After reading homophobic comments yesterday, it dawned on me

[EnergizedLib]

Homosexuality is not man-made.

But religion is.

[Biophilic]

1. Interesting thought.

[EnergizedLib]

2. I fail to see how I'm wrong

Since homosexuality has been found in other species besides this one.

Meanwhile, were the only species that I know of that preaches the worship of a deity and warns of eternal damnation if they do not conform.

I’m all for the free exercise of religion, per the First Amendment, but I stand by above statement believing that not as judgmental, but as pure fact.

[Biophilic]

14. Sorry, I didn't think you were wrong.

Your post just got my mind thinking about what you wrote and other similar things.

[BOSSHOG]

18. Another unseemly fact

Some organized religions in this country dabble in the affairs of state attempting to codify their religious beliefs while enjoying a tax exempt status because of those beliefs. The last thing Mike Johnson wants to hear is that Jesus Christ is in your office wanting to have a chat.

[usonian]

39. I believe that it's because of non-profit status. Could be wrong.

I view their dabbling as a reaction to loss of relevance (the 60's!) and trying to compensate by force when persuasion fell off a cliff.

[Ms. Toad]

19. There are lots of non-religious people who are homophobic -

And a number of religions which embrace members of the LGBTQI community.

[EnergizedLib]

21. I know they exist

But it seems to me the loud ones, at least, in the religious camp against the LGBTQ community.

[Ms. Toad]

25. Not any louder, just more organized.

When you clump a bunch of people together shouting a single message, it sounds louder than the individual voices - even if there are as many individual voices.

[TommyT139]

57. Thank you, Ms. Toad

It is so exhausting to hear how normalized anti-Christian bigotry, based in ignorance, has become in groups which otherwise think of themselves as progressive and educated.

I am not explicitly saying that's an issue here on DU...but anyone who wants to expand the alliance of people who want this country to survive should consider what a choice is put in front of people of faith: faith or politics -- where "politics" is essentially how a society employs organized power to help or harm other people.

Reinforcing this dynamic plays directly into the trap set by Republicans, theocrats, and Christian Dominionists, using their language and categories. It's shoddy and ineffective thinking, and excludes many people who want to help makes things better.

[dpibel]

63. Sad Christians

Very nearly as oppressed as straight white men.

Go ahead. Convince me that Dobbs is not a result of fundy Christian and Catholic activism.

That the current effort to drive LGTBQ people back in the closet is not based on Christian objections.

That the loudest, most influential Christians are not powerful.

The only answer to that is "no true Christian."

[TommyT139]

71. If your comment was to me

...you both missed my point, and proved it.

Or perhaps you meant to click somewhere else.

Have a nice life.

[dpibel]

73. No true Christian it is, then

[Ms. Toad]

75. Agreed.

Although I'd go a bit farther and say it is an issue. Any time I've been on a jury for anti-Christian bias the post has been left standing. Not to say that all alerted posts deserved the alert - but some did.

[summer_in_TX]

72. I do think the sincerely religious tend to humility.

In the Bible, it is named as one of the Fruits of the Spirit by which we are to recognize those who are true followers of Jesus.. That, along with numerous reference to pride and arrogance as sins, makes it very hard to put oneself forward. So they aren't publicity seekers.

The squeaky wheels get all the attention. So they are perceived as what "Christians" must be, when in fact they are far from it.

Just as a side note, my denomination (UMC) and many others recognize that Trump is trampling on our religious freedom and have a lawsuit pushing back on ICE efforts to arrest asylum seekers even at churches. We know that we are commanded to welcome the immigrant and ensure they are treated well. Numerous scriptures command it. For decades we've had a mission to the Texas border, and through those relationships we've built, we are engaged in accompanying those here seeking asylum to court hearings arranging for legal representation, welcoming them to our church (and supplying translators).

[Ms. Toad]

74. I'm a Quaker.

A few yearly meetings and meetings were early in the litigation game against Trump because of threatened ICE raids on places of worship. (Meeting is roughly equivalent to an individual church, and yearly meeting is a regional collection of meetings). You guys may have joined our suit, or started your own.

[summer_in_TX]

89. Quite likely.

What I read included a number of denominational entities. Maybe not an entire denomination but representative parts, like one district or parish.

[speak easy]

26. There was nothing particularly religious about the Nazis,

or Mao era China.

[TacosUberAlles]

44. There's a lot of religious particulars about the Nazis

Hans Kerrl was Hitler's Minister for Church Affairs, promoted a concept known as "Positive Christianity." It's a completely perverted & distorted form of Christianity that aligned Christian beliefs with Nazi ideology. Sound a little familar?

“Positive Christianity”

And then there's the "Reich Church".
The Nazis aimed to create a national "Reich Church," which would unify all Protestant faiths under the Nazi regime.
It wanted a fully "Nazified" church which would strip away parts of Christianity including the Bible which were not friendly to Nazi ideology. In other words, a literal cult.

The Reich Church

[Grins]

32. And at the top of their lungs! NM

[JT45242]

50. Look up open and affirming churches

There are a lot...across many faiths.

The hatred is manmade.

Almist every religion has tolerance and love central to its origins.

[EnergizedLib]

61. I get taken aback when I see kind and positive messages from churches

I used to that community receiving such hatred and negativity in the name of religion.

[JT45242]

70. I'm working at our booth at Pride tomorrow for a few hours

Trying to let people know that whatever hatred they may have experienced with other churches, that all are welcome.

But I grew up in a church that preached that hate and it did a lot of damage to my gay friends. Not a part of that denomination anymore.

So. I understand why so many people in the LGBTQ+ community do not trust and fear what masquerades as Christianity.

[ShazzieB]

84. I attended a local pride event just last Sunday where multiple open and affirming churches had booths.

There were at least three, including the Episcopal Church and the United Methodist Church. (I can't recall for sure what other denominations were represented, but those were definitely not the only ones.) I was heartened to see so many churches taking such a public stand on these issues.

It's also worth noting that both the Episcopal and United Methodist Churches have weathered upheavals wherein some local congregations that did not support the movement toward a more welcoming and affirming stance actually left their respective denominations to affiliate with less affirming ones. It's sad that some are so narrow minded, but I think it says something about the commitment to inclusivity of the churches that have remained part of their original denominations.

I have little patience for attacks on Christianity as a whole that lump together the entire universe of Christianity and all Christians everywhere for the attitudes and actions of some. It's simply empirically inaccurate to do so. Christianity, like all religions, is made up of humans, and humans, religious or not, are notoriously fallible. Yes, the homophobic and transphobic contigent is very loud, but it's unfair to blame those who are working hard against those attitudes for the bigotry of others.

[Lucky Luciano]

48. Religion is just a crutch used to hide their own personal bigotry.

“Oh, it’s not me. It’s the lord and I follow the lord.” Bs …they’re just bigots (I’m sure you agree).

I still remember one of my college acquaintances (Gary) who came from a working class background from Long Island raised by a single mother bc his dad died of Agent Orange complications. He had a couple of his hometown boys visiting. Another friend of ours was friends with some theater people and he took us all to some house party with those theater people. Well Gary and his friends were talking in their very loud Long Island accents about, “Hey! Look at all da fruits here.” “These fruits are cracking me up!”

Gary is light years from being religious. There are lots of Gary types out there.

Gary is now a successful ER doctor and hardcore MAGAt whose primary hobby is restoring older corvettes. He was able to become a doctor, but he couldn’t get the white working class ghetto mentality out of his head.

[SilverDawg]

3. Whenever I heard the so called "fact"

“homosexuality is a CHOICE” out of the mouths of the saintly religious, I came back with “no, RELIGION is a choice.”

Such as easy concept to understand.

[spike jones]

4. "You can safely assume you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.

"― Anne Lamott

[liberalla]

8. Perfect.

[Permanut]

55. And as George Carlin pointed out..

He always seems to need money.

[Seinan Sensei]

56. God created man in His own image

and man has been trying
to repay the favor ever since.
-Voltaire

[ProudToronto]

5. Some folks believe

that God. created religion, all living things, and the whole universe / earth.

And they believe this to be a fact.

Facts are a funny thing. Even if you announce that your facts are undeniable, someone may not agree.

[GiqueCee]

15. And if you suggest...

... that some sort of proof that an omnipotent deity knows all, and sees all, would be nice, you're shouted down with, "THAT'S WHY THEY CALL IT FAITH!" Ya can't win.
I've long maintained that the skeeziest weasel in the cave said to the biggest bully in the cave, "You be government and I'll be religion, and we'll have 'em by the short curlies 'til the end of time!"
H.L. Mencken reportedly said, "Religion is the greatest fomenter of hatred and intolerance in the history of humanity."
What's REALLY sickening is watching Republicans justify their malice toward anyone who's not a billionaire, by invoking the name of Jesus, even though their words and actions are the total antithesis of everything The Nazz ever taught.
In closing, that evil fuck, Vance Boelter, who shot and wounded the Hoffmans, and murdered Minnesota State Representative Melissa Hortman, her husband, and their golden retriever, was, of course, a Trump-humper, and, according to friends, a very religious man.
Pretty well explains it all.

[mdbl]

16. It's an argument with no basis in fact

Belief systems are just that - beliefs. One can "believe" anything. It doesn't make it true.

[GiqueCee]

78. My point exactly. nt

[Towlie]

46. And they're right, it's faith. Faith is defined as belief held in spite if a lack of evidence.

[efhmc]

29. I think you have all living things and the creation of religion transposed.

[Jirel]

53. Not at all.

Humanity’s imaginary gods are a useless waste of time, money, and energy, and are only lived as an excuse to be cruel to those not in their stinking cults.

[ShazzieB]

85. Well, THAT is an incredibly broad statement.

Make of that observation what you will.

I am not comfortable making such categorically broad and absolutist judgments myself, about religion or anything else, because I think it's just about impossible for a statement that broad to be fully accurate across the board. There are always exceptions.

Any statement that "ALL (fill in the blank) is/are ALWAYS (fill in the blank)" tends to make me uncomfortable, because such statements are very unlikely to be 100% accurate, in my experience. The world is not such a black and white place as that. When I look around, I see a palette of endless shadings of gray.

[GiqueCee]

77. Whatever gets you through the night...

... I just have zero patience with those who think their "closely-held beliefs" entitle them to impose their will on others.

[haele]

30. The primary difference between the concept of God(s) or not

Is in the nature of the believer.
Does the potential believer need potentially falsifiable proof to believe (i.e., logical belief/disbelief - following the scientific method)?
Does the believer need a personal justification to believe (i.e., emotional belief - faith gets them through troubles and pain)?
Does the believer truly care one way or another, or are they just paying lip service to get along with the group - or using the group belief as a justification for a power grab?
It's not necessarily the god(s), religion or cult, it's the believers that make the difference.

[EnergizedLib]

42. This is where I disagree

When you have cultures, civilizations, life on this planet predating any sort of organized religion, when you have marriage predating Christianity, you cannot say something is a strictly religious concept or strictly Christian concept.

Again, no other species I know of, except the human species, partakes in organized religion, but other species are found to have engaged in homosexuality, thus rendering it is as something other than exclusive to humans.

I do not believe such a statement to be judgment or condemnation of religion, but just fact.

[edhopper]

6. Religion might be as biologically dictated as Homosexuality

But the specific gods and beliefs are man made. And definitely a choice.

[mwmisses4289]

7. A friend used to say

that god said to humans let me help you form a religion and the devil said let me help you organize it.

[soldierant]

60. Oh, I like that.

I always say it's not religion but the abuse of it which is the problem. There are plenty of religious people who don't abuse it, but because they don't commit atrocities, no one notices. I like to think I'm one.

[ProudToronto]

9. If someone were to say

homosexuality is a choice, who is the great arbiter that says this opinion is not allowed, could never be considered a fact ?

[Heidi]

79. Did you not read the DU Terms of Service when you registered? That opinion is not allowed at DU, and for good reason.

From the DU Terms of Service:

Racism, sexism, homophobia, transphobia, anti-Semitism, Islamophobia, or other forms of bigoted intolerance are not permitted.

Why we have this rule: Democratic Underground is a diverse community which includes people of every race, sex, religious belief (or lack thereof), sexual orientation, gender identity, body type, disability, age, etc. We want to promote a welcoming atmosphere for all of our members, and do not want to provide a platform for bigotry.


https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=termsofservice

[Heidi]

82. The "great arbiter" here is the DU Terms of Service.

https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=termsofservice

[Johnny2X2X]

10. When someone says it's a choice

I answer back, "Oh really, so tell me about when you chose to be straight?" If I know them well enough and have a social relationship with them I might add in, "So you would have sex with a man? That's totally appealing to you, but you choose not to? Sounds like you might be bisexual dude." If it's a close friend who says such nonsense I might be even more crude.

[Brainfodder]

23. If homophobe squawking is male? I ask them if they are fans of WWE, and if they say yes, I laugh in their face & leave.

They have no idea?

[John1956PA]

37. Ha! That is great.

In a similar line of thought, back in the early 1970s, some psychologist or similarly educated person suggested that males who are fanatical about watching football on TV have latent homosexual inclinations. I do not have an opinion on that hypothesis. However, I got a chuckle out of certain sports broadcasters raging against that suggestion.

[ProudToronto]

11. That's not really

an overly scientific method.

What if someone says “I chose to be straight” ?

Exactly how do you prove them wrong ?

[hlthe2b]

13. I believe biology rules on this issue...

BUT, there is some "choice" issue that arises with those who are bisexual, which does complicate things a bit. Likewise, a choice issue for those who remain celibate. The issue with the person who claims they "choose to be heterosexual," which either means they are fighting their core biology or that their core biology is that of heterosexuality. None of those examples, though, means that biology does not drive one's core sexuality.

[Doodley]

33. Good comment. They protesteth too much and perhaps they reveal their fears that may be driven by their own desires.

[EnergizedLib]

22. I speak from experience

I’m naturally attracted to women, didn’t choose to be. I can’t flip a switch and start being attracted to men like I am women.

[stillcool]

34. Prove them wrong?

You don't. They prove it to themselves.

[ProudToronto]

12. Also,

the God I’m familiar with says not to hate anyone.
Doesn’t mean you can’t think somebody / something is wrong. But hate is not required as part of the discussion.

[Wounded Bear]

17. Man created god in his own image...

and attributed to him all the character defects of a 10 year old brat.

-paraphrased from Heinlein

[Diamond_Dog]

20. "Your religion does not prohibit ME from anything; it prohibits YOU .... Learn the Difference."

[Renew Deal]

28. That doesn't stand up to scrutiny

It's easily disprovable. I'm not even trying to make a religious argument. It's just not true based on evidence that is easy to find.

[dpibel]

64. Too sophisticated for me

What is the easy evidence to find that someone else's religion prohibits me from doing anything?

Not joking. I don't think of myself as a remarkably slow person, and I can't figure out what you're saying.

[ShazzieB]

86. Yes, you raise a very good question.

Where is that "easy evidence"? I don't see it either.

The way I look at it, no one else's religion prohibits me from doing anything, until and unless it gets enacted into civil law that is enforced on everyone by the government.

What someone else believes is their business, afaic, until they start trying to make their beliefs the law of the land. The latter is something I will always fight against.

[AllaN01Bear]

24. i smile when ppl ask me when did u reaelize you were gay, i come back and ask when did u realize u were straight?

i also laugh at the rediculus statement" he went gay"" no one goes gay. my late mom knew all along but didnt say anything. on going gay, can a zebra change its stripes or can a leopoard change its spots ?

[Marcuse]

27. Michelangelo, Creation of Adam 1512

[Omnipresent]

31. There doesn't seem to be any religious texts to hamper the God fearing busybodies?

Something like, “Mind your own business or go straight to Hell!”

[ProudToronto]

36. Oh I don't know about that .....

There are a lot of nice little gems in religious texts like -

-Cast the first stone

-The beam in your own eye

-Do unto others

You just have to be honest that they’re right there to be read, and are supposed to be followed by us.

A little accuracy with the announcements and pronouncements is always nice.

[stopdiggin]

41. you are correct. and THAT one quite easily demonstrated/proved ...

there's also a reference somewhere about 'flapping gums' ...
might not have been a religious text per se .. ?

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

[ProudToronto]

35. So far I see nothing but

Opinions, anecdotes, and random quotes / thoughts from random people.
With a heaping helping of “I believe this so it has to be true and an absolute fact”.
I’m not even trying to claim that I’m right or anybody else is wrong. I’m just wondering where the logic and reasoning went to.
We really need some amount of proof as we announce all of our favorite “facts”.

Not to mention there’s just a lot of hate for religion being used here as “proof “. Might as well just say “religious is stupid, there that proves my facts”.

[stopdiggin]

38. I read through the entire string (thus far .. )

can't say as I got much out of it. ( not even particularly interesting as a debate? ) I guess it's always possible others derived substance or value ... But, I mostly walked away thinking, 'waste of time .. '

( incidentally - fairly agnostic here - on what I consider to be something of a continuum for most people. but, "nice to meet you anyway." )

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

[Skittles]

66. HUUUUUUUUUUGE waste of time

yes INDEEEEEEEEED

[Skittles]

65. you sound very defensive

yes indeed

[Ping Tung]

40. Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man. Thomas Paine

If one feels the need to have a God, why not pick a kind one from the millions of Gods available?

[harumph]

81. A cruel man fashions for himself a cruel God.

[ProudToronto]

43. I think it's fairly kind

That forgiveness is always available if one truly repents for their bad works.

It’s essentially helping people to stop doing things that are wrecking their lives, and shaming them, and hurting others.

The Old Testament is a little rough, as are some other religions books. But the New Testament is a good bit kinder.

[EnergizedLib]

45. Yet, that one Old Testament reading in Leviticus

Somehow makes it okay to police others for their preferences.

[Hellbound Hellhound]

47. I think both are man-made, for varying permutations of "Man Made".

Religion came about as a means to comprehend and conceptualize theories or concepts that had no clear answer. I believe even the modern Roman Catholic Church accepts this as true, in that "For everything we cannot prove, Religion and Faith answer". I paraphrase, but a quote like that was made fairly similarly but I can't remember where from. Anyways, religion, or rather the belief in an afterlife of some kind, was a way for primitive humanity to conceptualize the concept of death in a way that wasn't existentially based. In essence, early humans needed to find a way to justify their existence and in embracing religion (of some sort or another), they were able to eliminate the threat of existential dread and suicidal ideation, and only millennia later was religion turned into what we consider it today. See Stonehenge or the Pyramids for an example.

Likewise, it's my opinion and generally (but not universally accepted) fact that if homosexuality is genetic, AKA "Born this way", then it's a mutation, as modern understanding of evolution would classify homosexuality as an abnormal mutation of genes. Vast industrialization and medical modernization allow people like homosexuals to exist in a climate where, if left to their own devices, they'd die off due to lack of ability to procreate. Homosexuals as a whole are man made by virtue of population and mutation, but homophobia is not. This is only possible with a rapid and rampant reproduction of what would be considered "Straight" people, as mutations can only develop in breeding pairs (I.E., male/female interactions), therefore the higher the breeding population (And by extension, the more "artificial" the society and enabling of breeding) the greater potential for mutation. It's simply an "In group or out group" mechanic indicative of evolutionary traits in our early history, where it became learned to the genetic level that "out" groups don't belong. It's essentially racism, just based in genitals; "Us versus them." In this case, "Procreators versus non-procreators". "Humanity versus Inhumanity".

It sounds harsh but it's a strictly logical and historical analysis of what we currently know of human evolution. Religion came about as a method to quantify what could arguably be called a meaningless existence, and since people tend to try to justify the "Why" of life they embrace it wholeheartedly, while homosexuality came about as a function of rampant overpopulation and enabling of genetic manipulation through selective breeding and artificial genetics with the support of aggressive socio-economic policies.

One came about from society trying to understand existence, the other came about from random mutation and overpopulation. Both are technically man-made.

[dpibel]

67. Unintentional (I think) hilarity

You believe that homosexuality is a modern thing?

Or you believe that the world was overpopulated in, say the time of Classical Greece.

Because they had them homo sexuals back then.

And you do realize that "an abnormal mutation of genes" may be interpreted by some as...what's the word?...oh, yes: homophobic.

I think you're a tiny bit out over your skis here.

[hunter]

87. Most bees and ants cannot reproduce. Nevertheless these species persist.

Many non-social animals have high reproductive rates and most of their offspring die before reaching reproductive age.

Humans are social animals. There's no reason for each and every one of us to reproduce.

It's better, in fact, if we do not.

Contrary to certain myths, human children and their parents are dependent on their communities for their survival.

Most obviously, homosexuality does not preclude procreation except in societies that actively torture, kill, and persecute homosexuals.

Equating homosexuality with a "mutation" is offensive -- it's a trait that's existed throughout human history and millions of years beyond that. It's part of who we are as humans, no different than the color of our eyes or the hues of our skin.

We can accept and celebrate our diversity as humans or we can suffer.

[ZDU]

51. Religion is fucked

Empower yourself. Free yourself from religionists and the shackles of evangelicalism and holy-pushers. A pusher is a pusher... is a pusher

[Skittles]

69. biggest child groomers on the planet

yes indeed

[Nigrum Cattus]

52. 99% of "religious" people are brain washed as children

to believe whatever "faith" they were indoctrinated into.
The only real belief is Pagan, worship of mother earth.

[ProudToronto]

54. Well there you go.

There’s some well researched and documented input to the discussion.

I’m sure that 99% figure is strongly established.

[dpibel]

68. So the number's not 99

But you do, I'm sure, acknowledge this:

For example: "Parental religiosity is consistently found to be the single strongest predictor of child religiosity over the life course (e.g., Myers 1996; Smith and Snell 2009).

You surely can't believe that the average person (or even, as in your case, the above-average person) simply stumbles upon a god and a religion on their own dime. That it's as likely a Catholic will end up a Baptist as vice versa.

So you're really here criticizing hyperbole in informal argumentation.

As opposed to really challenging the underlying message: Kids grow up to believe what their parents believe.

[ShazzieB]

88. A lot of kids do grow up to believe what their parents believe.

But quite a few people who were raised to follow one religious path or another do not. I know scads of people, including myself*, who took a different path, becoming atheist or agnostic or gravitating toward a different expression of religion than what they were raised with.

*raised with Baptist fundamentalism but now in the process of becoming Episcopalian

[TommyT139]

58. Comments replying to a particular topic?

Here, or elsewhere online?

I've mostly seen anti trans stuff, given the news -- and not much here, to be clear -- be ause of the Supreme Court decision.

[EnergizedLib]

59. I saw people on Twitter

Approving the cutting of funding for the Trevor Project and supporting gay kids dying.

[Nululu]

62. Religion is the root of all evil.

[Duncanpup]

76. It was introduced into Bible translation's in 1946.

https://lgbtq.yale.edu/posts/2025-01-30-new-documentary-1946-the-mistranslation-that-shifted-culture

[Heidi]

83. Thank you for this! 🩷

Watching now.

[William769]

80. I would argue that Homosexuality is God made.