracle]

4. Nixon exhibited many of those same characteristics. He had the decency to resign. TSF would

never resign and seems far more grievously disordered.

[yellow dahlia]

28. IMHO, Nixon was a fuzzy kitten compared to the grifter.

I would venture a theory that it is because he had a sense of the social contract, and at least some respect for decorum.

The grifter is completely lacking in anything like that. The band of destroyers around him also have no understanding for the social contract, or good old fashioned decorum.

[Paladin]

46. Grimly amusing to watch the "All The President's Men" movie, now.

1976 seems several lifetimes away---back when we thought Nixon was the worst president this country would ever have. Pretty naive, given our current circumstances.

[3catwoman3]

5. There is so much wrong with him that we probably need a DSM code...

...just for him.

MDDD(Multiple Disastrous Defects Disorder) or HCATBD (He Checks All The Boxes Disorder) come to mind.

Or maybe EUBD (Evil Unrepentant Bastard).

[yellow dahlia]

29. I said an addendum to DSM, but your ideas work.

[yellow dahlia]

21. Thank you.

You and Irish Dem have been supplying one of my fascinations (aka hobbies).

While I am not licensed to diagnose, clearly you both are.

I have a related field of study, but no credentials.

[pat_k]

37. I'm not licensed to diagnose either.

I dropped out of the Clinical Psych Ph.D. program at Rutgers after 2 years. I was an older student interested in a career in academia. As the questions I was passionate about were distilled to narrowly defined research studies, and as I looked forward to a stretch of years making no money as a research assistant, teaching assistant, and later associate professor, etc., I decided to leave for some fairly interesting and more lucrative work as an IT consultant.

I'm going from a plain reading of the criteria and the mountains of evidence we have amassed in the years since he came down that escalator (and reports and video from before that).

[Brother Buzz]

2. Mary Trump made a life study of one Sociopath

Her first book, Too Much and Never Enough: How My Family Created the World's Most Dangerous Man is a page turner and merits a read.

She also has an established presence on Youtube; I'm amazed she has been able to remain subjective on her subject, but I guess it's what what PhD's in clinical psychology are trained to do.

[Irish_Dem]

12. Yes I have followed Dr. Trump for some time.

She is excellent and spot on.

Yes it is the clinical and science training that instills the objectivity
and professional approach. However she lets lose quite a bit and
calls Trump out for what he is in layman's terms. Just like I do.

If PhDs talk to regular people like we are trained to talk in our PhD programs no one
will understand us or want to listen to us.
So we have to put it out there in street vernacular.

[Brother Buzz]

17. Ouch, I meant objective, not subjective

[Irish_Dem]

18. I knew exactly what you meant.

My brain read it as objective.

PhDs spend years being drilled on objectivity.
That is why I could work with sexual offenders sitting in jail
when I started my first job. And not make judgements.

After two years of listening to their stories about molesting children,
and blaming the 3 year for the rape, I couldn't maintain a correct
clinical stance so I had to leave the jail setting and go back to the outpatient clinic.

[yellow dahlia]

22. She lived it, and then she learned it.

It is not an unusual path.

She speaks so cogently about the topic. IMHO, one can have first hand experiential knowledge and then compartmentalize it within a clinical context.

When she talks, I listen. I have great admiration for the honesty with which she approaches our current journey into the Twilight Zone.

[Irish_Dem]

23. Yep she lived the insanity first hand.

So then her career followed.

Yes she is very good, well spoken, gets to the nub of the matter.
Doesn't mince words and nails it.

Well yes, the training is to put life in the proper clinical context.

[chowmama]

6. Ding, ding, ding, ding, ding

He hits all of them. So does Apartheid Clyde. And several others I can think of.

[Irish_Dem]

13. Yes the Trump Crime Syndicate has quite a few who meet the criteria.

[mr715]

7. Born or made? nt

[Irish_Dem]

14. We don't know the answer to your great question Mr. 715?

The classic psychology argument, nature vs nurture, to explain human behavior is an old one.
And each decade one side is more popular than the other but then flips back.

Some think a sociopath is formed by the environment and social surroundings, parenting, etc.
But there is thought that the serious ruthless psychopath has serious brain anomalies, serious brain wiring problems.

Perhaps others can weigh in on this. I was more on the clinical end of things, not the hard neurological research side.

[mr715]

15. Ha - its isn't Mr. 715

its mr715, my old nyu net ID using my initials. I guess I was the 715th "MR"

You assessment of Trump, though, in particular. Born or made?

In my experience with students (middle school) with behavioral issues, I've seen some that have a particular flavor of anti-sociality. I've had some that were clearly experienced trauma and had issues with empathy as a defense.

I've had others (actually only 1, suggesting greater rarity at least in my population) that were icy and frankly terrifying. True to the pop-psych sociopath vs. psychopath divide, this kid came from a good home and had a lot of support but still seemed to want to harm for fun.

Personally, in re: Trump, I don't know where he falls. He falls under the non-diagnostic but appropriate term of monster. I guess it doesn't matter much if empathy occurs to him when he harms, because it doesn't change the harm in any real way. My gut, thought, says understanding hurt while you hurt makes it worse...

[Irish_Dem]

16. Mr. 715 sounds fascinating, like someone undercover.

Instead it is a random college ID.

Yes I agree with your comments based on my clinical experience.

I was a therapist for over 40 years, I worked in some rough settings, including
jails and high crime neighborhoods. And with police and courts on various cases.
And hospital ERs doing psych evals and crisis centers.

Also at then end of my career in so called safer areas with a more predicable populace.

Bottom line is that I don't rattle so easy.

But I know exactly what you are talking about.

Sometimes when you are working with someone the hair on the back of your neck stands up.
Your inner alarm bells go off. Something is very wrong. The icy fear is there.

Your brain has picked up something that has not yet been explained logically. The worst case of this scenario was a client who was wealthy, high status, professional degrees, etc.

Some kids have normal brains and are born into toxic homes. That changes their brain chemistry.
And they learn problem behaviors.

Other kids may have problematic brain wiring, some sort of glitch. We cannot measure it yet.

Some of the worst kids I think have both? Problem brain wiring and toxic home environment.

Yes the scary ones know exactly what they are doing. They know they are hurting others and enjoy it. The sadistic psychopaths. In Trump's rapes, he knew exactly what he was doing. He planned the setting ahead of time with the specific intent of trapping women and backing them into a corner to scare and humiliate them. That was the thrill of it for him. And he deliberatly chose settings and women where he could get away with his crimes.

Yes I know, sometimes when I am not working, I go from a clinical mindset to a more metaphysical one. People cross a line from psychopathology to evil.
Putin is one such person, Hitler, Trump. Monsters.

[yellow dahlia]

30. I sometimes refer to him as Frankenstein's monster.

[Irish_Dem]

32. I keep thinking of this metaphor as well.

It is so fitting. And so many people who created the monster are now shocked
the monster is turning on them.

[yellow dahlia]

34. But when Frankenstein's monster threw the little girl into the pond,

he didn't know what he was doing was wrong. He wasn't engaged in mal intent.

However, the monster, in our world, revels in the pain and mutilation and death of others.

[Irish_Dem]

43. Yes they know it is wrong, and enjoy it.

[kimbutgar]

9. Both the orange Hitler and the Rasputin muskrat have the same symptoms

I heard the muskrat say that empathy is a bad thing recently and is the reason our country is not successful !

I was driving and got so angry I got more aggressive driving on the freeway!

That said the sociopathic description defines a lot of repukes and magaloon cult members.

[pat_k]

35. Empathy is arguably the cornerstone of morality

There are many views on what guides moral conduct. I happen to fall into the camp that would argue that empathy is the cornerstone of morality. With that in mind, perhaps it's not surprising that a person who has no moral compass would denigrate empathy as a bad thing.

The following observations on the "radical difference of mental habit between the good character and the bad" is from The Basis of Morality by Arthur Schopenhauer

Page 277

The preponderance of either mode of viewing life not only determines single acts; it shapes a man's whole nature and temperament. Hence the radical difference of mental habit between the good character and the bad.

The latter feels everywhere that a thick wall of partition hedges him off from all others. For him the world is an absolute non-ego, and his relation to it an essentially hostile one; consequently, the key-note of his disposition is hatred, suspicion, envy, and pleasure in seeing distress.

The good character, on the other hand, lives in an external world homogeneous with his own being; the rest of mankind is not in his eyes a non-ego; he thinks of it rather as "myself once more." He therefore stands on an essentially amicable footing with every one: he is conscious of being, in his inmost nature, akin to the whole human race, takes direct interest in their weal and woe, and confidently assumes in their case the same interest in him. This is the source of his deep inward peace, and of that happy, calm, contented manner, which goes out on those around him, and is as the "presence of a good diffused."

Whereas the bad character in time of trouble has no trust in the help of his fellow-creatures. If he invokes aid, he does so without confidence: obtained, he feels no real gratitude for it; because he can hardly discern therein anything but the effect of others' folly. For he is simply incapable of recognising his own self in some one else; and this, even after it has furnished the most incontestible signs of existence in that other person: on which fact the repulsive nature of all unthankfulness in reality depends. The moral isolation, which thus naturally and inevitably encompasses the bad man, is often the cause of his becoming the victim of despair.

The good man, on the contrary, will appeal to his neighbours for assistance, with an assurance equal to the consciousness he has of being ready himself to help them. As I have said: to the one type, humanity is a non-ego; to the other, "myself once more." The magnanimous character, who forgives his enemy, and returns good for evil, rises to the sublime, and receives the highest meed of praise; because he recognises his real self even there where it is most conspicuously disowned.

As I read the following bit, DT's "suckers and losers" echoed in my head:

"he feels no real gratitude for it; because he can hardly discern therein anything but the effect of others' folly. "

Page 214

Boundless compassion for all living beings is the surest and most certain guarantee of pure moral conduct, and needs no casuistry. Whoever is filled with it will assuredly injure no one, do harm to no one, encroach on no man's rights; he will rather have regard for every one, forgive every one, help every one as far as he can, and all his actions will bear the stamp of justice and loving-kindness.

[Irish_Dem]

41. We usually think empathy is the sign of a civilized, advanced society.

Margaret Mead's Perspective:
The anthropologist Margaret Mead famously used the discovery of a healed broken leg as an example of the first sign of civilization, arguing that it demonstrates the ability of humans to care for and support each other.

Yes I was not surprised when Musk made the statement that empathy is a bad thing.
He is demonstrating that he is a sociopath.

Yes I agree, the occurrence of sociopathy is higher in the MAGA cult.
They actually laugh and enjoy it when people are harmed or killed.

[sakabatou]

10. I'd definitely say Felon47 fits this

[Irish_Dem]

40. Yes it is quite apparent.

[misanthrope]

38. By my count, plenty of people meet at least three of those

when they are in college.

[Irish_Dem]

39. There is no research to support that many college students are sociopaths.

While some college students may exhibit some symptoms of sociopathy, it is not widespread
on college campuses.

Many research studies report the prevalence of sociopathy is about 1-3 percent of the population.
It is a rare disorder, not a common one.

Remember we are talking about long term patterns of criminal behavior, or serious violations of the rights of other people.

[misanthrope]

47. It was merely a light-hearted point about the intricacies of diagnoses

There's a lot more to it than a group of non-professionals running down a checklist on someone we don't know and have never met. You even mentioned it in your reply when you touched on longterm patterns.

Would it surprise me if Trump or Musk were sociopathic? Not in the slightest. But I'm not in a position to determine that.