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PCIntern

(27,908 posts)
Wed Jul 2, 2025, 08:53 AM Jul 2025

We are going to do this the way the Republicans do it...

That is, effectively. All we have to do is just keep saying over and over and over and over again that he’s insane, that he’s crazy, that he’s senile and demented. After a while, it will become true… Even though it is already true if you get my meaning.

And by the way, if anybody mentions to you that this is or anything else is “beneath us” I’m going to tell you to tell them that there is nothing beneath you when you’re fighting for your life and your children and grandchildren’s lives.

I will relate a story which occur occurred when I was about 13 or 14 years old: it was the anniversary of Hiroshima or Nagasaki and my father, who served four years in the Pacific theater, sat me down and said “There is a legitimate moral viewpoint that the atomic weapons should not have been detonated in a population center, and I fully understand where someone would righteously feel that way. I am here to tell you, however, and if they had not done this, that the invasion of Japan would have cost millions of Americans their lives, including mine because they were going to send the older soldiers in first as the shock troops so to speak, and you wouldn’t be here, although you would never know that, obviously . Then, after the war, there would be firing squads for generals who were found to have withheld the bomb and allowed millions of soldiers to die unnecessarily.”

My father was a humanistic, other-oriented, giving, kind person who understood the pragmatic nature of life more so than my mother who was equally loving of mankind, and was an idealist. My father accepted human frailties and weaknesses, as well as what comes with a profit-based system, whereas my mother believed that “intellectual, bright, and decent people“ should lead the world to health, education, and peace.

Of course, they would both be sick and could not stop throwing up if they saw what was going on at the present time.

38 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight: NoneDon't highlight anything 5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
We are going to do this the way the Republicans do it... (Original Post) PCIntern Jul 2025 OP
My father told me something similar. mommymarine2003 Jul 2025 #1
My first husband was older. murielm99 Jul 2025 #2
A Japanese friend said the bomb ended feudalism Easterncedar Jul 2025 #3
An interesting point well worth thinking on Attilatheblond Jul 2025 #11
We know he is unfit but kacekwl Jul 2025 #4
Thank you for this most excellent viewpoint, my dear PCIntern. CaliforniaPeggy Jul 2025 #5
Thank you my dear CaliforniaPeggy.... PCIntern Jul 2025 #6
Your last sentence...yes. ChazInAz Jul 2025 #7
I don't think so... PCIntern Jul 2025 #9
This! We must all live in a reality based world. Idealism is a good thing. Facing reality will save our asses. Joinfortmill Jul 2025 #8
"...there is nothing beneath you..." hay rick Jul 2025 #10
TRUMP IS NUTS! Kid Berwyn Jul 2025 #12
Remember the old adage: DENVERPOPS Jul 2025 #13
True. Trump isn't the end-all-be-all of the Republican problem. He's a useful tool for rightwing extremists... Beartracks Jul 2025 #21
There is an element to being a cult leader that isn't easily replaceable or reproduceable. Vance sure doesn't have it. CrispyQ Jul 2025 #27
Hey DENVERPOPS Jul 2025 #32
I agree with your post. Once the bill is passed all bets are off. -nt CrispyQ Jul 2025 #35
I have struggled my whole adult life to understand the ethics of... NNadir Jul 2025 #14
Three, or four, elderly Psychotic Men DENVERPOPS Jul 2025 #33
Agreed. We will "beneath us" right in to oblivion with these zero integrity magats sarchasm Jul 2025 #15
Two topics in the o.p. - the asshole and the bomb. 3Hotdogs Jul 2025 #16
Then there are those who didn't have to go serve during that wartime nitpicked Jul 2025 #17
Before you degrade Carter DENVERPOPS Jul 2025 #34
That is one point of view. Let's try another POV. There was no need for an invasion of Japan. flashman13 Jul 2025 #18
Interesting story! Doodles Jul 2025 #19
So it was just a pure coinkydink that they surrendered PCIntern Jul 2025 #22
No not at all. We didn't let them surrender until after we dropped the bombs. flashman13 Jul 2025 #28
And the bombs allowed the emperor to save face rather than just outright surrender because they were beaten. flashman13 Jul 2025 #29
Utter rewriting of a horrifying time. PCIntern Jul 2025 #31
Replying to my own comment: PCIntern Jul 2025 #36
I am not going to argue the point with you. I stand by everything I have said. It is historical fact. flashman13 Jul 2025 #37
You're not going to argue and then you write three expository paragraphs doing just that: PCIntern Jul 2025 #38
" ...there is nothing beneath you when you're fighting for your life and your children and grandchildren's lives." OldBaldy1701E Jul 2025 #20
That was the story at the time, it wasn't true Nigrum Cattus Jul 2025 #23
A Bomb. A Radioman. A River. And a Father I Almost Never Knew. usaf-vet Jul 2025 #24
This jives with my family history.... PCIntern Jul 2025 #30
Let's remember that Donald Trump is a pathological liar with zero credibility Martin Eden Jul 2025 #25
It would be nice to have a propaganda network of AM radio stations and Cable News channels maxsolomon Jul 2025 #26

mommymarine2003

(343 posts)
1. My father told me something similar.
Wed Jul 2, 2025, 09:02 AM
Jul 2025

He was a Marine fighter pilot in the South Pacific during the war. He was actually flying to Japan when the bombs were dropped. He told me many times that he expected to be killed and that dropping the bombs saved American lives. My sister and I would never have been born. He wound up being diverted to Red China. Fortunately, he landed in territory that was not controlled by the Japanese. I am thankful that my father is not around to witness what is going on in our country today.

Easterncedar

(5,356 posts)
3. A Japanese friend said the bomb ended feudalism
Wed Jul 2, 2025, 09:12 AM
Jul 2025

And my friend recently said, although it might not be a popular viewpoint, the end of that class system was a victory for the people.

It was an opinion I had not heard before.

Attilatheblond

(8,022 posts)
11. An interesting point well worth thinking on
Wed Jul 2, 2025, 10:19 AM
Jul 2025

Yes, it ended a horrible economic system. But economic evolution seems to bringing back that horrible system in new guise and right here in the US. There is a long generational class war and the people seem to be losing at presents.

kacekwl

(8,831 posts)
4. We know he is unfit but
Wed Jul 2, 2025, 09:19 AM
Jul 2025

Let's point out the fact that he is actively worm by against America. After the 2 weeks deadline he put on Putin the punishment for Russian is to take away weapons from Ukraine. Genocide in Gaza by the war criminal leader of Israel the punishment is to demand the charges against him be dropped. Threaten military action against Greenland, Canada, Panama and imposing tariffs on ally countries. The man and the party are undeniably traitors to the USA. People apparently don't care about his crimes his incompetence but maybe they will understand what the effects of a Putin style government would be. Probably not.

CaliforniaPeggy

(155,921 posts)
5. Thank you for this most excellent viewpoint, my dear PCIntern.
Wed Jul 2, 2025, 09:28 AM
Jul 2025

This is a story that we should all pay attention to. He is a madman and all the rest. Eventually, nearly everyone will get it.

I only hope that it will not be too late to remedy this horrible situation.

PCIntern

(27,908 posts)
6. Thank you my dear CaliforniaPeggy....
Wed Jul 2, 2025, 09:56 AM
Jul 2025

The loss of faith by any real thinking individual in the electorate may never be regained.

ChazInAz

(2,982 posts)
7. Your last sentence...yes.
Wed Jul 2, 2025, 10:01 AM
Jul 2025

As a humanist and liberal, the nuking of Hiroshima and Nagasaki fills me with horror.
Hamlet's soliloquy "What a piece of work is man..." always springs to mind, and the absolute necessity of the bombing brings tears.
I've often wondered if the certain knowledge of what he was going to unleash might not have hastened FDR's death.

PCIntern

(27,908 posts)
9. I don't think so...
Wed Jul 2, 2025, 10:08 AM
Jul 2025

He knew about the death camps. Didn’t bomb the rail lines leading to them.

Joinfortmill

(19,747 posts)
8. This! We must all live in a reality based world. Idealism is a good thing. Facing reality will save our asses.
Wed Jul 2, 2025, 10:02 AM
Jul 2025

Kid Berwyn

(22,533 posts)
12. TRUMP IS NUTS!
Wed Jul 2, 2025, 10:26 AM
Jul 2025

Excellent strategy: simplify, focus and repeat the message. Discussion allows introduction of detail: crazy to betray Constitution, etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc.

Thank you for sharing background, too. You can tell how a person was raised by how they think about — and treat — other people.

Your folks, through their lives and actions, served humanity and protected the Constitution.

DENVERPOPS

(13,003 posts)
13. Remember the old adage:
Wed Jul 2, 2025, 10:29 AM
Jul 2025

Be careful what you wish for...........

If Trump croaks, the Powers To Be have others in waiting.....ones who will strictly work in the shadows, out of sight, continuing the RepubliCONs march forward...........

Beartracks

(14,265 posts)
21. True. Trump isn't the end-all-be-all of the Republican problem. He's a useful tool for rightwing extremists...
Wed Jul 2, 2025, 11:26 AM
Jul 2025

... and they will go on with or without him.

================

CrispyQ

(40,539 posts)
27. There is an element to being a cult leader that isn't easily replaceable or reproduceable. Vance sure doesn't have it.
Wed Jul 2, 2025, 12:31 PM
Jul 2025

There's no guarantee the cult will follow who TPTB pick, or that the cult themselves, will naturally coalesce around a single figure. I think they will go back to bickering among themselves & pointing fingers & blame at each other. Remember when they congregated down at the southern border in Texas during the first term, & they immediately started fighting among themselves? They thrive on conflict so they can't help themselves.

TPTB need this bill passed & also to get as many pieces of Project 2025 in place as possible before they 25th him. They're close, though, damned close. Then it won't matter if they have a cult leader.

DENVERPOPS

(13,003 posts)
32. Hey
Wed Jul 2, 2025, 02:04 PM
Jul 2025

I have a hard time thinking that the Republican's are not a hair away from Checkmate or at a Checkmate already, or that we haven't already gone past the point of no return..........

I guarantee you all, you ain't seen nothing yet.............it is way past KATIE BAR THE DOOR.............
Every single day they continue to go full steam ahead, with no one stopping them....Not congress, Not his DOJ, FBI, Border Patrol, or the USSC.

We are at the threshold of a Hitler regime, and well on our way to surpassing the Great Depression in the very near future............
If that bill passes, it will quite literally be last nail in the coffin for 99% of Americans........

I see mostly people that still aren't concerning themselves in the slightest, or paying attention to what is going on, each and every day.

I fully expect the Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse to come riding in from the sky at any moment....

NNadir

(37,047 posts)
14. I have struggled my whole adult life to understand the ethics of...
Wed Jul 2, 2025, 10:36 AM
Jul 2025

...the nuclear bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. At different times I've been on different sides of the question.

As the end of my life approaches, having studied the literature on the Japanese internal debate on surrender, I am inclined to agree with your father.

As an advocate of nuclear energy, regarding it as the only acceptable form of energy, I have made it a point to understand nuclear weapons, which I generally oppose, but one could argue that their existence may have brought a sobering restraint on the outbreak of another World War, leaving it a "cold" war.

These questions do not yield easily to simplistic reasoning. It is disturbing that large nuclear arsenals are controlled by men lacking ethics and in the case of the orange creature in the White House, an already low level of intellect further compromised by clear dementia.

DENVERPOPS

(13,003 posts)
33. Three, or four, elderly Psychotic Men
Wed Jul 2, 2025, 02:11 PM
Jul 2025

in control of ten times the number of nuclear missiles/bombs needed to destroy planet earth ten times over. What could go wrong?????

All three have the added psychotic mentality of ......"I'll Show You"...... if ever confronted with falling from power, or if near death.......

sarchasm

(1,287 posts)
15. Agreed. We will "beneath us" right in to oblivion with these zero integrity magats
Wed Jul 2, 2025, 10:39 AM
Jul 2025

The only integrity they have is to lie, cheat, steal... aka; grift their way to power. They view compassion and empathy as weakness, and use ours to their clear advantage.

Time to fight fire with fire.

3Hotdogs

(14,889 posts)
16. Two topics in the o.p. - the asshole and the bomb.
Wed Jul 2, 2025, 10:42 AM
Jul 2025

First, the asshole - Anal Fistula. It may or may not be dementia. It is insanity. Everything he does is about what gets him more money. I believe he made (I won't use the term, "earned&quot over $1billion in his first 6 months in office. And there's more to come. I'm sure he will earn a few billion more, selling his new perfume.

The problem is, the feeling of being powerless against him and a Congress that is more concerned with being in Congress than with doing the job of representative or senator.


Then WW II and the bomb. My father was in the Navy at Iwo Jima. He was on one of the boats that landed marines on the island. I didn't get a sense of this until I saw the beginning of Clint Eastwood's movie, "Letters from Iwo Jima." The first minute or so of that movie showed primary footage of those boats heading towards the shore of Iwo Jima. All around those boats are splashes in the water of shells that were fired from the shore and aimed at those boats. I can only imagine that scene being magnified by hundreds if the Japanese mainland was invaded.

So I accept that the bomb was a good thing. Better them than us? Or "They started it." Or whatever justification you come up with.

But why A-bomb a city instead of a naval or military base? The same message would have been sent: F.A.F.O., as the kids say, today.

Side point. One of the few Japanese soldiers to surrender off the island, ended up on my father's boat. They communicated with hand gestures or however. Dad said he liked the guy. He ended up giving my father some coins, a pair of sandals and a small Japanese flag that had been given to him, signed by his co-workers as a "best wishes," parting gift as he had been drafted in the Japanese army.


We kept these items for years and then we found that we could take them to the Japanese embassy and they would try to find any surviving family and return them to the man or his family. If there were a disposition of these items, we would be told. If the man or his surviving family wanted to contact us, they would facilitate that.

About a year later, we heard that the items had been returned to the family. He had been a bank teller before the war. The poor bastard was probably no better or worse a person than any other guy who gets caught up in a war for which he has no responsibility. As Anal Fistula would say, he was, "A loser."

nitpicked

(1,562 posts)
17. Then there are those who didn't have to go serve during that wartime
Wed Jul 2, 2025, 10:51 AM
Jul 2025

Ranging from Jimmy Carter on down to the "class of 1946" HS graduates.

DENVERPOPS

(13,003 posts)
34. Before you degrade Carter
Wed Jul 2, 2025, 02:19 PM
Jul 2025

you should check his Military career in the Navy.......and it takes at least a college degree to get into OCS to become an officer......

flashman13

(1,869 posts)
18. That is one point of view. Let's try another POV. There was no need for an invasion of Japan.
Wed Jul 2, 2025, 10:58 AM
Jul 2025

If you consult your map you will see that Japan is a string of islands. Japan has very limit resources and totally relies on supplies from outside sources. That was the whole rational behind the Japanese starting the war in the first place. We controlled the seas and the skies. We could have continued the existing siege of the islands and starved the population back into the stone age. If they all died, so much the better.

At the time of the atomic bombing, the Japanese were already attempting to negotiate a surrender through various third parties, including the Russians. We chose to ignore their entreaties. They were willing to surrender if they could keep the emperor. That is the one condition they ultimately were granted.

The bombs were dropped as a demonstration to the Russians of our power, not to win the war. It was already won.

Of course we also wanted to see just how destructive our bombs were. Hiroshima and Nagasaki were exempted from our earlier bombing which had already burned out every other city in Japan just for demonstration purposes. We had already burned out 14 square miles of Tokyo and killed more than 100,000 people in a single fire bomb raid.

So the false claim that it was either the atomic bombs or an invasion resulting in mass casualties was a ruse to salve our moral concerns. As they say, the victors write the history books.

PCIntern

(27,908 posts)
22. So it was just a pure coinkydink that they surrendered
Wed Jul 2, 2025, 11:27 AM
Jul 2025

virtually immediately after Nagasaki. Ok. Thats your POV.

flashman13

(1,869 posts)
29. And the bombs allowed the emperor to save face rather than just outright surrender because they were beaten.
Wed Jul 2, 2025, 12:35 PM
Jul 2025

It allowed him to look like some sort of humanitarian.

PCIntern

(27,908 posts)
31. Utter rewriting of a horrifying time.
Wed Jul 2, 2025, 01:48 PM
Jul 2025

DU rules expressly forbid my honest response to you.

PCIntern

(27,908 posts)
36. Replying to my own comment:
Wed Jul 2, 2025, 02:37 PM
Jul 2025

The most horrifying words that troops can hear is that their own commanders have stipulated an “unconditional surrender” for the other side. That means that the other side has nothing to lose, but to fight to the last man. Conquering Japan on the ground would have made the European Theater seem tame by comparison.

flashman13

(1,869 posts)
37. I am not going to argue the point with you. I stand by everything I have said. It is historical fact.
Wed Jul 2, 2025, 05:53 PM
Jul 2025

Feel free to say anything you want. You are not going to hurt my feelings.

I have spent the last 60+ years studying 20th century history with particular focus on WWII. My personal library has over a thousand volumes covering that era and I have read them all. By reading a large number of authors with both diverging and over lapping stories will produce a clear and accurate picture. Over the years many of the myths have been replaced by sober analysis. I am currently reading the third volume of The Liberation Trilogy by Rick Atkinson. It paints a picture primarily of American forces in Europe. It strips away much of the rah rah mythology and replaces it with an honest appraisal of American forces and their evolution into a fighting force. It also details the shear brutality of war. It is very well written. You might find it interesting reading.

The Normandy invasion was without a doubt the greatest single military campaign ever undertaken in any age. The forces of America, Britian, Canada, France, Poland and a dozen other nations acquitted themselves with great bravery, sacrifice and honor. Contrary to the myth however, the invasion was not what won the war. Our biggest single contribution of the war was to provide the food, fuel, supplies and especially over 400,000 trucks and other vehicles to power and move the Russian armies. On June 22, 1944 those Russian forces opened their summer offensive in the east and destroyed 25 divisions of German Army Group Center in a matter of days. That effectively ended the war. All that was left was much more dying, because at that point the Germans were effectively defeated. But because Roosevelt had made his surprise announcement at the Casablanca Conference in early 1943 that we would accept nothing less that "Unconditional Surrender, the Germans (especially Hitler) felt compelled to carry on the fight.

May I also suggest you read The Lies My Teacher Told Me by James W. Lowen. It is very enlightening, but it does call a great deal of what we generally accept as history into question. As I said, the victors write the first histories and leave later generations of historians to restore some truth and perspective.

PCIntern

(27,908 posts)
38. You're not going to argue and then you write three expository paragraphs doing just that:
Wed Jul 2, 2025, 06:58 PM
Jul 2025

Historians make multiple assumptions about what might have happened if something else maybe and perhaps had occurred. Well guess what, Americans were dying by the tens of thousands and it was time to end this once and for all. We did not initiate the war, we did not have a surprise bombing of Pearl Harbor or its equivalent on a Sunday morning, we did not enslave Chinese and other nationalities and murder millions. I’m tired of hearing about the “reasonableness” of genocidal regimes run by emperors or Fuhrers.


And I too have studied history and have been personally acquainted with individuals who were involved in decision making during wars, during sieges, and during political campaigns at the highest levels. The one issue common to all these folks is that the real story, the inside story, rarely if ever is accurately chronicled, and many of them will tell you that what you have read in some scholarly tome is actually not what occurred. Color me skeptical.

OldBaldy1701E

(9,791 posts)
20. " ...there is nothing beneath you when you're fighting for your life and your children and grandchildren's lives."
Wed Jul 2, 2025, 11:09 AM
Jul 2025

Hear Hear!

Well said!

Nigrum Cattus

(1,155 posts)
23. That was the story at the time, it wasn't true
Wed Jul 2, 2025, 11:42 AM
Jul 2025

My father was a WW2 vet and my mother was a
gold star widow from WW2. My dad was her 2nd
husband. No, we would not have lost "millions" of
soldiers. The Japanese would have negotiated a
surrender rather than give up their country, just
like they did. Nuclear weapons are the bane of
humanity.

usaf-vet

(7,735 posts)
24. A Bomb. A Radioman. A River. And a Father I Almost Never Knew.
Wed Jul 2, 2025, 11:45 AM
Jul 2025

During reading this post discussing the moral and strategic arguments surrounding the atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. It reminded me of a piece of my own family’s story—one that almost erased my existence before it began.

My father served in the U.S. Navy during World War II as a radioman. He didn’t speak German or Japanese, but he was trained to hear the rhythm of Morse code, recognize its meaning, and type it—letter by letter—as it came in. His first deployment? A jungle radio station “20 miles up from the mouth of the Amazon River,” where for 18 months, he intercepted German Morse traffic. His work helped track U-boat movements and likely contributed to the intelligence used in breaking the Enigma code or targeting U-boats, such as U-505.

After the South America assignment, in late 1944, he was sent to Washington State. It was only years later, through my own research, that I discovered the school he attended there was teaching Japanese Morse code. His service record next places him at a radio station in Hawaii. And then—shortly after the atomic bombs were dropped—he was sent home and honorably discharged.

For decades, that’s all we knew.

But in the mid-1990s, long after he had retired and started making trips to visit my sisters and me in Wisconsin, he let something slip during a quiet moment on a boat fishing with my brother-in-law, a former Coast Guard sailor. He told him that he had been scheduled to be deployed to a clandestine radio outpost, similar to the one in the Amazon—this time near Japan—to intercept Japanese communications ahead of the planned invasion.

I wasn’t there to hear him say it. But months later, my brother-in-law repeated the words that still echo in me:
“If your dad had been sent to that radio station, none of you kids would be here.”

And he was probably right. My dad, like many older Pacific vets in 1945, would have been among the first wave—shock troops in a brutal island campaign. Had the bombs not been dropped, the invasion would likely have gone ahead. His orders may well have already been written.

His military record supports this timeline. His training matched what would be needed. His movements aligned with the progression of intelligence prep toward Japan. And a small but telling detail: a section of his file remains sealed, even to this day—denied to me as recently as last year by direct order of the Chief of Naval Operations.

This isn’t a defense or a condemnation of the bomb. But it’s a real story, about a real man, and about six kids who got to exist because fate—and history—took a turn.

PCIntern

(27,908 posts)
30. This jives with my family history....
Wed Jul 2, 2025, 01:00 PM
Jul 2025

My father had once said to me when he was suffering from his chronic malaria attacks that there would be an attempt to rewrite history stating The Japanese is not being all that bad, and basically victims of American expansionist enterprise, when the exact opposite was true at the time. He said that the Japanese recognized that they were not evil enough to run their own prisoner of war camps so they looked for special individuals from other nationalities and backgrounds to do so. Of course, much of what we did to Japan was payback for Pearl Harbor and the Bataan death march among other atrocities, but ask any family member of a serviceman or woman stationed at Pearl Harbor in 1941 what the appropriate course of action should have been to end the war on the Pacific.

Martin Eden

(15,253 posts)
25. Let's remember that Donald Trump is a pathological liar with zero credibility
Wed Jul 2, 2025, 11:45 AM
Jul 2025

The subject title of this post was my recommendation for Democrats to say EVERY TIME they're asked to comment on something Hair Twitler said or posted.

EVERY. TIME.

maxsolomon

(38,022 posts)
26. It would be nice to have a propaganda network of AM radio stations and Cable News channels
Wed Jul 2, 2025, 11:49 AM
Jul 2025

to help distribute this message.

I guess it's to our advantage that he is demented. We don't have to lie.

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