General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsWe are in a recession
Blacrocks Larry Fink was on CNBC on Friday, and said we already are in a recession.
I know Wall Street is pretty unpopular with many here, and having spent my life in corporate finance I would agree that Wall Street is littered with pretentious con men, liars, mercenaries, and worst of all, finance bros. It also employs a ton of people and leans socially liberal, and is our strongest ally against a descent into autocracy. Trump cant bend financial markets to his will, because the money can just leave our country, which appears to be happening.
https://thehill.com/business/5245180-us-may-already-be-in-recession-blackrock-ceo/amp/
Norrrm
(4,158 posts)Trump::: "Only the weak will fail." --- 'It's your fault, peasant.'
https://www.bing.com/search?q=trump%20only%20the%20weak%20will%20perish&qs=n&form=QBRE&sp=-1&lq=0&pq=trump%20only%20the%20weak%20will%20perish&sc=0-31&sk=&cvid=BDFB3D37EA7C4C1F956DD8FC8A1B6AF9&ghsh=0&ghacc=0&ghpl=
Fiendish Thingy
(22,265 posts)It takes two consecutive quarters of negative GDP to call a recession, although this administration will certainly fiddle with the numbers, so other stats not dependent on an honest government will likely have to be used.
WarGamer
(18,259 posts)Biden had two consecutive negative quarters and they didn't call it a recession because UE numbers stayed good...
Fiendish Thingy
(22,265 posts)I seem to recall the numbers being revised (as they often are) and thats why no recession was called.
In any case 2Qs of neg GDP are foundational components of a recession, whatever else is included in the assessment.
WarGamer
(18,259 posts)Q1 and Q2/22
https://www.npr.org/2022/07/28/1113649843/gdp-2q-economy-2022-recession-two-quarters
U.S. economy just had a 2nd quarter of negative growth. Is it in a recession?
The U.S. economy shrank in the last three months by 0.9%.
This is the second consecutive quarter where the economy has contracted. In the first quarter, GDP, or gross domestic product, decreased at an annual rate of 1.6%.
While two consecutive quarters of negative growth is often considered a recession, it's not an official definition. A nonprofit, non-partisan organization called the National Bureau of Economic Research determines when the U.S. economy is in a recession. An NBER committee made up of eight economists makes that determination and many factors go into that calculation.
MichMan
(16,736 posts)Wall Street has said goodbye and good riddance to 2022, a year most investors would rather forget.All three major averages were down on Friday, clocking their worst year since 2008 and ended a three-year winning streak.
The Dow fell 73 points, or 0.2% Friday, the last trading day of the year. In 2022, the Dow fell about 9%.
A year of losses for the S&P 500. The top index of US stocks hit an all-time high in January 2022. It was downhill from there. The S&P 500 lost 19.4% over the past 12 months, notching its worst year since 2008.
The Nasdaq Composite Index was down 0.1% Friday, close to its lowest level since July 2020. The tech-heavy index has been battered this year, falling 33%.
https://www.cnn.com/2022/12/30/investing/dow-stock-market-2022/index.html
WSHazel
(639 posts)A duck is a duck. China plays with its GDP numbers and the market adjusts for it.
unblock
(56,005 posts)NBER is usually cautious in calling recessions, and they're often over or nearly so before they're officially declared. But I'm pretty sure they'll date it as having started in the second half of q1.
Fiendish Thingy
(22,265 posts)But it wont be short or shallow.
unblock
(56,005 posts)We've had administrations harm our economy due to ignorance or ineptness, but never due to knowing and willful indifference (at best) to the damage.
Worse, Donnie seems determined to override all objections in order to keep the pain going, one way or another.
I think we're headed for a major contraction until he leaves office, one way or another.
travelingthrulife
(4,599 posts)Do you suppose this was the agreement between the dictators of Russia and China and Demented Donnie?
unblock
(56,005 posts)They tell him what to do and he obeys.
He's got to be the most easily manipulated national leader ever.
Skittles
(169,865 posts)your kind of expertise is highly welcome these days here on DU
I tread carefully on a lot of topics because I do not have a lot of expertise on many areas of policy, but I do know a bit about markets. I believe the markets will decide the future of our country over the next 6 months or so.
Skittles
(169,865 posts)I cannot imagine what it's like even for the pros managing retirement accounts right now, what a clusterf*** Trump.2 is
WSHazel
(639 posts)And we are already in a recession in my industry.
Skittles
(169,865 posts)Igel
(37,408 posts)"Mike, somebody ran over our dog just outside our driveway."
"Sorry, Sue, I was pretty soused last night. I might have killed your dog but don't remember."
Versus,
"Sorry, Sue, I was pretty soused last night, but remember clearly. I killed you dog."
One states a possibility; the other states a fact.
I
WSHazel
(639 posts)he really means we may be in a Depression. Between Fink and Dalio's public statements this weekend, Wall Street is blaring its sirens.
roamer65
(37,823 posts)The best is yet to come.
hatrack
(64,357 posts)The exciting stuff comes later - by the end of the summer, I'd guesstimate.
WSHazel
(639 posts)That was a great line.
roamer65
(37,823 posts)Then the shitshow will be ON.
onethatcares
(16,967 posts)retired carpenter here that doesn't speak financese
onenote
(46,009 posts)The generally accepted definition is two successive quarters of negative GDP. GDP during the fourth quarter of 2024 -- President Biden's last quarter -- grew more slowly than the previous quarter but still grew by 2.4%. And while data for the quarter ending March 2025 hasn't been released, it is unlikely to to show negative GDP.
WSHazel
(639 posts)2 straight quarters of negative growth. There is definitely a Summer 2008 vibe in the economy and the market, so I agree with Fink but we will find out soon enough. If we trust the data.
But the markets are off to a great start this morning, so maybe Dalio, Fink, Dimon and Solomon (Goldmans CEO) are all wrong with their recent negative comments.
Maybe Trumponomics will turn 250 years of economic theory and analysis on its side, and we will find out that an authoritarian regime run by a volatile, vindictive narcissist is the path to economic nirvana.
unblock
(56,005 posts)the "two quarters of negative growth" definition is more what the media latches on to because it's simple, but obviously leaves much to be desired. first and foremost, the arbitrary cutoff dates of the quarters can mask major changes in economic activity. in this case, we very likely contracted in march, but january's activity (including a big build-up of inventories in advance of anticipated tariffs) may have been enough to make the first quarter as a whole positive, even if contraction started in march or even mid-to-late february.
here's NBER's take, from their q&a:
--
https://www.nber.org/research/business-cycle-dating/business-cycle-dating-procedure-frequently-asked-questions
Q: What is a recession? What is an expansion?
A: The NBER's traditional definition of a recession is that it is a significant decline in economic activity that is spread across the economy and that lasts more than a few months. The committee's view is that while each of the three criteriadepth, diffusion, and durationneeds to be met individually to some degree, extreme conditions revealed by one criterion may partially offset weaker indications from another. For example, in the case of the February 2020 peak in economic activity, we concluded that the drop in activity had been so great and so widely diffused throughout the economy that the downturn should be classified as a recession even if it proved to be quite brief. The committee subsequently determined that the trough occurred two months after the peak, in April 2020. An expansion is a period when the economy is not in a recession. Expansion is the normal state of the economy; most recessions are brief. However, the time that it takes for the economy to return to its previous peak level of activity may be quite extended.
--
the covid contractions is a great example. it was the sharpest contraction america has ever had. it would be ridiculous to ignore it simply because it didn't last 6 months or 2 quarters.
Happy Hoosier
(9,431 posts)So I want it to do reasonably well.
And yeah, I expect we're in a recession already.
Emile
(40,906 posts)flamingdem
(40,812 posts)and even Cramer has called the tariffs idiotic.
WSHazel
(639 posts)Not anymore.
I watch Bloomberg anyway. Much more reasonable tone. I like Jonathan Ferro and Tom Keene.
flamingdem
(40,812 posts)more than most!