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werknotgoin2takeit

(172 posts)
Tue Dec 18, 2012, 03:10 AM Dec 2012

This is my first post & its a doozy

This post sprung from a thread that I read earlier that concerned the slaughter on Friday. It was all about nature vs nurture and I wanted to post this there but once I got off work it was gone and I could not find it again. The reason I don't let it lie is that this incident will give me no peace. I keep seeing the faces of those beautiful children. Even though I got the mail after 10 posts saying I could start a thread and my first post should be an introduction I have chosen to ignore that. I have been a lurker member for years and the salmonenchantedevening incident brought me forth. Now, I feel blessed because the shooting of those babies has wounded me more than I want to handle alone and DU is here. I am hurting more than I ever thought possible for people I have never met. The children's sweet faces haunt me day and night and I just wanted to share. Below is what I wrote in response to the original post that now I cannot find. There is no one right now that understands, even my husband doesn't want to hear it and said tonight that he still wants our gun laws to say the same. I have no support (except my brother and mum who are far away) so I ask it of all of you, a faceless contingent of people who all seem to be so kind. Please don't be too hard on my ramblings... I am sharing a lot of myself.

I am finding this discussion fascinating and as I love to read and learn, I will pick up some books by Alice Miller from whence I can make my own decisions. But I have to agree with many posters that although nurture can be a big part of what makes a person a psychopath, nature is equally if not more important. I personally am of the opinion that people like this are born without a soul (that is the word I use; I know that there are many that don't believe we have such. I am not religious but I do believe in the soul) and it is a birth defect like being born blind or without a limb. I am by no means an expert but I can bring my own experiences to bear.

I was born to a young mother who had to marry a man she didn’t love because he got her pregnant with my brother and that is what you did then. She came from a violent and dysfunctional home wracked with extreme poverty, fighting and alcohol abuse with here 5 sisters and 1 brother, some of the stories she told me of growing up would curl your hair. My dad on the other hand, seemed to come from the perfect all American family, although they were Canadian. There were 3 well-behaved kids of parents who adored each other and a mom who stayed home while dad worked hard to earn the money for their solidly middle class life. My dad’s biggest trauma from that time was losing his beloved father to a heart attack when he was still in high school.

After I was born, mom started to have an affair with my father’s sister’s husband, a classic case of looking desperately for love in all the wrong places. You can imagine the horrible strife that was caused when that came out and both families were torn asunder. I was spared the worst because I was only a year old when my parents divorced but my brother was 3 and I think he carries that with him still even if only subconsciously. My brother often got into trouble as a child and he was cruel to me many times, while I was the good one never trying to rock the boat. Additionally, I was molested repeatedly by a boyfriend of one of my Aunt’s when I was 8 years old which I can still remember clearly to this day right down to his smell and that was 35 years ago. My father loved us but was distant and during the 70s my mom had to work many jobs to support us and became a bit of a partier so my brother and I spent a lot of time being raised by our Aunts who, happily, never let us forget that we were loved. Shuttling back and forth between parents was hard on us also. My mother had her own struggles with substance abuse (actually both parents are alcoholics) and she had many boyfriends plus, we were constantly moving. My brother and I had very little stability growing up. As we got older, my brother got involved in drugs, dropped out of school and was repeatedly arrested. For me, I waited into my 20s for the problems to present themselves and alcohol was a big part of that.

It wasn’t until I was a teenager that my brother and I started to become friends. Now, he is a diehard liberal, kind and soft spoken, but he still has many issues. He can be cruel at times to those he loves and he has never married or had children even though he wants to badly. He just can’t seem to make it work with anybody long term. I, on the other hand married a kind man who I respect but am not in love with and decided not to have kids as well. My brother and I both feel that we have lost the loves of our lives. This is my background and I went through many bouts where I thought that I was a shallow person who could not feel things deeply but I just think I shielded myself; we have both also dealt with deep wells of anger. I am gaining more empathy and peace as I get older and the state of the world today causes me so much physical and mental pain at times, that I have to step back from it. I work to make my world better in small ways so I deliver food to home-bound elderly in my city and have many shelter pets that I love as children.

Enough with the digression but once I started typing I couldn’t seem to stop. Back to the subject at hand, my mother even with all her trauma is one of the sweetest kindest people that you could ever be lucky enough to meet. She would do anything for anybody and I love her dearly. All of my mother’s sisters are the same way while her one brother is evil. He once brought over a bunch of his friends to molest his youngest sister when they were kids. My dad is a right-wing prejudiced rigid thinking conservative. He is the angriest bitterest person I know. If nurture was all there was to it that should be the opposite and all my Aunts would be like my one twisted Uncle. My brother and I would surely be more selfish and cruel people then we are. Example, my brother is a handy man. He fell off a ladder recently onto broken glass and nearly cut off his arm. His first thought was to the woman whose house he was working on and that he was getting blood everywhere. Nurture can make a naturally empathetic person even more so but people who have it have it no matter how they are raised. Those that don’t, don’t no matter how much you may love them. I’m so sorry for the length of this and I don’t know if it makes sense and it’s all over the place but it’s my 2 cents.

21 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight: NoneDon't highlight anything 5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
This is my first post & its a doozy (Original Post) werknotgoin2takeit Dec 2012 OP
Welcome to DU. LeftofU Dec 2012 #1
Thank you werknotgoin2takeit Dec 2012 #18
Thank you for a very interesting OP. I think you are right sometimes the nicest sabrina 1 Dec 2012 #2
Thank you werknotgoin2takeit Dec 2012 #11
Welcome to DU! pacalo Dec 2012 #3
I'm glad to be here werknotgoin2takeit Dec 2012 #12
I too have seen contradictions KT2000 Dec 2012 #4
What an inspiring story werknotgoin2takeit Dec 2012 #13
Welcome to DU, werknot. Thanks for telling your compelling story... Surya Gayatri Dec 2012 #5
I've read a book called Resilient Adults tavalon Dec 2012 #7
Well, that ship sailed long ago for me, but I still wonder Surya Gayatri Dec 2012 #8
Yeah, I actually only had a stepson tavalon Dec 2012 #10
Sometimes it best werknotgoin2takeit Dec 2012 #16
(((Hugs)))! Surya Gayatri Dec 2012 #21
I didn't see the original thread tavalon Dec 2012 #6
Hugs are my favorite werknotgoin2takeit Dec 2012 #17
Thank you for your openness. djean111 Dec 2012 #9
I call them 'toxic people' Viva_La_Revolution Dec 2012 #14
I understand where you are coming from werknotgoin2takeit Dec 2012 #19
Welcome to DU! Fumesucker Dec 2012 #15
Thanks! werknotgoin2takeit Dec 2012 #20

sabrina 1

(62,325 posts)
2. Thank you for a very interesting OP. I think you are right sometimes the nicest
Tue Dec 18, 2012, 03:27 AM
Dec 2012

people come from the most awful homes. I don't think there are any hard rules as to what makes a person what they are.

Welcome to DU, I am glad you are here!

werknotgoin2takeit

(172 posts)
11. Thank you
Tue Dec 18, 2012, 01:28 PM
Dec 2012

For your kind words. Sometimes it's better to get things out instead of letting them fester. I appreciate you taking the time to read my story.

pacalo

(24,721 posts)
3. Welcome to DU!
Tue Dec 18, 2012, 03:51 AM
Dec 2012

I'm impressed that you seem to have chosen to be positive-minded, rather than letting those hardships poison your perspective on life. You seem very strong.

I'm glad you found DU!



werknotgoin2takeit

(172 posts)
12. I'm glad to be here
Tue Dec 18, 2012, 01:32 PM
Dec 2012

Thank you for the welcome. I don't feel strong but I try to do what I can. I think that every time we do something good it ripples.

KT2000

(20,585 posts)
4. I too have seen contradictions
Tue Dec 18, 2012, 04:32 AM
Dec 2012

in the case of nurture. One of my favorite friends was raised with cruelty and abuse but when she relates some of those stories she always points out the positive - how it taught her to be a better person. You could not meet a more empathetic and kind person. Her son though, started his life with learning disabilities that progressed (largely due to illnesses and injuries) over the years into paranoid schizophrenia. Despite her best efforts, love and support he ended up a lost soul before he died.
She watched some of the coverage and it triggered memories of the many challenges of her son's life.
Newtown was certainly a national tragedy.

I think you are like my friend - able to find perspective and choose a better way to live.

werknotgoin2takeit

(172 posts)
13. What an inspiring story
Tue Dec 18, 2012, 01:36 PM
Dec 2012

I feel blessed that you equate me with what sounds like a truly wonderful person. My mother is like that too. After years of trouble and strife she has finally found peace. She does community theater and volunteers at a food bank. She is grateful for her life hard as it was because she now loves the person she's become.

 

Surya Gayatri

(15,445 posts)
5. Welcome to DU, werknot. Thanks for telling your compelling story...
Tue Dec 18, 2012, 05:23 AM
Dec 2012

I can relate to the "no children" choice. Both my brother (1 yr. younger than me) and I made the conscious choice not to have children.

We were both wise enough to know that we risked repeating the cycle of abuse we'd lived through while growing up.

tavalon

(27,985 posts)
7. I've read a book called Resilient Adults
Tue Dec 18, 2012, 05:57 AM
Dec 2012

and it had some interesting stats in it. Anyway, less than half of us who were tortured as children go on to be abusive parents. Now, granted, I had to learn all of my parenting skills from books because I had no real life roll models but I was a pretty good parent.

 

Surya Gayatri

(15,445 posts)
8. Well, that ship sailed long ago for me, but I still wonder
Tue Dec 18, 2012, 06:16 AM
Dec 2012

sometimes what sort of parent I would've made.

tavalon

(27,985 posts)
10. Yeah, I actually only had a stepson
Tue Dec 18, 2012, 08:12 AM
Dec 2012

But I did pretty well until, oh, three weeks ago and even then, that had nothing to do with my parenting skills.

werknotgoin2takeit

(172 posts)
16. Sometimes it best
Tue Dec 18, 2012, 01:40 PM
Dec 2012

Not to have children. I think now that those who believe the would be terrible parents would probably make the best ones. We would be conscious of our choices and strive not to make the same mistakes. But I have my best friends daughter to love on when I need to hug a child. Thank you for the welcome.

tavalon

(27,985 posts)
6. I didn't see the original thread
Tue Dec 18, 2012, 05:54 AM
Dec 2012

It's pretty clear that you, as many of us, have been traumatized. I don't know if you have insurance or IEP, but there is nothing wrong with choosing to go to therapy for trauma, even if it seems like it has nothing to do with you. Surface trauma has a way of stirring up old trauma and I think that may be happening to you. I only base that on how long your post was. Once trauma has truly been healed, the personal trauma story becomes very short - the longer it is, the more the trauma still has you in it's grip.

Now, my advice is worth exactly what you just paid for it. My hugs, however, are priceless. Take care of yourself. You've had a hell of a rough life and this is a rough week for all of us.

werknotgoin2takeit

(172 posts)
17. Hugs are my favorite
Tue Dec 18, 2012, 01:47 PM
Dec 2012

I appreciate your kind words. My childhood wasn't all bad. I have many good memories. But I think you are right, this incident has uncovered something. I think I see myself as a child in all their smiling faces and am devastated that they will never get to grow up and experience life both good and bad. We are the poorer for never getting to see the people they would have become.

 

djean111

(14,255 posts)
9. Thank you for your openness.
Tue Dec 18, 2012, 06:40 AM
Dec 2012

Reminds me of my life, with similar results.
Regarding the nature versus nurture thing - I believe some people feel better if they can pin blame on other people - parents especially. Maybe they are frightened at the thought that bad things can happen, beyond anyone's control, so feel comforted that they can pass judgement - if only she had been a better mother! - and then move on, smugly confident that THEY would never be that inept as a parent. In fact, they just go on to say what wonderful parents they are.

As I get older, the list of things that make me avoid certain people as soul-suckers (cannot come up with a better word, too early!) has blaming parents for all of a person's problems on it, along with generalizing people by age or gender or geographical location and proceeding to act or spew on those generalizations. Those people, for me, are not worth talking with.
Evidently these people do not believe in free will at all. Or the internet. Or fail to notice they are not in lockstep with everyone else their own age or neighborhood or whatever.
Yeah, that's judgmental too - but I judge the person by their ideas and actions, not their age or street address or what their grown children do.
Again, thank you!

werknotgoin2takeit

(172 posts)
19. I understand where you are coming from
Tue Dec 18, 2012, 02:16 PM
Dec 2012

I too don't like to spend time with people like that. They are easy to spot. Unfortunately my dad is one and I have to spend time with him. It hurts me that though I love him its a chore to be around him. Thank you for your story and the welcome.

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