General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsDo you think Trump cheated in the last election?
If not, why do you think he never cheated?
If affirmative, how do you think he cheated?
| 289 votes, 10 passes | Time left: Unlimited | |
| Yes | |
259 (90%) |
|
| No | |
30 (10%) |
|
| 10 DU members did not wish to select any of the options provided. | |
| Show usernames
Disclaimer: This is an Internet poll |
|
= new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight:
NoneDon't highlight anything
5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
MustLoveBeagles
(14,340 posts)I think he had help from Eloon.
luvallpeeps
(1,264 posts)He also cheated family members out of their inheritance. If he can cheat, he will.
I believe between voter suppression, and vote counting he finagled something. He and Musk and who knows who.
kentuck
(115,019 posts)..and partly Elon buying votes in the battleground states. In some states, he made public his giveaway checks of a million dollars to selected people. What did they have to do to get that million dollars? That would be a good place to start the inquiry, in my opinion.
True Dough
(25,529 posts)Yes, of course!
LoisB
(12,189 posts)the other states.
amerikat
(5,198 posts)did the dirty work. Trump thanked him for it.
canetoad
(20,001 posts)But I believe Trump and Musk had a lot of help from State level repubs, various functionaries, some unethical lawyers. I'm sure there were many, many people involved carrying out different shenanigans.
Bluetus
(2,114 posts)Americans have a right to know what was meant by those statements.
Fiendish Thingy
(21,818 posts)As well as the Wisconsin Supreme Court race he was so heavily invested in, both financially and emotionally.
It doesn’t add up.
Trump didn’t say what you are claiming he said- he didn’t say anything specific about tabulation systems.
kentuck
(115,019 posts)They wouldn't have to vote for anyone else.
That is an interesting angle, in my opinion.
Fiendish Thingy
(21,818 posts)And would be easily prosecutable in those swing states with Dem AG’s.
His million dollar giveaways were rigged lotteries for people who had already voted.
Absolutely no evidence he arranged for payments in exchange for votes, before someone voted.
This kind of nonsense doesn’t help us win future elections, it’s just a coping mechanism for painful election losses.
You want to prevent voter suppression shenanigans?
Then put the word out to every candidate that sends you a fund raising email that from now on, you will only contribute to candidates who support killing the filibuster and expanding the courts, because that is the only way voter rights will be protected moving forward,
kentuck
(115,019 posts)Don't you find it a little odd that so many folks voted for Trump but did not vote down the ballot? I don't think it is as easy to dismiss as you do. But that is why we have this discussion group, I suppose?
Fiendish Thingy
(21,818 posts)Especially for irregular voters who only vote in presidential elections, and then inconsistently.
That’s why Marc Elias, voter rights crusader and the lawyer for the Harris campaign’s election challenges said there is no “there” there.
Do you not trust the Dem secs of state to notice if something is amiss and investigate? Do you think they know less than random “experts” on the internet? (That’s what 2020 election deniers believe)
I encourage you to get information from a wide variety of sources, and not just discussion boards.
Democracy Docket, Elias’ voter rights organization, sends out emails almost every day with summaries of current court cases on voter rights (you might have to make a small donation to get on the mailing list, but it’s a good cause), for a subscription fee, you get detailed articles about all issues and court cases. He also has a you tube channel.
Wiz Imp
(8,553 posts)than there were for the US Senate race. That is about 1% of total votes.
In Pennsylvania in 2012, there were about 126,000 more votes for President than for the US Senate Race. In 2012, that was over 2% of the total votes.
So does that mean Obama must have cheated in 2012? Of course not. It was not unusual to have votes for President but not other races. The fact that in 2024 that number (percentage wise) was less than half the figure from 2012, should prove conclusively to the conspiracy theorists that there was absolutely nothing remotely questionable about "so many people voting for President but not down ballot races".
Unfortunately, most of them will continue to believe that the difference between President and down ballot race votes somehow proves Trump stole the election.
Fiendish Thingy
(21,818 posts)
EdmondDantes_
(1,272 posts)Mountainguy
(2,145 posts)is just 2020 in reverse. The things I hear on this board are the same things I laughed at people on twitter saying back then.
Response to kentuck (Reply #18)
Wiz Imp This message was self-deleted by its author.
Bluetus
(2,114 posts)The more hacking you do, the greater likelihood of exposure. There are reports that Panaltir's role in this endeavor was to choose the targets carefully so as to get just enough votes to win, but no more than necessary, and to do it in a way that covered tracks. That is just an accusation. We don't have proof because AFAIK, nobody has done even the most basic steps of doing manual recounts in any of the areas with peculiar results (such as the Dem Senator receiving many votes while Harris received zero votes.)
Trump and Musk lie a lot, so these could have been idle boasts. But there were specific reports that Musk was able to declare the outcome hours before polls even closed. We need to understand that Musk, Palantir, et al are amoral, sleazy, and very clever people. When Trump says that they know how to manipulate the tabulation process, we should take that seriously.
As far as the down-ballot, Musk got everything he needed by electing Trump. Although he is not known for his personal restraint, I think it is safe to assume that people around him were keenly aware of the risks of exposure and held the line.
Fiendish Thingy
(21,818 posts)Just as Rudy said in court re: 2020 election theft.
Same amount of evidence.
Are you saying you don’t trust the Dem secs of state in the swing states to honestly conduct audits and determine which “anomalies”, if any, deserve further investigation?
Are you saying random “experts” on the internet are better qualified to make that determination than the Dem secs of state/AG’s/governors?
Because that is the same claim made by 2020 election deniers.
Bluetus
(2,114 posts)Because they have not. It isn't a question of trust. it is a question of malfeasance.
Clearly they have taken the position that the optics are bad, even to do a transparent audit. It is the usual "let's just move on" posture that has gotten us to this point.
Since when has an election audit been a bad thing?
Fiendish Thingy
(21,818 posts)Are you saying those audits were dishonest?
You want to believe the election was stolen (or is that stollen?), and so you believe anybody on the internet who supports your predetermined conclusion, whether their theories are tethered to reality or not.
As Dean Wormer once said, that’s no way to go through life.
Bluetus
(2,114 posts)What you are missing is that if Musk/Palantir came up with a new approach to tamper with tabulation and to conceal that, then old audit methods would be useless. We need to go back and actually count the ballots. That is the only way to be sure that there wasn't tampering somewhere in the chain of custody, and of course, that is only possible in the places with verifiable paper documents.
Fiendish Thingy
(21,818 posts)And that Musk/Palantir are infallible geniuses.
And you must think that you and that rest of the 2024 election deniers have some sort of “special knowledge” that us non-deniers in the reality-based community don’t have. (which is how most kooky CT’s develop and are sustained)
Just because you can imagine something, and type it on the internet, doesn’t make that thing plausible, possible, or probable.
Except where required by law in close races (< .5% in most states), recounts must be requested and paid for by one of the candidates. Audits , on the other hand, are done routinely in most states following an election. AFAIK, audits are done in every swing state with a Dem sec of state.
AFAIK, the Harris campaign, and their lawyer Marc Elias, head of Democracy Docket, did not request a single recount.
This kooky CT nonsense does not help us face the horrors, threats, and challenges of the present moment, nor does it help prepare us to win future elections. This kooky CT nonsense only protects the election deniers from the painful feelings that would result from accepting the tragic reality that millions of 2020 voters stayed home in 2024, and Trump won a second term.
Bluetus
(2,114 posts)Yes. That's exactly the point. And not a single Dem candidate asked for a recount. And the states/counties will only do an "audit", which is useless if there has been a chain of custody issue.
With the ESS and perhaps other systems, there are very definitely vulnerable point ins the chain of custody that can only be revealed by an end-to-end recount. That need not be a massive undertaking, considering that there are areas that appear to have abnormal patterns. The counts could be focused on those places. But it really is outrageous for you or anybody else to assert that there was no tampering at the same time you admit there was no recounting.
Fiendish Thingy
(21,818 posts)Like I said, you must think the secs of state are a bunch of dumb hicks who can’t or won’t think of the necessary procedures to run free and fair elections, and that only you and your internet “experts” have thought of the potential loopholes that might be exploited by bad actors.
I trust the Dem secs of state in the swing states were well prepared, and carried out their duties with diligent precision. I believe they know more about running elections and potential vulnerabilities than the election deniers from both 2020 and 2024.
Bluetus
(2,114 posts)First, understand that the technical resources available to Musk and Palantisr are thousands of times beyond what any SoS can stand up.
Second, modern Dems don't contest ANYTHING. It is all part of "the adults in the room" mythology.
Third, any such recount would immediately be met with screams and physical threats, especially if the Republicans have something to hide. The Dem SoS would not be inclined to rusk their own political careers pursuing a recount that does not benefit them directly Indeed, no recount or audit is going to change the outcome now. The only reason for doing this is to give the people confidence that we actually have fair elections. To me, that's enough of a reason, but maybe not for others.
Fiendish Thingy
(21,818 posts)Millions of 2020 voters stayed home in 2024, and millions more (total 90 million) who were eligible didn’t vote either.
That is probably the most significant factor that impacted the outcome of the 2024 election.
You can continue to pretend you’re part of the Smartest Person In The Room Club when it comes to election integrity, and I’ll remain here in the reality based community, facing the stark challenges ahead.
Bluetus
(2,114 posts)Last edited Tue Jun 24, 2025, 04:26 PM - Edit history (1)
Trump said Musk had this in the bag. That's the CT right there. All I'm asking is for the election people to do basic diligence so that people can have confidence that Trump and Musk are not, in fact, rigging the tabulation systems as they said they were doing.
And I'll save you the trouble of getting Trump's exact quote. If you are at all astute in following politicians in general and Trump in particular, you will know that Trump always uses the "mobster" style of communications, as in "nice business you have here, shame if there were a fire."
I don't understand how any intelligent person could hear that and not conclude there is a very good chance that there was an attempt (maybe a successful) attempt to rig the tabulation part of the process. And I don't understand why you don't think it is important to find out. But you do you.
Fiendish Thingy
(21,818 posts)You don’t trust that Dems secs of state, including in Pennsylvania, did their “basic diligence” in monitoring and auditing the elections in their state.
I do.
There is absolutely no evidence the secs of state did not do their “basic diligence”; the absence of hand recounts is not evidence that the secs of state were derelict in their duties, or ignored the “smoking gun” of what you consider to be Trump’s public confession.
We have “found out”. The secs of state did their jobs and determined Trump won. You can’t accept it, and will grasp at any straw any “expert” puts forth. Any criteria that are met will be replaced with additional, more unrealistic criteria.
That’s how election denialism works.
Bluetus
(2,114 posts)Trump said it as plainly as he has said anything, that Musk got deep into the process of counting votes. I can assure you that the people available to Musk and Palantir are 1000 times more astute about technology things than anybody working for any SoS in any state in the country.
That's not a knock on the SoS. They just aren't technology people. They are generally lawyers. And they have, thousands of times in the past, allowed the election machine companies to do things that no legitimate IT professional would ever allow. It isn't because they are dumb or incompetent. It is because they don't understand technology, and I get the feeling you don't either. I have a CSCI degree and 40-year career in mission-critical computer systems, and I have also worked a dozen elections using ESS machinery, so I really do know a little bit about these things.
Fiendish Thingy
(21,818 posts)You must contact the DNC, Marc Elias, and SoS’s of the swing states with your findings and your concerns, informing them of your qualifications and your credentials.
Perhaps an offer of a power point presentation highlighting the vulnerabilities of their various systems, dumbed down to kindergarten level since they don’t understand technology. Perhaps a separate conference with their IT teams (if they have them and don’t just contract out) would be warranted.
Godspeed, and please keep us updated on the status of your critical mission, as it appears that you are one of the few on our side who understand the crisis we are facing.
Bluetus
(2,114 posts)what Trump has said in plain English. I think the operative expression here is "pearls before swine" Matthew 7:6.
Fiendish Thingy
(21,818 posts)I just figured, ya know, instead of casting them before swine like me and the rest of the unwashed internet masses, you would present your pearls of wisdom to people who could, you know, actually do something about it.
Is that something you have considered?
Bluetus
(2,114 posts)Last edited Wed Jun 25, 2025, 03:40 PM - Edit history (1)
Our election systems have always been loaded with vulnerabilities,. As a society, we have always accepted this trade-off between fraud and convenience as a necessary compromise, especially considering that the ethos of this country from the very start was to not trust the rabble to make the leadership decisions. We give lip service to "democracy", but we have always erected barriers to legitimate democracy, be they 3/5ths compromise, Jim Crow laws, gerrymandering, the electoral college, the Senate composition, women's suffrage, the Daley operation or "lost" ballots.
What has changed? Most of the barriers/fraud were limited to local cases that did not have massive national consequences. But everything (allegedly) changed with the 2024 election.
Do you know who Peter Theil is? Have you heard of a company called Tripp Lite? Do you know what Palantir does as a business? You will not understand this situation if you don't understand all three of those linchpins.
So, let me summarize. Peter Theil is one of the leading "tech bros". Starting about a decade ago, he became central to this emerging gaggle of like-minded tech bros (including Musk) who do not believe in elected governments. They see a world that is run entirely by tech bros who control the media, the satellites, the elections, government budgets and taxation, the banking systems, everything.
About that time, Thell, Leo, and others started executing strategies to take over our government. Leo concentrated on taking over the judiciary, and especially the Supreme Court. and has succeeded 100%. Theil was more interested in elections. He backed Vance as a Senatorial candidate, and won that the old-fashioned way, by BUYING the candidate and injecting an overwhelming amount of money into the campaign.
Somewhere in that era, these people, including Musk, convinced themselves that there was a cheaper and more certain way to win elections. It was based on the fact that the primary election systems, most notably ESS, are controlled by RW partisans who shared the Theil philosophy. It was at that time that Theil, a venture capitalist who specialized in funding the highest of high tech firms took a highly peculiar interest in the Tripp Lite company. Tripp Lite is about the lowest tech company that can be considered a "tech" company at all. They make uninterruptible power supplies -- basically a box of batteries. Everything I have said so far is a matter of fact and well reported (albeit without seeing the patterns of connected dots.) From this point forward, there is some speculation, but I can assure you that every word of it is 100% plausible, if all the right villains agree to cooperate. And that is exactly what is alleged.
The Tripp Lite connection is the one that is so far from the normal pattern that it sets off sirens and alarms. Tripp Lite was purchased by Eaton in 2021, right after Trump lost to Harris. Why would a company like Eaton give a s*** about a boring UPS maker? Makes no sense. What is alleged is that the people behind Eaton, Palantir, ESS, SpaceEx and several other Tech Bro havens have been acting in a highly coordinated manner.
Why would Tripp Lite even be a factor in any of this? This is where I will lose most non-tech people. ESS and the other election system vendors make a big deal about how their voting systems are not connected at all to the outside world. They also boast that their software is independently certified by experts and there are PHYSICAL protections that prevent tampering without detection. And that was the case, I believe.
That's where Tripp Lite comes in. The ds450 and ds850 tebulators are often configured to use a Tripp Lite DIN850AC UPS or comparable. While ESS will sell the tabulators without UPS, it is a natural proposition to say "Of course, you will want to protect your tabulators from power outages, right?" It is alleged that these Tripp LIte UPSes became the mode for enabling a back door into many tabulators throughout the swing states. Is this possible? How is this possible?
The simple answer is, "Yes, it is possible if you can get the right people to do crimes with you." It is common for UPS systems to have a digital connection with the host they support. Normally, this is simply to keep the host aware of the power status. In the event of an extended power outage, the UPS can tell the host device (the tabulator in this case) to do an orderly shutdown to preserve data. It has been reported that there was an unauthorized patch applied to ESS systems in the September 2024 timeframe (coincidentally when Trump and Musk started saying their vote-counting plan out loud), and that this patch enhanced that protocol between the tabulators and their UPS such that the processor in the UPS could gain root level control over the tabulator. With root level control, the UPS would be able to do anything. It could see all the votes as they were being scanned. It could change vote totals and could erase any trace of this vote flipping. The only thing it could not do is actually modify the paper ballot. So if there was such tampering, it COULD be discovered, simply by running all the ballots through a tabulator known not to be compromised, or counting them by hand. But that was never done. Not a single recount anywhere as far as I know.
For that scenario to work smoothly and secretly, the rogue software would have to be loaded into the UPS systems in many locations months in advance. It would be hard to do that without arousing suspicion, because that would typically require an election worker to apply the patch at the direction of ESS. That is where the SpaceX connection comes into play. To complete the picture, it is alleged that about that same time (late summer 2024,) Starlink activated a feature that allowed the Theil/Palantir people to connect with those rogue UPS systems via a satellite service that appears to the UPS as if it were just another cell phone network. If that worked, it would be possible for the Palantir people to develop vote-flipping strategies, and command those strategies in real time, never having to physically touch any voting equipment in any voting place, and never having to ask any election officials for anything.
That is exactly what is alleged. It may sound far-fetched, but 100% of what I mentioned is technically possible. And my whole point in all of these messages you have been pooh-poohing, is that if correct, there was MASSIVE multi-state fraud in the Presidential election of 2024. We won't change that, but the key point is that they can and WILL do it again. And these allegations could easily be confirmed simply by re-scanning original ballots on tabulators known to be clean. That's the whole point. I don't understand why anybody would be opposed to this.
So instead of attacking me, why don't you explain why you are opposed to finding out if any of these allegations are true.
Fiendish Thingy
(21,818 posts)Why haven’t they sounded the alarm?
You know a lot about election technology- how much do you know about the people and systems in place for election security in each of the swing states? I mean you know the model numbers of the tabulators and the UPS’s- do you know if the swing states even use these vulnerable devices?
Wouldn’t that be the logical place to start an inquiry, finding out which states use these vulnerable systems, which don’t, and what personnel are in place to monitor the systems, what their training and qualifications are?
Bluetus
(2,114 posts)In my state, all election system selection and administration is done on a per-county basis. As an election worker, you never talk with anybody from the state. It is always the county board people. The state has no involvement. And the county election board's IT people are trouble-shooters (very conscientious and dedicated.) They are not systems engineers or fraud monitors.
The state officials may quality the acceptable vendors and equipment, may help with the funding, and may have the authority to overrule or fire local election boards, but elections are run locally almost everywhere. I bet every one of the 7 swing states runs their elections at the county level.
But it is really is irrelevant. The scenario that is alleged would work exactly the same way whether run at the state or local level. Please go back and read that again. The election system companies deployed patches that were not approved at ANY level. And if the tabulators were able to open up root level access via the cell phone adapter in the Tripp Lites (running through Starlink instead of a terrestrial cell network), nobody would know, regardless whether they were at the state or local level. In the alleged scenario, this all was fully tested by September 2024 and implemented without notifying anybody or asking anybody's permission). Starlink is significant because Musk has 100% control over that and could wipe out any traces of such activity via Starlink. Otherwise, there is nothing special about using satellites in this scenario.
Let's turn it around. Let's say you are a state or local IT person. You have run 25 elections with ESS equipment that has always been promised to have no connection with the outside world. On election night, you received the tabulations of election-day results, hand-delivered on thumb drives. This was accompanied by paper tape logs printed by each tabulator, and they all matched their respective thumb drives exactly. In the weeks after the election, you examined a sample of tabulators and they all had exactly the same numbers as reported on election night. And you never scanned any precinct's paper ballots because all the numbers looked OK and nobody asked for a recount.
As an IT professional, why would you take any further steps?
You wouldn't, unless you heard Trump and Musk both boast about doing exactly the scenario I have described. But even then, as an IT staffer, you have no basis for challenging anything.
The point of all of this is that there is a highly plausible way the alleged scheme could have succeeded. I should note that there was also a PR element to this scheme. If you look around a little, you will find videos of the Founder of Palantir on CNBC and elsewhere IN SEPTEMBER 2024, talking about how they are seeing the Harris numbers fall rapidly in every swing state. That helped condition the battlefield to accept the outcome they were (allegedly) creating. https://www.cnbc.com/video/2024/10/25/palantir-co-founder-joe-lonsdale-on-musk-putin-conversations-state-of-2024-election.html
Maybe I am wrong. Maybe none of this happened. Maybe Trump, Musk, and Lonsdale were just talking BS in September. But if any of this is true, we literally can never have a legitimate election again. Isn't it worth having some people simply pick up a stack of ballots and run them through a clean tabulator to see if there is any truth to this?
Fiendish Thingy
(21,818 posts)How do you know which counties used which tabulators and UPS units?
What if they used Smartmatic machines or some other brand, and different UPS units?
Wouldn’t that render this entire debate moot?
Shouldn’t that be the very first question answered- what machines were used, and where?
Only true if the same machines with the same vulnerabilities are used, and nobody involved in election security does anything different.
Again, I ask, have you communicated this information to anyone who could do something about it?
Bluetus
(2,114 posts)And they should all be answered to 100% satisfaction because what is alleged is so consequential.
But the short answer is that ESS was founded by highly partisan Republicans and has been a concern since the beginning. And ESS has the lion's share of voting systems throughout the country, and are incumbent in every swing state. However, the same scenario could apply to other companies, many of which are (allegedly) controlled by people in the Tech Bro club.
But setting that aside for the moment, the (alleged) operation could have been accomplished using only the ESS equipment. A key point is all of this is that they were (allegedly) flipping votes on selected tabulators in real time, and also monitoring all voting on all compromised tabulators. If the compromised tabulators were only 5% of the total tabulators in use, the scenario is still completely viable in a close race.
Let's look at Pennsylvania, because that is the state where Trump boasted about how much rigging Musk was doing. Here's a simple Google AI result:
.
Here are some specific ES&S voting systems used in Pennsylvania:
ES&S EVS 6.3.0.0, 6.0.2.1, and 6.1.1.0: These versions of the ES&S Electionware (EVS) system are certified for use in Pennsylvania.
ES&S DS200: This is a popular tabulator that scans hand-marked paper ballots. It's a component of the ES&S EVS 6.1.1.0 system.
ES&S ExpressVote XL: A ballot marking device with a touchscreen that produces a printed vote record for tabulation. It is used as the sole polling place voting system in jurisdictions where it is implemented. This system allows all voters, including those with disabilities, to have equal access to the ballot.
ES&S iVotronic: This is a direct recording electronic (DRE) voting system with a touch screen. It's important to note that the iVotronic machines in Fulton County, Pennsylvania were decertified and replaced after the 2020 election
I think you will find similar numbers in the other swing states.
Bluetus
(2,114 posts)Joe Rogan says that Elon Musk knew the election results 4 hours before polls closed.
https://www.facebook.com/reel/917504110368884
He did not say that Elon did a lot of exit polling -- there is zero evidence Musk did any exit polling.
It could be that Rogan and Musk were bullshitting. They do that. But look at Rogan's choice of words. "Elon created an app and he knew who won 4 hours before the results"
Now understand, until the polls close, ZERO data makes it to the county election HQ (other than early voting, of course). So what kind of app could "know who won" 4 hours before polls closed?
It sounds like hogwash, doesn't it. And 100% of the politicians and major media have discarded it as such.
But now that you understand the (alleged) Musk/Eaton/Theil/Palantir scenario, it is obvious that they would have created EXACTLY such an app in order for that vote-flipping operation to succeed without detection.
So my question is, now that you know what is (allegedly) possible and who (allegedly) did it, do you still think Rogan and Musk were talking bullshit about having an app that showed them the swing state votes in real time, when none of the election officials or news networks anywhere in the country had this data?
Fiendish Thingy
(21,818 posts)But I’m still not convinced it was *probable*, so Yes, until proven otherwise,, I think Rogan was talking BS.
Do I think swing state SoS’s should be investigating whether system vulnerabilities were exploited? Sure, do some hand counts of a few precincts, see if they match the tabulators. (This has apparently been ordered for Rockland county, NY).
Perhaps only then will the 2024 election deniers find peace.
P.S. one unanswered question remains - what have you done to share your information with someone who can do something about it?
Bluetus
(2,114 posts)is recognizing that officials have decided to just ignore all these peculiar claims and coincidences as braggadocio. No, I am not going to waste my time with people who think the best course is to ignore it and hope for a different result the next time, because if this (alleged) activity is true, there will not be a next time.
What I am doing is using the knowledge I gained over 40+ years professionally to try to explain the nature and magnitude of the (alleged) activities to people who have trouble believing that there are people evil enough, smart enough, motivated enough, and rich enough to actually do this -- and get away with it. I am using whatever voice I have on whatever channels available to show people that these allegations may actually be true and if so, have enormous consequences.
What I hope people reading this learn is that, while all these virtual confessions of vote-flipping activity by Trump, Musk, Rogan, Theil, Lonsdale and others sound like prideful boasts and nothing more, this is all actually 100% plausible without relying on any technology or knowledge that is not readily available. Moreover, usually the biggest problem with such allegations is that so many people had to be involved that it would be impossible to carry it off without somebody spilling the beans. But in this case, this (alleged) operation could have been done by a couple dozen people, and there are truly thousands of evil people working for Musk and Theil who would not blow the whistle. Notably, this (alleged) operation could have been accomplished without having to corrupt a single government employee anywhere.
As far as a NY recount, I believe this (alleged) scheme was focused only on the swing states and only on the POTUS. I have no idea what happened in NY, but clearly that was of no interest to the Musk/Theil gang unless it was simply a test bed that somebody forgot to turn off before election day. That is not where the recounts are needed. Some smart people have identified significant anomalies in every swing state, and that is where recount activity should be undertaken.
Bluetus
(2,114 posts)Yes, my county uses the DS850 tabulators. The UPS is in the section of the cabinet that is locked to poll workers, so I cannot say exactly what model of UPS is used, if any. We never had a power outage, so I cannot say that there was a UPS in use. But I don't live in a swing state, so any such operation would never have come close to my polling place.
And please understand, if there was an operation such as described here, it did not need to involve all the polling places.You can be certain that Palantir analysts (allegedly) looked for the fewest number of polling places they could manipulate while achieving sufficient vote flipping. This is EXACTLY the kind of work that Palantir does. Nobody is better at it than Palantir.
I would also note that, in this (alleged) scenario, they would have many more compromised tabulators than were actively engaged in vote flipping. The (allegedly) compromised tabulators could tell Palantir exactly the status of voting throughout the day, and they would then know how aggressive they needed to be with the tabulators that were actively flipping votes (allegedly). Again, this sounds complicated, but that is EXACTLY the kind of work Palantir does. It is not complicated to them (allegedly).
Fiendish Thingy
(21,818 posts)Here are the official tallies for Rockland County, the county in question that you referred to above:
https://app.enhancedvoting.com/results/public/rockland-county-ny/elections/GE2024Results
Not as drastic and stark as many have painted it, just a disappointing loss for Harris in a county of a state she won.
Are you claiming “forensic statistical analysts” and other random “experts” on the internet know more about elections than the Secretary of State and their staff?
Because that is what 2020 election deniers claim.
Bluetus
(2,114 posts)The bizarre results occurred at the precinct level. You are looking at the congressional district level.
I am not claiming this was evidence of Musk/Palantir tampering. Indeed, it is an unlikely place to do such tampering unless it was a test case or a case where they had been monkeying around prior to the election and made the mistake of not disabling their mods.
These questions could easily be answered with a hand recount, which could be done in an afternoon. Why are you opposed to verifying our elections?
Fiendish Thingy
(21,818 posts)So, not exactly an afternoon’s work, although, last I checked, a hand recount has been ordered.
At this point, no lawsuit has been filed, so no attorney has risked disbarment by attempting to introduce “theories”, or “forensic statistical analyses” as factual evidence, as Rudy did.
If the hand recount confirms the vote tallies, with no evidence of malfeasance, what will your response be? Call in the CyberNinjas?
Ms. Toad
(38,059 posts)The exact same arguments we made in 2004.
It was our theory - they stole it from us, and now we want it back.
Amusing how whether it happened depends on whether your guy wins. Except that it's not. It makes us look just as stupid as it made them look in 2020.
Clouds Passing
(6,765 posts)Fiendish Thingy
(21,818 posts)Absolutely not.
There is exactly the same amount of evidence for that as in 2020.
“Forensic statistical analysis” is the stuff of CyberNinjas.
This bullshit is kooky CT nonsense by people who can’t cope emotionally with Trump winning a second term because the Harris campaign was handicapped by its delayed start under stressful, chaotic circumstances, with millions of 2020 voters staying home in 2024.
This doesn’t help us win future elections- it’s just evidence-free whining.
However, if by “cheated” you mean he used quasi-legal methods to suppress voters’ rights and reject valid votes for flimsy reasons, then YES, of course he (really the whole GOP) cheated.
kentuck
(115,019 posts)But you don't think he suppressed enough voters' rights or rejected enough votes to make a difference in a tight race?
Fiendish Thingy
(21,818 posts)Trump won many swing states by 1% or less (but still by more votes than Biden in 2020), so how would won know if those narrow margins were due more to voter suppression than voter abstention?
Georgia is probably the one state where there is the most evidence suppression made a significant difference, as they started changing laws right after the 2020 election.
I haven’t seen enough data about rejected votes to know if it was significant or not.
There is far more evidence that apathy, cynicism and despair that neither party was worth voting for played a bigger role in the outcome in 2024 than any type of “cheating”.
kentuck
(115,019 posts)But the Georgia example may have been more widespread than we presently know? We know about the Carolina case that the Court ruled upon, although it may have been after the election?
cadoman
(1,617 posts)No one is breaking into that election equipment. It's secured by CISA and top engineers and experts all agree it's unhackable.
Gerrymandering, voter suppression, misinformation, and foreign interference are the tools available to Krasnov and his minions of fascism.
Fiendish Thingy
(21,818 posts)And there is no credible evidence for that.
Perhaps it would be more accurate to say Trump had an unfair advantage in 2024, especially in light of the circumstances that made Harris the nominee.
cadoman
(1,617 posts)I just don't know where to go with it. It's clear Krasnov cheats, but he doesn't cheat because it's not possible to cheat with the equipment we have.
The last thing you want to do in a political knife fight is put down your weapon though. Dropping the term "cheating" is doing that...
I'm open to ideas. 
Fiendish Thingy
(21,818 posts)Words matter, facts matter (see my sig line).
Using inaccurate, emotion triggering words weakens us and does not help us win elections and fight Facism.
cadoman
(1,617 posts)Fiendish Thingy
(21,818 posts)Not sure a single word can describe the 2024 election, but “cheating” isn’t it.
Misinformation
Voter suppression
Dark money
Free media
Distorted/biased media narratives
And many more, all legal, all “playing by the rules” resulting in accurate tallies of actual votes.
It’s important to remember 2024 isn’t just about how Trump won, it’s also significantly about how Harris lost and why.
Harris didn’t lose because Trump “cheated” (altered or tampered with vote tabulation)
When millions of 2020 voters stay home in 2024, and millions more who didn’t vote in 2020 but were eligible to vote in 2024 (a total of 90 million voters) that says something about both candidates and both parties, (and the voters’ state of mind) and that’s especially significant when one of those candidates is Trump.
cadoman
(1,617 posts)How do you figure that is not a weapon lost for us?
"violating accepted standards or rules"
"to behave in a dishonest way in order to get what you want"
Seems to match everything in your list.
Fiendish Thingy
(21,818 posts)If Fred lies to Wilma and tells her he is working late when he is actually bowling with Barney, does that mean he is cheating on Wilma?
To say that Fred cheated on Wilma would be to imply he had a sexual affair with another woman (Ann Margrock?), just as saying Trump cheated in 2024 implies he only won through changing votes.
questionseverything
(11,507 posts)Any good hacker can make a computer do anything
cadoman
(1,617 posts)"There is no evidence that any voting system deleted or lost votes, changed votes, or was in any way compromised."
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/voting-has-never-been-more-secure-than-it-is-right-now/
"Voting Has Never Been More Secure Than It Is Right Now"
https://www.factcheck.org/2020/11/viral-voting-misinformation/
You may want to consider the possibility that you have been affected by misinformation.
Chemical Bill
(3,017 posts)corporate media or social media isn't cheating, I don't know what is. Same with purging registered voters due to challenges, inactivity, or CrossCheck. Same with million dollar checks to TSF voters. Hell, I consider unlimited spending allowed by Citizens United to be cheating, but it's legal. Of course, the Electoral College is cheating by design.
PBC_Democrat
(447 posts)have access to, and opinions from, the brightest minds in the political, technology, and mathematical worlds.
If they're not raising hell with facts and testimony - then I have to assume there's nothing there.
Two of our last three candidates were Ivy League-educated lawyers, I can't believe they would ignore any credible evidence for any reason.
Ms. Toad
(38,059 posts)Gerrymandering, vote suppression in a variety of ways (limiting voting hours, increased voter ID requirements, voting roster purges, restricting absentee/vote by mail options).
The voting machine rigging was our conspiracy theory before the Republicans stole it from us, and now we've stolen it back. Always was nonsense, whichever party was touting it.
kentuck
(115,019 posts)Purging voters? restricting absentee votes, increased ID requirements? Usually something can be challenged in the court if something is asked of one citizen that is not asked of another, in order to restrict them of any type of individual right.
Fiendish Thingy
(21,818 posts)But to do that, the filibuster must die, and that won’t happen until we elect senators with the courage to kill it.
Right now, we have 16 Dems who voted for the cryptocurrency bill, granting a sheen of legitimacy to something that exists solely to fund criminal activities (including the Ponzi scheme it is built upon), suck up energy from the power grid, and evade taxes.
kentuck
(115,019 posts)Perhaps?
I cannot think of a logical reason for someone to vote for such a Ponzi scheme,
CrispyQ
(40,567 posts)AI Overview
While it is reported that 16 Senate Democrats voted for a procedural motion related to a cryptocurrency bill in May 2025, according to Common Dreams, the number of Democrats who ultimately voted for the GENIUS Act (a different crypto-related bill focusing on stablecoin regulation) in June 2025 was higher.
Eighteen Senate Democrats voted for the GENIUS Act:Angela Alsobrooks (D-Md.)
Cory Booker (D-N.J.)
Catherine Cortez Masto (D-Nev.)
John Fetterman (D-Penn.)
Ruben Gallego (D-Ariz.)
Kirsten Gillibrand (D-N.Y.)
Maggie Hassan (D-N.H.)
Martin Heinrich (D-N.M.)
John Hickenlooper (D-Colo.)
Andy Kim (D-N.J.)
Ben Ray Luján (D-N.M.)
Jon Ossoff (D-Ga.)
Alex Padilla (D-Calif.)
Jacky Rosen (D-Nev.)
Adam Schiff (D-Calif.)
Elissa Slotkin (D-Mich.)
Mark Warner (D-Va.)
Raphael Warnock (D-Ga.)
It's important to note that the GENIUS Act passed the Senate with a bipartisan vote of 68-30, and 71 House Democrats voted for the FIT21 Act in May 2024, demonstrating significant bipartisan support for crypto regulation.
bluedigger
(17,375 posts)How could he not? It's in his nature, like the scorpion crossing the river on the back of the crocodile.
kentuck
(115,019 posts)...but did he cheat enough to win the election? I think it would be naive to even think that he wouldn't try to cheat.
bluedigger
(17,375 posts)I have no idea. But I am sure that he cheated in '16, '20, and '24. You don't get caught the first time, why stop?
SSJVegeta
(2,206 posts)
ZDU
(1,030 posts) 
choie
(6,506 posts)He’s cheating.
ForgedCrank
(3,000 posts)cannot be answered because there is no way to prove one way or another. We do not have a secure or reliable method of auditing or record keeping in many cases. We are basically left trusting the word of certain ranking officials, most of whom have a vested interest in saying whatever suits them.
Jack Valentino
(4,218 posts)In the months immediately after the election, I had some confidence in the election systems of the individual states, to have prevented any such fraud from having made any difference... but the further along we get, the less sure that I am...
so I had to vote "pass"
mvd
(65,819 posts)Right after the election, I thought it was strange but didn’t feel like there was proof. Thought Harris or our lawyers would challenge. But the more I see, the more I feel it was stolen.
Jack Valentino
(4,218 posts)The decentralization of our election system (50 separate state elections)
makes it much more difficult to pull any such thing off...
Doodley
(11,547 posts)
ms liberty
(10,898 posts)Dems won all the top state races and broke the state legislature's GOP supermajority. I don't think he really won NC.
JI7
(93,098 posts)We see all the time dumbfucks shocked at something he does and say they didn't vote for that.
JHB
(37,891 posts)Last edited Sun Jun 22, 2025, 11:55 PM - Edit history (1)
Nixon offered a "better deal" to South Vietnam to scuttle the Paris Peace Talks: turned out to be true
Reagan's campaign tried to contact the Iranians to prevent them from making a deal with Carter: one of them confessed when Carter went into hospice
2000 election, Florida: If I recall correctly, an after-the-fact review by a media consortium found that Bush still would have won in all the scenarios where Gore could have challenged results in particular districts, but buried in there was the scenario of a full statewide recount of all legal ballots, and in that case Gore would have won.
Less specifically, the surest clue to what malfeasance the Republicans are up to has, for several decades, been "whatever they're accusing the Democrats of", and they were relentless in pushing the image that Democrats steal elections. They've been doing that since at least 1960 (despite the fact that had Nixon won Illinois, Kennedy would still have won).
We know there are ways to exploit the voting systems because competitions are held to get into them as a learning tool to find and patch exploitable weak spots. We also know that billionaire tech bros like to throw money around to get what they want, and this is right in their wheelhouse.
"It was stolen" is not something I'm going to lead with, but people doing a deep-dive into the election results data are finding statistical anomalies consistent with tampering. That in itself is not proof, but it is cause to do full forensic audits, not just sampling.
Do I think Trump "cheated"? Better to say "I'm holding my tongue, but I strongly suspect it and won't be at all surprised if it was, indeed stolen."
Emile
(40,084 posts)Kaleva
(40,108 posts)There’d be no point in voting.
Have the methods thr Republicans used to cheat their way to victory in 2024 been neutralized?
montanacowboy
(6,655 posts)he said he didn't need any votes; he said he had all the "votes" he needed.
comradebillyboy
(10,935 posts)win if you can, lose if you must, but always cheat. Trump always cheats as much as he can.
Initech
(107,141 posts)All of these scumbags need to be in prison! 
bob4460
(372 posts)NO WAY!!!!!
jmowreader
(52,843 posts)There's proof that in at least one New York State county zero votes were recorded for Kamala Harris. That is not even possible: Clark County, Idaho. recorded a total of 333 votes. Harris got 50 of them. Clark County has 794 residents.
If a wide spot in the road like Clark County had Harris voters, every other county in America had Harris voters.
EdmondDantes_
(1,272 posts)"The 2024 Ramapo results mirrored its 2020 presidential vote. That year, Trump bested former President Joe Biden 528-0 in precinct 35. In the 2022 midterm elections, Democratic Gov. Kathy Hochul lost to her Republican opponent, Lee Zeldin, 408 to 24 in that same precinct, which also overwhelmingly voted to reelect Sen. Chuck Schumer, D-N.Y., over his Republican opponent, Joe Pinion, 266 to 113."
Truth matters.
Chemical Bill
(3,017 posts)that is must be true because it has happened before. This is not a valid justification.
They attribute the votes to Rabbis instructing people to vote, which in itself is grounds for removal of tax exempt status.
I guess I just consider anything that stands in the way of a healthy democracy to be cheating.
EdmondDantes_
(1,272 posts)It gets in the way of a healthy democracy.
It is absolutely false that there is a county where Harris received zero votes. You believed that and used it as evidence cheating happened. When presented with information that it was false, you simply doubled down that you were right. Can you present anything other than a gut feeling? So far nobody has this time just like Republicans didn't in 2020.
Chemical Bill
(3,017 posts)I have posted links to articles that say that there is a lawsuit and investigations into such a charge. I am in favor of investigations, even if assertions of cheating are proven wrong. But no proof that the machine counts match the paper ballots exists for the swing states in the 2024 election. That is also true for Michigan , Wisconsin, and Pennsylvania in 2016. I keep asking for investigations, not asserting that a "gut feeling" makes me believe anything. I have seen statistical evidence that suggest 2024 was rigged. It's at the Election Truth Alliance website. You might want to see it. And you might want to read The Conyers Report, among other materials. There is plenty of evidence that Republicans cheat.
rzemanfl
(31,063 posts)I will look at the link and edit if needed.
ON EDIT. I did not notice there were two different election cycles involved.
Celerity
(53,414 posts)kentuck
(115,019 posts)"act dishonestly or unfairly in order to gain an advantage, especially in a game or examination."
The question can be asked "Is dishonesty or unfairness illegal?" That would be a legitimate question, in my opinion. However, dishonesty or unfairness in politics, to sway an election, would seem to be illegal on its face, in my opinion.
Celerity
(53,414 posts)and that Rethugs at official levels engage in massive voters suppression.
That said, I also do not buy into the numerous CT theories (some completely off the rails to a 'BlueAnon' leveI of wild, non substantially backed up conjecture) have seen posted here since November 2024, ie 'bullet ballots' or 'Musk stole the actual votes via electronic hacking' or that is was impossible for Trump to win the States he did (when multiple polls showed he easily could win in every swing State), etc etc.
I am going to leave my poll vote as it is (NOTA).
Cheers
Cel
Rebl2
(17,275 posts)Trump cheated with help from musk
rampartd
(3,419 posts)Maine Abu El Banat
(3,529 posts)This is why he wants a Special Prosecutor to look at the 2020 election. If trump is accusing someone of anything you know he's done it or is doing it.
stillcool
(34,407 posts)kind of sad at this late day people still want to believe in what never was.
Happy Hoosier
(9,362 posts)... recent revelations are making me pretty suspicious....
usonian
(23,035 posts)Please clarify.
chouchou
(2,700 posts)If Trump can/could ..he absolutely would.
milestogo
(22,391 posts)kentuck
(115,019 posts)He started his America PAC to giveaway a million dollars a day to random voters who signed his petition for 1st and 2nd Amendment rights. Did they also register these people that were looking for the "winning lottery" ticket? The odds were so much better than their state lotteries.
Is this cheating? Or is this illegal? It was false advertising, for sure. Because they thought they would be in a random drawing but the winners were hand-selected.
These "lotteries" were in all the battleground states and Trump won them all.
kimbutgar
(26,634 posts)3 Kamala become 2 for taco. I took coding classes and I know what they did.
Americanme
(345 posts)He always cheats, at everything. I think trump and Elon had to be very careful during their spat, or someone would blab about the cheating, and they would both go to prison.
Sympthsical
(10,818 posts)To someone building a ballot box out of chicken wire and aiming a microwave with its door open at it.
get the red out
(13,920 posts)He wrapped it in a pretty bow and damned us all to HELL.
DFW
(59,631 posts)Was there cheating to dishonestly sway the election to Trump? THAT wouldn’t surprise me at all. But it would have been manipulated completely without Trump’s knowledge, so that he could honestly believe that he really won. He’s dense enough to believe it if presented with “proof” that he wants to believe.
johnnyfins
(3,352 posts)EVIDENCE and what can be proven in court matters.
PufPuf23
(9,677 posts)
B.See
(7,594 posts)disenfranchisement efforts to cull the registry, including the moving/closure of polling places in mostly minority districts, the fraudulent efforts at discrediting and or marginalizing absentee voting, and the myriad of reich winged sponsored laws and actions that enabled the removal of voters from the rolls, the challenges to eligibility, and the laws passed at local level that enabled them to throw out or refuse to certify results...
all of these dirty tactics and so much MORE -ARE CHEAT ENOUGH, even before the newer allegations and revelations.
But hey, some of us have only been writing and warning of this for at least a DECADE now.
purple_haze
(401 posts)since elections were invented in the caves around the campfires. To what extent there were shenanigans is the real question.
Buzz cook
(2,828 posts)We've known for decades that conservative voter suppression and general fuckery has stolen local elections and made it harder for a democratic national candidate to win election.
Add to that the right wing noise machine and the inability of the MSM to address it.
I don't think Trump himself has originated any of it. But "Trumpery" has turbo-charged the process.
Were Trump does come in os transactional corruption. That's were we get a lot of the oligarchs throwing their money in. Musk is the prime example of that.