General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsWe cannot win by hating our fellow Americans.
It is not easy to say.
Trump was successful by dividing Americans.
Now, many of those that voted for him feel that they were betrayed and lied to. Not just by Donald Trump but by their Republican Representatives, also. They are showing their remorse at the townhalls of those Republicans foolish enough to show up under the guise of deceitful courage.
We can only win by uniting Americans.
The problem is that the majority of Americans will not unite under the present Democratic brand.
Therefore, we must seek compromise with those fellow Americans that were lied to and betrayed by Trump, Musk, and the Republican Party. They did not vote for what is happening right now. They did not vote for the richest man in the world to cut their government and for their elected representatives to abdicate all responsibility to their voters and the Constitution.
We cannot hate these folks. We must unite under one cause if we wish to save our democracy and to rid ourselves of this scourge that has enveloped our nation. Ideally, we would be an American Democratic Republican Party, united to save our country. But that is not the real world.
We must stop the hate and unite under one cause. We must get rid of these traitorous politicians that lie to their people and betray their own oath to our Constitution. They cannot be permitted to continue their destructive lies and traitorous activities.
That should be our number one focus and our goal for the immediate future, in my opinion.
= new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight:
NoneDon't highlight anything
5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
Orrex
(67,124 posts)The target of an attack has no obligation to empathize with their attacker while the attack is ongoing, and they gain nothing from doing so.
I'll stop hating those useless fuckers when they realize how deeply fucked they are and how badly they've fucked the country and the world. Until they recant their Republican kkkult ideology and apologize for voting specifically to harm others.
Until that day, fuck every least one of them.
kentuck
(115,419 posts)...and disaster.
Orrex
(67,124 posts)hatrack
(64,915 posts)Yes, more diner interviews, more Bible beating, more anti-abortion laws, more raving Executive Orders, more destruction of the public sector, more grift, graft and greed and someday soon, Trump et. al. and his legions brainwashed clowns will accept us for who we are, in a diverse, secular nation of laws.
Right?
GoneOffShore
(18,021 posts)
On Not Meeting Nazis Halfway
Orrex
(67,124 posts)
CrispyQ
(40,979 posts)The people who told the truth don't need to make liars feel better about themselves or what they said. Those who were targeted by this war don't have to do all the peacemaking.
Hotler
(13,747 posts)How about wandering on over to Free Republic or what ever it is and ask the repugs there to reach out to us. Let us know how that goes.
Omnipresent
(7,459 posts)The problem is, the worst of them tend to get the attention and the mic.
Cirsium
(3,947 posts)It is not possible to be a Trump supporter and not know that it means the only good Democrat is a dead Democrat and much, much worse. The cruelty and the bullying is what MAGA is, it is the attraction for people.
No passes. No excuses. No tolerance. No compromise.
Omnipresent
(7,459 posts)You should leave that to the leaders of the Republican Party. 
Cirsium
(3,947 posts)Not sure what you disagree with.
Do you think it is possible to be a Trump supporter and not know that it means the only good Democrat is a dead Democrat and much, much worse. Do you think it is possible to be a Trump supporter and not be at least tacitly supporting those sentiments?
Do you doubt that cruelty and the bullying is what MAGA is, it is the attraction for people?
Your statement, that not all Trump voters say "the only good Democrat is a dead Democrat" may literally be true. They don't need to. It is as built in feature of MAGA. So, you win this round of the Internet follies, I guess.
Most white supremacists don't say they hate African American people. Most homophobic bigots don't say they hate gay people. Most misogynists don't say they hate women.
So it seems that your "too be fair, they all don't say that" has broad application. But for you, the problem is that the worst of them tend to get the attention and the mic.
I would say that the worst of them are the ones that support racism, homophobia and misogyny silently. Is that what you mean when you say I am taking the Republican rather than the Democratic approach to these issues?
Omnipresent
(7,459 posts)They tend to have varying ideas on what they want and what they’re mad about.
Even some of the fanatical looney ones i know, have never uttered words of demise like “Death to Democrats” or “A good Democrat is a dead Democrat”.
Like most people, they don’t want to toy with idea of getting tangled up in the justice system.
You must be talking about the few, that try to bait Democrats, and usually they’re rightwing militia groups.
Cirsium
(3,947 posts)I am in the reddest county in the state here. Can't avoid MAGAs.
As with racism, and as I illustrated, people don't need to be overtly making statements, or using the "n" word, in order to support those statements. There are many people who actually think that so long as they are not using the "n" word they can't be racist.
Politics is not about individual feelings, in any case. Did all Nazis in Germany personally hate Jews? What difference would that make? Did all Nazis in Germany run around saying "death to Jews?" No, but so what? They all supported the Holocaust. That support took a variety of forms.
There are many ways to say "death to Democrats." Supporting Trump is one of those ways.
mcar
(46,069 posts)
Bettie
(19,714 posts)They win by demonizing anyone not in their little club, by stoking hate.
And we're supposed to offer them a hand, which they will chop off with gleeful laughter?
Sky Jewels
(9,148 posts)
ck4829
(37,778 posts)Cirsium
(3,947 posts)These are not normal times.
usedtobedemgurl
(2,053 posts)It is like someone saying to me I should get along with the fuck who raped me. I am buying a gun this weekend to protect myself from these fucks because no find them such a threat, but I need to unite with someone who hates me! Nope. I habe had enough gaslighting in my life.
stoned
(334 posts)and not useful and part of the reason why we are where we are.
Coddling and accommodating and empathizing with the Fuckhead Right ideology is exactly what brought us to this point.
Perhaps you could encourage the patients in a cancer ward that recovery depends on them embracing their metastasized tumors.
GoneOffShore
(18,021 posts)« Aimez-vous les uns les autres, sauf les nazis. Brise leur coeur. »
Love one another, except for Nazis. Break their hearts.
Also:
“One can neither agree with a fascist nor be friends with one, unless one is a fascist..."
« On ne peut ni être d’accord avec un fasciste ni être son ami, à moins d’être un fasciste. »
CrispyQ
(40,979 posts)Like they say in Germany, if there's a Nazi sitting at a table & ten other people are there with him, you have eleven Nazis.
GoneOffShore
(18,021 posts)usedtobedemgurl
(2,053 posts)You are saying the Jews should have reached out to the Nazis as they were being loaded on the train? That Ukraine should compromise and give up part of their attacked land to Russia? I have been attacked and threatened by these folks. I had to throw my trump loving son out of the house because he has diagnosed mental problems and we had to sleep with our bedroom door locked. I live in fear of these people but you are saying the mouse should reach out to the cat who wants to kill him? Who is being irrational again? You live your truth but don’t tell me with threats and all that I am the one being irrational! Think about it!
No, "stoned," we did not get here by being too hard on the MAGAs.
They are lost and unable to be reached.
We alienated the center. A lot.
Cirsium
(3,947 posts)I keep hearing about this "center." Can you describe it for me?
stoned
(334 posts)mcar
(46,069 posts)Please explain.
Self Esteem
(2,248 posts)I'm not sure people understand this.
You can attack Trump all you want. You can hold his feet to the fire all you want. You can even go after the right-wing fascist pundits and influencers all you want.
But the Democrats will never win another election again without winning over voters who supported Trump in 2024.
That's the reality.
And here's the kicker: the Democrats don't even have the luxury anymore of investing into the idea that if more people had voted last year, they would have won.
Research by the party's own leading data scientist David Shor shows that Trump would have won by five-points nationally if every registered voter voted.
In fact, Harris won more votes in most swing states than Biden did in 2020.
Trump just increased his total way more.
What does that mean? A lot of voters who voted Biden voted Trump in November, and a lot more who didn't vote at all in 2020 also voted Trump.
But worse off for Democrats is that a majority of this country, when you factor in the idea that had more people voted, is more sympathetic to Trump than they are Democrats.
Democrats have their lowest approval in history and are coming off the biggest electoral vote loss since 1988.
Something is terribly wrong with the party and I'm not sure continuing to alienate voters who obviously are open to supporting Trump is going to help the party regain any level of relevancy.
In fact, the last people I'd want to listen to on how to proceed forward is a group of people who routinely denied the idea that the 2024 election was not only close but one Trump absolutely could win. There's a massive segment of partisans here who absolutely do not have the pulse on America and their continued refusal to accept the scary reality we're looking at is not going to magically help, either.
Demonize the candidate but the Democrats clearly ain't winning anything by attacking voters who have shifted over to Trump the last four years. That's just a recipe for disaster.
Orrex
(67,124 posts)Last edited Thu Mar 20, 2025, 12:24 PM - Edit history (1)
No shit Democrats are the minority. I mean seriously no shit.
When Democrats are in the minority, we’re told to empathize and reach out to the fuckheads on the Right.
When Democrats are in the majority, we’re told to empathize and reach out to the fuckheads on the Right.
The result is a relentless and accelerating race toward fascism. I’m unimpressed by you and others who fret and call for appeasement.
Every last Trump voter can fuck themselves forever, and trying to win their votes is a fool’s quest in pursuit of garbage.
We’d be better served by trying to motivate those voters who opted out in 2024 than by trying to deprogram the fuckheads who voted for Trump.
kentuck
(115,419 posts)It might be easier to persuade them to not vote for the Republicans causing them pain. Same result.
Orrex
(67,124 posts)Then you can’t convince them not to vote for an undisguised fascist.
FUCK THEM.
Cirsium
(3,947 posts)"Win their votes?"
It is time to face reality. We are up against fascism. Commit to fighting that. Enough people will join. But pandering around to maybe get a bare majority here and there with weak, middle of the road milquetoast candidates with a "D" behind their name, and then trying to fight will not work. That is exactly what brought us to where we are.
Commit to the fight first, and people will follow. Pussyfoot around trying to "win them over" and we will get screwed again and again. Trying to out-Republicans the Republicans always fails, whether it is trying to "appear tough on crime, immigration, war, the budget, etc., or it is privatization and dismantling the public infrastructure, it never works. It doesn't bring over many Republicans, it alienates the base, and it confuses the people who don't follow politics.
Self Esteem
(2,248 posts)You also clearly refused to read my post. The Democrats' own data scientist said that voters who sat out the 2024 election were more sympathetic to Trump and had they voted, they would have voted for him and Harris would have lost by an even bigger margin.
I don't think you get it. The issue is that a lot of.people who found Trump unappealing four years ago have now embraced him. It's fucking political suicide to just shrug and write off every one of those voters/non-voters because you don't think their vote is worth it.
But that's likely why we're in this mess in the first place. Too many Democrats were flippant to the changes, or refused to believe what the data was telling us for a solid year.
The data prior to the election pointed to Democrats struggling with Latino voters, at least compared to previous elections and that was routinely dismissed here as fake news.
What happened? Democrats lost significant ground among Hispanic voters between 2020 and 2024.
Biden won this group 65-32 in 2020.
Harris? She won this group 51-46.
Democrats went from +33 points among Hispanic voters in 2020 to just +5 in 2024. That was a change of nearly 30 points! Democrats are never winning another presidential election again if they're only winning Hispanics by five-points.
Moreover, Harris lost Hispanic men by 10 points.
Everyone should be asking what happened there to drive Hispanics to Trump after their overwhelming support of Democrats at the presidential level since 2008.
But again, signs were there that people refused to listen to because they couldn't comprehend why Trump was winning.
We also had evidence to suggest that Trump was doing much better among the less engaged voter than Harris.
Trump won because he won overwhelming with voters who rarely vote. Harris did better among consistent voters but Trump consistently polled better among those who only voted twice in the last four years (+12) and +7 on those who had never voted at all.
Trump won first-year voters by ten points over Harris.
You can't write these voters off. Clearly Trump was able to connect with a segment of the voting population that just started voting, or sit out elections. So, you can't even count on voters who didn't vote to correct all this because those voters were far more likely to support Trump than Harris. It's also why Trump generally polled better among all voters and all Americans than likely voters.
If that's the case, again it's not smart politics to write off these voters. Apathy doesn't mean they're not supportive of Trump. In fact, that's one area Trump has excelled: he is far more popular with non-active voters than he is active voters. They just don't vote for whatever reason.
So, that leaves those who we know vote and it's downright insane to write off a lot of voters who have traditionally supported Democrats in the past but shifted to Trump in 2024...especially since they're mostly minority voters who shifted as Harris actually did better among white voters than Biden.
So, yes, it's nonsensical to say Hispanics that shifted to Trump after overwhelmingly supporting Biden, Hillary and Obama should go fuck themselves instead of asking WHY they shifted and how Democrats can win back those voters.
You're coming at this from a purely emotional point of view and that isn't going to win anyone anything.
kentuck
(115,419 posts)Many believe that government has gotten too big and it is mostly the fault of the Democrats.
That is a challenge.
Self Esteem
(2,248 posts)Start with pushing banning stock trading - which still has opposition among Democrats.
Lean into the idea of making the government more efficient by a legitimate, bipartisan audit of the government. You know who did that? Harry Truman. But do it transparently. You can win over some swing voters who do not have faith in the government by weeding out wasteful spending and focusing on corruption (IF it's done the right way).
Cirsium
(3,947 posts)Democrats lose because we don't fight the right wingers, not because we do.
There can be no compromise whatsoever with MAGA. That is suicide. It is very demoralizing to see people arguing for that failed approach.
Self Esteem
(2,248 posts)Nothing nonsense about what I said.
You're arguing something that wasn't discussed in the message I responded to. I never said don't fight right-wingers or compromise with MAGA, so please don't put words in my mouth.
I was responding to this take:
THAT is a suicide take.
There is no path to victory without winning back some voters who supported Trump in 2024 and we know where the support largely shifted, as I showed in my reply: Harris did significantly worse among Hispanics than Biden, Hillary and Obama ever did.
Those voters shifted dramatically. Instead of telling them to go fuck themselves, maybe ask why Hispanics, who have supported the Democratic Party at larger numbers than any demographic outside Blacks, decided to shift toward Trump in 2024. If you're not willing to ask that question, then truthfully, Democrats don't deserve to win.
You can fight MAGA and the right-wing but also concede that the party lost voters - and they better damn well figure out how to win 'em back or they're going down in 2026 and 2028 as well - and I promise you, telling a voter who supported Biden four years ago, Hillary eight years ago and Obama twelve years ago to go fuck themselves won't win 'em back.
Orrex
(67,124 posts)Or until they pull their heads out of Trump's ass, recant their fuckhead views, and vow never again to vote Republican.
Until then, fuck them fuck them fuck them.
And you imagine that to be a suicide take? Fuck that, too.
Self Esteem
(2,248 posts)Orrex
(67,124 posts)"Maybe he'd stop beating you if you were nice to him," you prattle emptily.
Good luck with your campaign of appeasement, Neville. I'm sure that it'll work this time, and the fascists will totally collapse under the force of your feeble acquiescence.
Cirsium
(3,947 posts)Understood.
Why do you think Democrats lost voters?
Self Esteem
(2,248 posts)That's why I think it's important to be open to understanding what happened, specifically with Hispanic men and Black men, who saw the biggest shift away from Democrats between 2020 and 2024 and to be honest, the shift started before then too - going back to 2016, Black men voted 82-13 for Hillary and Hispanic men voted 69-25 for her - and in 2024, Black men voted 77-21 for Harris and Hispanic men voted 54-44 for Trump. So, Democrats went from +69 among Black men in 2016 to +56 for a loss of 13% and among Hispanic men, went from +44 among Hispanic men in 2016 to -10 in 2024 for a staggering loss of 54 points among that demographic.
I think the Democrats' days are numbered if they can't win back some of these voters.
Why did they vote for Trump? I can't say. You could blame sexism but that doesn't explain why they voted in stronger numbers for Hillary than Harris and you can blame racism, but that also doesn't explain why Harris, a Black person, saw a decrease among Black men.
In reality: Democrats actually improved significantly among white voters in 2024 compared to 2016. Hillary only 37% of white voters in 2016 - Harris won 42%, which was actually better than Biden.
I think it's imperative to figure out why the party is losing minority support, especially to someone like Trump.
But I don't know why and I don't think we'll figure out that answer writing off the 50% of Hispanics who voted for Biden and flipped to Trump last November.
Cirsium
(3,947 posts)Thanks for the thoughtful reply.
I think there is a big shift happening. I wrote about back in December.
Excerpts and the link to the full post:
Is a Grand Realignment Coming?
There may be a grand realignment of the parties coming, as has occurred in the past - in the 1850's, 1910's for example. That grand realignment has already happened with the electorate. County by county, across the nation, the higher the average income, the better Harris did; the lower the average income, the better Trump did. That is a stunning reversal. It was the other way around for 100 years. Something has to give.
The more Democrats wooed the upper middle class professionals, the more they alienated blue collar folks. That opened the door for right wing populism, as historically has always been the case.
...
The Democratic party has become the party of the upper 20%, by the upper 20%, for upper 20%. That described the Republican party a generation ago. Meanwhile, blue collar workers have drifted to the Republicans out of desperation, because there is nowhere else to go. Many Democrats cannot accept that, because they do not understand the suffering and resentment of the bottom half of the population, do not see how tone deaf the Democratic party messaging is, and do not see how compromised and conservative the party has become in all areas except a couple of "culture war" issues. Worse, Democrats right here every day mock and ridicule the blue collar people and dismiss their suffering. On the "culture war" issues the right wing has defined the terms of the debate and controls the messaging.
On top of all of that the party leadership has allowed the right wingers to get almost complete over the national political discussion - social media, cable, streaming. I was startled to see when I searched for "news" in Roku's "app store" that there were a dozen or more right wing channels, including Charlie Kirk, Steve Bannon, et al, all advertised as "fair" and "honest" news. Then we have the dozens of religious channels on cable and satellite, many of which are thinly disguised right wing propaganda outlets, along with the 3 or 4 far right alternatives to Fox. Then we have Sinclair broadcasting monopolizing local TV news, and the thousands of right wing AM radio stations.
https://www.democraticunderground.com/100219802191
Dan
(5,192 posts)Win or lose, I think that I will be able to look in the mirror and respect myself for opposing Hate/Intolerance/Misogyny/Racism/Ignorance and Stupidity/Indifference to suffering/Fighting Science/Supporting Putin and other Dictators/Believing that the law if for you and not for them/etc.,
Maybe if a group of people are wrong - maybe they are wrong and appealing to evil so that they can feel better about you, might be wrong.
Maybe your way is joining with the Nazi so that you can change their minds from the inside while they have death camps and are destroying the world.
Maybe some things are worth fighting for.
I read somethings a few days ago, it read something like this:
The people that hid Anne Frank were law breakers,
The people that turned in Anne Frank were obeying the law.
Which one which you choose to be?
Self Esteem
(2,248 posts)The fact is, the only group Harris actually improved upon compared to Biden in 2020 was white voters.
She lost ground with Black and Hispanic voters.
That's the base of the Democratic Party and has been for generations. In 1984, a landslide loss for Democrats, Mondale won 91% of Black voters and 66% of Hispanic voters - that was better in both than Harris in November.
The problem as I see it is that everyone should have seen this coming. Poll after poll throughout 2023 and 2024 indicated there was a shift among minority voters. And yet, every time that was mentioned here, people dismissed it.
No way would a minority vote for a Nazi like Trump!
Well...some did. A lot did. Trump did better among Black voters than any Republican in modern history. He did better among Hispanic voters than any Republican since exit polls were established.
How is that possible? Why did that happen? I think we should figure out what triggered the exodus because unless Democrats fix it, they ain't winning again. The party doesn't do well enough among white voters, who are the majority of the voting population, to barely win Hispanic voters and to continue to see softening support among Blacks.
That doesn't mean you capitulate to MAGA or the hate but at least give them a chance to explain why they shifted so significantly...instead of just dismissing them outright because they happened to vote Trump.
There's clearly a messaging problem with Democrats and it's why their polling is in the trash right now. It's gotta be fixed and alienating people who have voted Democratic for years isn't going to fix that problem.
LuvLoogie
(8,818 posts)Nope.
https://www.brookings.edu/articles/a-deep-dive-into-the-2024-latino-male-electorate/
And fuck MAGA.
Self Esteem
(2,248 posts)It's just a different data point. You should also read your own link and see that Harris did significantly worse among Hispanic men than previous Democrats:
So, even here we see evidence of a significant shift among a minority group - and that's the point. Democrats hemorrhaged support among this group compared to four years ago and you don't think we should ask why?
Yeah - I hate to say it but your line of thinking is exactly what will end the Democratic Party. You can say fuck MAGA all you want to make yourself feel good but it doesn't address why Democrats saw a shift away from the party in November - and it certainly doesn't help address how we win these voters back.
But go off!
LuvLoogie
(8,818 posts)So I'll go with a Brookings article over your random assertion. Had you said that Harris didn't do as well with Latino men as Biden did, then you would have more credibility regarding that demographic.
Latino MAGA are straight up racist. Other Latino trump voters switched from Biden because they couldn't vote for a Black Woman.
The Latino MAGA voters I know are exactly this, racist and good with trump's destruction.
Civil society has already let racist fascists start dismantling the structure of this country.
It's no longer about trying to coddle the feelings of racists for their votes. It's too late for that. And pointless. They will cry about their wives getting deported, but still vote for trump again.
They walked into The Bog of Eternal Stench with fair warning and on purpose. MAGA is the one burning bridges. THEY don't want diversity, equity, and inclusion. THEY want to arrest and incarcerate people without due process. THEY want a police force with immunity. THEY want trump. The GOPs ran him three times in a row.
I'm not a preacher. I can't persuade them to be better. I save that energy for my kids and people who are already there with me.
It's pointless reaching out to MAGA. AS pointless as Marco Rubio.
Self Esteem
(2,248 posts)Multiple of which showed she lost the Hispanic vote.
But what all the sources say is that Harris lost ground with minority voters. And Democrats aren't going to win another election again without figuring out the why. Some here seem perfectly content losing those voters and never winning another election again. If that's your take, more power to you - I disagree.
I don't see it pointless at all trying to re-reach voters who have voted Democratic in multiple previous elections but, for whatever reason, decided to shift to Trump in 2024. Instead of taking the lazy way out, and just shrugging your shoulders and saying, "I guess they're MAGA now", if you actually want to win - you've got to task WHY they went from supporting Hillary in 2016, Biden in 2020 and Trump in 2024.
Think. Again.
(22,456 posts)There are Democrats, NAZIs, and yet another 1/3 of the voting age population that doesn't vote (so far).
We are in a fight between Pro-Democracy and fascism.
Let's not waste time, money, and effort "reaching out" to fascists, let's focus on alerting the non-voting 1/3 to what is at stake.
mcar
(46,069 posts)We don't always agree on this board, but you are 100% correct here. 
Think. Again.
(22,456 posts)There is no more "winning over" MAGAs.
"Continuing to alienate voters" by what, being too hard Trump?
You can't reach out to MAGA cultists without embracing bullying, bigotry and cruelty.
We move forward and fight with what we have. No more compromise. No more pandering.
in2herbs
(4,405 posts)Could their lack of protesting in support of F47 mean that they don't like what they won (F47) and are now regretting their embrace of a Nazi?
mcar
(46,069 posts)how do Democrats reach common ground with racists and sexists?
Self Esteem
(2,248 posts)Are you saying it was racism that made Hispanics and Black voters shift toward Trump? Because that's where he made the most of his gains: minority voters. Trump did better among Hispanic voters than any Republican in modern history. It was the same with Black voters, especially Black men. They shifted 13 points to the right between 2016 (Hillary) and 2024 (Harris). Obviously they weren't sexist in 2016 because they had no problem supporting Hillary by wider margins than they supported Harris. And are we suggesting they're racist for supporting a white woman by higher margins than a Black woman?
What about Hispanics? Hillary won Hispanics 66-28 in 2016 and Harris only won 'em 51-46. Obama won Hispanics 71-27 in 2012.
So, is that shift racism or sexism when another woman did significantly better than Harris - and a Black man did better than those two?
You don't think it's worth wondering WHY Hispanics and Blacks shifted more to the right in 2024?
Dan
(5,192 posts)Are not going to vote for a woman regardless of how qualified she is and incompetent her opponent. This also true of some women. Part of that you can blame on religion, part on their cultural up bringing, part on that false sense of masculinity, and part to just being stupid.
Are we to reject 50% of our population from higher office because some men/women have a problem?
In America are we now adopting what the GOP is saying out loud that now only white men are entitled to lead? Even if that man is an idiot?
Maybe some good will come from the Trump presidential period. Maybe he will luck up things so bad, leading to a great depression or a war, that even the 7/24/365 Fox viewer might wake up and start to exercise some critical thinking.
Maybe we as a nation might have to lose everything so that we can put things back together.
Self Esteem
(2,248 posts)Or was she not a woman?
Dan
(5,192 posts)I responded to another person who pointed out that (in his opinion and based on his observations) population would not vote for a Black Woman (or a Black/whatever biracial). I responded negatively to this person and said that the people would when faced with the choice of Donald vs Harris.
I was wrong, and he was right. I viewed things from my history and how things were when I was growing up. He was looking at how things were currently. He was right, I was wrong.
Donald Trump has been on the News damn near every day for the past ten years, he has been selling himself and attacking everyone; in addition to giving —insert your group here— validation for why they are not successful or in a better condition than they might find themselves.
I knew that some Black men would not vote for a woman; I guess I never expected that they would reject a Black woman in the numbers that they did, especially as you consider the historical legacy of who Donald is and his race relations. I never really factored in the influence of the Middle Eastern men/women and how they viewed a woman’s place. I was aware that some Hispanic men/women had a slanted view of a woman’s place in society which might be subservient to men. And, then the religious people and their views on Abortion and again, the woman place as being slightly behind in a supportive role to a man. All of these factors factored in.
Going forward, these issues (and more) will continue to be an obstacle for a woman to assume the mantle of leadership. Especially as with this administration they are promoting a world view that only White men are qualified (I use that word with a sense of irony) to lead America.
Thinking about it, I grew up in a segregate America where we had all Black teachers (male and female), who did everything they could do (with limited resources) to make us aware that we could do it, we just had to work harder and smarter. That the pigment of the skin did not make for the intelligence (or lack) of the person, that hard work and respect for ones’ self and belief in your own abilities would help you overcome. I could go on.
I would not recommend a return to segregation (as maybe Donald and Musk) might want, it is too damaging. But, I can see from the mirror looking back, that the experience did prepare us (those like me) to better handle the America that is rather the America that we might like it to be.
I think the Generation Z men - have and are living a life like a video game without understanding the reality of what they are doing. I think that some of these younger people are nostalgic for a past that never was and a future that cannot be.
Just thinking, but in your thread, some people have posted various things about reaching out. I think that we can be successful by reaching out to those that have turned off our political system (non-voters), but I remain convinced that reaching out to MAGA is a fool’s errand. They are a cult and like Jimmy Jones’s people, they will drink the poison rather than wake up.
I don’t know if this is the answer you were looking for - but it is the answer that I find within myself.
Self Esteem
(2,248 posts)As I suspect had Biden stayed in the race, he would have lost by a lot bigger margin than Harris did.
The reality: these demographics shifted in 2020 too. It just wasn't enough to flip the election. Biden underperformed Hillary in Texas border counties by a sizable margin. These counties are largely Hispanic majority and Democratic strongholds. But Biden did, in some instances, like nearly 40 points worse than Hillary, like in Zapata County, Texas, which is 94% Hispanic. Hillary won this county 66-33 over Trump in 2016 and Trump actually won it 52-47 over Biden in 2020. In 2024, Trump won it 61-39.
So, it went from +33 for Democrats in 2016 to -5 in 2020 and finally -22 in 2024.
In eight years, Democrats have lost 55 points in the margins in this county.
In 2012, Obama carried this county with 71% of the vote.
A county that is 94% Hispanic - and Democrats went from winning it with 71% in 2012 to losing it by 22 points in 2024.
That's problematic. If Biden had equaled Hillary's success in Hispanic-dominant counties in 2020, he would have carried Texas.
In reality, that was our first indicator that maybe something was shifting. But we could ignore it because Biden won.
So, why did Trump go from losing this county by 33 points in 2016 - to losing it by only 5 points in 2020, to winning it by 22 points in 2024?
What the hell happened there?
I see this as a microcosm of the party's bigger issue: they have lost the faith of those who supported the party the most staunchly.
They gotta figure out a way to win it back. I don't think calling a county that Obama won by 43 points in 2012 and Hillary won by 33 points in 2016 racist or sexist. That to me is not a winning message.
But there's something going on there and Democrats better figure it out because I think it's starting to creep into other areas and a is a big reason Democrats lost.
Had Harris won the Hispanic and Black vote at the margins Hillary did in 2016, she'd be president right now.
And that's not to blame those groups - it's to put it out there that we've got to figure out WHY they're drifting toward Trump. Because the party isn't viable enough with white voters to win again if they keep losing support among Blacks and Hispanics.
Dan
(5,192 posts)Some people are making a lot of money and some are just screwed.
Anyway, thanks for your comments.
mcar
(46,069 posts)Self Esteem
(2,248 posts)Thank you for clarifying.
It all makes sense now. Black men were racist toward Harris! Despite overwhelmingly supporting Obama in 2012. The fact Trump did better among Black men is entirely racism, right?
Or is it sexism, despite Hillary winning this group by massive margins in 2016?
Not much different with Hispanic men, who supported Hillary with near-record numbers and Obama too and yet shifted toward Trump in 2024.
I get it. It's much easier to just cry out racism and not actually put in the effort to figure out why they shifted.
mcar
(46,069 posts) Self Esteem
(2,248 posts)Let's see how far Democrats get calling Hispanic and Black men racist and sexist. I'm sure that'll get 'em back on our side.
Blue Full Moon
(3,505 posts)The are only way they are going to wake up is after they get whacked upside the head. The democrats need to go after the people who don't vote. There is more of them than trying to uselessly convert magats.
kentuck
(115,419 posts)Good luck in getting them to vote in the next one!
Orrex
(67,124 posts)
FoxNewsSucks
(11,736 posts)They are WRONG. Deliberately, maliciously wrong and they enjoy it.
Fuck them all.
Initech
(108,815 posts)We need a drastic fundamental change in society. The kind of change we saw under Obama. Until that happens, people are just going to keep voting for the terrible politicians trotted out by the shittiest news network on the planet while falling for their conspiracy theory bullshit. 
Blues Heron
(8,859 posts)We have been bending over backwards for these evil, ungrateful pukes, now they can live their evil puke paradise for a while until they have had enough, then they can beg to be accepted by us.
cadoman
(1,617 posts)We warned them. About Russia. About the sovereignty of Ukraine. About the need for education and healthcare. About the fragility of the markets and our trade partnerships. About the need for a pandemic plan that everyone would get behind rather than splintering in our own uniquely ignorant and dumb YOLO inclinations.
We are now an international embarrassment. There are literally Nazis marching in our streets. Nazis working in the government. Nazis wearing Nazi hats and smiling as they overpay for groceries. Barely a hum in the background of this madness, our respected news institutions are warning us about the destruction of critical government functions and jobs--functions and jobs which are foundational to our Democracy--now being destroyed to lay the foundation for a permanent white, Christofascist, Nazi state.
There is nothing hateful coming from us. We are acknowledging the reality of what is happening. That is not hate. Fighting back against fascism is not hate. Hating hate is not hate. Nazis cannot be hated any more than a roach or rat can be. Nazis can only be recognized for being Nazis and taken down.
"There were very fine people on both sides."
Magilla
(24 posts)Quite a bit of hatred from people responding to this thread.
Look it is a simple math problem. The country is divided 50/50 ( actually 48/48 according to rcp) if you look at Trump’s approval numbers.
In order to win you need to appeal to some of those voters. Somehow I don't think telling them to fuck off is the correct strategy.
Blues Heron
(8,859 posts)Enough with that right wing talking point. We are not the haters.
"Somehow I don't think telling them to fuck off is the correct strategy."
Then you would be wrong.
MorbidButterflyTat
(4,531 posts)
NewHendoLib
(61,864 posts)
samnsara
(18,769 posts)Response to kentuck (Original post)
Name removed Message auto-removed
sop
(18,681 posts)Emile
(42,344 posts)we wouldn't had known, but the stupid trolls are making it too easy.
Hugin
(37,849 posts)That’s when the ketamine kicked in.
Autumn
(48,966 posts)They are vile nasty hate filled people. They take plleasure in hurting people. They are a danger to the country, the people , their future, and the planet. Fuck them all to hell.
LoisB
(13,054 posts)them and only the people they hate would be harmed.
atreides1
(16,799 posts)Lincoln did that, and got a bullet for his troubles. The US allowed the lesser known Nazis to walk away, and they were able to export their brand to the US...and a lot of Trump's base lean in that direction!
I don't know about you but to me it seems really stupid to make nice with the people who voted for Trump because they wanted to watch others suffer!
If someone is a threat to my family, I have mixed race grandchildren, it's my primary DUTY, to prevent them from hurting those I love and care for...not to invite them into my house and sing Kumbaya!
They f**ked up, they are the ones who need to admit it!!!
WhiskeyGrinder
(26,964 posts)
PufPuf23
(9,870 posts)on both sides of the aisle.
That is the goal of the fascists.
Don't think many at DU support that compromise with MAGA. Don't think anyone should share that compromise.
The fascists are busy consolidating wealth and power while destroying education, science and Federal social benefits.
Many members of religious death cults support the MAGA fascists.
Sinclair Lewis wrote, "It Can't Happen Here".
Guess what it has happened here and probably will get much worse.
Salvation of an egalitarian society can only be found in the young and those willing to gamble their social positions.
EverHopeful
(694 posts)because I believe we're doomed if we don't find a way to reach as many of these people as possible. I'm grateful every single day that I don't live in a MAGA area but I have loved ones who do and fear for them, for our republic, and for the world.
https://freedomofmind.com/resource-links/books/
SocialDemocrat61
(7,660 posts)I’m sorry but sometimes the vitriol and nastiness that some direct at other DU members over minor differences of opinion is completely inappropriate. It sometimes seems that some don’t come here to connect with fellow democrats but to take their anger and unhappiness out on others who they try to bully. It’s just not constructive.
stoned
(334 posts)and I get shit on every time I express it.
Ideologues and zealots are rarely useful. We need pragmatists in the middle who see the issues clearly and rationally, and can propose solutions and attack issues in ways that recruit the maximum number of supporters.
Where is Harris, where is Biden, where is Obama? Where is our legacy leadership? Asleep at the wheel, that's where. We need respected leaders to step up and lay out a clear, cohesive path. The vilification on both sides gets us nowhere.
Orrex
(67,124 posts)kansasobama
(1,750 posts)This has been bugging me a lot
Hope22
(4,767 posts)Now is not the time to turn a back. People financially supported her and then after a tumultuous end we were left hanging. No path forward on how to endure the disaster she was predicting. She knew it was coming….and here we are. It is frightening and sad. I wonder what a town hall with her would be like today?
MorbidButterflyTat
(4,531 posts)How many Republican MAGAts have you converted since this has been your position "forever"?
The issue I see clearly is Republican MAGAts are gleefully destroying anything and everything they can get their scummy paws on. He's a convicted felon, FFS! He's a rapist, a grifter, a misogynist, an extortionist, a liar, a Russian stooge, a wannabe dictator and a fugly piece of shit. (etc. infinity)
"I hate Taylor Swift!" Can anyone imagine the heads exploding if President Biden or any Democratic politician had tweeted or truth socialed this idiotic, juvenile, misogynistic bullshit? His cult LOVE IT.
Good luck to you and please keep us posted how many converts you achieve.
"The vilification on both sides gets us nowhere."
Nope, nope, nope! That "both sides" ship sailed and capsized long ago.
303squadron
(828 posts)I just had a Facebook exchange with a MAGA. He had asked to be my friend even though he knew where I was politically. I think he wanted to stir the pot.
Anyway, we argued about musk. I pointed out his neo Nazi statements including his retweet of Holocaust denialism.
He didn’t care. He is quite happy to accept a Neo Nazi making decisions about our country AS LONG AS HE GETS WHAT HE WANTS.
I grew up in a time in America where Holocaust deniers were shunned by both parties and no one ever thought they would run our government.
The paradox of a tolerant society is that it cannot accept intolerance.
sop
(18,681 posts)misanthrope
(9,496 posts)It is a poison pill to a well-functioning and mutually respectful society. That was why Karl Popper argued that it must be kept in check to guard against despotic rule.
Hope22
(4,767 posts)It’s not possible to work with people who have zero critical thinking skills. They take zero responsibility for their vote. To make matters worse they are openly agreeing to racism, discrimination on all levels and are passively watching as TSF dismantles this country and the world. We need to expose why the R congressional members continue to actively destroy this country. Put it out there. Let them try to defend this madness. There is no defense. A lifetime of lying and denial will not change in this century!
They need to reach out to US not the other way around.
kansasobama
(1,750 posts)I agree with you. I believe it is coming to a head-democracy vs fascism. I cannot support fascist fellow countrymen.
Scrivener7
(59,540 posts)
zanana1
(6,488 posts)
dalton99a
(94,267 posts)
delisen
(7,377 posts)Seeing human beings only as units in an economy is a major part of the problem we need to solve.
Government is not a business. Citizens are not just workers and/or consumers.
It is time to run to danger not shrink from it.
AverageJoe
(2,427 posts)The GOP roadmap for a second Trump term, Project 2025, was no secret. Trump voters got EXACTLY what they voted for. They just expected the horrors to only be visited on other people.
The Wizard
(13,747 posts)Since their inception they've cast all things not Republican as a mortal enemy that must be eliminated. They've been effectively dividing us with Russian propaganda for nearly 30 years. It's a very effective brain washing operation. Once they've gone to Pox News they're pretty much resigned to marching in lockstep with their captors.
Once I realize them using Pox News talking points I end the conversation. They need to be professionally deprogrammed in order to become reality based.
Paladin
(32,354 posts)Response to kentuck (Original post)
Rendville This message was self-deleted by its author.
Paladin
(32,354 posts)yagotme
(4,135 posts)Happy Hoosier
(9,535 posts)Frabkjly, we've done the "we they go low, we go high" thing. Does not work. I've tried facts and reason. I've tried promoting policies that help them. But it all comes down to hate. WE had best not bring a knife to a gun fight, is all I'm saying. We didn;t beat the Confederates, Nazis, or the Imperial Japanese with love and reason.
EnergizedLib
(3,055 posts)That’s the way I see it.
cachukis
(3,961 posts)of an adult. Those habits show preferences of ideology. One of those, we all share, is personal benefit.
What I observe among MAGATs is them being personally affected by the DOGE fallout. They voted for trump because he sold them their ideology. Sadly, for them, they never peeled away the layers of the consequences of that ideology.
Application of an idea is exponential for a shallow thinker.
Their personal grievances are now on display. Their underlying ideology has not been broken. Habits can only be replaced by choices that require repetition to develop myelin coating in the pathways of the brain.
Those are cathartic experiences when one sheds the burdens that have stymied their stagnation.
Tough to get out of comfort zone.
The majority won't, but I appreciate your appeal to those who might.
kansasobama
(1,750 posts)This type of weakness will get us consumed while the MAGA fellow Americans will destroy you. If they are fellow Americans, they would have put a felon, intent on destroying democracy, in charge.
Swede
(39,547 posts)Fuck em all.
blubunyip
(286 posts)--and the rich "I Got Mine" voters--who know very well, when holding their noses, what they are voting for. And there are a LOT of those!
They are all MAGA now--no "moderates," no "fiscal conservatives." A smart Rethuglicon voter is a worse offender than a stupid one. IMO
If some of the poor suckers who have seen the light want redemption and they align with us, then OK. But they have to exit the cult pretty decisively and how many can really do that? The wealthy ones will always forgive themselves and do it again -- they are a cult too tho they don't wear red. Their team colors are green, gold & silver.
Sorry, no kumbayah. Doesn't work and not our job anyway.
kacekwl
(9,161 posts)what some of them are starting to see, that Republican Congress is not helping but hurting them. They have to see that they are supporting a Russian sympathizer who is working actively against our allies. Democrats have to pound every Republican in Congress and call them out on their support for this. Make them explain why they support this un American president and his clearly illegal actions. I don't care about what trump and his Nazi administration says I want to know what every Republican has to say on the record over and over again. Paint them for what they are. If they don't support this then make them vote against this and for you.
kentuck
(115,419 posts)And it was the only was to win back the House and Senate and take back the White House?
Otherwise, it would be the demise of your political Party and your country?
How far would you go, if that were the case?
For starters, let's say that we are not the majority Party in this country?
bluestarone
(22,201 posts)It's just to big a pill to swallow. No matter how you try to explain it, it's a pill that many of us here will NOT swallow. Sorry but i'm with the other side her! I will never compromise with these type people.
kentuck
(115,419 posts)Or any election in the future? Unless we do something differently?
I think the last election was proof that we are not the majority Party in this country. It's difficult to make changes from the minority.
That is a basic reality we do not want to overlook, in my opinion.
bluestarone
(22,201 posts)Differently will NOT be making friends with TRAITORS in my thinking. We (you and I ) will never agree on this.
kentuck
(115,419 posts)I do not think we will ever win another election with "this" Democratic Party. We must change. How we change and how much will be up to us?
Or we can run another election with the status quo.
I think this is probably where we disagree?
It would be tragic if we were the minority Party after the next election.
walkingman
(10,890 posts)the people that elect and re-elect them knowing how they act, the policies they support, they are the problem. The politicians are just opportunists.
I could excuse someone for the Trump 1.0, maybe they didn't know what he stood for (that in itself is hard to believe) but to re-elect him again - nope. He speaks their language. I don't know that language.
BlueKota
(5,363 posts)It's like assuming anybody but Putin will win a Russian leadership election. Why do you think the right has been working so hard to disenfranchise Democratic voters?
usedtobedemgurl
(2,053 posts)To win back. A lot of us think that is long gone.
kentuck
(115,419 posts)I'm still not certain that the last election was fair and above-board? But we will have to be very vigilant the next time around. There is no doubt in my mind but that Trump and the Republicans have built up a very strong political movement on lies and hatred and division. If we cannot win the votes of the pissed off Trumpsters, then maybe there is a chance we can persuade them to not vote Republican? That is a vote for Democrats either way. It is a political opportunity which we should not squander, in my opinion.
Cirsium
(3,947 posts)Compromise is exactly how we will lose the party and the country.
Saying we need to compromise in order to save the party and the country is backward.
Meowmee
(9,212 posts)You are dealing with a cult of fascists etc. and some may be idiots who apparently did not know or remember or simply didn't care that psycho felon, convicted of 34 or however many felonies and guilty no doubt of many more, murdered over 1 million Americans with covid. In a sane country /democracy with sane people, such a person would never be allowed to run for office much less have anyone vote for them.
Let that sink in.
The vast majority are not remorseful, they are upset because what they voted for has affected them personally. If any are truly remorseful and apologize for handing over the country again to an insane person intent on destroying it and harming everyone, of course they should be accepted provided that they are going to vote D. Otherwise what would the point be?
The R party is complicit with this insanity and destruction- these people enabled that by voting them and psycho in. If they are willing to help change that fine.
I don't see it happening in large numbers but I hope enough will to stop what is happening. The same goes for anyone whether R or not that voted for this, or voted for it by not voting. I believe D are already planning to have town halls for R constituents whose reps etc. have stopped doing it due to pushback. I don't see anything to compromise with at this time. We are in a state of emergency and it needs to be stopped. The focus needs to be on that imo.
tulipsandroses
(8,252 posts)How the hell do you compromise with that? A million people died. Many did not have to. They died because of trump's malfeasance and MAGA's indifference to life and true liberty. They cosplay being patriots.
Furthermore - The mistake many Americans made was thinking racism is dead. Thinking that this was a small minority of people. It was really not that long ago that Americans gathered in public spaces with children to watch the brutality of murdering humans by lynching. Not really that long ago that America was an apartheid state.
There can be no compromise. You either believe in equality, justice and democracy or you don't.
William769
(59,147 posts)They don't want compromise. Guess what? I don't want it anymore either. They want our complete & utter destruction and I want their utter & complete destruction.
I have personally taken their shit for years. No more!
GusBob
(8,253 posts)You are claiming we should not hate traitors and liars?
Doesnt add up buddy
The Grand Illuminist
(2,041 posts)They did it by sound minded choice and must be held accountable as well as suffer consequences both imaginable and unimaginable.
kentuck
(115,419 posts)...we will lose again. We are not the majority in this country at this time. What do we need to do to win back the voters of this country? That is the basic question.
Keepthesoulalive
(2,307 posts)Maybe anti abortion, try to be white Christian, deny climate change , be more anti semitic , hate Muslims. Where is this common ground we can stand on. Your rear is not in danger. A lot of us will not vote for KKK lite.
Cirsium
(3,947 posts)We don't need another exercise in salesmanship. Enough with the pandering, triangulating and compromising in order to "win back" voters. That has been tried again and again and again. It does not work.
What do we need to do to have people join us in the fight against fascism to save the country? That is the question. We commit to fighting fascism. People will follow, many won't. Electoral politics is one small part of the problem. Take a stand and fight, and the votes will follow.
Wingus Dingus
(9,173 posts)Our goals are permanently incompatible. If I could move, I would.
AnnaLee
(1,395 posts)for one American and one immigrant American.
CoopersDad
(3,340 posts)We can productively engage without compromising those values that are being eroded.
We can, instead, engage and try our best to attract their support for those things with which we agree.
Social security, for example.
johnnyfins
(3,791 posts)Cult, and going after the 30% of people who didnt vote at all?
Think. Again.
(22,456 posts)stoned
(334 posts)ck4829
(37,778 posts)We can have not just the greatest healthcare system in the world, but one where sci-fi writers have to keep up with it.
Why not have that instead of settling for this one?
We can have a participatory democracy.
Why settle on trying to turn Trump king?
We can have a knowledge base and access to information like nobody else has seen.
Why settle on Facebook and rumors of “they’re eating pets”?
tulipsandroses
(8,252 posts)with hateful bigots.
The vast majority of them absolutely voted for this. They just did not think they would be victims of their own hate. I have yet to hear any of these trump voters, caught in the cross hairs of their mad wannabe king, express empathy for the suffering of all the people being harmed.
They are only upset that they are being hurt.
They are perfectly fine with others being hurt.
I have no intention of making nice, or compromising with them.
There are plenty of non voters - Our goal should be to activate them. That is an easier feat IMO than trying to convince people who lack morals, integrity and are just plain hateful and despise democracy to vote for democrats. Non voters do not think the system works for them, our goal is to empower them and help them understand how their vote up and down the ballot can make a difference in their lives.
Keepthesoulalive
(2,307 posts)People willing to see us hang from trees or killed by bullets so they can feel comfortable again.
boston bean
(36,934 posts)Paladin
(32,354 posts)The very last thing Democrats should be doing now is engaging in the same wimpy-assed behavior that has been empowering the far-right opposition for decades. Jesus, you'd think we'd learn from our mistakes. More demonstrations in the streets, and much less of this Love Your Enemy stuff...
Ocelot II
(130,614 posts)You don't have to hate your neighbor in order to oppose his position with everything you've got.I don't hate the dumbasses who voted for Trump because he conned them into thinking he'd make eggs cheaper and throw out the bad brown people. I think they're stupid, though some are possibly educable - but I'm not about to compromise with respect to their ignorant, bigoted opinions, and if any of them start pushing that shit on me, I'll get some hate going. And I do actually hate the Nazis and Nazi-adjacent fuckwads that have infested our government. They deserve to be hated and there can be no compromise with these monsters. There is no middle ground to meet on. Not gonna sing kumbaya around the campfire with people who want to destroy the rest of us.
La Coliniere
(1,940 posts)You cannot compromise with fascists and those who want to destroy our democracy. This seems quite clear to me.
kentuck
(115,419 posts)And it would be naive to think otherwise, in my opinion.
Ocelot II
(130,614 posts)I doubt it. Their whole ideology is based on hating immigrants, minorities, uppity women, LGBTQ people, and anyone allied with them. We could invite MAGA into our homes, smile, hug them, tell them we love them, and sing happy songs, but the minute one of their Untermenschen - a trans person, for example - walked into the room, their hate would unfold. We don't have to hate them back - hate is bad for your soul - but we sure as hell don't have to compromise on those fundamental issues. If we did we'd be just as bad as they are, only with better teeth.
kentuck
(115,419 posts)But do we want to be like them? But my point is to use their hate against them and for political victory. We should not drive them away, in my opinion. I don't think that would require compromise of principles. We need to improve our political numbers and we should not discard any of the possibilities. The situation is too dire to lose to pettiness.
NH Ethylene
(31,352 posts)Remember the early days after Luigi killed the United Health Care CEO? Everybody was cheering him on to some degree. Everybody is being hurt by rich corporations, everybody feels the pain when the tax cuts go to the wealthy, everybody fears the power of insurance companies to determine your medical future.
But then Trump spoke against it and the MAGAs followed him.
But my point is, the only way the country is united (or at least enough to win an election) is by stressing issues that matter to us all. And the super wealthy people and corporations who are running this country, and have been since Reagan, are 'enemies' we all have in common.
kentuck
(115,419 posts)...this may be a time when the enemy of our enemy is our friend?
the_liberal_grandpa
(298 posts)we level the playing field.
Until then, we fight like hell!
BlueTsunami2018
(4,993 posts)They were warned time and again. Not only by our side but by Piss Wig and Elmo themselves. They flat out told everyone they were going to crash the economy. That they were going to do these tariffs. That they were going to fire all these people. That they were going to eliminate the department of education and put a lunatic in charge of health and human services.
Project 2025 was out there for all to see.
They did vote for this. And now some of them are sorry? Now we have to reach out to them?
They should be reaching out to us.
Bengus81
(10,176 posts)kentuck
(115,419 posts)They were/are dumbasses. Perhaps they thought the Democrats would never let it happen? Many never thought it would impact them personally, I am sure.
But now, if they are willing to oppose the fascists, then, in my opinion, we should consider them a political ally, not a hated enemy.
Whether they vote for the Democrat or they don't vote for the Republican, that is a win for our Party and our country.
Keepthesoulalive
(2,307 posts)Stop hating others. They have almost destroyed this country with their hate of others. If you want this nation to have any type of future, Americans in the south and Midwest have got to stop the hate. They vote for Desantis, Green, Hawley and so many other hate mongers. We can’t change them , they have to want to change themselves. You speak from privilege, we speak from history.
LS0999
(280 posts)Hatred is a very powerful tool that can be used and MAGA uses it quite well. That hatred should be channeled towards the oligarchs.
Prairie Gates
(8,198 posts)
Vinca
(54,013 posts)going to get behind that. Democrats don't need rebranding, but they need to be out there and vocal. People have no idea what Democrats do or have done, even though many of them depend on the services that ensued to survive. They don't understand that to get anything done in Washington you need a majority and you get a majority by voting for the better of the 2 parties. They don't understand that not voting or third parties usually only delivers the worst results. Maybe we need a leftie reality show - the "anti Apprentice" - to get through to them. Maybe they will just have to experience the pain Trump will cause them to wake up. Until then, I doubt any attempt to "make nice" will amount to much more than a middle finger in the face.
kentuck
(115,419 posts)The fact that some of them are pissed off is an opportunity for Democrats to go into their districts and give them a different story. They believe the Democrats are the Devil himself.
Ilikepurple
(698 posts)Most here will admit the pro Trump propaganda was effective enough to at least swing that last election. I’m troubled by the number of posts that ask the Democratic Party to compromise its ideals to appeal more to the brainwashed. I’m guessing many are coming from those whose privilege makes compromise less of a compromise. I know compromise is a key component to effective democratic politics, but I’m not seeing much we can compromise on here. Know that if we concede our leftish policies they will find a way to demonize our centrist ones.
Obviously, the preference would be to convince some of the propagandized that the Democratic way is superior. A common refrain I hear is that we got the info out last election and still lost, so we can’t fight them on the information front. I haven’t given up on this. If anything, the wide ranging ill effects that I think will come from this administration might be the perfect medium for lessons in how conservative policies of austerity and hate can negatively affect many of them. I also believe we’ll unfortunately have many teaching moments for the apolitical segments of our population. We don’t need to swing that many people.
Solly Mack
(96,953 posts)White supremacy? Once again denying the history of black and brown people? Women dying because of abortion bans? Supporting Putin? Celebrating dictators? Supporting attacks on the Constitution? Banning books? Banning history? Embracing white evangelical theocracy?
Because the right-wingers now being harmed by the attacks against America and our democratic government didn't just vote for Trump because "he is one of us" - they knowingly and willingly voted to harm people. To kill people. That was their choice. They don't get to pretend otherwise. No one gets to pretend otherwise.
What exactly does compromise look like with all that?
What? Put all that aside to save the republic? So we can live to fight those same fights another day only to end up back where we are right now? Because as long as they see the world through their fear and straight white male Christian supremacy, they will always be a threat to the rest of us.
I don't know the answer, but I do know pretending they didn't vote to cause people harm isn't the way to go.
When you commit the wrong, it is your duty to make the overtures. Your duty to make it right. Not your victims.
William769
(59,147 posts)But that's ok, it's still there for everyone to see.
Solly Mack
(96,953 posts)Then I went outside to calm down. I watched the birds for a few and that helped.
I can't excuse their ignorance. Their ignorance has gotten people killed and more will die.
People have indulged the ignorance of haters for too long. They have made excuses for it. They have attempted to give it validity. They have sought to give it equal footing with facts, logic, and reason.
I'm sick of hearing how I must understand what makes the haters tick.
I know what makes them tick - their ignorance and their hate. They embrace it and wear it proudly.
William769
(59,147 posts)
kentuck
(115,419 posts)...on hate?
But, I will admit I was looking for political advantage from those that might be pissed off with DOGE and Musk.
Solly Mack
(96,953 posts)actually mean harm to republicans when they start making laws to erase republicans from America.
When they pass laws that get republicans killed. Deported. Detained. Arrested.
When they take health care and earned compensation away from republicans.
When they starve republicans.
When they chant and cheer at rallies for the eradication of republicans.
That's hate. That's what republican voters do.
There is no compromise with that.
People speaking out of anger and hurt is one thing.
Actually embracing, supporting, voting for and implementing hate is another.
Their anger at Musk and DOGE can be harnessed but that doesn't mean compromising. That doesn't mean pretending they didn't support what's happening, because they did. They're just upset they got caught up in the same net they voted for to catch others. Use their anger, but never once pretend their beliefs aren't harmful to America, harmful to everyone else. Just because republican voters have a valid right to be angry now, doesn't mean their political views/beliefs are valid.
Trump is just as guilty as Musk - more so as he put Musk into place. The Heritage Foundation/Conservatives are as well. What's happening now has been in the works for decades. The GOP has been wanting this for a long time. They have never been shy about it.
MorbidButterflyTat
(4,531 posts)I appreciate them so much because you express my thoughts and feelings much better than I could.
Solly Mack
(96,953 posts)I get "we're all in this together" thinking. I just think the GOP has been trying to push people like us out of the picture. Hard to work together in that case.
MorbidButterflyTat
(4,531 posts)
Grim Chieftain
(1,754 posts)and continues to support him has no place in my life. Support for tRump tells me who you are, what you stand for, what you believe in, what your values are. There is no middle ground. He called our war dead "suckers and losers", chided John McCain for getting captured saying he likes guys who didn't get captured - I could go on and on, but you know his many offenses.
He is devoid of morals and integrity and is driven by ego, hatred, revenge and greed. Anyone who is okay with that has no place in my life - former friends and family included.
Nimble_Idea
(2,849 posts)sounds like both siderism with a side of understanding hate
no compromise
Rigpa108
(71 posts)Yes, they did.
Ping Tung
(4,370 posts)Ad just the advertising to the audience. It's useless to talk about subway crime in Strawberry Point, Iowa or Fertilizer prices in NYC.
Easterncedar
(6,296 posts)We are all hurting and scared and veryvery angry, but an argument for civility shouldn’t be itself so divisive.
Thanks for having the courage to stand up against hate, although I don’t know if there’s a civil way to the other side of this disaster.
The ugly racism, sexism and worship of totalitarianism can’t be reasoned away, but must be fought, hard and urgently. Hate the sin but love the sinner? I don’t have it in me, but can admire the capacity in others.
kentuck
(115,419 posts)..for what they got in return for their votes, is a bit disappointing. It's not like we are offering forgiveness to all the racists and haters in the cult that continue to support their Leader. But the political point is that we may be able to win the next election if we do not let the hatred overcome us also.
Easterncedar
(6,296 posts)All the schadenfreude may feel good short term, but it can’t disguise that the harm is being done to all of us - and the world. We need to more effectively target our resistance.
blubunyip
(286 posts)own epiphanies, maybe appeal to their preferred higher power for help and direction (and forgiveness). The first thing they have to do is admit they were wrong. Many are in denial and will not budge on that. I speak from a perspective of psychology more than politics.
It is not our job to rescue them with offers of encouragement. We have already provided a clear alternative, offered solutions, which they rejected. Yes, we DO need to encourage (and demand) better leadership in our own ranks, but the idea that we have to coddle these buyers remorse voters is misguided IMO, though I don't doubt you have the best of intentions, Kentuck.
To consolidate our own strength, we need to maintain our boundaries. Strongly. Those who come over by themselves, OK fine. We need to speak up loudly and publicly, have the courage of our own convictions, stop worrying about de-programming the cult. If they really find enlightenment, they'll be looking our way. Our time and energy is much better spent appealing to non-voters and non-MAGA voters, which would be helped by encouraging less compromise in our Progressive leaders. The pissed off MAGA base will have to get their own heads together.
ImNotGod
(1,194 posts)
maxsolomon
(38,749 posts)We will not "get rid of these traitorous politicians that lie to their people and betray their own oath to our Constitution". They'll be back in 2026, 2028, 2030. The people you want to unite with will put them back and cheer their cruelty.
kentuck
(115,419 posts)That, in my opinion, is the route to a Democratic victory. They are scared to death of a primary. We should send people into their districts and encourage primary opponents, and if there is no Democrat running, we should encourage the Democrats in those districts to vote for the incumbent's opponent, or any "Independent" that is running. They should be more scared of the voters than they are of Donald Trump.
maxsolomon
(38,749 posts)I'm not.
kentuck
(115,419 posts)..if the Democrats are willing to work for it. Get in there and make "good trouble".
Cirsium
(3,947 posts)That thinking process got us to the nightmare we are living in now.
Crushing MAGA is the proper goal, not merely a few Democrat electoral victories.
Smash MAGA and everything becomes possible. Fail to put it down once and for all and everything good is possible.
This goes far, far beyond red versus blue partisan electoral politics.
SnoopDog
(2,695 posts)Traitors like Trump?
Think. Again.
(22,456 posts)
Skvngr
(53 posts)There is nothing that will make me not hate these complete morons. After January 6th they still voted for him. After seeing project 2025's agenda they still voted for him.
After the disastrous response to COVID they still voted for him.
I would argue that hate has a very important role to play in our defense of democracy, and anyone who voted for this idiot is an enemy of democracy therefore an enemy of mine therefore I hate them with the passion.
RockRaven
(19,429 posts)Our emotional state won't be determining any election outcomes. People can go ahead and hate them, or love them, or be indifferent to them -- as long as they also do whatever work is necessary to get enough votes cast and counted to win.
Prairie_Seagull
(4,701 posts)When I was a 14yo I began my training. By the time high-school hit I was a specimen of fighting skill (if I do say so myself). I choose to use this skill to stand up to bullies. Never, never had a problem with anyone who was not picking on someone who was an easy target. I have lived it. Bullies understand one thing, you can not reason with them, they don't understand a stern talking to. They will back off when they are made to.
Does everyone who voted for stump deserve a bloody nose. Of course not. Many do however. I am all for a constant dialog with the other side, through strength!
The Third Doctor
(449 posts)That got us into this in the first place. No more trying to be fair and nice to them. You don't appease facisim you fight it. They have shown us who and what they are.
h2ebits
(1,003 posts)I had written a reply but when I hit Enter we were offline for maintenance and my written comment disappeared.
Just know, that many of us agree with you and your comment is sound.
Mysterian
(6,512 posts)These fucking deranged cultists would shove us into gas chambers.
stillcool
(34,407 posts)the teaching and learning of this shit has been going on for generations. What is needed is some damn truth. Everywhere.
Oopsie Daisy
(6,670 posts)As long as we unite as Democrats and hate them more and harder and more viciously... then we, too, can win. (Or something.)
Iggo
(49,939 posts)Skittles
(171,791 posts)NOPE
bucolic_frolic
(55,216 posts)
B.See
(8,532 posts)However, that being said, the LEAST we can do is be aware of WHO and WHAT they are, and what they stand for.
Know thine enemy.
FullySupportDems
(449 posts)I'll accept them as decent human beings if they change their minds about a lot of things. Like the idea of getting rid of certain people, and starving other people, as policy. I used to believe some stupid things. It will help if they also feel badly about how awful they were.
GoCubsGo
(34,930 posts)And, who would prefer to see us all dead?
stoned
(334 posts)something occurs to me. This is exactly why our party is circling the drain. Zero cohesion. The right is nothing if not united, but it certainly wasn't always that way. We used to be the united party.
JoseBalow
(9,516 posts)FOAD
orangecrush
(30,395 posts)
BlueKota
(5,363 posts)The only reason most of them are remorseful is because they are just realizing they are going to get screwed right along with the rest of us.
They were all fine and dandy with the Nazis until they realized immigrants, people of color, women who believe in equal rights, and LGBTQI weren't the only ones who were going to suffer.
Not one of them can say they didn't know precisely who Trump and his thugs were. It was spelled out for them in terms someone with only a basic grade school education could understand, but they chose to ignore it because "owning the libs," was more important to them. They voted for him of their own free will, so whatever bad happens to them now is of their own making not ours. We tried to warn them and they gave us the finger.
So I feel the same amount of empathy for them as the majority of them feel for us which is 0. If there are any of them who are willing to actually apologize to all those they wanted to see harmed, actually mean it, and are willing to step up to at least try and reverse some of the damage that's different.
To the ones who only are just whining because they got hoisted on their own petard. They can go eat orange shit.
FullySupportDems
(449 posts)Basically, I think many people here might have those same views if we had come from a place with people holding those views. Certainly some people would turn against the bigotry, as some people always have. But I contend that if you're normal where you are now, think about how likely is it you would break out of everything you were raised to believe? I'm not saying it never happens, but I am saying it's not as common. I think it's a point worth considering. If we're broad brushing the opposition for hatred, understand it means hating a lot of average people. Unfortunately. Just my 2 cents.
BlueKota
(5,363 posts)There are plenty who hold prejudice for others for no other reason than they were born differently than them. There are even those in my own extended family who are like that.
Through church, (yes it had some good sides), high-school, and college, and yes even TV, I still grew up managing to strongly believe that wanting to harm other people for being born a certain color, ethnicity, or gender was just devoid of reason. There are people who willingly chose to do bad things to others in every race, creed and gender on earth.
It's those people who know it's not right to hurt others when they haven't done anything to them, who choose to hurt them anyway that I have issues with. I am sure a lot of dictators and serial killers had bad adult examples and were traumatized in their life, but it's not an excuse to hurt others who did nothing to harm them. Self defense against someone who is actually trying to harm you or someone else is different. To me that is fair.
It's like Musk. Yes he was raised under Apartheid, but he had plenty of opportunities to educate himself, and chose a different path but he willingly chooses to be an asshole now. He wants to leave destitute anyone who wasn't born with the same skin color or gender appendage as him. He doesn't get a pass for that from me. He should quit whining about the consequences of his own actions.
mcar
(46,069 posts)They just didn't think it would apply to them - only to brown/black people and lib'ruls.
hamsterjill
(17,592 posts)I’m never going to forget what the assholes who voted for Trump KNOWING what was going to happen did to my country, people that I love and care about and me personally.
Any of them who want to claim ignorance as to what they expected to happen are either too stupid to bother with or else are lying through their teeth. They knew because so many of us tried to tell them and explain.
If they couldn’t understand facts and logic then, what makes anyone think that they will during the next election IF there even is another election?
Fuck them all!
vercetti2021
(10,481 posts)I on the other hand will absolutely fucking not. These people are trying to erase us from existence. For all I know, anyone who voted for this fuck is an enemy. Democrats need to grow a fucking pair and start fighting back against these Nazi's. ENOUGH OF THE PEACE AND LOVE SHIT.
EarthFirst
(4,160 posts)The only reason you’re witnessing anger or buyers remorse from Republicans is that the crows are coming home to roost in ways that affect them personally: social security and Medicare.
It’s a perfect example of the only mandate that Trump was given by these folks was deeply rooted in xenophobia and racism.
They’re actively engaged in a culture war.
If you think for a moment that I am going to compromise with individuals who would marginalize the existence of a fellow American human being; I’ve got news for you: you and I aren’t working for the same end results.
Compromise with racist ideologies. Get real.
EnergizedLib
(3,055 posts)Did the other side ever reach out to us or try to placate us? No, they shored up their base.
We need to do the same, and rid this country of the cancer that is MAGA.
biocube
(222 posts)instead of the party itself. They can't imagine that their favorite figures in the party are all politicians at the core or that they could run a bad campaign and only bad people would vote against them.
This past election saw a state that Trump won by 18 pass a minimum wage increase/mandatory sick leave by 8 points. Of course Democrats are far too afraid of being called "kaumyanist" to go all in on economic populism.
SocialDemocrat61
(7,660 posts)Some can’t bear to hear any criticism of their favorite political, in some cases, media celebrity. I believe in policy and principles. I didn’t agree with Obama and Biden about everything but I don’t need to. I’m not in a cult.