I did the right thing today for home protection, I purchased a

[crazyjoe]

Last edited Wed Dec 19, 2012, 08:59 PM - Edit history (1)

12 gauge pump shotgun to protect me and mine. There is a storm coming, and I want to be ready. These psycho gun nuts who think it's necessary to own a high powered rifle that shoots 500 yards for home protection scare me.
If you find it necessary to shoot at someone who just busted into your home, and you miss, a bullet from a AK could end up in your neighbors head down the street.
There is no need for assault weapons to be available to the general public, absolutely none.
Ban them now!!

[Agnosticsherbet]

1. Big gun corporations love you...

n/t

[RomneyLies]

2. Perfect weapon for home protection.

I've got no problem with a shotgun for home defense. Probably the best choice you could make.

[Honeycombe8]

7. This is probably not the time....

or the place to discuss the legal and quite sane use of a gun. I have a revolver, though, for personal defense....I live alone in a big city and have had several close calls in my home. And yes, I know how to shoot it, although I'm no expert.

I also have dogs and a deadbolt (deadbolts aren't very helpful), but one of my dogs seems to scare people when she ferociously barks at them at the picture window. I think they think she's a pit bull because of her coloring and her chest is muscular, but she's not.....she has little short legs (which can't be seen from the picture window), and is a mix of Jack Russell Terrier and either a lab or shepherd. She's medium sized. But people sure do back off when she goes to the picture window and barks.

Dogs are excellent intruder repellants. As are outside lights. I also have security system signs on every side of the house. Ah, life in the big city.

[RomneyLies]

14. The best part is the shot stays in the walls n/t

[Honeycombe8]

17. I changed...

I changed my post a bit to talk less about the shotgun.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

72. Actually it doesn't

and that can be a real problem indoors

[FarCenter]

22. I'm not for outdoor lighting. All those carbon emissions and fairly ineffective

The lights should be out and the police furnished with night vision equipment.

Anybody moving around after dark would be real obvious to them.

[Honeycombe8]

24. You're joking, right? nt

[FarCenter]

58. No, when the lights were out after Sandy there was very little movement of people or crime at night.

Outdoor lighting may be needed in business districts or high crime areas. Lighting in semi-rural and lower density residential areas is mostly counterproductive.

Roadside infrared cameras with licenseplate readers should also be deployed.

[galileoreloaded]

84. you are my new hero and bff. seriously.

[snooper2]

105. Tell that to my truck that was broken into twice

before light was installed in back of garage

[Honeycombe8]

158. It's been shown that outdoor lighting is a deterrent to crime. Criminals like the dark.

As for police, I know firsthand that the police cannot get to an urgent situation quickly enough. You have to be prepared to act on your own. I will keep my lights, and my dogs, and my locked doors.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

25. Actually it is an inferior choice for many reasons

Semi auto handguns are far and away the best choice.

[bluestate10]

54. A shotgun has wide area coverage. It is perfect in my view because you are sure to hit an

intruder.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

69. Not inside a house it is does not

The rule of thumb for cylinder bore guns is that the shot will spread at an average of one inch per yard. At your 30 feet (10 yards) the pattern will be an average of about 10 or 12 inches in diameter.

" target="_blank"> shows the pattern with 00 buckshot at 3 yards and 7 yards from an 18inch cylinder barrel. #9 will be maybe 10-15% more, however patterning the particular gun is the only way to really know how it will perform.

The reality is that pattern is little more the bore diameter at close in household ranges. It is effectively a 74 caliber rifle with a low speed pre-fragmented round.

[intaglio]

89. Depends how it's choked, doesn't it?

You do know what a choke is, you being edymercated and everything?

Nicely prejudiced selection of fact.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

90. Not really, not that close up

The picture (which is an internet find) was a cylinder barrel with 00 buckshot. Birdshot would spread faster but not that much at household ranges. It could get no better than a cylinder (in terms of pattern spread) which was the Bluestate10 was saying was much wider.

Not sure what you consider prejudiced facts...

[intaglio]

128. Using as an example an unchoked scatter to belittle a persons coice of weapon

That is selective prejudice, especially as they are attempting to find a less lethal method of defense. At the ranges found in a property a shotgun gives plenty of defense without the necessity to purchase a mass murderers weapon.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

129. The context was a claim that shotgun pattern is wide enough at household ranges to insure hitting

the intruder, made by Bluestate10 (http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022025170#post54). That is not really true. At household ranges the groups are still quite tight, even with the most expansive barrel options

Shotguns are from from less lethal unless you go to rubber balls or something similar. A single 3" 00 buck shell has the equivalent of 9 38 Special bullets and at household ranges, just a lethal

There is no evidence in the subthread that Bluestate10 was the interested in finding a less lethal means of self defense. In other parts of the thread DollarBillHines was talking about follow up shots (http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022025170#post47)

[GreenStormCloud]

151. Shotguns are MAX lethal, NOT less lethal...

...at inside the house distances. You are very poorly informed about what guns will and won't do. A person hit in the torso with a shotgun at close range has a very poor chance of survival. If you use buckshot it is like shooting him nine times with a .38, all at once. If you use bird shot you turn part of his body and organs into hamburger.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

167. At close enough ranges you get unburned powder and the wad in the wound

Infection and sepsis will almost always follow.

[GreenStormCloud]

187. Inside the house that is almost certain. N/T

[Mel Content]

76. It's the BEST choice for a very simple reason...

just the distinctive sound of a round being "pumped" into the chamber is enough to send most sensible intruders packing. quickly.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

77. If they are close enough to hear it, you are in a bad tactical situation

I agree the sound can be effective, but when you make yourself known, if the weapon is not in Condition 0 (loaded/cocked/safety off) with your finger on the trigger, you are making a serious mistake.

[bamacrat]

199. If someone is trying to get in your front door and you load a round in a pump shotgun..

it neutralizes the situation quickly. If they are standing infront of you without an obstacle, then you are right. Too late to chamber a round to intimidate.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

206. Assuming of course that they can hear things

Depending on the state of the intruder and the kind of door it may not matter.

[crazyjoe]

131. I don't like semi auto handguns for home protection mainly because

after you fire the weapon, the next bullet is chambered and the gun is cocked. In a panic or high stress situation you could easily fire the gun a second time by mistake, or drop it and have the gun go off.
When at the range, the proper way to fire a semi auto is to continue to shoot until the weapon is empty, anything else is not considered safe.
I stand by my initial choice, a pump shotgun is best for home defense, there is much less of a chance of gun firing accidentally.
Plus, as a side note, you can mount a flashlight on a shotgun.

[crazyjoe]

162. I don't think pumping 15 rounds into an intruder is going to look good at trial :-)

[WVMountaineers]

163. yeah...but it beats his story of you asking him to come in to help you move your TV at 3AM

and I don't expect anyone to get up after the first 3 but, then I don't expect to miss with the first 3....i know that's not a reasonable expectation

[ProgressiveProfessor]

170. Really depends on the circumstances...locking on the trigger is not unknown under stress

I have seen people who you thought would not have that problem do it and later get exonerated.

There is also an expectation by some that someone with training will shoot better and only shoot to wound.

While the Mozambique drill is the best way to insure the intruder will no longer be a threat, using it will get you questioned harder by the cops.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

175. No it is not

I think there is a pharmacist who learned that recently

[crazyjoe]

196. I don't agree with this statement......

"There is also an expectation by some that someone with training will shoot better and only shoot to wound."
Who is "some"?
All the training I've ever had (I've attended several weapon training programs over the years) has been you aim at center mass.
If you are going to point a gun at someone and pull the trigger, you have to have expectation that the person is going to be killed, otherwise put the gun down and grab a golf club or a bat.

[Hangingon]

202. Been to shooter training. No one ever said shoot to wound.

You are taught to shoot to end the threat. No warning shots. Shoot to center of body mass.

[crazyjoe]

204. I guess he's not a professor of weapons training :-)

[ProgressiveProfessor]

209. I teach firearms on the weekends

That there are stupid people with miss set expectations is a reality. Sometimes they make into law enforcement and juries.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

208. Quite right...

But questions, stupid ones to be sure, still get asked.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

207. I don't like it either...

"There is also an expectation by some that someone with training will shoot better and only shoot to wound."
Who is "some"?
Cops, prosecutors, some juries. If you have a CCW, and are involved in a shooting, the question will come up, espcially in the more repressive areas of the US. Its irrational, it sucks, but it does happen.

All the training I've ever had (I've attended several weapon training programs over the years) has been you aim at center mass.
That is what I teach too

If you are going to point a gun at someone and pull the trigger, you have to have expectation that the person is going to be killed, otherwise put the gun down and grab a golf club or a bat.
Never point your muzzle at that which you are unable to destroy

[ProgressiveProfessor]

159. To each their own, but the opinion is nearly universal among instructors for both beginners

and tactical shooters.

I have seen more shotguns dropped than handguns, especially those with pistol grip only stocks.

People should use what they feel comfortable with. If a shotgun works for you, then use it

[GreenStormCloud]

164. A shotgun can be an excellent choice, depends upon the situation.

If you can get behind your bed, cover the door and wait, while calling 911 on the cell, then a shotgun is the best. And that is the best tactic.

If you have to search the house (Bad idea, but maybe you have to.) then a handgun is better.

If you live in the country with the nearest neighbor a couple of miles away and need to see what is happening outside, (Very bad idea. You are safe in the house, but maybe you have to check it out.) then an AK type would be a good choice.

Flashlights can be mounted on handguns, along with lasers, in the same unit. You would be amazed at how bright they are. At inside the house distances they will cause an intruder to involuntarily blink his eyes.

Quality guns of modern design (1928 and later) won't go off when dropped.

[WVMountaineers]

155. Actually ANY firearm, in the hands of a person who knows it well and practices

is good for home defense.

All have their shortcomings and their advantages but, if you're just going to sit at the top of the stairs and not playing John Rambo, a shotgun is probably the best choice in a close quarters defense position.

A handgun is certainly more versatile in home defense but you really have to practice with it

[cbrer]

59. No such thing as perfect weapon

Shotgun useless in hostage situation. Depending on ammo it can go through walls too.

Weapons choice requires wisdom, thought, practice, and discretion. At a minimum.

[ManiacJoe]

80. All shotgun ammo goes through walls.

For shotguns, slugs would be the ammo of choice in a hostage situation. They can be accurate out to 100 yards in some cases. Easily accurate enough for in-house distances.

[Bake]

110. Nothing like the sound of a shotgun being pumped

to put the fear of God into a home intruder! Plus, you don't have to be terribly accurate. Just get close and let the scatter do the rest.

I know plenty of SANE folks who keep one by their beds.



Bake

[Jamastiene]

116. I have actually been looking for a high quality audio file of just that sound.

I wanted to put it in my homemade security alarm that I plan on building. If someone tries to open my door while the (currently in planning) alarm is active, that is what they would hear, along with a sound file of another guy saying, "Hang on, Butch. I have the AK-47." (or something similar to make the would be intruder think twice)

I have debated on whether to use Butch as the name or Bruiser. Butch is a common name where I live, while Bruiser is an uncommon nickname. The sound of a shotgun being pumped, I have already decided, would be the best sound file to use though.

[GreenStormCloud]

166. Shotguns don't scatter that much. You still have to aim them.

The shot column spread out about one inch for every yard. So at 21 feet (7 yards) it will cover a seven inch diameter circle. Have that gun pointed just a little bit to one side and you will miss completely.

[Bake]

169. True, true (unless you saw off the barrel)

But even if you miss, the intruder has sh*t his pants!



Bake

[Auntie Bush]

173. I got a dog! She won't let anyone in the house. Scares them off before they even get to the door.

[AlecBGreen]

185. me too!

a dog IMO is the best deterrent, especially a beast like mine dont tell anyone but shes a total softy. you are far more likely to be slobbered on than bit!

[renie408]

194. Yeah, we have several big dogs.

And two little dogs.

We are dog nuts. Somehow that seems so much better than being a gun nut.

[brucefan]

3. Your screen name

is very appropriate.

[NYC_SKP]

4. I caught total hell and am still being bullied and stalked for posting nearly the same thing.

In my case, I did it to challenge the decision of the admins to let gun talk out into the other boards.

I changed my mind and self deleted but am still being stalked and bothered.

You might want to repost in Outdoor Life or just delete this. A lot of members don't want to read this.

And if you don't, then I hope the membership is less, well, I hope you don't become the victim of too much tolerance, as it were.

....



..

[RegieRocker]

61. Expect nothing

else from these children.

[SomethingFishy]

132. Yeah.. you couldn't even fucking wait till the bodies were cold

and you call others children... Yeah that makes you a real man.

[RegieRocker]

136. Derp

[crazyjoe]

133. I thought I might catch some flack, I don't care. I feel if a person wants to keep

a gun in their home for protection, they should be able to. I just think a shotgun is best because the projectiles don't travel as far and there is much less chance of doing damage beyond what your aiming at.

[L0oniX]

190. DU is like being in school again with the insulting jocks.

[NCTraveler]

5. You are crazy joe.

If they are psycho gun nuts, doesn't that just make you a run of the mill gun nut?

[FarCenter]

6. The unmistakeable sound of a shell being chambered in a pump action is usually all you need

to send the potential assailant running away.

People should probably have it as a ringtone.

[Robb]

10. Do tell.

Rack the guns often, do you?

[ecstatic]

12. What about the sound of an alarm?

Wouldn't that send them running too?

[FarCenter]

15. Does an alarm kill?

[Robb]

19. Seriously though. Pumping that thing just exposes your position.

And advertises to anyone savvy enough to recognize the sound that you don't keep the weapon loaded.

[FarCenter]

21. It's loaded by the time he hears the sound.

And keeping a shell chambered is just stupid.

[Robb]

40. Why not just leave a quart of Hoppe's No. 9 on the porch?

[guardian]

212. That's a good one!

[Kaleva]

57. The speed of sound is pretty fast.

[DollarBillHines]

47. Yep, and you shoot while they are reacting.

If you can put them on the ground, the next shot really counts.

[Care Acutely]

111. Do you stroke yourself slowly during this fantasy of yours?

God help the hapless Alzheimer's sufferer or innocent kid who wanders into your Rambo warrior delusion.

[GreenStormCloud]

188. Breaking into his house isn't innocent.

An Alzheimer's patient won't be able to break in. The door will keep him out. If a teen breaks into a house, he has just become an adult. The resident is not required to risk his life to find out the age and intentions of an intruder. The mere fact of an intruder is enough to place the resident in deadly peril and he may defend himself with deadly force.

If they stay outside the door, call 911 and let the cops handle it.

[nadinbrzezinski]

18. The clambering is far more effective.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

28. The would be classified as a Defensive Gun Use

It would also rarely is ever be reported or tracked.

[Kaleva]

56. It also lets them know exactly where you are and that might not be good.

[Lurker Deluxe]

93. It does let them know.

My home is secure. My home is quiet. I am armed.

If you get in my house and I become alert to your presense, this is what you will hear. In order.

The chambering of a shotgun.

The phone, on speaker, of me telling 911 that there is someone in my home.

That is all happening on the other side of that bedroom door.

My bedroom is pitch black, there is a nightlight in the hall opposite of my bedroom door. You know exactly where I am, and I have no desire to shoot you, and will most likely be telling the 911 operator that.

If you decide to open that door that is not going to end well.

[Robb]

94. You sound like you just can't WAIT!!

[Lurker Deluxe]

97. What?

What part of "my home is secure", and "I have no desire to shoot anyone" makes it sound like I can't wait.

I know alot of people think that if someone intends to do you harm you should just roll over and take it ...

I am not one of those people. I will do everything in my power to make it so that confrontation does not happen, if it does happen it will be because that INTRUDER pushes it to that point.

[Robb]

98. And you'll be READY!!

[Lurker Deluxe]

104. Yes I will

I will be ready to defend myself if someone breaks into my home. You know what else??

I am ready for a hurricane, I have a generator, MREs, canned food and water ...

I am ready for injury in my home, I have a full first aid kit, know where the hospital is, have the phone number of friends/family memorized ...

I am ready for all sorts of things, it is generally considered being an adult. When we go camping/hunting/fishing I am known as "Mr. Prepared", someone forgets something, don't worry I got one you can use. I got that from my father, who was always one of the most well prepared people in all circumstances.

If you choose to be one of the people who is not prepared for events than you will be one of the people who is a victim if those events happen.

[crazyjoe]

134. Well put Lurker Deluxe. (cool name BTW) I got a bunch of nasty childish comments on this post,

but I choose, as you do, to be prepared for the worst. I have no desire to harm anyone, but it's my responsibility to protect my wife and children, at least until the police arrive, and nothing is going to stop me from doing that.
I think just having the gun will be enough to get someone to turn tail and run, but if not I am prepared to do whatever I have to to protect myself and my family.
A shotgun is the safest way for me to do that without jeopardizing my neighbors or anyone who might be in the area. IMHO

[Kaleva]

107. Sounds like you have a very good plan.

[HERVEPA]

8. Exactly what storm is coming?

[RomneyLies]

9. Draco

http://www.wunderground.com/blog/Buckey2745/comment.html?entrynum=385

We may have a problem with coyotes in my Chicago suburb if the temp drops enough for it to be snow instead of rain.

[hedgehog]

29. Illinois coyotes break into suburban homes?

Damn, the ones here in New York stay away from my free range hens if i just yell at them!

[RomneyLies]

30. Ever go to start the car in the morning and stare face to face with a coyote that's growling?

Not as bad during the summer months, which happened to me twice, but if there's six inches of snow on the ground and it's tougher for the coyote to find food, I don't want him getting any idea that I am unable to counteract.

[hedgehog]

32. Well, damn, are you sure it isn't a funny looking pit bull?

Seriously dude, call your County Health Department - there's something wrong with that beast (unless of course you are carrying a dead rabbit)

[hedgehog]

34. I was moderately concerned about the coyotes that share my woods because that's

where I walk my dogs. I carried a shillelagh a few times until I realized i'd been crossing paths with the critters all summer and only saw them once!

[hedgehog]

35. I've been discussing on the rural forum how to spook the coyotes out

of my chicken yard. Currently it's a toss up between paint balls and an air horn.

[DollarBillHines]

48. my problem is mountain lions

Give me coyotes, any time.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

74. As is mine

Coyotes and snakes are just bonuses

[ManiacJoe]

81. Coyotes are not just a rural problem.

I live in Seattle and had one trot through my yard two weeks ago. They seem to like the green belts and golf courses.

[Paulie]

92. I had a coyote trying to den build under my back deck

For 3 days I went outside and jumped on the deck. I check every few days now with the same procedure and no coyotes running into the woods anymore. Snow will be helpful with showing tracks.

Didn't think about convincing the neighbor to get chickens.... Coyote did eat one neighbor cat, so not that neighbor. Hhhmmmm.

[2naSalit]

127. Best way to discourage denning

is to urinate around it, preferably as soon as you notice it to give the mom time to find another location. Seriously, they recognize that type of "marking". Also you can just go mark the edges of "your" territory once in a while, it works for more than just coyotes... bears, lions... Works where I live. Select a tree (not right near the house!) about every fifty to a hundred feet along your perimeter (mark at about one to two feet off the ground) and you'll see a difference more often than not. Totally organic and naturally workable. May sound gross to some but a natural remedy sure beats any other.

[RomneyLies]

36. Not carrying a dead rabbit, but there are dozens of rabbits in the area

not to mention opossums, skunks, squirrels, ducks, geese, tons of various bird species, chipmunks, moles, groundhogs, and other various small mammals.

In the morning when it's dark out it's prime hunting time for the coyotes.

They were here before me, I don't try to do anything to break their routine. The two encounters this past summer ended with the coyote running away, I think I scared his prey off.

You just never know when one will contract rabies, though...

[oldhippie]

39. Funny, when I first moved here to Texas we had coyotes in our yard .....

Back in Calif where I lived coyotes were considered dangerous and a problem to be reported to local animal control. Here in Texas I am on a fairly rural property but still within the city limits. We had coyotes (and rattlesnakes and copperheads) in my back yard and I was worried about my cat. I called the local city animal control people and told them. They basically said so what? They have lived here longer than you have. Unless a predator kills pets or livestock, they don't get involved, even in the city limits.

[arcane1]

11. Fear.

[crazyjoe]

135. I don't know, it just popped into my head when i was posting. :-)

[Downwinder]

13. I know of an occasion where all it took was the sound

of a shell being chambered for an intruder to leave the premise through closed sliding glass doors.

[Robb]

20. Do you? Because I believe it's a myth.

[Whovian]

16. Bright idea. In a dark home you want to carry something that will reflect any available light to

assure the the burglar a good target to make it a more challenging shootout like in the movies.

You may get killed because of the nickel plating, but damn, it looks so cool!



Reality check. In over 60 years I have never had to shoot anyone in my home or apartment in either rural or metro areas in which I have lived and know no one that has. Movies and TV shows are drama, not reality but are all based on unusual occurrences or pure fiction.

[crazyjoe]

137. WOW, what a dumb thing to say. I'm not going to sneak around in the dark

shooting at intruders dumbass, I've never been in a situation where I've had to pull out the gun, but I think it might be a good idea to, ya know, give a warning of some kind.
like, "I've got a gun, you best get the f**k out of here!"
That will probably give my position away as well, the yelling and swearing and stuff.
You've been exposed as a knucklehead who doesn't know what he's talking about. Have a nice day dummy.

[Whovian]

140. Gee, the use of the word DUmmy in this post makes wonder wher you might hale from.

What other forums do you enjoy?

Did you know the Name Crazy Joe is how they refer to Joe Biden over at FR?

[crazyjoe]

193. I was Crazy Joe long before Obama was elected,

but don't let that stop you from accusing me of being a troll because I made you look like a fool.
I know it must sting a bit, try not to let it bother you too much.

[Vinnie From Indy]

23. Nickle plated?

LOL!

[DollarBillHines]

49. My thoughts, exactly.

Hell, why not wear a miner's lamp?

[crazyjoe]

138. see post 137. you guys should start a club.

[Ohio Joe]

26. A storm coming... Fuckin-A

You are the problem. You should not be allowed to own a gun of any kind.

[crazyjoe]

139. why? please explain. Should you be able to own a gun?

[baldguy]

27. No, you did not do the right thing. Your home is now quantifiably less secure than before.

You've been seduced by fear & RW propaganda. It is the WRONG thing to do.

[crazyjoe]

141. Thanks for disagreeing without all the childish comments I see in other posts.

I respect your opinion, but not the opinions of some here who just choose to call me names and attack me. This place can get ridiculous sometimes.

[BeyondGeography]

31. Congratulations; here are some fun facts for you to ponder

[ProgressiveProfessor]

71. Where are the facts?

Its a a well done cartoon screed

[baldguy]

143. You want footnotes on a cartoon?

[ProgressiveProfessor]

160. I would settle for accurate numbers

[baldguy]

176. They're the same numbers that have always been there; they haven't changed.

More guns = higher homicide rates
http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/research/hicrc/firearms-research/guns-and-death/index.html

More guns = higher suicide rates
http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/news/press-releases/2007-releases/press04102007.html

Gun Accidents Kill 500 Kids a Year
http://www.momlogic.com/2008/08/protect_your_kids_from_guns.php

Guns in homes can increase risk of death and firearm-related violence
http://www.news-medical.net/news/20100204/Guns-in-homes-can-increase-risk-of-death-and-firearm-related-violence.aspx

People who keep a gun in their home are almost twice as likely to die in a gun-related homicide.
Women living in a home where there is a gun are almost three times more likely to die in a gun-related homicide than men similarly situated.
The risk of killing oneself using a gun was almost 17 times greater for persons who live in a home where there is a gun, compared to those in homes without guns.
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2012/03/26/1077930/-Statistics-Guns-and-Wishful-Thinking

Individuals in possession of a gun were 4.46 times more likely to be shot in an assault than those not in possession.
Among gun assaults where the victim had at least some chance to resist, this adjusted odds ratio increased to 5.45.
Guns do not protect those who possessed them from being shot in an assault. The probability of successful defensive gun uses is low for civilian gun users in urban areas.
http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2009/10/04/carry-a-gun-you-get-shot-more/


The numbers in the cartoon are well-documented & well-known. Only in the Bizarro World of the RW fascist gun culture are they denied.

[OneMoreDemocrat]

33. Oh, I thought this was going to be one of those misleading posts...

Or perhaps one asking members to fill in the blank.

Darn, I was going to say 'Dildo'.

[allrevvedup]

45. My guess was carriage light.

I've read that the best deterrents are houselights and street visibility. Of course, security bars are also helpful but they're a much bigger investment.

to Joe: you did the worst thing imaginable. chances are that gun will cause more grief than ten housebreaks could begin to. My advice is to dig a hole out back and bury it. Chalk it up to another impulse purchase inspired by Murder Inc. Don't think they're not flogging this for all it's worth.

[Jeff In Milwaukee]

51. Mastubation with a nickel-plated carriage light?!

Pervert!

You're right, of course. Exterior lighting, low shrubs, and deadbolt locks are good enough for just about anybody who doesn't live in a high crime neighborhood. And don't forget a dog. When not scaring off intruders, a dog provides much better companionship than a shotgun.

[allrevvedup]

62. Potentially electrifying

but there are lower-tech solutions available.

Dogs: good for companionship but hard on neighbors, meter readers, passers by and the like, unless they don't bark, in which case, better the lights. Also they can be awfully lazy if nobody's around, even uber-obnoxious ones. I've known a few house dogs to sleep quietly through burglaries and I often see neighbors' barking terrors ignoring the world when the gravy train is away.

[Jeff In Milwaukee]

66. To the point of the OP

I was reading a Guns and Ammo discussion board, and people are talking about literally sleeping with their firearm holstered and on their person at night. Not just in or on the nightstand.

There's an accident looking for a place to happen.

[allrevvedup]

112. Here's a nice brushed nickel one for $79.99:

complete with motion detector. Free shipping too. How much was the gun, anyway?



Lampsplus link:http://www.lampsplus.com/products/motion-sensor-14-and-three-quarter-inch-high-brushed-nickel-outdoor-light__34248.html

Tons more: http://www.lampsplus.com/products/s_carriage/category_outdoor-lighting/

They're a little cheaper at Lowe's, even less at Home Depot if you want total crap. I'd go with Lowe's.

re. sleeping with the gun: well at least that's a useful purpose. Totally worthless as home security however. Think about it, if you get to the point where you'd actually need a gun, you're already screwed. So might as well sleep with it, or even better, bury it.

oops, wrong finish, fixed it. . .

[crazyjoe]

142. Ha, now that's kinda funny :-)

[k2qb3]

37. Okay, few things.

First off, that evil assault shotgun of yours is capable of shooting 30 projectiles AT THE SAME TIME!!!!

Second, the whole point of evil fragmenting and/or hollowpoint bullets is that they don't over-penetrate, buckshot carries FAR more energy through an interior wall than does .223/5.56, which fragments in drywall at close range.

A nickel HD weapon has disadvantages.

A handgun leaves you a free hand to hold a light, which is kind of important for target identification, I'll leave the discussion on the wisdom of weapon-mounted lights to people who care.

Anyway, congrats on being armed, keep it secure and consider No2 shot.

[crazyjoe]

144. My thought was the projectiles would be greatly slowed if not stopped by a wall, so it

would be less a chance of hitting a neighbor sleeping in his bed up the street. I have heard of folks getting hit by stray bullets but not so much stray buckshot.
I don't pretend to know everything about it, it just made sense to me I guess. handguns may be a better option but I don't like the fact that unless I got a revolver, the semi auto will reload itself and cock itself after the first shot, in a high stress situation you could fire a second shot accidentally.
Anyway, thanks for the feedback.

[Travis_0004]

177. Buckshot will certainly go through drywall.

If you live in an apartment, its something to think about. If you live in a neighborhood, I wouldn't worry. I would argue the reason you hear of people getting hit by stray buckshot less is because shotguns are not used as much, not because they penetrate less. Either way, a rifle, buckshot, or pistol will penetrate 4 walls (drywall). None of the above would be a threat to go through brick and into your neighbors house.

I think having the shotgun is nice, but training is more important, so make sure you go to the shooting range a few times a year so you are familiar with it.

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot14.htm

[crazyjoe]

197. I agree of course buckshot will penetrate drywall, probably like it isn't even there.

But in order to leave the home, at least my home, the buckshot would also need to penitrate 7/8" of hard pine sheathing (100 year old house) and several inches of red cedar shingles.
From within the home, I will know where my family is hiding, or at the very least, I know they will be laying on the floor.

[morningfog]

38. Your name fits.

[ileus]

41. Hard to go wrong with a 12ga for HD.

Congrats....

[The Link]

42. What load are you going to use?

You might not hit your neighbors, but you will probably hit your kids.

[DollarBillHines]

50. #2 will fuck up a person, but it will barely penetrate drywall.

I load 00 because our bedroom is in the rear of the house and anyone between our bedroom and the front door is in serious trouble.

[The Link]

63. You guys are fucking dangerous. 7 1/2 birdshot will penetrate at least 4 sheets of interior drywall

People like you are the reason guns kill way more family members of gun owners than intruders.

[DollarBillHines]

83. Really, you got proof?

At what distance? A 6" shot is sorta out of the question.

7 1/2 doesn't get thru 1/2" of dove. Must be pretty shitty drywall. Who the hell uses 1/2" drywall, anyway? Our house is 3/4" flame resistant.

For those who haven't been in bad situations...

In home, you never take a shot without understanding the situation. It's your house, you have the drop.

That is one factor why our bedroom is at the back of the house.

Guns kill family members because they shoot their own, either accidentally or on crazy. Unfortunately, a lot of gun owners have no business being around firearms - they are just either stupid or inept.

I am not a gun nut, I totally support the action to ban assault rifles and I think that there should be a rigorous background check and waiting period on all firearm sales. If those scurvy arms purveyors at those fucking shows had to ship those guns, the game would change.

I despise what we have become. The US culture is sick, through and through.

We are our own enemy.

If I knew how, I would be praying for those Newtown Families.

If I can remember to do so, I would like to send you a PM of something that happened to me.

DBH

[ProgressiveProfessor]

88. Its easy enough to determine...build some test boxes. It might surprise you, it did me.

7 1/2 doesn't get thru 1/2" of dove. Must be pretty shitty drywall. Who the hell uses 1/2" drywall, anyway? Our house is 3/4" flame resistant.

That is range dependent at 3 feet it will and then some, at 30 yards not so much. Small shot loses energy must faster than bullets. I've taken a fair amount of chuckar with 7 1/2.

Most fire resistant drywall is 5/8s and only used where required in residential construction. Industry standard in the US for interior use is 1/2"

[FarCenter]

109. At 15 feet, a 12 gauge full choke #6 load blows a large hole through a 2 x 8

The old-fashioned actual 2" thick kind, not what you get at Home Depot these days.

Also shot a couple of skunks as they were leaving the hen house bloated with eggs. At 20 to 25 feet, they literally explode.

[AlecBGreen]

186. ewwww....

"Uh, hey baby? Ya know those skunks thats been raiding the hen house? Well, would you mind cleaning them up? Thanks"

A .22 might be a better choice next time

[FarCenter]

189. With a .22, skunks will spray before they die; there is less chance of spraying with a 12 gauge.

[AlecBGreen]

191. (channeling johnny carson)

I did not know that. Thanks for the tip!

[ProgressiveProfessor]

70. You might want to look up or do your own testing

It will go right though drywall and interior doors just fine,

[DollarBillHines]

86. And who's using open (skeet) choke in a house?

Go to 'Full' at home.

Do you have any experience with real firearms?

I hate private ownership of assault weapons.

I fully accept background checks (no limit) and a waiting period (this would kill those bastards who do the shows).

But I am not about to give up my firearms. Each and every one of them was selected to insure me and mine.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

87. Home defense barrels are open cylinder bore to have maximum spread

Even then the spread is minimal at household ranges, 3-4 inches at best. Bluestate10 greatly over states the spread in post #54.

I am a combat vet and a firearms instructor. Also competed in trap and skeet for a while.

If you prefer a shotgun, that is up to you. Use what you feel most comfortable with. The best answer for most people is a modern (read semiautomatic) handgun.

My thoughts on additional measures are here: http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022008389

[crazyjoe]

145. That's a fucked up thing to say, what's wrong with you?

[proud2BlibKansan]

43. I miss unrec

[rbrnmw]

85. me too I wish these posters would scurry

back to the gungeon I'm sick and tied of reading these in GD and they are purposely taking advantage of it to rub our faces in their sick gun fantasies

[Jeff In Milwaukee]

103. It's like friggin' catnip...

I'm a gun owner and these guy creep me out.

[llmart]

106. Wish we could put a whole thread on Ignore.

This is what I hate about the "new" DU.

In fact, this is what drove me away from DU for a couple of years. I'll probably not continue. There are other progressive sites that don't have this in-your-face gun nuttery.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

119. That is easily done

[crazyjoe]

147. oh please, drama much? Not only did you not ignore my post, you participated!!

[slackmaster]

44. Good choice, but I wouldn't worry about a round from an AK at 500 yards

A typical bullet drop at that range would be more than six feet.

[crazyjoe]

146. it was a guess, I really have no idea. All I know is there powerful and the bullet can travel

a long distance and still do damage.

[liberalmuse]

46. It's like bad porn.

Reading stuff like this. I feel dirty.

[Jeff In Milwaukee]

52. There's no such thing as bad porn...

Oops. Sorry. I thought I was in the Lounge.

[bluestate10]

53. Shotguns are effective for dealing with home invasions. They are easy to load and simple to shoot.

Develop a safe plan for controlling access to the gun and a path for getting to it if you need to use it in a pinch.

[doc03]

55. Cool where do I get a nickle plated shotgun?

What model is it?

[crazyjoe]

149. actually, I don't really know if it's nickel. The metal is a silver color,

the tag says "Marinecote finish", whatever that means.
It's a Mossberg 500 mariner Pump-Action. 6 shot, 3" chamber. 18 1/2" barrel. came with both a regular stock and a optional pistol grip.
Not expensive, I just wanted something for home protection and they had both black and this one. I traded in my 30/30 I've had for 25 years, and a Rugar P85 which I never liked much anyway. It was heavy and bulky, and I couldn't hit anything with it anyway.

[former-republican]

172. "good choice " but forget the pistol grip unless it has a stock attached behind it.

[crazyjoe]

195. agreed, the guy at the store said you can injure your hand using the pistol grip.

My thought was I wanted it as short as possible so it would be easier to hide, it's not going to do me any good locked up in a safe if I need it quickly.
I still need to decide how I'm going to store it, and where I can put some shells where I can grab them quickly. It came with a cable lock too, which I haven't tried yet. I won't leave a loaded gun laying around, even with the cable lock, where some kid could find it, even though I have no small children at home, my nieces and nephews do come over to visit.

[former-republican]

203. I kind of hate the thought of storing a gun anywhere but a safe.

When you're home leaving it out leaning against a wall is fine
as long as your nieces and nephews aren't visiting at the time.

The thing you want to make sure doesn't happen is it's stolen in a smash and grab which most burglaries are.
Have you thought of buying a gun safe?

It doesn't have to be that elaborate , I looked at one at Walmart yesterday in the sporting good dept for under $300
Bolt it right to the floor and you have piece of mind when the kids are in the house or when you aren't home.

It's probably an added expense you weren't anticipating but in my humble opinion it's well worth the cost.

[WilliamPitt]

60. Cool story, bro.

[crazyjoe]

150. Are you being sarcastic Will? Do you have an opinion you want to share?

[Union Scribe]

64. Just keep it secured. nt

[Chorophyll]

65. Nice going.

Your name suits you.

[VOX]

67. No! No! You want the Official Red Ryder Carbine-Action Two-Hundred-Shot Range Model Air Rifle!

With a compass in the stock!
Santa Claus: You'll shoot your eye out, kid.

Your 12-gauge will look beautiful under the tree on Christmas morning, Joe.

[politicat]

68. Jason was my cousin.

http://www.theindychannel.com/news/gunsmith-sentenced-in-stray-shot-that-killed-man

A gunsmith who fired the stray bullet that killed a man as he slept in his central Indiana home has been sentenced to 60 days in jail.
John Graf, of Monrovia, apologized during a Morgan County court hearing after pleading guilty to a felony criminal recklessness charge in the March 2009 death of Jason Breisch, 35.

It doesn't take a high-powered rifle.
If you must, will you please load it with bean bags, rubber shot or rock salt?

[progressoid]

99. ...

[crazyjoe]

152. I'm sorry about your cousin, that sucks. I asked about non-lethal projectiles in the store when

I bought it, the guy looked at me like I had 2 heads.
I agree with you though, I would think rock salt would stop pretty much anyone. I'll look into it.

[GreenStormCloud]

174. That is a really bad idea..

When you pull the trigger to shoot the salt, the other guy will think he is being shot at with buckshot. He will think his life is in danger and will respond accordingly. If you ever shoot someone, it has to be for real or don't shoot at all. Shooting with rock salt is an very strong bluff, but still a bluff. Never bluff with a gun as things can get real ugly if your bluff is called.

[crazyjoe]

198. you make some good points, but I think you under estimate the effect

of getting shot with rock salt.

[politicat]

181. I know rock salt can be hand-loaded.

I've got another cousin who uses it specifically for the coyotes. (As apex predators, the coyotes keep the rodent population reasonable, and as canines, the coyotes are smart enough to learn where they shouldn't go after getting stung a couple times.)

Salt requires frequent cleaning, though.

[kestrel91316]

73. If I ever wind up living out in the country with no street lights or close neighbors,

I will probably get a 12g for varmints and scaring off hooligans. I'll have no need for a handgun. I MIGHT need a deer rifle, too.

I feel no need to have enough guns to set up my own personal militia. I guess I'm weird.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

75. Shotgun inside a residence is a bad idea

No safer than a assault rifle and harder to use.

[kestrel91316]

82. Well when you live alone it's a nice thing - an intruder is

the only other person around. No collateral damage, IOW.

[hunter]

78. I mock you.

[spin]

79. Since I live in an urban environment just as you do I agree. ...

However if I lived in a rural environment I might chose to own an assault style rifle for self defense or hog hunting. In all probability I would chose a lever action rifle because they are less expensive.

Assault style rifles such as the AR-15 are used for hunting despite what the media would have you believe. No, you don't hunt deer with a 20, 30, or 100 round magazine as most states have a limit on the size of the magazine that you can have in your weapon while hunting. Also assault style weapons are widely used in competitive shooting.

[DainBramaged]

95. The only storm coning is the increase in gun sales to the paranoid AK47%

[Jeff In Milwaukee]

101. The AK47%!

I'm so stealing that line!

[Iggo]

125. Oh, man. That's funny!

AK47%.

[crazyjoe]

153. I traded in two older guns I had for this one, (plus a little money), so I actually have less

weapons than i did before the purchase!

[MineralMan]

96. Where do you live?

See, I'd like one of those, but can't afford it. Your announcement, though, gives me an idea.

[Jeff In Milwaukee]

100. And do you work first shift? (nt)

[MineralMan]

117. Hey! I asked first.

Damn...I don't want any competition.

[Recursion]

102. Connecticut already banned them, so he used a non-assault weapon

If that isn't a sign that we need to rethink the ban, I don't know what would be.

[Erose999]

108. A few months ago Dad and I found a bullet hole in the side of his house. They painted a couple years

ago and it was not painted over so it must have happened since he's been living there. They are surrounded by gun nuts who are always shooting AR's and SKS's in the bottom of the holler where their neighborhood is.

It had to be a stray bullet because it hit an odd part of the house to be shooting "at" somebody, and at an angle. And my dad isn't the type of person to have "enemies".

Scary shit to know that a random bullet went into the house, an un-noticed at the time it happened.

[Generic Other]

113. You'll shoot your eye out Ralph!

Nothing like the smell of right wing paranoia in the morning!

[slackmaster]

115. I feel the same way about the fire extinguisher in my kitchen

And the fire extinguisher in my garage.

[slackmaster]

122. I'd piss on the blanket first

That way I'd be using a yellow blanket.

[crazyjoe]

154. :-)

[crazyjoe]

130. I hope and pray I never have to use it. I would rather have a gun and not need it,

then to need a gun and not have it.

[sarisataka]

118. Make sure you practise

the ability to 'point, shoot, hit' with a shotgun is an even bigger Hollywood myth than the bullets that throw people backwards.

[Zoeisright]

120. Congratulations!

Thanks for identifying yourself as someone who is completely stupid.

[crazyjoe]

156. Why are you so mad and unhappy? has the world not givin you a fair shake? Try to cheer up,

I'm sure your life won't suck forever, just keep reminding yourself that there is somebody out there for everyone, even you.

[Iggo]

124. Boi-oi-oi-oi-oing!!!

Guns!!!

[TheOther95Percent]

126. I too did the right thing for home protection and gave my doorman his holiday tip.

I understand as a "union thug" he is now obligated to throw himself in front of any bullets coming my way. Or so some politician types tell me.

[crazyjoe]

161. hey, we can't all afford to live in a building that has a doorman! Are you a %1er ?

[TheOther95Percent]

180. Not at all.

I believe I might be in the top 50%.

[Jennicut]

148. It is still pretty rare to be in a home invasion.

Or a mass shooting.

Of course, I live in the state where the Newtown shootings occured. And my hometown is Cheshire, where one of the worst home invasions ever in the US happened. Just look it up, it is too horrible for me to even talk about. It involved a family and rape and being burned to death were part of it.

I don't know, I have no answers on what people should do to make themselves feel "safe". I used to play as a child in that neighborhood where the home invasion happened. It was the mid 80's. I always felt safe. I never felt unsafe when I went to Newtown to hang out with my husband's band mates, who grew up there.

I still don't own a gun. Or really desire one right now. But whatever makes you feel better to be able to sleep at night.

[hifiguy]

165. A good friend of mine is a woman who lives alone

and knows how to handle guns very well thank you, though she is an NRA-hating lefty. She keeps a 12 gauge loaded with birdshot next to her bed. With the safety on. Anyone who breaks into Kate's house is in for one rude motherfking surprise and a trip to the hospital.

[HooptieWagon]

168. If you really think you need a weapon for home defense,

a pump shotgun is probably the best choice. However, a solid door and shiny nickle-plated lock probably would give you more actual security. It will never cause you legal difficulty, and would be a major obstacle to someone getting in your house where you might have to use the shotgun. Furthermore, it will protect your house even when you're not home. Well worth the money, and even if you rent the landlord may be willing to share the cost.

Edit to add: the mere presense of the shotgun may make your house a target to theives who want to steal it. I've never heard of common theives stealing a door and heavy-duty lock.

[GreenStormCloud]

178. The lock and the shotgun are not mutually exclusive.

He can have both.

[HooptieWagon]

182. True. But the lock has greater effectiveness and less liability.

Just sayin'.

[GreenStormCloud]

184. Of course he should have a good lock.

In addition to its other benefits, it will cause the intruders to have to make a lot of noise getting in, thereby waking him up. And intruder alarms are fairly cheap and would help.

Anything that might scare the intruder away before he has to shoot is a good idea. Blood makes a really bad mess on the carpet, especially a lot of blood. You have to replace the carpet and that isn't cheap.

[Toronto]

183. The desire to protect yourself is understandable

however, what happens when your teenager sneaks out in the middle of the night, and they do, and returns some time later, but you don`t know it`s your kid coming back into the house. You think it`s an intruder, and your kid probably had a few and doesn`t want you to know, so he or she is sneaking around trying not to attract any attention. Would you have the presence of mind not to shoot first and ask questions later....

[Go Vols]

192. For me

I say an easy yes,I have 2 kids grown and gone.

[crazyjoe]

200. I don't have kids living at home, but to your point,

by the time I actually fired on a human being, all other options would be exhausted first. I have no desire to live with the guilt of killing someone.
the only thing I desire less is allowing someone in my family to be harmed and I did not do everything in my power to prevent that.

[demokatgurrl]

201. I thought you were going to say "dog". n/t

[slampoet]

205. No, Only smart people buy dogs for home security.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

210. Dogs don't last in my neighborhood

[brooklynite]

211. I would have picked up a pair of bulldogs...

Strong likelihood the burglars will trip over them in the dark...

[crazyjoe]

215. I don't think my cats would appreciate that :-)

[Rosa Luxemburg]

213. If you have a gun at home you need it under your pillow like 007

what use is a gun when it is locked in the gun cupboard in the basement? To the intruders 'just a minute while I go downstairs and get my gun'

[ProgressiveProfessor]

214. There are any number of single pistol safes available

which allow rapid access and security. Be glad to supply you links