Do we realize & understand & grasp that we are living in a pivotal moment of history?

[elocs]

The fall of the American Empire.
Throughout history there have been empires that rose and fell. I wonder, how many of their citizens at the time understood that their empire was falling? That they were living in the midst of it?

Some countries have lived through the ending of their empires and are good nations today such as the British and the Dutch with Britain and The Netherlands being fine democratic nations. I don't believe we will be as fortunate here in the US. We may survive, but we will never be the same again. Too bad because although we were, are imperfect, for most of our history we were a fairly decent nation.

I'd reckon that the other free and democratic nations are amazed at how quickly our democracy was brought to its knees but I'm sure there were people who saw it coming.
But we were guilty of the sin of pride, like other empires had been, that ours would last forever. I certainly never believed I would be alive to witness its fall. After all, my family had been here for nearly 400 years and I thought I might make it through a decent retirement never believing it would all fall apart so quickly aided by the millions who voted for Trump along with others who were too complacent and over confident to vote.

Sadly, our fall here in the US will not be one of a decent transition to a good democratic nation. No, our fall will be one into evil and hate. I know there are some, many who believe my epitaph is premature but I am honestly, nearly out of hope. Will there be a civil war? Well, unlike our Civil War here is not a clear line of demarcation between slave and free states with good people even in red states. Maybe our trouble now had its roots in the Civil War because the Slave states weren't exactly a bastion of democracy.

But here we are now and everyone who feels able to do the best they can in resistance, good luck. Although maga and the right seem united in their evil while we Democrats too often tend to eat our own when we have disagreements. Oh well, I've voted exclusive for Democratic candidates for over 50 years now and I hope I get the chance to vote again although I'm not hopeful.

[Uncle Joe]

1. We didn't listen to Marley's Ghost

(snip)



They were a boy and a girl. Yellow, meagre, ragged, scowling, wolfish; but prostrate, too, in their humility. Where graceful youth should have filled their features out, and touched them with its freshest tints, a stale and shrivelled hand, like that of age, had pinched, and twisted them, and pulled them into shreds. Where angels might have sat enthroned, devils lurked, and glared out menacing. No change, no degradation, no perversion of humanity, in any grade, through all the mysteries of wonderful creation, has monsters half so horrible and dread.

Scrooge started back, appalled. Having them shown to him in this way, he tried to say they were fine children, but the words choked themselves, rather than be parties to a lie of such enormous magnitude.

“Spirit, are they yours?” Scrooge could say no more.

“They are Man’s,” said the Spirit, looking down upon them. “And they cling to me, appealing from their fathers. This boy is Ignorance. This girl is Want. Beware them both, and all of their degree, but most of all beware this boy, for on his brow I see that written which is Doom, unless the writing be erased. Deny it!” cried the Spirit, stretching out its hand towards the city. “Slander those who tell it ye. Admit it for your factious purposes, and make it worse. And abide the end.”

“Have they no refuge or resource?” cried Scrooge.

“Are there no prisons?” said the Spirit, turning on him for the last time with his own words. “Are there no workhouses?”

(snip)

https://findinghopeness.com/2024/12/22/ignorance-and-want-the-prophecy-of-charles-dickens/

Thanks for the thread elocs

[Wingus Dingus]

2. Yes. They are changing out the machinery, literally and figuratively, of our

systems and institutions and they will never function the same way again. Meaning, they will not function FOR US ever again. The America we've known has died with this last election. Chuck Schumer and most Dems in Congress know it's over. The people on DU and elsewhere screaming for them to fight aren't getting it. Does anyone seriously think the greedy Russian assets, the religious crazies of Project 2025 and the psychopath tech bro's doing all of this are ever going to let Democrats take power again and disassemble or wreck what they're building? We won't ever be able to rebuild America "of the people, by the people, for the people" again in my lifetime, and certainly our days of being respected by the world are over.

[Irish_Dem]

9. Sadly, I think you could be quite correct, Wingus.

Your theory would explain so much.
I have thought about the same.

It would explain the total Dem leadership silence starting Nov 5.
They were in shock that it is all over. They knew it.

Schumer and the other senior leadership know it.

The young Dems want to fight back, at least try to do so.
Bernie will always fight for what is right no matter what.
At least go down fighting.

The other leadership is trying to keep us calm.
Pretend everything is normal.
Like the mothers on the Titanic singing a lullaby to their children as the water was rising all around them.

And it would explain the total lack of fear on Musk's part.
He knows he is in charge with no consequences.

Also explains why the media, billionaires, congress, judiciary, colleges, corporations,
military are not speaking out and in fact kissing the ring and paying huge bribes to Trump.
Allowing themselves to be threatened and humiliated every single day.

Yes you are also right, the vast wealth and power of Putin, the MAGAs, Project 2025, tech bros,
media, all of them ruthless psychopaths are going to let go of their money and power?
When many of them face prison and bankruptcy if the law is applied to them?

They are totally done with democracy, it no longer serves their purposes.

[erronis]

19. Between this post of yours and that of wingus_dingus, I think you've laid it out too well.

They have no intention of turning back. Probably can't since they also live in fear and hatred.

[Irish_Dem]

22. They have zero reason to turn back.

All the incentive is to keep burning everything down.

[DENVERPOPS]

43. Good analysis by all......

What was the saying??????? Nero Fiddled while Rome Burned????? So close to Trump fiddling, (along with Trump, Putin, Chinese, Iran, NKorea, etc etc joining in celebrating......

Any of the lower 99% that even begin to think they will escape unscathed are living in fantasyland.....
This group of Republicans wants to return us to the days before the Great Depression.....THE GILDED AGE OF ROBBER BARRONS,
of only the top 1%.......The remaining 99% will be reduced to being paupers, serfs and peasants......

If there is any joy to be found, it is in the Trumphumper voters starting to get screwed along with all of us. They served their purpose this one last time they were needed to vote, and just now are starting to come to their senses that maybe us Libtards were right after all.....

[Irish_Dem]

44. Yes.

A form of fiddling: the many American people cheering for the destruction of their country,
the federal gov't, and the hatred and cruelty towards public servants, women, POC, and LGBT.

And yes Trump and his govt pals are having the time of their lives destroying their own country.
And humiliate, demean, stalk, place in danger, their fellow Americans.

And of course our enemies are popping champagne corks as we speak.

ETA and yes of course, the MAGAs are going to be the hardest hit group.
The karma train is pulling into the MAGA station.

[DENVERPOPS]

45. All of the UBER rich and politicians

flipping to Trump are doing their damnest to claw, scratch, and climb on board with Trump to be included in the top 1%

Any word on how the Veterans Protest/March came out?????????? Now that would have rattled Trumps cage if over a Million Veterans had turned out in force..........

[Irish_Dem]

46. IDK how it turned out.

I cannot find out how many vets turned out for the protest march.

I don't think Trump is rattled by anything any more in the sense of alarm or worry.

He is on a narc power high, feels emboldened to do whatever he wants to do.

He becomes enraged at any pushback and immediately seeks revenge and payback.

[DENVERPOPS]

50. The only thing

I saw was a few hundred attending if even that many..........

Hope that doesn't indicate that the Vets are mostly Trumphumpers, but wouldn't doubt that they are for a minute.....

[Irish_Dem]

51. Yes does suggest the Vets are mostly Trumpers.

And are totally fine with a white male christian fascist/nazi Russian minority rule

[yellow dahlia]

47. Eloquently framed ID, athough nothing eloquent in the reality.

However, I still believe the fight is worth it. I believe if we could get the truth to the great uninformed, they would join the fight. Otherwise, I fear they will find out too late.

We are not like other countries, such as France, as in the way they take to the streets...en masse. But I think it is still a worthwhile showing of resistance.

I still see a path forward. Part of that involves the truth being revealed about the election. Perhaps other truths that some have called for, such as the stuff about Epstein, might help. There are other truths that could be revelatory, such as the the Butler "false flag" and other propaganda con jobs, (although I'm not holding my breath).

MI6 are you listening?

Moments ago I said to Mr. Dahlia - we are on the precipice. And in the background I just heard Chris Murphy say we don't have much time to save our Democracy.

No coasting in our "golden" years.

[Irish_Dem]

49. I know, where are the CIA, M16, military intel, etc?

They stand by and let nazi fascists burn down our country?

Yes the fighting issue is quite pertinent.
Some of our leadership will not fight and in fact have given in.
Others are fighting fiercely (Bernie, etc.)

Yes we don't have much time, if in fact it is not too late already.

Yes so much for our golden years.

[Lonestarblue]

16. Musk's coders are not just identifying women and minorities to fire, they're rewriting the code for government systems.

If you want to find financial fraud and inefficiencies, you hire accountants. If you want to seriously rewrite government computer systems, you hire coders, which is exactly what Musk has done.

I too am pessimistic that we will be able to turn this mess around in a few years. The damage will be so extensive that it could take decades to fix. As for another civil war, it is unlikely to happen. The media has mostly shown that it is willing to be complicit to stay out of Trump’s crosshairs. Republicans have screamed and yelled at Town Halls, and their representatives went back to DC and voted for the very things their constituents complained about. Their solution was no mire town halls, and the protests by Republicans are no more. Too many Democratic leaders are essentially going along with Trump’s depredations. A few speak out, but you probably have to search to find that news.

Borrowing from Henry II and editing a bit, who will rid us of this troublesome monster?

[pattyloutwo]

58. It's really hard

To keep trying to live normal life while this is happening. And to know what to do

[Maru Kitteh]

63. It's VERY hard. I lean closer to fleeing to Canada, at least to start. At least until my

granddaughter is old enough, or custodial arrangements can be made for her to leave the country.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

3. 1) Yes, 2) Only a fall if one assumes things, 3) Presumes such a fall would be bad, 4) The final pivot out might be cool

1) Yes. I'm Canadian, under attack in an economic war for the sovereignty of my country and my way of life and my liberty. Canada at this point is the most free country in the world.

2) You highlight the "fall" in your first sentence and throughout. It is only a fall if you assume there is an actual American Empire. That is highly debatable. One can point to an almost total lack of colonies (Puerto Rico) and counter with cultural imperialism and commercial imperialism.

3) The presumption is that such a "fall" would be bad. Do the economic decline consequences outweigh the moral and humanistic values? Is money everything? Is grossly over-weighted military dominance and expenditure and risk the only way to obtain world peace and "safety for democracy"?

4) Sometimes things have to get bad to get better. When fighting cancer, we can deploy chemotherapy, which temporarily makes the patient feel worse than the disease symptoms. I thought that one term of tRump would have been enough to show a majority of the populace that going back is dangerous and not worth anything. I was wrong. Perhaps it will take the crippling of government for the majority to realize its worthiness.

As a human society we are on the brink of a very progressive, wealthy, and bright future. But it is blocked and attacked by unsustainable wealth & income disparities, religious dogmatism, authoritarianism, and polarization. Before long (in historical terms) tRumpism and the oligarchs will be discredited and swept away and more balance will be restored. While that happens it will seem like an eternity.

So, yes, we (DU and progressives) realize we are in a pivotal moment in history. Reich-wingers hope and pray that we are in one as their greed, close-mindedness, and denial of facts and natural realities blinds them to the consequences that will befall them.

[erronis]

21. Well said. A glimmer of hope long-term for an extended period of misery.

[MadameButterfly]

65. It is possible that things just have to get bad enough

for enough people to get it. The voters who need to change wont listen to reason. They have to experience the pain.

Things have been going downhill for a long time. Even when Dems won the presidency, the RW paralized efforts for obvious things like gun control and climate change. The days of compromise died with the 70s. We couldn't keep going on that way. Dems could only slow the damage. Republicans took a wrecking ball in every time they assumed power. This is a logical consequence of all that with Putin really running the show.

I hate to imagine the pain that will be required to turn things around but I DO believe they will turn around. Dictators have a way of over-reaching and causing their own demise. I'm not saying I'm ok with the longevity of Putin's reign, but he could have left Ukraine alone, made treaties for their minerals and grains, even worked with the West, but no, he had to re-create the USSR and in so doing tanked Russia's economy. Hitler couldn't fight on one front, he had to fight on two. Trump is dumber than both of them combined. Elon is drunk with power. These types can't help themselves. They overreach.

Think, Trump could have used the presidency to stay free and taken credit for Biden's economy. Elon could have quashed all the investigations against him and left the rest of us alone, and his Tesla empire would still be intact and he'd be richer than he is now. We can, and we WILL destroy Tesla. There aren't enough MAGATs rich enough to keep Tesla afloat. Threaten SS and not buying a Tesla is easy. A French company is about to replace Starlink in Ukraine. And everywhere else in the world after that. Starlink will go the way of Tesla. Elon said cutting expenditures in the US would be "fun." Destroying Elon Musk will be FUN. Let's do it. He is not popular with MAGAs. He isn't what they meant. He will go down. He is "The Man Who Would Be King". They are the French Revolution, prone to arguments amongst themselves. Their necks will roll, one by one (figuratively speaking--but I don't rule out jail). A kid-like actor saying dumb stuff while wielding a chain saw will not have a lasting victory against people losing their SS. I hope it doesn't come to that but if it does, they will fall. Fast.

I don't like to share my religion, generally, but if you don't believe in God, and all the false proclamations made in his/her name, consider possibly that there is energy. Quantum Physics is a thing. A very small number of psychopaths and oligarchs are very weak, metaphysically speaking. There is a wealth of intelligent, compassionate, loving, ambitious, hard-working people who are emanating energy that will prevail. We don't know how this will take form. I often fall into fear because I don't know how, but history can be surprising.

What were the odds of the end of slavery? It required the North to do badly enough that Lincoln had to do the Emancipation Proclamation. If the North had been victorious early, it wouldn't have been required. If Gettysburg and Antietam had not procured Northern victories, there would not have been the credibility Lincoln was waiting for, for the Proclamation. The courageous battle of Fort Wagner was required at catastrophic losses for Black soldiers, and their commander. The Battle of Atlanta happened barely in time to salvage a Lincoln re-election over General McClellan who would have sued for peace (surrender). It took a series of miracles, a lot of suffering, but right prevailed.

I think there is so much we can't predict. Yes, we must strategize and keep fighting. But we must not lose hope. These people we are dealing with are really stupid. Soul-less. Mentally ill. We are love. We are genius. Buy some route we can't predict, we will win.

[mimitabby]

4. Of course

But if I had my choice, we certainly wouldn’t be

[bucolic_frolic]

5. Governments are always for the ruling classes that set them up.

This is no different, it's just that the ruling classes have changed. The pattern has repeated throughout history when greed and corruption infiltrate the State. The populace still trusts the government but is confused because the incumbents are no longer trustworthy. People power > elites > corruption > overthrow is a pattern that describes the last 350 years, from the Glorious Revolution of 1688 to the American and French Revolutions of the Enlightenment to the European revolutions of 1848 to 1968 as well as the rise of the Nazi state and the totalitarianism of eastern Europe and even the fall of the USSR. We are in turmoil, our democratic leaders were weak and lacked foresight. Why did we think Trump would go away or fail after the GOP closed ranks for him after the J6 insurrection? Why do we separate insurrection from revolution? Because the radical ideas driving J6 were larger than an insurrection, or insurrection is poorly defined as the visible spear disconnected from the cultural and political energy behind the revolution. Revolutions always carry through to fruition. Their goals are realized. Democrats need to fashion a counter-revolution. The old order will surface but only in parts. A new way forward needs to be cast.

[Grumpy Old Guy]

6. It wasn't so quick.

It took forty years. It started with a few pivotal moments in the seventies, eighties and nineties. There was the Powell memo, Prop 13 and the "tax payer" revolt, Reagan demolishing Patco, Newt Gingrich, culminating in Moscow Mitch destroying the Senate.

[groundloop]

10. Maybe, but when we elected Pres. Obama I thought we had turned the corner

I remember how I felt when we elected Pres. Obama - we were rid of our racist past and the majority of us looked at people's ability and talents rather than the color of their skin. I now feel totally gutted that every last bit of that is gone.

[Grumpy Old Guy]

18. I felt that way too when Obama was elected.

But then Faux News helped fuel the growth of the Tea Party, the precursor to the Magats.

[erronis]

24. Unfortunately, Obama's elections were the straw that broke the proverbial back.

The white supremacists believed that they needed to stop this liberal movement and they seized the moment(s).

[elocs]

57. That turned out to be a false hope, didn't it. After Obama we've gotten Trump twice.

Fifty years ago during my senior year in college I had thought about emigrating to Australia because they were still recovering from the loss of troops in WWII and would pay for your passage if you stayed for 5 years. Now I'm thinking, "Damn, why didn't I go?" because now I'd be retired in Australia after a working career in the Land Down Under.

[EverHopeful]

12. Yes, yes, yes

Exactly what I've been thinking lately.

Started out viewing our current situation as going from the world's sole superpower to banana republic in less than 2 months but then realized, as you've said, we've been headed this way for decades.

The Powell memo and everything since verifies what I've read: that if enough people are kept miserable enough for long enough, they'll choose authoritarianism and we're seeing this horrific outcome of decades of effort.

[elocs]

32. The last 2 months has been the culmination of the previous decades. n/t

[Bernardo de La Paz]

52. I don't think maga is actually "miserable", ... yet. But they will turn on Muck first then tRump. Won't be pretty

High egg prices? Pfft. Wait till, say, two or three out of 15 in your family lose their jobs, Mr and Mrs maga.

[SWBTATTReg]

60. And this is going to happen as you say, just wait for the other shoe to drop. And MAGAs haven't seen anything yet.

Just wait until enough of them get laid off, and then tRUMP lowers the boom even further, by denying them longer term jobless benefits, calling them leaches on the public teat (this is laid off republicans being called this).

[elocs]

29. The build up to our fall from a democracy may have taken years, decades,

but the imposition of those years came quickly in a few months.
Give them credit...Republicans are patient and play the long game, not giving up such as with overturning Roe which took 49 years. With Roe, Democrats became complacent, thinking it was a done-deal and near to a constitutional right. That did not work out well for us and what is happening now with the destruction of our democracy is just another facet of that long game. We were caught sleeping again.

[Big Blue Marble]

64. Excellent summation of key points along the path.

I would add Bush V Gore, Citizen's United, and the theft of a Supreme Court seat.

[oldmanlynn]

7. It's not the fall of the American Empire

If we get out there and do something about it and so get involved with an indivisible group, they’re organizing they’re telling us when there’s gonna be protest when the larger ones will happen when the town halls happen get involved and stay in touch

[Voltaire2]

8. Why would I want to continue 'the American Empire'?

I don't want any country to be an empire. Empires conquer, exploit, colonize, and plunder. The world does not need the American Empire or any other empire.

[elocs]

34. Empires usually don't believe they will fall even when the evidence is in front of them.

Ours is a sin of hubris, believing we were too great and powerful to fail and fall.

[Voltaire2]

11. Fuck empires. I'm just fine with our shitty empire falling apart.

My wife was freaking out last night because the Odious Orange Dictator was threatening to bomb the people of Yemen. I responded that this is one of the most normal things OOD has done so far. All of my life we have been bombing brown people somewhere on the planet, sometimes right here in our own country. Our president unilaterally deciding to go start blowing up people and stuff in some foreign land, to commit an act of war without paying any attention to a constitution that clearly states that this is a congressional, not an executive power, is ABSOLUTELY NORMAL.

Fuck all empires.

[barbtries]

13. not everyone appreciates this.

when and if they come to that realization, it is my hope that people will fill the streets like never before. #BeTheOpposition #SaveDemocracy

[raging moderate]

23. My 82-year-old husband is in DC at a veterans' protest at the Heritage Foundation.

I do not see any notice of this on Democratic Underground. Yesterday, I tried to get a conversation started about it when my husband went to a veterans' protest at the Fox News office in DC. But I did not know it would be illegal to post the news in the DU Lounge, so that ended that. Today, I still do not see anything on DU about this. My husband said the police were courteous at the demonstration by the Fox News office yesterday. I hope everything is okay today.

[barbtries]

39. I marched in Raleigh

for the Veterans on Friday. please thank your husband for me, I think this is so important.

[notinkansas]

41. You said " But I did not know it would be illegal to post the news in the DU Lounge, so that ended that."

Say what? Illegal?

[Bernardo de La Paz]

54. I made a joke in the Lounge but it was locked for being political. I thought it was too lightweight for GenDisc

No worries. Happens.

[notinkansas]

55. OK. Thanks for the clarification.

[elocs]

35. We're between a rock & a hard place because filling the streets may ultimately bring

Trump to impose martial law. Not from the people, but from maga provocateurs and infiltrators causing violence or looting.

[634-5789]

14. At my age, I will never see the recouping of Democracy as I knew it.

[elocs]

36. Yeah, I'm 72 and I feel the same. I think we took our democracy too much for granted. n/t

[haele]

15. Marley's Ghosts is a very good description of where we are now -

Last edited Sun Mar 16, 2025, 02:14 PM - Edit history (1)

Our immigrant parents and grandparents came to this country pretty much due only to Want. Want of opportunities, of an open land.

For a while, this country were able to address that.
And we became complacent.

We have a big, huge, problem that neither the Christian Nationalists or the Tech Bros who want to rule the Corporate States of America realize.

We (the Societal "We" ) have let our children become Ignorant.
We don't make very much any more. We are a service economy.
Our children assume the basics will always be available to them, the stores will always be open and energy to power their devices will always be available.

Where do your basic items come from? Who makes your clothes, your shoes, your medicines; ready-made foods, flavored drinks, furniture, paper items, glass items, metal items, plastics...?
The tools, and more importantly, the knowledge for basic manufacturing, farming, and home economics has pretty much been lost to all but a few history buffs or experimental archeologists.

With millions of people - especially the wealthy - dependant on imports and shipping for just the basics, what happens now that we are becoming untrustworthy, our currency devalued, and isolated?
When we kick out immigrants and ridicule the "educated elites" with all that soft, woke knowledge of liberal arts, especially as practical economics, education, history, and philosophy?
What happens when the power shuts off and the stores close?
What are we going to do when society collapses?
Corporate Farmers can't just suddenly switch from the exportables (and sterile) mono crops, bio-fuel, and feed grains they've been growing for decades to enough eatable grains, vegetables, and fruits to feed hundreds of millions of people in this country, especially since we have a serious food waste problem to begin with.
We don't have enough small parts, fabric manufacturing to quickly tool up to make cloth, ceramics or plastics, various types of containers; just the basic "nuts and bolts" to keep us as a society going and comfortable. We've been exporting all that manufacturing out since we went to a supply side economy in the 1980's...
Americans are Ignorant when it comes to being able to survive in isolation.

All these wanna-be dictators in their Pride think their wealth in dollars or iterative techno-babble coding will mean anything to the rest of World, who have learned the hard way how diversity and cooperation leads to breakthroughs in science and technology, and how regulation to maintain a level playing field and availability of resources insures innovation.

To all you "Dark Enlightenment" Tech Bros - as it stands now, AI and Robotics might be able to make some lives easier, but it can't feed, clothe, or sustain your life any more than your favorite Video game can.
Technology is "not there" yet, and won't be unless some major philosophical and technological walls are broken, instead of just taking clever coding shortcuts and leveraging on Moore's Law.
At this point, to fully replace humans in any particular field is still only at the equivalent point of asking a 4 year old to go out and get a job.

To all you Theocrats and Supremacists - how long does an isolationist plantation economy - because that's what you're proposing actually last before it falls apart?
History informs that Autocracies, Oligarchies, or Theocracies (plantation economies of very wealthy ruling over a captive work class) can't last much past three or four generations without expanding through breaking up or revolution - and if they do expand, they become diluted; any hard held beliefs or connections to the leadership behind the founding "Government" organizational philosophy becomes individually tribalistic and perverted from the original.
Example - history shows how both Christian and Islamic beliefs split and became embattled when religion forced it's way into a local governance just within generations.
If Autocratic type societies don't expand, they become stagnant, miserable slums that fall into a zero sum anarchy as the strongest figureheads try to force themselves into ascendancy.
They all die off, one way or another. Some sooner, some later.

Isolated Autocratic governance or "plantation economies" can't survive without becoming benevolent or cooperative societies, but that's one thing Theocrats and Nationalists that rule with iron boots can't allow.
Autocrats require four social conditions to hold on to power - Pride, Ignorance, Fear and Want.
They need to maintain Marley's Ghosts. And they refuse to heed the warnings that come with those Ghosts that will always lead to their downfall.

And so ends my online essay.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

17. America First! becomes America Only! becomes America Alone become America Lonely. . . . . nt

[erronis]

25. Very well said! It could be called "Unintended Consequences" but perhaps this destruction is actually

someone's/some group's goal.

[elocs]

42. Complacent. Exactly. As Democrats, too many of us have become complacent.

As a nation, we have become complacent in that we believe that we are not like other empires of the world that have eventually failed--that we are too great and powerful.
Britain and The Netherlands (Dutch) failed as empires but survived as solid Democratic nations. Ours is the sin of hubris.

[Escape]

20. We had all seen evil from a distance...

in our history books, in movies and novels. Other places; other times.

But now, the modern American Republican Party and the Evangelical Christians have brought it into our schools, churches and places of work.

Evil lives next door now.

[SheltieLover]

26. Yup

[andym]

27. Not the fall of the American empire, but the end of the American Century

The US gave up empire building just after the turn of the 20th century. There is no American empire. But the 20th century from about 1940 onwards was called the American century, because the US dominated economically and to some extent militarily. Trump has brought that to an end with his historically ignorant polices. His 19th century Gilded Age policies don't work in the 21st century.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Century

[Voltaire2]

30. We built an empire after WWII.

We just didn't officially annex the countries we conquered. This is not a new form of empire. The model is 'tributary state', or suzerainty.

[andym]

33. No we didn't-- we did not have tribuatory states

such as empires would have-- we just outcompeted everyone-- that's why we promoted free trade. Countries were NOT sending tributes, as typically defined and required by empires throughout history.

Trump would be ecstatic if our allies did send tributes -- his tariffs are a distorted form of something like this.

[elocs]

66. Quibble with words, but it ends up being the same thing.

[andym]

67. Actually the difference is that Trump is trying to build a new American empire: by adding Greenland, Canada etc

So instead of reinforcing a world built on trade (the American Century), he now wants to recreate a territorial based empire of the 19th and early 20th centuries.
By understanding the difference we see Trump for what he wants to be: an imperialist, and why words matter here.

[calikid]

28. Uh, Yeah! I was born to be here now.

I wrote about this fall way back in the early 70's in my high school paper.

[Voltaire2]

31. You are not alone.

I'm just surprised it took this long. I expected things to fall apart earlier, before the Reagan/Thatcher neo-lib restoration. Then as I got older I just put all that aside. Now I am an old fart and here we are, back to The Crisis, only things are much much worse.

[S/V Loner]

37. It will go down in history as...

the fastest decline of a nation ever and self induced.

[MayReasonRule]

38. Embracing Reality Is The 'Hopeful' Path... Reality Is The Reasoned Path Forward...

Delusion rules unless reason resists.
When delusion rules our freedoms cease to exist in application.

Blazing a reasoned path through the delusional jungle is the only modus operandi.

Live in each moment.

Embrace what you love.

Fight for peace, stand for justice, live in honor

The song remains the same.

[Joinfortmill]

40. Yup, we're never going to be the same country again. But, maybe, if we survive the Rancid Menace

that is plaguing us right now, we will actually be a better one. I do believe we will survive this attempt to turn our country into a dictatorship, but it will not be without a great deal of pain and suffering for many, if not all of us.

Keep the faith and do whatever you feel you can. We each have our threshold of 'I'm done with this shit'. I reached mine with the public humiliation of the world hero, Volodymyr Zelenskyy in the Oval Office by a convicted sexual assaulter and a lying, make-believe, pull yourself-up-by-the-bootstraps author. Not to mention, the pouting 'Little Marco'.

That was the end for me. I know prominently carry a blue/yellow scarf on my purse wherever I go. You want to fuck with this old gal, bring it on. So far, no takers. They're cowards. Remember that, they're goddamn cowards!

Thank you, End of rant.

[haele]

48. I'm going to start carrying raw sunflower seeds.

It's the circle of life, after all.

Autocrats without mercy or morals always fail. Either themselves, or their nations.

[Demovictory9]

53. The whole world will mourn. A European told me that they liked that America

Existed as a.model of democracy for the world. 2 months ago they were sad..and things are much worse now

[Wild blueberry]

56. Thank you, and everyone else, for your thoughtful posts

We are living in a pivotal time.
While it is grim now, we do not know how it will turn out.
So, therefore, I will continue to fight fascism.

[wintemark]

59. Hope springs eternal and comes from faith in yourself and others

Don't give up on yourself, or everyone. There are still good people out there and we need each other right now.

[AntiFascist]

61. We need to look toward Europe to uphold democratic governance...

much of it started in ancient Europe with the "Thing," a public assembly where citizens would gather to debate laws and decide how they were to be ruled.

The downfall of world-wide democracies would be much worse than the downfall of an American Empire.

[GoreWon2000]

62. American democracy died on 12/12/00

That was the pivotal moment that unconstitutionally thew out the votes of millions of Americans and put our country on the path to dictatorship.