Video games are evil

[nadinbrzezinski]

So we do not need to speak of the 90 round magazine used at Sandy Hook

Got it.

[backscatter712]

1. Those are today's talking points, alright!

Courtesy of Frank Luntz and Wayne LaPierre...

[nadinbrzezinski]

3. To the credit of Frank Luntz

He discovered how much regulation actual NRA members want that change.

Some of this happens with every shooting. At aurora it was back to the future to the 1950s. (Comics are evil).

I suspect some of our low post posters are that though.

[backscatter712]

12. Am I the only one who suspects a bit of zealotry-trolling going on here?

I don't know if zealotry trolling is the right word, but it seems that I see people putting up strawmen.

We're getting a few douchenozzles who are castigating everyone who dared to watch a violent movie or play a violent video game as "HYPOCRITES WHO ARE ENABLING VIOLENCE CULTURE!!!!!111one HOW DARE YOU WATCH THE GODFATHER OR LORD OF THE RINGS!!!!111 YOU ARE ENABLING MURDER!!!!"

Sounds to me like some people want to paint progressives as fun-hating extremists.

[nadinbrzezinski]

15. Well some of us played violent games

And took care of the wounded, just not the pixel wounded...

This is the first assault from the usual quarters. The NRA has gone radio silent...but the kiddies have not.

[KittyWampus]

111. Well then some of you are hypocrites and can't accept that basic fact. And need to lie

about what others are saying.

Obviously on some level you know what I've said is correct and can't deal with it. Thus you need to lie and misrepresent what I've said.

[backscatter712]

112. Geez, go smoke some weed or something. You've really gone unhinged. n/t

[nadinbrzezinski]

114. What you are saying is smoke and mirrors.

That's the problem. And you are calling me hypocrite, nice personal attack right there.

[KittyWampus]

110. Who is the zealot? The OP who is lying about what others are saying? Those who try to dictate the

conversation only revolve around what THEY deem correct?

And it's hilarious that you are also lying as is the OP. I NEVER MENTIONED THE GODFATHER.

I never mentioned passing laws making any games illegal.

[nadinbrzezinski]

119. No I am not lying, nice personal attack

Just pointing out that redirecting the conversation to the popular boogeyman happens every time. So now you are down to personal attacks.

I am as serious as a heart attack, organize a boycott if you think that will solve all our problems.

[mr_liberal]

14. I dont know, Im hearing it from some liberals too...

... like Axelrod. And if Axelrod is talking about it then you can be pretty sure that Obama is going to too.

It seems like the Obama Admin is going to sort sacrifice a little free expression and "Hollywood" to get some more gun laws. More "compromise" I guess. We'll chip a way a little of the 1st Amend if you will the 2nd.

[white_wolf]

25. One is the foundation of any democracy the other a relic.

Freedom of Speech and expression is the cornerstone of any democracy. The "right" to own guns is not. Many democracies that are as free if not more free than the U.S. get by just fine without guns.

[nadinbrzezinski]

26. Well, he will have a lot of us staying home then

[Confusious]

2. Study: No Link Between Violent Video Games, Youth Aggression ...

http://psychcentral.com/news/2010/12/15/study-no-link-between-violent-video-games-youth-aggression/21824.html

[backscatter712]

22. Most of what I've dug up from the academic journals says the same thing.

Well, there's Grossman, but I'm not seeing anything that confirms his theses.

I'd have to do more digging...

[OneMoreDemocrat]

4. Guns are evil...

and everything happens in a vacuum so we shouldn't open the dialogue to all posible conversation.

Got it.

[nadinbrzezinski]

7. Going after the fringe culture is the easy answer

Instead of looking yourself in the mirror.

[Odin2005]

5. BINGO!

[JaneyVee]

6. Shoots 6 bullets per second. Ridiculous & unnecessary.

[nadinbrzezinski]

9. It is an stripped down (in the selector switch)

Infantry riffle...it spits the same ammo, at the same muzzle velocity, as what the troops are issued in the field.

[justanidea]

16. And that ammo is less powerful than what is used to hunt deer.

[nadinbrzezinski]

18. Well, it sucks to hunt deer.

But overpowered to hunt coyotes or raccoons.

[theKed]

37. And people nt

[99Forever]

103. To say nothing of kindergardners. n/t

[backscatter712]

113. It's overkill for varmint hunting, but not powerful enough for deer...

Hmmm, I wonder what animal 5.56mm ammo is designed for?

Something bigger than a raccoon, but smaller than a deer. Humans seem to fit that category.

After all, the AR-15 and its ammo were originally designed for war.

[nadinbrzezinski]

118. It actually followed the German model of smaller rounds

Until the end of wwIi it was believed firefights happened at longer ranges. Well, they mostly happen within 400-600 feet...well within optimal range and the ammo is lighter.

[backscatter712]

121. Very true. n/t

[hack89]

150. 5.56mm ammo is derived from a civilian round, the .222 Remington

it is a popular varmint round.

[JaneyVee]

20. Absolutely no need for those to be in civilian hands.

[RomneyLies]

8. I thought he used 30 round magazines

Still too big for civilians.

[nadinbrzezinski]

11. Nope, big Eddie just showed it

I take it new information.

[PoliticAverse]

29. The Police have repeatedly indicated multiple 30-round magazines were used. n/t

[nadinbrzezinski]

31. Send an EMail to MSNBC

Right fracking now.

The police have also been releasing the information a little at a bit.

The Bushmaster was not actively used either, until it was.

[BeyondGeography]

127. 90-round clips...My God

[Kurska]

10. No it was those damned Beatles, it is the devils music!

That is how stupid the digital book burners are going to look in 20 years.

[nadinbrzezinski]

13. It was comics before that!

[RomneyLies]

19. And D&D after.

Anything but the tools of massacre, guns.

[nadinbrzezinski]

23. Don't forget Battltech and Vampire the Masquerade.

[white_wolf]

27. I've always wanted to try Vampire the Masquerade

alas my only nerdy friends play DND. Still, the Vampire computer games were really good.

[nadinbrzezinski]

32. I played a game of werewolf early on

Good game, but you need a hell of a good GM.

[Hayabusa]

38. Kinda ironic considering your name

although you have played the computer games, so... I love World of Darkness.

[white_wolf]

40. The name actually comes from a different videogame.

The Witcher series of games and novels. The main character, Geralt, was nicknamed the White Wolf.

[Hayabusa]

43. I thought it may have been something like that

though I've never played the Witcher series.

[white_wolf]

44. Go buy it now! The first one is like 10$ on Steam.

It's a great RPG. The choices actually matter and the consequences are far enough apart that you can't simply reload if you don't like the outcome.

[Hayabusa]

46. You haven't seen the way I save...

[klook]

102. "Bewitched" and "I Dream of Jeannie" also...

Not to mention Harry Potter.

[backscatter712]

30. I've been playing D&D on and off for a couple of decades...

and nobody's every taught me real spells!

http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0046/0046_01.ASP

[white_wolf]

39. Want to hear something very ironic.

My friend who introduced me to DND is actually a Wiccan, so she could teach me actual spells if she wanted. I just found that kind of funny after seeing your post.

[backscatter712]

75. I want to learn the Mind Bondage spell! n/t

[WhoIsNumberNone]

104. And heavy metal music

Ozzy Osbourne and Judas Priest were out to kill our kids back in the 80s

[jberryhill]

52. With new technology, you can't detect the backwards satanic messages

[DBoon]

64. Blame it on the Stones!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=rZt5VUKsz34

[Johonny]

17. I blame the metric system

[nadinbrzezinski]

21. Damn, better hide my mom's old car...computer is set in metric right now.

[patrice]

24. No matter how evil video games are, that would have mattered a whole lot less without a 90 round

magazine and an assault weapon.

[Honeycombe8]

60. That is true. Unless he made a bomb, like McVeigh did. nt

[99Forever]

105. But he didn't make a bomb, like McVeigh did.

He used a completely legal, semi-automatic rifle and high capacity magazines to massacre babies.

Enough with the stupid attempts at deflection.

[Politicalboi]

28. Don't forget about his meds too

It's not the guns fault he stopped taking them.

[Fumesucker]

33. A perfectly predictable result of taking God out of video games n/t

[white_wolf]

41. God just makes videogames worse.

If you don't believe me you clearly have never seen the Angry Video Game Nerd's rant about the NES Bible Game series.

[DisgustipatedinCA]

82. You have a point there

I really hadn't thought about it, but these days, you rarely see prayer break rooms in video games. And I don't mean some kind of liberal pause-and-pray-on-your-own scheme, but an integral part of any first person shooter, strategy game, or sports game. Put prayer back in the source code!

[Jeff In Milwaukee]

34. It's all Mario's fault! No, wait! It's all Luigi's fault!

Canadian kids play the same video games without shooting up the local shopping mall. Go figure.

[white_wolf]

42. No it's Link and Zelda's fault!

Link encourages violence and Zelda sets a horrible example for young women. Oh, and don't get me started on Peach.

[Honeycombe8]

35. BOTH magazines and VIOLENT video games should be looked at and considered.

That seems reasonable.

Anything and everything that contributes to the cause of mass killings should be considered.

[backscatter712]

45. The scientists have looked at video games and violence.

There's no conclusive evidence of a correlation.

[Honeycombe8]

48. All the studies I found....all of them...found a link...a predictor of future violent behavior in

children. Doesn't mean they become killers or anything. But none of the studies found no link.

But this is what I mean. It should be looked at, studied, and considered. A discussion should be had and not dismissed outright.

I'm talking about violent video games, not movies.

Some countries have banned the bloodier video games. Australia did, along with assault weapons, and fixed their mass killings problem.

There are apparently just some of the more violent ones that seem to warrant the link....Mortal Kombat and some others.

Doesn't mean they should be banned. But to fix a problem, I think everything should be at least looked at. If the goal is to fix the problem and not just get rid of assault weapons (which is a worthy goal in and of itself). But to fix this particular problem requires looking at both causation and method, and at all angles.

[white_wolf]

50. Others have posted studies that contradicted yours.

So who do we listen to?

[Honeycombe8]

57. That's what I mean. It should be studied and looked at, since many studies have concluded

there is a link.

Now there's a recent one that concludes there is not.

Someone needs to look at all that and decided if there is, or is not, a link. That's all I mean. I'm not out to ban Mortal Kombat. But I'm thinking, to address a serious problem, whether it's mass killings or global warming or the recession, all possible things need to be looked at, when trying to fix it. Then arrive at a conclusion on how best to try to fix it.

But to leave out one thing or another because of politics is not the right thing to do. Whether it's gun control or violent video games.

[nadinbrzezinski]

51. Mortal Kombat is...once again...rated M

Seventeen and older. The little effect found, when found...and not all studies have found links...have found it up to fourteen

I am math challenge but fourteen is not seventeen. Perhaps I missed something in school.

Possible, after all I learned metric before I learned imperial, in Spanish no less.

[Honeycombe8]

54. Anyone can play it, with parents permission, another poster said. nt

[white_wolf]

55. Of course they can and they should be able to.

If the parents feel that their kids are mature enough to play an M-rated game then so be it. I am firmly opposed to censorship in all it's forms.

[Honeycombe8]

62. Oh, come on. You know that a lot of parents don't have a clue what kind of video game their

kid is playing.

[nadinbrzezinski]

69. So you expect the industry rep to go the the home.

The ESRB is posted. Many a times clerks tell parents a game is not meant for kids and they still buy it. Yes, seen that...more than once.

I know, I know...let's ban them, all of them!!! Instead of asking that parents do...I don't know, this thing called parenting.

[white_wolf]

74. Then they should do some research. It isn't hard.

If they aren't sure about an M rated game they can google it in 5 minutes and find out enough to make an informed decision. Hell, the clerks at Gamestop will usually tell them it isn't for kids. They need to do some research and parenting and not rely on the government to censor anything that might be bad for their children.

[jeff47]

133. The game makers put a standard label on the box explaining what's in that video game

It explicitly says "Mature". And then it explains why: "Blood", "Gore", "Realistic Violence". It's a bulleted list right next to the big "M" rating.

If the parent can't be bothered to look at the box for 2 seconds, child services needs to take the kids away.

[nadinbrzezinski]

58. A kid can't buy it

An adult has to buy it.

Do you let your kids drink at home? I mean under 21.

[Honeycombe8]

68. Okay, you're getting into silliness.

Kids can get any video game they want. You know how it is. Uncle Scotty, who has a cache of weapons and wants his nephew to grow up to be a man, lets Jeff borrow his Mortal Kombat. Jeff takes it over to Billy's house, and they play it there for hours every week, for months on end.

[white_wolf]

76. I suppose that could happen...

but its' just as likely that the uncle will give his nephew liquor as Mortal Kombat.

[nadinbrzezinski]

80. I am not getting into silliness

You see my sister does this thing called parenting. You might have heard of it. If she says her kids can't go watch rise of the guardians, they are Jewish, it means no Rise of the Guardians. If she says no mortal Kombat, and dad would would say hell no well before my sister would, it means no.

So, it's you who is getting silly now.

You expect society at large to raise and protect kids. Yes, it takes a village, but a few things are still well, this thing called parenting.

In fact, IMO my nephews watch way too much TV, consume way too much popular culture and their parents have gotten them some toys I particularly don't like.

Do they play video games? Yes, are any of them M? Not just no, but hell no. All are rated for kids, as it should be...

[Union Scribe]

71. I don't get the virulent objection you're being met with.

I totally agree we need to look at this aspect of our violence-drenched culture.

I have limited experience with newer games, mostly through my nephew. What I'm seeing isn't just violence on screen, there's violence in the interactions between players on networks like x-box live. Every other sentence these kids say to each other is calling others "f*gs" and racial slurs and mindless threats often involving family members and sexual assault. The hope that the next generation will be more progressive than us seems to unravel when I hear that garbage. I dunno, that's just my 2 cents.

[lunasun]

101. +1 same thought here

[rebecca_herman]

78. Video games aren't the problem

I had an older brother so I played some of his violent computer games at only around 8-10 years old, they were probably rated Mature. My parents apparently thought it was ok because the game I played the most involved killing Nazis. I believe it was one of the Wolfenstein games. Nazis = bad, so violent game based on killing them = good I guess? /shrug In any case, I am one of the least violent people in existence (unless there's a spider in my house) and would probably accidentally shoot myself in the foot if I had a gun. For someone who is ALREADY violent and disturbed perhaps video games can make it worse (along with a multitude of other things that could also probably make it worse) but they are not going to turn a non disturbed person into a mass murderer.

[nadinbrzezinski]

81. Wolfestein 3D

You welcome.

[rebecca_herman]

90. Yep, that's it!

Looked it up and I remember the Robo Hitler boss. Wow, the graphics do look dated now.

[nadinbrzezinski]

91. They are

The updated game has good graphics but sucks as a game.

I was so excited...that lasted an hour. Never touched it again.

Could load the original on the IPad, but rarely the nephews get a hand on mine instead of dad's.

[whatchamacallit]

142. +1

[nadinbrzezinski]

146. Oh I forgot to note

Wolfestein 3D, while revolutionary at the time, was not rated. The system came in 1998.

[dkf]

36. It's a toxic combination that goes bad with certain individuals.

Each situation on its own isn't the determinant. People can own guns without turning into mass murderers, they can have a mental health conditions and be perfectly non threatening, they can be young and male and highly intelligent and have no problems...

But take a younger male with an impressive IQ with a psychotic condition, who has no friends and who isolates himself playing violent video games for hours on end and you just may have a ticking bomb.

[Warren DeMontague]

87. Show me the case where someone killed 20 people rapidly with a copy of Halo 4, and maybe you'll have

a point.

We can play endless speculative games about what "might have" "made" this person do this- and let's be real, we know that's the point, here- however, one thing we KNOW is that he USED high-powered GUNS to KILL lots of people. THAT is the common denominator in all these mass shootings, that no one can make go away- the guns that were USED.

Beyond that, it's like Dan White and the fucking Twinkie. It's not the games, it's not the twinkies, it's not anything- IT'S THE FUCKING ASSAULT WEPAONS, AND THEY NEED TO GO. THEY NEED TO BE OUTLAWED. TAKEN AWAY. FOR GOOD.

[Shadowflash]

153. You got that right

There is no evidence for any of this and it's strictly speculation.

It's the same as going into a prison and asking all the rapists how many of them drank milk as a kid and then, when everybody admits to it, concluding that drinking milk as a kid causes you to be a rapist.

Same exact thing going on here. What you have to consider is how many people drank milk and DIDN'T become a rapist. And how many people have played video games and HAVEN'T become mass murderers.

[Lone_Star_Dem]

47. Yep. We should burn them all right along with every copy of The Catcher in the Rye.

And every other piece of controversial literature. Let's not forget, all rock & roll, comic books & television sets. Oh, and we're going to have to censor what the news reports. We're not capable as a society to manage seeing all the violence taking place in the world.

Have I missed anything?


On edit: And get off my lawn!!!

[white_wolf]

49. Nearly every piece of classic literature.

All of Homer's works, the works of Virgil, Beowulf, Shakespeare, Tolkien and so on.

[Lone_Star_Dem]

56. Exactly.

A short list of some classics often sought to be banned:

1. The Great Gatsby, by F. Scott Fitzgerald
2. The Catcher in the Rye, by J.D. Salinger
3. The Grapes of Wrath, by John Steinbeck
4. To Kill a Mockingbird, by Harper Lee
5. The Color Purple, by Alice Walker
6. Ulysses, by James Joyce
7. Beloved, by Toni Morrison
8. The Lord of the Flies, by William Golding
9. 1984, by George Orwell

They've all been blamed at one time or another with leading society astray.

[Honeycombe8]

70. I missed those studies showing a link between violent behavior and Beowulf. Where are

those studies?

[nadinbrzezinski]

123. Because we all know the society of Beowulf was paradise

With zero violence.

And the studies you love to cite are critiqued by other scientists for their less than good methodology.

I guess the rest of the scientific community is in the conspiracy.

Anyway, the industry has a rating system. So when a parent buys that M rated game the parent should know better.

So you also blame the studios when parents take young kids to NC-17 movies? Seen that too.

[zappaman]

124. Once again, you do not know what you are talking about.

"So you also blame the studios when parents take young kids to NC-17 movies? Seen that too."

You haven't seen that because kids are not allowed in the one or two NC 17 movies released every year even if they are accompanied by an adult.

Do you even know what an NC17 is? It's basically the same as R except parents can't bring their under 17 kids to see it.

You should stick to things you know, like being in "enough shoot outs to fill nightmares."

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=1996780

[jeff47]

135. You really think the minimum-wage-earning kid taking tickets is gonna stop a parent who demands

to take their kid in to the movie? You think the manager of theaters will turn away paying customers?

There's no law backing up movie ratings. The movie theater will suffer no legal consequences if they let kids in NC-17 movies.

So while the people running the theater may protest, if the parent demands the kid see the movie, the kid sees the movie.

[nadinbrzezinski]

53. Theater, all of Shakespeare

I mean a son killing a father!!!! PROTECT THE CHILDREN!!!

[Lone_Star_Dem]

59. I'm pretty sure that's when society began to devolve.

Frankly, I think it's all Shakespeare's fault.

[nadinbrzezinski]

65. Has to be

He planned well. The bum...

[white_wolf]

61. Oh we need to ban oedipus Rex.

Violence and sex...

[nadinbrzezinski]

63. Yup

And the Song of Songs.

[backscatter712]

79. and Ezekiel!

Specifically, Ezekiel 23:20!

[nadinbrzezinski]

84. You made me use the Google

What kind of lust is that!!!! Get me a knife111

[white_wolf]

86. I just Googled it.

If that wasn't from the Bible it would be banned reading for children and yet it's read in countless homes around the country every night and in churches of every Sunday.

[nadinbrzezinski]

89. Yup.

And the Song of Songs has lust, sex, murder, and a few others.

For the record, it's a wonderful piece of lyrical poetry, but it is soft porn.

[theKed]

66. Hamlet is just riddled with bad influences

Fratricide, supernatural beings demanding murder, a young girl committing suicide...it's got it all

And don't even get me started on Macbeth!

Where's my gasoline?

[Honeycombe8]

72. Okay, now you're getting silly. Is there a Shakespeare Mortal Kombat video game?

I didn't know that. They wear funny outfits when they kill people? Or they kill the people with the funny outfits?

[nadinbrzezinski]

83. Whoosh!!!!

[Livluvgrow]

67. oh

we need to speak to the magazine as well as the increased levels of violence in our media as well as an increase in poverty and cuts in funding to education etc. You cant shield one thing just because it is your thing. Many aspects of our society need to be put under a microscope to try to minimize violence in this country. It is out of hand.

[LeftofU]

73. "If it bleeds it leads"

That's the sales pitch.

[nadinbrzezinski]

88. Have you ever heard of not putting the cart before the horse?

This is the caboose before the engine on a long cargo train.

[rhett o rick]

77. We need to speak of a number of things Nadin. Yes guns and clips for sure, but also other things. nm

[nadinbrzezinski]

85. Well before this you are talking mental health

And the violence that we glorify in media that games derive from. The problem is the facile answer is to blame the geeks. It's like comics. Video games also include things like oh minecraft. The construction and creativity...make it stop...now! (A game I would have zero issues with the nephews playing even with the occasional zombie, pig and cow).

[rhett o rick]

94. We as a society are horrible at taking care of the mentally ill.

That needs to change. And trying to keep the gun-porn out of the hands of children isnt blaming geeks. We keep the sex-porn out of their hands pretty well, why not gun-porn.

[nadinbrzezinski]

95. Because mine craft has zero guns (ok the laser mining laser could be seen as one)

And the games you are thinking about are rated mature, 17 and older, and if the Kidd-os have them, blame the adult. No, grand theft auto is not meant for twelve year olds, I don't care what people think, and the industry agrees. It is rated M.

I have seen this with my own eyes...

Sir this is rated M, not appropriate for a thirteen year old. (After parent asked what M means).

Parent still gets it, ''cause you know, it's only a game." Also, most of the gaming market is increasingly focused on adults. The average age of gamers is not, unlike common believe, 14, but 36.

That is why.

The industry has already done the responsible thing, it has a good rating system. It's like blaming the movie industry for parents taking young kids to adult movies.

The ESRB is easy as pie to find, and better to use it to consume this media like you consume movies. After all, this media is a tool for storytelling. But in many ways blame the parents in this case.

As I said, it's the easy answer, and sadly one that has almost zero science to it. The few studies, and there are very few, that have found any kind of link...are regularly critiqued, not by gamers, by scientists, for lousy methodology.

The people pushing the games are bad have found exactly one murder that might even be related to gaming... I don't know about you, but 1 out of the 34,000 for that year hardly qualifies.

Gets worst, except for Columbine, they played the tabletop game Battletech, (they used mall models of giant walking robots, dice and paper maps) for the most part, none of the people going on hunting sprees, this is what they are, have played any of these games. Hell, the guy in Aurora did not even read comic books.

So we go crazy and we destroy gaming and make it illegal (forget about the first amendment for a moment) who is going to get blame next time? What is the next not understood hobby we'll blame instead of actually dealing with the multiplicity of issues that are at the heart of this?

You know, given we attacked Iraq after 911 and did not finish the hard slough at Tora Bora...won't shock me. After all, as a society we like the "easy" answers that make us feel good, instead of the real answers that are actually hard, and chiefly...will require money.

[KittyWampus]

109. VERY few DU'ers have even mentioned banning video games. Your entire thread is bullshit.

You want to control the conversation. And you are lying to try and do that.

[nadinbrzezinski]

115. I love personal attacks in the morning instead of facts.

When you resort to personal attacks, I don't alert by the way, you have lost much ground in this discussion. Time to take a deep breath and back away.

So am I lying when I say the average age of players is not kids? Those are stats, not lies.

Am I lying when I say the industry has a rating system? What? I dreamt the ESRB?

You really will continue with the personal attacks right? Like a kid? Goodie.

[Kalidurga]

92. It's funny that people seem to think violence didn't happen before video games or movies or comics

or television or movable type printing presses. It seems that the video games make society more violent crowd has overlooked something. Many violent killers do not play video games. Many murders are committed on a daily basis with or without mostly without video games involved. Every gamer I know is a liberal I don't know what the national break down is, but I wouldn't be surprised if there are a higher percentage of gamers in the blue states. There are a higher percentage of deaths due to gun violence in the south, I would need proof that there are more gamers in the more violent states than the less violent blue states. I would also like to see a gamer/gun ownership correlation. None of the gamers I know own a gun or plan to own a gun.

[nadinbrzezinski]

93. I know.

But we did this with paper and pencil games and comics.

[Johonny]

96. Remember

most people were not alive before TV, movies, comic books or even video games. Young people today lived in a world of cell phones and have no idea what the world was like before them. The GOP talks of the magic time of Ronald Reagan but young voters today have no clue what the world was like under Reagan or the cold war. The same thing about the GOP and there love of the magic period before unions or affirmative action... this talk works because people have no reference to those times. The sad thing is future generations will be born into a world of climate change and will not understand that the climate they experience is something new and unusual.

[Egalitarian Thug]

97. It was those damned Sumerians! n/t

[Kalidurga]

107. Well they were one of the first civilizations to have an urban center...

then they developed writing which led to comic books which led to video games....

[Egalitarian Thug]

131. First thing written after the Code was a lurid and violent tale of the forbidden

love between a Princess and the Captain of the Guard.

[Kalidurga]

132. I didn't know that...

but I can't say that I am shocked.

[randome]

98. Do you think society would be better off with LESS glorified violence instead of MORE?

Agreement of that is NOT saying that video games caused any mass killings.

[jeff47]

137. It wouldn't make a difference.

Media reflects society. It doesn't make society.

[randome]

140. I didn't say it MAKES society.

I am not saying that any one thing is responsible for mass killings. It's never that simple. It's a combination of things and one of those things is the glorification of violence.

Movie makers and game makers push the envelope. They heavily advertise. They have an affect on society.

If we want to lessen that affect, we need to admit we have a problem.

We have a problem with guns. With violence. With drugs. With the lack of mental health resources.

All these things should be on the table in a discussion. Instead, I see every group mentioned as defensive and trying to protect their turf.

No one is going to take away the guns and no one is going to take away the games.

But we need to recognize that we do ourselves no favor when we allow these things to proliferate without introspection.

[jeff47]

143. Your theory runs into a large problem

Violent crime has been steadily declining over the last 40 years. Violence in media has been steadily increasing over the last 40 years.

If violence in media had an effect, how come violent crime keeps going down while violent media keeps going up?

We have a problem with guns and mental health care. Those are what caused this tragedy. Riling up the troops to march on Silicon Valley means they aren't working towards better mental health care or gun control. And we're gonna need all the help we can get for effective gun control legislation, and to reverse the mental health disaster caused by Reagan. Because we're going to have to keep them upset yet organized until the 2014 elections - there's no way the Republican house will do anything on either subject.

While raging against violence in media may feel good, those efforts should be directed towards something that actually does good. That's why gamers are objecting to your call to arms.

[randome]

144. What call to arms?

No one is going to take away anyone's precious games. Introspection is needed here. Not defensive posturing and finger-pointing at 'those other guys'.

If you want a correlation, here's one: video games routinely portray mass killings and mass killings are on the rise.

They are NOT solely to blame for this. But they have an effect. Look at any research you want. It desensitizes people to violence.

That added to the easy availability to guns and lack of mental health resources can easily lead to a mass killing.

Why not approach all four suspect causes at the same time? The alternative is to wait for final proof. Just like tobacco companies insisted on waiting for proof. Just like climate change deniers insist on proof.

Why can't someone who represents the gaming industry step up and say maybe, just maybe, we could have a better effect on each other if we toned down the violence a bit.

If pretend violence is something that thrills you, I would have you question yourself why that is so.

[jeff47]

148. Why did I know you'd only respond to the last 3 words of my post?

If you want a correlation, here's one: video games routinely portray mass killings and mass killings are on the rise.

Again, your theory is that violent media is creating real-world violence. Which means you can't create mass killings while not creating 'non-mass killings' and assaults. You can't create one without also creating the other.

But they have an effect. Look at any research you want.

I have. The research says it has no effect, except for a couple studies with methodology problems.

It desensitizes people to violence.

Except it doesn't beyond about 5 minutes. According to research.

Why not approach all four suspect causes at the same time?

Well, you could read what I already wrote in my previous post.

Since you've already failed to do that once, I guess I'll try explaining it again.

Fixing our mental health care system and our gun laws isn't going to happen until at least 2015. Because the Republican House will block it. We need people to think this is still a major problem in 2014 so that they will vote to fix it. If your efforts result in ineffective fixes to mass media, people will declare the problem solved, and they will vote on other issues in 2014. Resulting in the same gun and mental health issues leading to the next massacre. At which point you will demand less violence in media again.

Why can't someone who represents the gaming industry step up and say maybe, just maybe, we could have a better effect on each other if we toned down the violence a bit.

Because studies have shown that such violence has no effect. So they tone it down, it has no effect. So you will demand they tone it down more, they comply and it still has no effect. And so on and so on until we have the Hayes code for games and still have no effect.

If pretend violence is something that thrills you, I would have you question yourself why that is so.

And if you actually knew what happens in these games, you'd realize they are actually anti-violence.

[randome]

149. Not 'creating'. Having an effect.

The guy in Colorado who said he was the Joker and shot up people at the theater no doubt came up with that all on his own.

When did the gaming industry 'tone it down'? For how long?

And I am not 'demanding' anything. I'm saying it's time for introspection. There are dedicated gun owners here on DU who have done this. Why can't people in the gaming industry do the same?

[jeff47]

151. The guy in Colorado didn't play games nor read the comic books.

As I said about 12 times in my previous post, what you propose will not have an effect on these tragedies other than making you feel better. Until the next one.

When did the gaming industry 'tone it down'? For how long?

Please tell me you aren't this dumb. My post is not at all confusing, so I'm left with few options as to why you are asking this.

Since research has show no effect, toning down violence will have no effect. Other than to make people think the problem is solved so that they won't bother with the difficult task of fixing our gun laws and mental health system.

And I am not 'demanding' anything. I'm saying it's time for introspection.

You contradicted yourself in back-to-back sentences. Impressive.

It's still a demand even when you don't use the word "demand".

There are dedicated gun owners here on DU who have done this. Why can't people in the gaming industry do the same?

Have you demanded the cooking group take some time for introspection? Perhaps their practice of feeding flesh to children is having an effect on those children. Hey, don't knock that moronic theory - it has as much research backing it up.

But to dispense with the snark, it's because we're aware of what's actually in these games, and are aware of the research showing no correlation.

We're also aware that the average gamer is 36 years old. So we are also aware that "Mature" games are being created for adults to buy - we have way more money to spend on games than a 12-year-old. We're also aware that the game industry already puts labels on the boxes with fantastic detail about what's inside that "M" rated game, so that non-gaming parents know what their kid is buying.

Meanwhile, those of us old enough to handle such topics, and our kids that are old enough to handle such topics, get to experience excellent stories that aren't told in any other media. Like global warming is bad. And we were really shitty to the Native Americans. And a million what-if's in science fiction.

Video games are the only mass media that is currently producing anything remotely close to the depth of story you find in great literature. You are seeking to end that because your experience is short clips of gore. You are arguing that it's "time for introspection" on Hamlet because you read the paragraph where Hamlet stabs his uncle.

[randome]

154. That's...almost funny. 'Time for introspection' is the same as 'demanding it'.

The way you phrased it, it sounded like you were referring to the gaming industry had already tried 'toning it down'. My bad.

Again, you say I'm trying to 'end' video games. Why do you keep going on about that? No one is trying to take your games away from you.

Reading Hamlet versus an immersive reality experience is a ridiculous comparison. Thinking that games are some kind of art form is even more ridiculous. They're GAMES. That's all they are. And yes, they can have an affect on already mentally unbalanced individuals BECAUSE they are immersive reality experiences.

The games you posit as 'good' games are in the minority. That's not what we see advertised 24/7. It's the shoot-em-up variety that get the most attention and you know it.

[jeff47]

155. When you say "it's time for introspection" you are demanding "introspection".

There is no other logical meaning for that.

The way you phrased it, it sounded like you were referring to the gaming industry had already tried 'toning it down'.

So you somehow missed all the words like "if".

Seriously, why should we listen to you when you keep utterly failing to understand what you're reading? Especially for the basis of your statements is studies you claim to have read. Over and over again in your responses to me you have demonstrated you are utterly failing to understand what you are reading. Why should we not believe that happens when you read other things? Why should we believe your summaries of the studies you cite are accurate when you can't accurately summarize a simple forum post?

Thinking that games are some kind of art form is even more ridiculous. They're GAMES. That's all they are

You don't play them. You have no idea what you're talking about. You wouldn't listen to someone's opinion on Hamlet if they never read it, would you?

The games you posit as 'good' games are in the minority. That's not what we see advertised 24/7. It's the shoot-em-up variety that get the most attention and you know it.

And Hamlet is just a stab-em-up play. There's nothing else in it. It's just stabby stabby stabby. Oh, you mean if someone actually reads it they'll find out there's more to the story? Bah! It must just be nothing but killing.

Here's an OP I made a few days ago where I briefly describe what's going on in four of those "shoot-em-up" games. There is much more going on than you think.

[Dash87]

99. What stinks is, we all know what they're doing.

They do it after every gun tragedy.

[nadinbrzezinski]

100. And it is the same exact people.

[MicaelS]

106. Nope, speak of them.

As a Gun Owner, I'll support stronger Gun Control. I'll support magazine capacity limits. I'll support keeping electronic records of all gun transactions at the Federal Level. I demand opening the NICS to everyone and requiring every firearms transaction, to go through it. No exceptions. I'll go along with one gun a month. I might even support licensing of anyone who want to own a gun.

But if you think I'm going to let the debate be limited just to Guns, you had better think again.

If we have a "Gun Culture" or "Violent Culture" it does not exist in a vacuum. It is not simply fault of Guns. It is the fault of:

Hollywood, and every writer, producer, director, actor, publicist, studio, network executive, etc. who ever worked on a violent film, or TV program in which guns were used, misused, or glorified in any fashion, all the way back to the Great Train Robbery.

Every person who ever bought a ticket to one of these films, or watched these TV shows and thus encouraged Hollywood to make more of them. Especially the modern filmmakers that started making movies and TV programs with “ultraviolence” since the 1960s onward.

Every newspaper, news magazine, radio or TV news station whether local, network, cable or satellite that runs “if it bleeds is leads” coverage. And every person who watched them, and thus encouraged them to run more.

Every writer or artist of any fiction in any printed form in which guns were used, misused, or glorified in any fashion, and anyone who bought their work and thus encouraged to them to make more.

The video game industry and every writer, producer, director, actor, publicist, studio, executive, etc. who ever worked on a violent video game in which guns were used, misused, or glorified in any fashion. Everyone who sold bought or played one of these games, and thus encouraged to them to make more.

Any buyer or seller of illegal substances. Going back to Alcohol and Drug Prohibition in the early 20th Century, which thus encouraged small criminals to become big criminals, and misuse guns to make money.

If the printed or spoken words can hurt, then so can images. Still or moving, real or imagined.

If printed or spoken words can be Hate Speech, then so can images. Still or moving, real or imagined.

Hollywood and the video game industry is going to have to accept part of the blame, and be held accountable. If they don't start putting self-imposed limits on their product, then society will compel them.

Then we need to repeal HIPAA and establish a National Database of those diagnosed as Mentally Ill, so those people can be cross referenced by, and added to NICS so they can't get access to guns. And make it lot easier for those diagnosed as Mentally Ill to be involuntarily committed, and held as needed. And fund National Mental Health Care as needed.

And yes, some video games are evil. The Grand Theft Auto series comes to mind.

[nadinbrzezinski]

116. They are there

Before you even speak of the mirror to a very violent society, we first need to speak off thinks like white trade, poverty, mental health and social programs. They are at the heart of the violence. Going after popular culture is needed, that conversation needs to happen, but well after we actually deal with what leads to that violence.

I hope this makes more sense.

[MicaelS]

120. You need to re-read, and edit your post.

Because I'm having a hard time reading it.

I have no idea what you mean by "poverty white trade".

And I assume you meant Serpico, and yes I know it was based on the real life experiences of NYPD Detective Frank Serpico.

[zappaman]

122. More word salad?

WTF is "Persico"?
Is this anything to do with you wanting to ban assault "riffles"?

Seriously, you should learn how to make a coherent argument if you want any of us to believe you are an expert on...well, on EVERYTHING.

[MicaelS]

125. Still don't understand what you mean by "white trade". n/t

[nadinbrzezinski]

126. Young women kidnapped and forced into the sex trade

I am glad actually you don't know what it means. I am talking of the true underbelly of the country.

[randome]

134. Anything but your personal turf, right?

It's guns.
It's the glorification of violence.
It's drugs.
It's lack of resources for the mentally ill.

It takes a village to raise a child.
It also takes a village to screw one up.

[MicaelS]

139. Never heard it expressed that way.

The (very) old fashioned term I have always heard was "white slavery".

[nadinbrzezinski]

145. We all learn something

One of the reasons is that it is also including men now.

IMHO the terms are not adequate since it's not just whites. Sex slavery is far more appropriate.

[MicaelS]

147. Agreed, thank you. n/t

[jeff47]

141. Media reflects society, it doesn't create society.

All that violence will still be there if all movies were Sound of Music remakes, all TV was Leave It to Beaver and all games were Pong.

If your thesis was correct, violent crime would be WAAAAY up now. It isn't. Violent crime has been steadily declining since about 1980. Violence in TV, movies and video games has gone up during that same time period. If media violence caused real-world violence, then we could not have had that steady 4-decade long decline.

You tackle violence in the real world by addressing the causes of that violence. Such as poverty and mental illness.

[nadinbrzezinski]

117. I love personal attacks.

[randome]

138. No, you don't. You just love to feel superior.

[zappaman]

152. !

[backscatter712]

128. Aaaaaand... Jack Thompson slithers out of his hiding place to accuse the game industry of murder...

http://www.gamepolitics.com/2012/12/17/jack-thompson-eca-maybe-now-youll-get-it

http://kotaku.com/jack-thompson/

That shithead should take his rightful place with the Westboro Baptists if he shows his disbarred face in Connecticut to ambulance-chase and funeral-stalk.

[nadinbrzezinski]

129. Ah yes...grand theft auto, NPR interview

And fifteen year old.

[HipChick]

130. I'm stockpiling now as we speak...

X-Box,PS3 and Wii...

[nadinbrzezinski]

136. I got an old ps-2.

It still works.