Check in here if you think NO DEAL before the New Year is a VICTORY

[alcibiades_mystery]

Stand for NO DEAL!

[HereSince1628]

1. Have car, will Cliff Drive! n/t

[Fridays Child]

3. +1

[ProudProgressiveNow]

31. +1 nt

[cliffordu]

64. Sure, I'll drive. After I start drinking

Y'all are on your own.

[jsr]

2. Let the Bush tax cuts expire.

Kill them dead.

Do Nothing.

[We People]

16. +99 n/t

[limpyhobbler]

4. no deal is better than a crappy deal. nt

[alcibiades_mystery]

6. So, a victory? Or just better than a crappy deal?

[limpyhobbler]

21. At this point it looks like a victory I guess.

Really it's a shitty option because it could potentially hurt the economy.

But it's starting to look like the least shitty option. We call those victories I guess.

[alcibiades_mystery]

25. Well, that sounds half-hearted

What would a victory be, if not going over the cliff?

[limpyhobbler]

37. Over the cliff is the best option right now.

For me a better victory would be something more like what the Congressional Progressive Caucus proposed.
http://cpc.grijalva.house.gov/deal-for-all/

But it's not a realistic option right now.

[alcibiades_mystery]

42. Fair enough! Best option it is.

[nadinbrzezinski]

5. Yup, off the curb.

[Jim Warren]

7. Merry Cliffmas!

...

[HereSince1628]

9. I see what you did there...very clever!

[ProSense]

8. Come on, do the

Wile Thing

[Autumn]

12. I have always avoided your posts, that being said. You have fucking rocked

through this. And that post should be posted all on it's own.

[ProSense]

17. Thanks.

That image cracks me up.

[freshwest]

50. You said you liked this one, earlier:

And I have just stolen yours!

[JDPriestly]

53. Agreed. That post should be posted on its own.

The super-rich in this country have taken care of themselves. They climbed in their financial lifeboats and left our shores long ago.

I don't think we have a choice. I don't think that "compromising" on Social Security will help the economy. It would just exclude a lot of very elderly people from our economy.

Wall Street wants to own us. They want to make us pay to live in our own bodies. They own everything else in this country, and now they want to get their greedy hands on our Social Security money.

No. Thanks. I would rather that the US government watch my money.

There is no problem with Social Security that creating jobs in this country wouldn't solve.

Problem is, the rich have most of the money. And they could care less about what happens to this country as long as we have a strong military that protects their overseas investments. They think only of themselves.

The Social Security Trust Fund would be in great shape if rich Americans invested in jobs in this country and worked to protect our workers, American workers, from the sucking sound of free trade.

That is not what they are doing. I say tax them and take the tax revenue and let the government invest in jobs in our country with it.

And no cuts whatsoever to Social Security.

[navarth]

91. well said, thank you nt

[mac56]

148. "There is no problem with Social Security that creating jobs in this country wouldn't solve."

This.

[pandr32]

169. Agreed. So many depend on Social Security yet

bills keep going up. Many seniors can't afford to heat their homes, pay their electric bills, garbage collection, pay for gas for their car to get around in, and also buy food. Yesterday I was at the local Costco where seniors tend to work for for the promotions company that hands out samples of products (to be fair there are also a few younger people doing the same job, but I would say 70% are seniors). It was insanely busy and so many snatching samples are complete ingrates who do not even acknowledge the people preparing and handing out the snacks. The oldest lady is 90 and visibly frail. They get close to minimum wage and stand on their feet all day a couple of days a week because they cannot get by on their SS alone. The oldest lady worked her whole life but spent her savings to help her son who suffered some kind of medical emergency several years ago (I always talk to her). She should not be suffering the insults and abuse that rude people hurl her way. Social Security needs to have proper cost of living increases--not cuts.

[calimary]

217. LOVE IT! It's in our best interests to let this go til the new year.

When the new year arrives, and brings with it a new Congress, some of the assholes who love obstructing stuff like this will be GONE. Many of them republi-CONS who'll be replaced by DEMOCRATS. We have more momentum on our side as of the new year. If the CONS were really smart, they'd cut a deal now while they still have the numbers (and the bad-guy sympathizers) in Congress and the Senate that they do.

Yeah, CONS. Just try getting something done when Elizabeth Warren is one of those new folks you're gonna have to deal with in the Senate. Try getting your way when your two favorite House loudmouths, joe walsh and allen west, are GONE and thus no longer able to hog the spotlight and propel your obstructions farther forward. Both of those schmucks will be GONE, replaced by DEMOCRATS, who don't share the same walsh/west head-up-your-ass ideology and have no plans to start doing so anytime soon. Better the devil you know, and all that.

So try to get your deal NOW. While you still have what's left of your waning power base.

[reverend_tim]

219. perfect - this is the picture I had in my mind

[Wwagsthedog]

10. What me worry about a little cliff?

[Autumn]

11. I want to soar over the fucking cliff

with a smile on my face. FUCK REPUBLICANS

[TheProgressive]

13. With all the crap from republicans And Democrats ....

Yes. Let the tax cuts expire. Do the War Dept cuts. Et. Al.

No offense, but fuck them. Our politicians are killing our country.

It is time, oh is it time, to put America back on the track for *all* Americans.

[99Forever]

14. Let's roll!

[Wellstone ruled]

15. Timber!!!!

Here we go,fired up,lets go.

[The Magistrate]

18. Time To Fly, Sir....

[il_lilac]

19. Absolutely!

NO deal is better than a BAD deal!

[Hydra]

20. No f***ing deal

If everyone wants to keep the tax cuts on the middle class(I'd rather talk about WORKING CLASS tax incentives myself), they can pass that and leave the rest alone.

SSI is NOT an acceptable bleed point. Start with the Dept of War and 1% and if we still need something after that, go after Mitt Romney and his tax evading ass.

[alcibiades_mystery]

24. Yes, yes, of course...but i mean that if we don't have a deal by January 1, that is a VICTORY

in and of itself.

Whatever happens after is another matter, yes?

[Hydra]

27. Oh yes, I like clear goals like that

And the President can do even more at that point, so he should wait.

This sudden push to fix it before the Repubs get kicked out worries me, moreso when everyone in Washington is signaling that a deal has already been reached that we won't like.

[alcibiades_mystery]

28. I just wanted to be clear that this thread is for those who would consider a Jan 1 No Deal a Victory

Thanks!

[JeffHead]

22. I've got my bags packed.. Lets go

[Egalitarian Thug]

23. Present & R. n/t

[Deep13]

26. No, but it's better than letting the Bush tax cuts continue.

I'm mostly concerned with the huge cuts in domestic spending it will mean.

[alcibiades_mystery]

30. It wouldn't be a victory. OK. How about the best outcome of those available and possible now?

Assuming the GOP won't fold completely, is a Jan 1 NO DEAL the best of all possible outcomes?

[Deep13]

74. Yeah, all right...

We get Clinton tax rates, and a huge cut in defense. If Obama caves we don't get the defense cuts, we just get the big domestic cuts.

[ieoeja]

168. +1 ^^^ This. Domestic spending cuts will hurt big time.

But going over the cliff, even with the suffering of the spending cuts, is better than extending the tax holiday. And I am someone who was actually hurt by the Graham-Rudman-Hollingsworth debacle. It is not a good thing. But it is better than locking in the stupid.

A tax holiday has to be the worst economic policy ever. All incentive for the investor class during a tax holiday is to cash out their investments. Investors will want to take in as much profit as possible on the assumption that those profits would be taxed higher in the future.

If I was a major stockholder in megacorp, and megacorp decided to reinvest their profits instead of paying me dividends during this holiday, I would demand the CEO's head on a stake.

Heck, I own a small business. It needs one rather minor repair. But I can put it off for awhile. I almost went ahead with it this year, but changed my mind specifically because of the tax holiday.

I am, of course, going to write off the expense. Which means a portion of the money spent on my business is money that would have gone to the government in the form of taxes had I not spent it on the business. When the tax holiday expires that amount will be larger than it is today. So I can maximize my income over the course of time by waiting.

If they let taxes raise on the wealthy, but extend the holiday on everybody making less than $250,000? I will put it off until the extension ends. Because I am not in that $250+ category. So all my incentive is to continue not re-investing.

Stupid, stupider, stupidest economic policy.

[quaker bill]

29. My bet is just like last time

Boehner can't get a majority up. It is really all hot air.

[msongs]

32. "cliff" takes the car keys away from the current holder. go for it nt

[Greybnk48]

33. Bring it! n/t

[plethoro]

34. Lead the way, boys.....

[limpyhobbler]

224. LOL

that's silly

[kentuck]

35. I don't know if you could call it a victory but...

...it would be better than the deal that has been proffered.

[alcibiades_mystery]

44. How about "Best Option Available and Realistic at This Point"

or Victory relative to all the other possibilities.

[Melinda]

36. Present.

[PufPuf23]

38. New and better deal next term, no deal now.

[alcibiades_mystery]

45. Let's just get to Jan 1 without a Deal for now though, yeah?

[oldbanjo]

39. yes no deal.

[nineteen50]

40. Crack that

military, corporate, congress war machine. Go over the cliff.

[Motown_Johnny]

41. No Deal is better than a Bad Deal, I think we can all agree on that.

[alcibiades_mystery]

47. is anything other than a bad deal a possibility? If not, then No Deal would be a victory

at least temporarily, right?

[rhett o rick]

43. No deals that cut safety nets. Go off the cliff and we will pick up those pieces we

want to save.

[alcibiades_mystery]

46. Yeah!

[kenny blankenship]

48. No deal beats any deal cutting SS or Medicare.

Victory, however, will be achieved when talking about cutting SS or Medicare ends your career in politics. Get caught offering to cut either, and just clear out your desk and go home. Your state's Governor will appoint your interim successor or schedule a special election. That's what victory will look like.

[alcibiades_mystery]

51. Victory, ultimately, would be equality, full employment, and the end of poverty

But let's look at things short term here.

No deal by January 1 is a victory for progressives? or at the very least, the best available remaining option?

[kenny blankenship]

187. I guess I have to repeat myself.

Victory on Social Security and Medicare will come when it is clear that they will never DARE talk about cutting them to pay for rich fucks' taxcuts and pointless and imperial wars ever again. When the DC consensus once more holds that is instant political suicide to speak of cutting these programs, we can say we have won. But remember: that is only asking for the minimally decent status quo ante to be restored and respected, nothing more. Is it really too much to ask of the Democratic Party that it not embrace Fascist barbarism too, along with the Republicans?

[MyshkinCommaPrince]

49. Agreed.

There can be no deals with the current House makeup which would not be bad deals, unfortunately. They'll never agree to anything our side offers. I do like the fact that they're being exposed for just how extreme they are. I think Obama is playing the same game that brought about the agreement which brings the "cliff" before us. He may scare us a bit with what he offers, but they'll never accept it. They'll push for something more extreme, or reject the offer as a way of rejecting Obama and Democrats. No deal is the best deal we can hope for.

Umm. I have actually read several of the panic threads about Obama giving away everything. I may be guilty of delusional, hopeful thinking. But I think things will play out as I note above. Please don't whomp on me for my opinions.

[customerserviceguy]

71. The new House is pretty much going to look like the old House

The Repukes didn't lose that many seats. I really don't think things will get any easier in January than they are right now.

That said, I'm not really sure which alternative would be better for all concerned, I'm just glad that my job is in a utility that is absolutely necessary.

[dwilso40641]

52. no deal

is better than a bad deal.

[jberryhill]

54. +1

"No Deal" is the new "New Deal"

[wildbilln864]

55. cliff! cliff! cliff! cliff! cliff! cliff! cliff! cliff! cliff! cliff! cliff! cliff!

cliff! cliff! cliff! cliff! cliff! cliff! cliff! cliff! cliff! cliff! cliff! cliff! cliff! cliff! cliff! cliff! cliff! cliff! cliff! cliff! cliff! cliff! cliff! cliff! cliff! cliff! cliff! cliff! cliff! cliff! cliff! cliff! cliff! cliff! cliff! cliff! cliff! cliff! cliff! cliff! cliff! cliff! cliff! cliff! cliff! cliff! cliff! cliff! cliff! cliff! cliff! cliff! cliff! cliff! cliff! cliff! cliff! cliff! cliff! cliff! cliff! cliff! cliff! cliff! cliff! cliff! cliff! cliff! cliff! cliff! cliff! cliff!

[cliffordu]

67. Yes!!!????

[wildbilln864]

105. lol!

just checking on ya bro...hope u r well!

[Ed Suspicious]

56. +1

[dwilso40641]

57. over the cliff

is the only way we can get to the MIC.

[Change has come]

58. K & R

[trublu992]

59. My Dream

If we can hold out longer the better

[LeftInTX]

60. I'm ready to take the plunge

[The Wizard]

61. k&r

[littlemissmartypants]

62. Over the river and

off the cliff ..to Grandmother's house we go...

the horse knows the way to carry the sleigh....

[rocktivity]

63. Might as well...

rocktivity

[Warren DeMontague]

65. I hear it may cost a lot to win, and even more to lose. Therefore, you and me better spend some time

wondering what to choose.

[femrap]

66. No deal. nt

[NRaleighLiberal]

68. all ready for the cliff drop! Cliff, here we come! n/t

[judesedit]

69. NO DEAL!

[WorseBeforeBetter]

70. Grumpy thinks we're going over.

Hope she's right.

[MadrasT]

210. I for one welcome our grumpycat overlords

I stand with Tardar Sauce.

Cliff!!

Bring it.

[leftstreet]

72. +1

[okwmember]

73. To paraphrase Jon Stewart,

'At least for a moment we'll feel like we're fuckin' flying.' I too say we jump.

[deutsey]

75. K&R

[joetubes]

76. I'm in

No deal!

[L0oniX]

77. Here's how it could work for Obama...

Yes let the tax cuts expire ...then call for a bill to reduce taxes for those making less than $250,000. If the repukes obstruct then they get accused of being for taxes and not tax cuts.

[Maineman]

199. Sounds good to me!

[woo me with science]

78. No, it's not a victory, but it's the best possible option at this point.

We already lost the game when we permitted this shock doctrine debt ceiling charade last spring. No way should we have permitted the President to approve this austerity deal and trigger in the first place.

We should have raised bloody hell then. Instead, we let them give us austerity no matter what.

[alcibiades_mystery]

86. So there is no possibility of any victory now

It's already over?

[woo me with science]

231. Signing on to austerity packages is not a victory.

It is a decided loss. Even if we go over the cliff, we are stuck with budget slashing that Obama is fully responsible for, because he chose to validate the Shock Doctrine scam debt ceiling "crisis" last year. We should not be imposing austerity at all during this economy.

The victory can come after this debacle, IF the Democratic Party decides to go back to what truly defines a victory: passionate advocacy for and action toward legislation that actually HELPS people and holds bankers accountable.

How propaganda works to change our expectations of the Democratic Party
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022033331

People aren't falling for the propaganda anymore. If the Democratic Party wants to claim a victory, they need to give us something that really helps, not expect praise for subjecting us to one of the less painful of the various austerity options they have put into place.

[joshcryer]

243. Total propaganda. None of that happens if we go "over the cliff."

Preposterous.

[joshcryer]

222. The debt ceiling can be juggled for months.

The real issue is the Bush tax cuts would expire, thus a victory. Then you can point at the books and say "welp, the country is going to go bankrupt if you don't do anything."

Then you print the fucking ten trillion dollar platinum coin or invoke the 14th amendment that says "no debts shall be unpaid" or whatever it is (my internet is slow right now I think it's the 14th amendment).

In fact one of the great moves by the Democrats in the 2011 budget was to move the debt ceiling up until Feb-March, iirc, just by juggling the balance sheets.

[Eddie Haskell]

79. I'm in with both feet.

We're getting shoved off the cliff to provide a soft landing for the 1%. I didn't vote for Obama to bring back slavery and that's what we'll have if he caves.

[AzDar]

80. Off we go!

[Dawson Leery]

81. K/R

:kick:

[Mickju]

82. Absolutely

No Deal

[MrSlayer]

83. I don't know that it's a victory but it's the best way forward.

The proposed deals all suck donkey dick.

Waiter! One cliff dive please.

[samsingh]

84. no deal is a victory

[JimDandy]

85. Right now, if it's Obama's dump on the table, Plan B, or the cliff, then

dive, dive, dive, dive...

[UnrepentantLiberal]

87. Yo

[aintitfunny]

88. Check

[defacto7]

89. Cliff Shmiff

It's hardly a bump.

Let'r rip!

[Lifelong Protester]

90. NO DEAL

[morningfog]

92. Crash this mutha.

No deal.

[peace frog]

93. No deal is better than a bad deal

[WhoIsNumberNone]

94. No deal beats a crappy deal

I'm not sure how much less crappy the deal will be if it comes after the new congress is in, but I'm prepared to gamble given the apparent shittiness of the deal we have brewing now...

[abelenkpe]

95. K&R nt

[UCmeNdc]

96. No Deal!

[rosesaylavee]

97. No deal.

If they cut Social Security benefits - I will never vote for any Democrat who supports that action.

[LastLiberal in PalmSprings]

98. Let's wait until the next Congress is sworn in.

There will be fewer Teabaggers and there won't be this illusion of a "fiscal cliff" anymore after December 31 passes and the world doesn't end.

[allinthegame]

99. true that

the cliff is the better deal

[MannyGoldstein]

100. So I take it that you were just kidding in the past?

When you said that there would never be a deal cutting Social Security, and that the people who were predicting said deal were... well, you know.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=1786866

[alcibiades_mystery]

110. Oh, Manny

I didn't realize you loved me so much. Went searching and everything!

Manny and his Internet Feuds!

One of the reasons no deal will be a victory is because we still will not have any cuts to Social Security, don't you agree?



Will you celebrate a victory if there is no deal as of January 1? Or do you prefer not to be on record on that point?

[MannyGoldstein]

114. Seeing your OP, I did a spit take

After cleaning my keyboard, I just had to check to see if my brain was mis-remembering.

It wasn't.

Do you think that a teeny-tiny apology might be in order?

Yes, I agree that no deal is better than the fold-fest that's in the offing.

[alcibiades_mystery]

116. I don't think there's any apology required

When there's a signed bill that does what you say, we can renegotiate that point, though!

If there is no deal on January 1, will that still have been a fold?

[MannyGoldstein]

117. Sweet Jesus

[alcibiades_mystery]

118. Um

[joshcryer]

223. Oh there's still plenty of time for a fold.

The problem is Manny thinks that we've already folded.

I'm not ruling out that we've folded of course.

But it's already basically said and it's been said for months now.

[sasha031]

101. lets go over the illusionary cliff

I stand with no deal

[Pretzel_Warrior]

102. Booyah!

[ReRe]

103. I'm in!

K&R

And I've been in all along. Have gotten very scared a few times, with all the effing rumors, but I'm on board to let those Bush tax cuts disappear once and for all and forever effing more!!!! And when we take the House back in 2014, jack them up even more, I say to 75%! (on anyone making more than say $1 million/yr.)

No Deal!

[gkhouston]

104. No deal. n/t

[MNBrewer]

106. Yep

[craigmatic]

107. It's damn sure better than cutting social security.

[RoccoR5955]

108. No deal is better than a bad deal! n/t

[JackRiddler]

109. It's not a cliff, it's a bump!

[Lone_Star_Dem]

111. My parachute is on and I'm ready to cliff dive.

I won't meekly accept cuts to Social Security, and who knows what else, just to get it done before January.

[libodem]

112. No deal

Grab your pants we're going over. We'll be fine. It's a slope not a cliff. That is shock doctrine terminology. The Grand Obstructionist Party is becoming irrelevant to government and they know it. All they do is block progress and stand in the way.

[Historic NY]

113. Didn't we go through this before it makes for accounting

problems that need to be worked out later....no deal is better than a a deal with the devil.

[Kalidurga]

115. Even their horses are crazy...

[img]

[/img]

Let's do this thing. No deal.

[grahamhgreen]

119. Not only is no deal the best deal,

It also reduces the deficit the most!

[Owl]

232. Exactly!

[standingtall]

120. Ready to sprint over the imaginary cliff

and when the repukes try another debt ceiling stunt we should tell them to stick it too.

[vanlassie]

121. Damn right NO DEAL. who the hell does Boner think he is?

He's a LOSER!!!!! Fuck them.

[NYtoBush-Drop Dead]

122. RIght on!

LEt them all expire. Cut the military industrial complex to pre-911 numbers.

[TheKentuckian]

123. We're way past winning now but there will be no tolerable deal.

More critically, there will be never ending deals each making our overall lot in life worse for the long term.

Winning became close to impossible by simply ceding the frame, the commissions and gangs elevated the situation to having the controls set for the heart of the sun, the first deal was definitely flirting with an event horizon so we don't know if we are in or out. The last one was inarguably bad, people did and some actually claimed the polar opposite.

All that matters is the hostage crisis situations must stop and we have to push back hard and relentlessly.

We are in silly time from the jump, seeking to meet batshit crazy in the middle

So, no deal.

[alcibiades_mystery]

124. Will it have been a temporary win to get to the cliff

I agree with your entire post. I'm trying to determine whether we can say, at the very least, well, "we won that round" even if the whole thing is fucked in its root.

[One of the 99]

125. It's a loss for those who will lose their food stamps and other benefits

But screw those poor people, we have just want a partisan ideological victory.

[alcibiades_mystery]

126. On record for the other position is fine

Thanks for sharing.

[One of the 99]

130. So you're OK with other people's children going hungry

so you can say 'we won that round'.

And I thought those on the left were compassionate and interesting more that just winning for the sake of it. Silly me.

[alcibiades_mystery]

132. Who me?

Where do you see me saying anything of the sort?

[One of the 99]

144. Isn't that the whole point

of your post above.

[alcibiades_mystery]

145. No

[One of the 99]

149. Sorry if I misunderstood.

But then what is the point of your post.

[alcibiades_mystery]

166. I'm just taking the temparature of the board

I didn't state my own position anywhere in this thread. I want to see who is on record supporting no deal. So far, it looks like 250 or so of our most active and progressive members are on record supporting no deal. My post has no other purpose than to take the temperature.

[One of the 99]

170. So what is your position.

Accept a deal that can be undone by a future congress or allow essential benefits for the needy to be cut in 2 weeks?

[alcibiades_mystery]

173. I care about policy

[One of the 99]

175. That's not an answer.

[alcibiades_mystery]

176. Oh, it is

There's a lot about some contest here that people win, lose, fold, cave, betray, and etc.

I care about policy.

[One of the 99]

179. So what policies are you advocating?

[alcibiades_mystery]

188. Let me say this

The sequester will hurt like the Dickens. It will hurt across the board. Sunseting of various other provisions will also hurt. I'm not talking about the Bush tax cuts here. And when the pain really kicks in, I want to make sure that people can go back and look to see what they were asking for.

That said, chained CPI for Social Security is bad policy, and including it in a proposal at this time is bad negotiating and bad policy. Why? The current chained CPI index (in addition to being time inflexible...needing over a year to adjust!) is simply not very good at measuring senior/disabled/fixed income spenders. It's not good at factoring in health care costs when they are 25% or greater of out of pocket. It's not good at dealing with "substitution" fixes for inelastic commodities. So, to apply it to Social Security is bad policy. Finally, it's bad policy because what they're really trying to address is a putative 2% shortfall down the road, where chained CPI would presumably cut that by .5%: the shortfall is dubious, the effect is dubious, and the inclusion of such extraneous matters on current deficit reduction is silly. With all of that being clear to me, I think chained CPI for Social Security absent fixes should be a deal breaker; however, I remain unconvinced that the effects of what is clearly a benefits cut would be near as dire as predicted here.

On the $400,000, I'm on record elsewhere saying to be upset about it is plain silly.

To be upset over the move from $250,000 to $400,000, on the other hand, strikes me as ridiculous.

The Republicans started at "Absolutely no tax rate hikes ever."

They then moved to "OK, tax rate hikes."

They then moved to "OK, tax rate hikes at $1,000,000."

If they go for tax rate hikes at $400,000, they will have given a) the principle, and b) $600,000+ for the level. Obama will have given $150,000 for level, period. That's a loss? Indeed, it's really effectively $388,500, since that's where the top tax bracket starts. Obama will have given up $137,500 as the level in exchange for a permanent 39.5% rate on anything bigger than the top bracket? That's a loss? I'm mystified by this thinking.

Oh, well, people say, he should have just gone over the cliff! But he's giving away the payroll tax holiday! Um, what do you think happens to the payroll tax holiday if we go over the cliff? What do you think happens to middle class paychecks if we go over the cliff? Oh, we'll dare them to vote it down next year, then make them extinct! Sounds like a very plump couple of birds in a bush.

But chained CPI? It's a close call.

[One of the 99]

205. Good post. nt

[standingtall]

128. It will not be a victory for the poor no matter how this comes out

If we go over the cliff. Some will have to endure suffering for a few months or years, but if we get a really bad deal where social security, and or medicare cuts are part of the package. The poor will be suffering for a generation, and probably longer.

[One of the 99]

129. Medicare cuts are not part of the package.

And the chained CPI only reduces SS by an average of $50 per month after 20 years. But they hell with those who will have to suffer next month. They need to suffer so we can win an ideological victory.

[standingtall]

138. $50 a month can be a lot for someone on a fix income

Medicare cuts only aren't part of the package yet. And if we were to cut SS it wont stop with just $50. They will keep going after it until it's abolished. Cuts to social security should be a no go period.

[One of the 99]

143. Let's talk reality

Not some paranoid fanstasy. And the reality is that millions will lose benefits in 2 weeks. That should be the priority.

[olegramps]

156. Couldn't that be addressed in a seperate bill?

[One of the 99]

157. Sure it could.

But it won't be passed by the GOP House unless it is part of the whole deal.

[standingtall]

239. It is reality

Not some paranoid fantasy. Wall Street has been out to destroy social security. Yes millions will lose benefits in weeks temporarily. If we begin cutting social security those same people will end up losing benefits forever.

[One of the 99]

240. No it is not.

At this point it is pure fantasy. Nothing else.

[renie408]

163. I kind of think my husband losing his job should be a no go, period.

[octoberlib]

207. Food stamps and medicaid aren't involved in the fiscal cliff

They're shielded from sequestration. http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022038234

[joshcryer]

225. The fiscal cliff is smoke and mirrors!

This is about the Bush tax cuts. The Republicans want to trade the Bush tax cuts in order to fulfill the deficit / debt ceiling debate of 2011-2012. But the Democrats got it pushed well into Feb. or March if they want to really worry about it. You can juggle balance sheets forever.

So this is just a joke. Let the tax cuts expire, then let the Republicans go out and explain how the vast majority of Americans, the 95-99% or so, are having to have their taxes raised. It's really fucking simple.

[DonCoquixote]

127. I gladly jump

and fuck this country if the GOP does make them think that the cliff is a bad deal.

[Stardust]

131. Roll, Baby, roll.

[Coyotl]

133. The only way we will ever raise capital gains taxes.

[0rganism]

134. not victory, per se, but perhaps the beginning of victory

President Obama has to play this one carefully -- no give at all and it looks like he's being the obstructionist, too much give and the GOP house might just take him up on his offer (forcing the senate to run interference).

I appreciate that he's in a difficult spot and there's a win to be had if he maneuvers correctly, so it shouldn't surprise us that he might seem to be giving in at some points. However, this president -- hell, Democrats in general -- have a history of caving in and leaving the people who supported them high & dry, so even it it works out in our favor come January, I'm still fairly nervous about the process.

[alcibiades_mystery]

135. I appreciate your caution

But, do you think going over the cliff is better than not at this point?

[0rganism]

136. oh definitely, but it has to be done right or we lose the initiative

For the preznit and the Democrats, getting a really good deal is all about keeping the GOP acting like a bunch of stand-offish heartless pricks for the next 2 weeks, which isn't too hard since it comes naturally to them, without looking heartless and prickish themselves. Then in January, turn it around and work on something that actually benefits the people from the "bottom of the cliff", so to speak.

[donheld]

137. My 21,000th post says I'm in.

Let's go over the cliff!

[bluestateguy]

139. I have washed my hands of this non-existent problem

The events in Newtown demand our undivided attention.

[Oilwellian]

140. Early morning kick

[Not Sure]

141. Over the cliff

I'll gladly pay more in taxes to make sure the rich bastards pay their share.

[nolabels]

160. The prey has turned into the predator

I too would be quite happy to pay more if it means some rich bastards will have pay even a penny more.
The facts are though, is if we go over they will have to pay a lot more and that's when we get to watch them squirm

[ashling]

142. I don't think "victory" is a term that applies to thiis situation

just as it did not apply to the war in Iraq.

Unless, of course, you define victory as a situation which is less crappy
than anything that has been suggested in the negotiations

[Progressive dog]

146. No Deal!!!! n/t

[Harmony Blue]

147. No deal will be a

somber victory but the alternative is worse.

I agree with you alciblades_mystery.

[WillyT]

150. HUGE K & R !!! - NO DEAL !!!

[marble falls]

151. No deal!

[MyOpinion-2]

152. NO DEAL! NO DEAL! NO DEAL!

Off the curve, bump, cliff we go!

[bowens43]

153. better no deal then obamas current proposal....

[Coyotl]

154. THOU SHALT NO CHEAT THY ELDERS

It is just absolutely wrong and morally incomprehensible to CHEAT people living on 500-$1200 a year.

Means testing, FINE.

No cap FINE.

But to make the poorest and most vulnerable among us pay down the Bush War Deficit by cheating them is an unfathomable injustice.

[Panasonic]

155. It's past time to do some self-sacrifice.

And the Bush tax expires, and I want the Republicans to take ownership of how they think they still hold U.S. hostage.

[olegramps]

158. I have to agree. It is like trying to deal with the devil.

I really hate to say that I have come to a sad point in my life when I have absolutely no respect for the damn Republicans. Their greed and hatred is an abomination.

[Turbineguy]

159. It's a victory

for the republicans.

Failure to govern is success.

[Myrina]

161. You gotta stand for something, or you'll fall for anything.

~ MLK jr.

[pscot]

162. We doan need no stinking deal

[renie408]

164. God, I hope we don't get a deal. I am pretty resilient and can take losing my house.

And my small business. Which is what will most likely happen if we have another recession.

But I am going to save this thread and I am going to nail to the wall every single person in it that whines about the results of going over the fiscal cliff. I am going to pull it out every day and let all the people who are in this thread that lose their jobs or their homes CHEER over those losses because at least we 'won' this ideological victory.

And when I lose my house and my mother, who is on Social Security and is living with us, has a sharply reduced life, my whole family will at least be comforted that her SS increases are .05 x's higher than they would have been otherwise.

[Redfairen]

165. Great thread! *

[KansDem]

167. Yes to Cliff!

[dmosh42]

171. Aye!

[4dsc]

172. Say no to Plan B

I sure hope the president doesn't cave on us.

[sendero]

174. The best deal...

.. is no deal, since the Republicans are only concerned about the 1%.

Let's have some big cuts to our most wasteful entitlement, defense spending.

[DesertDiamond]

177. NO DEAL!!!

[rgbecker]

178. Over we go!

Taxes up...the more income the higher they go.
Spending cuts...billions from the Military Industrial Complex.

What's not to like?

[Agnosticsherbet]

180. Go over the cliff. Hit ground running on 01/01/2013

[santamargarita]

181. I'd like to kick Bonner's ass off the cliff just to...

demonstrate that there is not one.

[mfcorey1]

182. No deal!!! nt

[Whisp]

183. I wonder what Thelma and Louise would have done..

[harun]

184. There is no cliff. NO DEAL FTW!

[Whisp]

185. I think I agree, but...

what domestic cuts will be involved in the No Deal? I've lost track.

I do like the idea of all the tax cuts gone and military spending cut so much. I love those ideas (would like it much better if the rich didn't get those deals) but what is the price besides the unknown beyond that cliff?

[alcibiades_mystery]

189. $600 billion of across the board cuts to domsetic discretionary

$600 billion to military

Social security, Medicare, and Veteran's benefits excluded.

[joshcryer]

226. And you can juggle the books for months.

All the while constituents will be going apeshit.

Hell, the MIC alone would be calling up their lobbiests to get it sorted out.

[kimbutgar]

186. Let's Thelma and Louise if off the cliff

[Bradical79]

190. Not yet.

Some things will hurt in the short run, but hopefully it would set things up for budget wins in 2013 and beyond.

Even if we go over the "cliff", there's still room for failure. Democrats certainly aren't immune to the temptations of corporate money or the arguments of powerful lobbying groups.

[cese]

191. cese

No deal B4 the new year is TRULY a Victory

[hrmjustin]

197. Welcome to DU and I hope you enjoy the site.

[Odin2005]

192. GO OVER THE CLIFF!

[CapnSteve]

193. The Fiscal Myth

Stand firm...don't give in to those losers!

[Pryderi]

194. yep.

[Owl]

195. I'm in! Off the cliff!

[TeamPooka]

196. No Deal! Go over the cliff!

[andym]

198. If they can really reach a deal later then yes

otherwise, the increase in taxes for the middle class, the 10% discretionary spending across the board (eg, wonder how the regulatory agencies will fare given that many are already underfunded), and the loss of extended unemployment will be painful for many.

[RedstDem]

200. no deal is the best deal

[and-justice-for-all]

201. Yup! nt

[Rider3]

202. Let's go!

It's got to happen in order for things to get better. Let's just go.

[maveric56]

203. Yep

Obama seems to want to push this through too fast.

[truebrit71]

204. NO DEAL~!

[octoberlib]

206. No deal!

[Eric the Reddish]

208. DURec

[SpartanDem]

209. YAY RECESSION and PEOPLE LOSE UNEMPOLYMENT!!!

I not saying we need to take latest deal, there is going have to be a deal at some point. BUT there are some real consequences of going over cliff there is nothing to cheer over.

[Rain Mcloud]

211. Political Theater at its worst!

Repub strategy one rivatize everything and yes this especially includes social services.
Strategery number two:Make the tax cuts on the wealthy permanent.
Number three:The war on the poor and natural or man made disaster is a booming business,this is why we are becoming poorer so that they become richer and violence is on an upward spiral.

There is no such thing as a fiscal cliff for the Nation,only the money changers in the temple.
The divinity of Christ is questionable but his actions always were and are admirable,throw out the repubs and blue dogs and elect your local Progressive candidate.

DU REC.

[iandhr]

212. It depends

If we cave after the new year it would be just as bad.

[John2]

213. I think

Americans are spoiled. The sequestrian will accomplish what it was suppose to do. The only way to get congress from their Warmongering will be to cut their spending. That is the wast in my opinion, not Social Security or Medicare. There are plenty people already lost unemployment benefits if Congress hasn't notice. I also think the obstructionist habit of the Republican party needs to be broken. They should be looking out for the poor and middle class in their Districts, instead of people in corporate America or on Wall Street. They pacify people in their poor districts with earmarks and then serve people like the Kochs. Well, those earmarks are about to vanish. The Federal Government will be cutting them. It will be interesting to see how these Governors cope without Federal assistant, such as military spending in their Districts.

[WHEN CRABS ROAR]

214. Better than caving in.

[grandpamike1]

215. No deal

Let's go cliff jumping.

[Pachamama]

216. Yes - better to hit the curb w/ no deal than this Plan B for Bullshit....

The GOP is the one driving the car at the curb.....we are going to lose the hubcaps and there are going to be some bumpy moments....but the car will still drive and can be repaired later. But this Plan B and these other proposals involving Social Security changes are bullshit that will destroy the car. So what if the GOP blames us for driving the car against the curb.....its a lie of course, but that's what they do and do well....but President Obama, the Dems, need to to stand firm....and not compromise away the social security for seniors in any way....and Americans earning over $250k need to pay more in taxes - period.

[taught_me_patience]

218. I guess SS recipients don't give a shit about recessions

they get their checks anyway.

[Forrestted]

220. Come On Boys The Cliff Is Not That Steep

[joshcryer]

221. The only winning move is not to play.

Over the "cliff" is the only responsible, reasonable, logical action to take. There is no rational reason to give in to any proposals that isn't 100% what we want.

The Republicans shut down the House, we can too.

Print a ten trillion dollar platinum coin.

Invoke the 14th amendment (no debts can go unpaid).

Stop fucking being cowardly. Get on with it.

[humbled_opinion]

227. So we all have to pay a higher price?

I support this if and only if a tax cut plan for the middleclass is implemented right after the New Year... If the tax cuts don't happen I will not support this.

[alcibiades_mystery]

229. They might not happen

The assumption that they will is just that: an assumption. The further assumption that the GOP will get the blame if they don't is also an assumption.

[humbled_opinion]

241. Interesting because

I understand the GOP gets the blame if we go over fiscal cliff, and the country should blame them but I will squarely blame Democratic leaders in Congress and the President if there is not an immediate tax cut for the Middleclass..... In fact I will even be cynical enough to say that if that is true than it was planned all along by Obama.

[kiranon]

228. Cliff ahead. Parachute packed. It's ok.

Taxes go back to what they were for large income earners. Let's negotiate from there rather than cut social security benefits to help Boehner get a deal through the House. Frankly, I don't believe he can get his party members to support anything. A deal can only be made with Democrats and more moderate Republicans getting together. And, thereafter, Boehner is no longer the Speaker of the House. Given the nature of the far right members, he may not want to be Speaker. He will live to run another day for the position of Speaker after the right wing nuts are defeated in the next election and they will be.

[alcibiades_mystery]

230. Taxes go back to Clinton era rates for everybody.

[Milliesmom]

233. No Deal

Over we go!! Yahoo!!!!!

[libodem]

234. I'm back

Count me twice.

[mountain grammy]

235. I'll be Thelma, you be Louise. DRIVE!

[peace frog]

242. Done

[99th_Monkey]

236. Check! nt

[Eddie Haskell]

237. Give me the cliff.

[OverBurn]

238. No Deal is better than caving......... again.