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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsBearing arms to fend of a tyrannic government...
We've all heard this particular argument in defense of the 2nd amendment:
People should be allowed to own arms, so they won't be defenseless when their government becomes tyrannic and turns to oppression.
Let's leave aside the fact that the government has electronic and long-range means to be oppressive that no gun can counter.
Let's leave aside the fact that a government does not turn into a tyranny over night.
How would this "tyranny" be defined? A bill you don't like?
Who is "government"? A legally elected official?
And how would you use your arms to stand up against the oppression? Present them in showcases as a stark reminder of your disapproval?
No.
You would kill people because you don't like, what particular politicians are doing.
You would kill to force them (and the general population) to follow policies you approve of instead.
I don't know what you think about this, but to me this sounds like the definition of terrorism.
Loudly
(2,436 posts)Our Appomattox covenant is that armed rebellion is never legitimate in this country.
riqster
(13,986 posts)... Many of us were convinced that Nixon was going to impose martial law. Thankfully, it did not happen.
Had we shot the Guardsmen, we would not have been defending against tyranny - we would have killed a bunch of people who were being used by Jim Rhodes to make him look big and bad, so he could get a cushy job in D.C.
I expect that most other situations in the past century would be viewed in a similar light.
KansDem
(28,498 posts)When Nixon conspired with South Vietnam to abandon the peace talks LBJ was pursuing to end the Vietnam War, resulting in a war that lasted years longer and took many more American lives--a traitorous act: Where were the guns?
When Reagan conspired with Iran to hold onto the American hostages until after the 1980 elections, promising American military hardware in exchange for cash to send to Ollie North's death squads in Central America--a traitorous act: Where were the guns?
When the Supreme Court conspired to intervene in the 2000 elections by stopping the vote counting in Florida thereby giving the election to the loser Bush: Where were the guns?
When Bush sat and did nothing while we were attacked by his family friends and business partners, the Saudis: Where were the guns?
When Bush first said he saw the first attack on TV, then said it was reported to him, obviously lying: Where were the guns?
When Bush said he instructed his staff to respond to the attack even though the video shows no communication with CoS Andrew Card: Where were the guns?
When Bush and Cheney lied about Iraq and WMDs and invaded a country that had nothing to do with 9/11: Where were the guns?
When the Supreme Court granted "personhood" to corporations: Where were the guns?
When it was revealed that the US was engaging in torture: Where were the guns?
When Nancy Pelosi announced any investigation of Bush and Cheney for war crimes was "off the table:" Where were the guns?
When Wall Street and Big Bankers pulled swindles that crashed the world economy, then got Congress to give them money to bail them out: Where were the guns?
When American taxpayers financed huge CEO bonuses of corrupt bankers and Wall Street brokers: Where were the guns?
When the justice department refused to investigate and indict HSBC's money laundering of $880,000,000 of drug cartel and terrorist money: Where were the guns?
When voter suppression was undertaken by Republicans: Where were the guns?
And, when Social Security, which has nothing to do with the deficit, is "on the table" during deficit-reduction "compromising:" Where are the guns?
The NRA and its ilk are avid supporters of the Second Amendment, but only when it favors their political positions...
Bucky
(54,035 posts)Like your assault rifle is gonna help you deal with unfair tax audits or hired Blackwater thugs eavesdropping on your phone calls.
jody
(26,624 posts)militia in Article I, Section 8, clauses 15 & 16.
SCOTUS acknowledged in Heller both opinion and dissent that individuals have a natural, inherent, inalienable/unalienable right to keep and bear arms for self-defense.
The main difference was the opinion said that right was in the Second Amendment and the dissent disagreed but recognized the right in the extract below.
The dissent by recognizing the right but asserting it was not an enumerated right protected by the Second Amendment meant the right was an unenumerated right protected by the Ninth Amendment.
Spider Jerusalem
(21,786 posts)it has nothing whatever to do with the individual right to self-defence. This is a historically revisionist right-wing interpretation that relies upon both ignoring the historical context and the contingent phrasing of "well-regulated militia". Guaranteeing the right to arms as part of "well-regulated" militias in the several states was a compromise and a check on the power of the Federal government at a time when the Jeffersonian anti-Federalists were a powerful faction distrustful of centralised authority. (Although it is interesting and instructive to see that right-wing judicial activism based on a highly questionable application of "Constitutional originalism" is popular among some here.)
jody
(26,624 posts)used to it.
Spider Jerusalem
(21,786 posts)Which is likely if the court is less conservative in coming years with the likely retirement of some members and appointment of others by a Democratic president. For almost 70 years the controlling decision was US v Miller, 1939, which endorsed the collective right view; there's not any reason to think that this may not be the case again, especially if the composition of the court changes. And no, the Second Amendment isn't "about individual self-defence"; see "well-regulated militia". See also: http://www.tnr.com/article/books/defense-looseness and http://www.nytimes.com/2008/10/21/washington/21guns.html?_r=2&hp&oref=slogin& (Scalia's legal reasoning has been criticised from the right as well as the left).
jody
(26,624 posts)inalienable/unalienable rights including the right to keep and bear arms for self-defense.
If the four dissenting justices had one more vote, their dissents would have been the basis for a decision you want but that decision would simply mean the right to keep and bear arms for self defense is an unenumerated right protected by the Ninth Amendment.
Spider Jerusalem
(21,786 posts)Steven cited those, but did not find them to be "inherent or inalienable" (and neither do the specific things cited). Stevens only cites them to highlight the omission of a "right to bear arms" absent the purpose of a "well-regulated militia". I'd suggest you bother actually reading the dissents in the case, since you clearly haven't.
jody
(26,624 posts)SCOTUS also said "Neither is it in any manner dependent upon that instrument for its existence."
The meaning is clear, a right exists with or without our Constitution or the PA & VT constitutions.
You can try to reinterpret that any way you wish but it always comes out the same, words on paper do not create a right and words on paper do not destroy a right.
As inalienable/unalienable rights, the citizens of PA & VT could not have given any of their declared rights away when they ratified our Constitution.
RKBA is indisputably an inalienable/unalienable right.
Spider Jerusalem
(21,786 posts)thanks for the right wing talking points, though. Scalia the conservative judicial activist, imposing a novel interpretation widely criticised by legal scholars, said so. Which doesn't mean it won't be re-examined by a future court.
jody
(26,624 posts)Spider Jerusalem
(21,786 posts)The Second Amendment has not been incorporated via the Fourteenth Amendment. All existing state restrictions on gun ownership have been upheld, despite challenges. The decision in DC v Heller is at present applicable only to persons residing under Federal and not state jurisdiction (which means in Washington DC).
http://randazza.wordpress.com/2008/08/14/heller-provides-no-protection-of-individual-rights/
jody
(26,624 posts)Marinedem
(373 posts)You could ask the Syrians. Or Libyans.
DetlefK
(16,423 posts)In neither case the government was/is legitimized by a fair election.
In both cases the dictatorship had unfolded long ago.
If G.W.Bush had installed a family-member as his "rightfully-elected" successor, there would have been civil war, 2nd amendment or not.
You don't need a legitimization to fight the illegitimate. The above interpretation of the 2nd amendment just sows distrust and provides a quasi-legal excuse for armed insurrection whenever you feel like.
Not moral excuse.
Quasi-legal excuse.
Xithras
(16,191 posts)Personally, I've never bought into the "gotta defend ourselves against the government angle", but just for the sake of discussion:
Let's say that, in 2014, the Republicans take the Senate. In 2016 they take the White House. It's a purely Republican government.
In 2017 we receive unquestionable proof that the Republican Party colluded with Diebold to steal the elections, and that they shouldn't have control of either. Think it can't happen? There are MANY people right here on this board who suspect that elections have ALREADY been influenced to change outcomes in some races. It's idiotic to claim that it could never happen here, or that there aren't people in our government who wouldn't do this in a heartbeat if they thought they could get away with it.
Would fighting back be legitimate THEN?
DetlefK
(16,423 posts)The problem with the argument I'm complaining about is, that it transforms the fight against oppression from a moral duty to a legal duty.
G.W.Bush's win in Florida was legal, because the court said so. That still doesn't make it right.
Tiller was murdered, based on the moral that he were a murderer. That still doesn't make it legal.
If you let laws decide for you what's moral and what's not, you give up your freedom to decide so yourself. The "brake-in-case-of-tyranny"-argument does exactly that. These people figure that they have a legal case to use armed insurrection if those ill-defined limits they set up are violated.
Who wastes time finding a moral reason to do something when you already have a legal reason to do something?
You are upholding law and order as it was intentioned!
Whereas, if you have the strongest of moral reasons to do something, you still have to consider the legal ramifications.
The fight against tyranny shouldn't be a matter of what the book says.
It should be a matter of what your heart, your conscience and your ethics say.
Romulox
(25,960 posts)Ganja Ninja
(15,953 posts)That becomes reason #1 when a Republican is in office.