How the fuck is this ambiguous?

[Pototan]

It seems plain as day to me.

"The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized."

https://constitution.congress.gov/constitution/amendment-4/

[Irish_Dem]

1. The US Constitution is a quaint, old fashioned relic from a bygone era.

I get sentimental when people refer to it and still think it is intact.

[Pototan]

2. I can't seem to find anything

in the 4th Amendment about "reasonable suspicion".

[Irish_Dem]

3. When you are running a police state the 4th amendment has to be trashed.

[Pototan]

4. Oh, I agree.

[DFW]

6. The two are not compatible

The Fourth Amendment was designed to prevent a police state. What the Founders never considered was a majority on the Supreme Court that was solidly opposed to the Fourth Amendment.

“Certain inalienable rights” doesn’t protect us much when the Supreme Court adds, “except when we say those rights are, too, alienable.”

[Irish_Dem]

7. Our Founding Fathers assumed the checks and balances would function appropriately.

It may not have occurred to them that Congress and the Courts would totally fold for a dictator.

[DFW]

9. Probably not, agreed.

To be fair, for a quarter millennium, during a period of greater technological change than civilization had ever known, it did hold. Only the Roberts Court has added “except when” to parts of the Bill of Rights. For that, there is no precedent.

[Irish_Dem]

10. Yes the US Constitution held for almost 250 years.

It is amazing how suddenly it collapsed.

[Celerity]

25. 236 years. It went into effect March 4, 1789, superseding the Articles of Confederation.

[SickOfTheOnePct]

29. Even better...

...if we're going to consider the institution of the "reasonable suspicion" standard as the downfall of the Constitution, then it only lasted for 179 years, since the standard came into existence in 1968.

[malaise]

14. I disagree

Except when it’s African Americans has often been a feature not a bug and silence in many quarters meant they would try it on others eventually. Here we are.

[DFW]

20. This Court and this Administration are fast becoming equal opportunity bullies

Whereas in earlier days, they liked to pick on those with the least ability to defend themselves, these days, it’s pretty much anyone upon whom they can practice their sadism.

[malaise]

21. Yep but that's what happens

We ignore the oppression of others at our own expense

[DFW]

23. At our own peril, I'd say

It’s always easier to look the other way, and not say, “we shouldn’t look away because we’re next.” But too often, we do look away, lo and behold, we ARE next.

[malaise]

24. Yes indeed

Rec

[JustAnotherGen]

26. This

And this regime has turned me into a radical.

[speak easy]

5. "reasonable suspicion" is the UK equivalent of probable cause.

Last edited Sun Jul 13, 2025, 07:18 AM - Edit history (2)

Despite the broad sounding language, its legal reach is not much broader than probable cause. Having said that, there is no place 'reasonable suspicion'' in U.S. Governance.

[FBaggins]

13. I can't see how anyone can miss it

The amendment does not say "free from all searches and seizures" - just the unreasonable ones.

Courts must therefore determine whether or not law enforcement's suspicion of a crime was reasonable enough to warrant a search if there was not an opportunity to get a warrant.

[writerJT]

19. That's the correct answer.

The idea of reasonable suspicion came about through case law and acts as an exception to the warrant requirement. It allows for at least limited law enforcement intervention and investigation.

[GiqueCee]

17. But...

... it is the essential cornerstone of American democracy. And the narrow-minded "Originalists" conveniently dismiss the entire concept of "Amendments". Conservatives' contempt for the Constitution has given us legal abominations like Civil Asset Forfeiture, and a host of other encroachments on the freedoms they claim to hold so dear. But then, they're Republicans, therefore they are liars.
I'm two years shy of eighty, and boy, Howdy, I've seen some shit from these malevolent fuckers. They are horrid people, devoid of honor or even the most minuscule shred of common human decency. I wouldn't cross the street to piss in one's face if it was on fire.

[Baitball Blogger]

8. What we need to remember is that Ice was

Formed less than 25 years ago. It has never legally been tested. We are doing that now because this Administration is using it to overstep the intent of the Constitution and our efforts are being complicated by a right-wing leaning Supreme Court,

[fujiyamasan]

11. This is a good point

ICE has basically been given powers other federal agencies and local police forces couldn’t have dreamed of. And Trump is clearly wielding it as his secret police.

There’s little accountability at this point.

[unblock]

12. Simple.

The constitution gives the Supreme Court the right to resolve cases under their purview whoever they choose. It doesn't talk about precedent, logic, reason, facts, fairness, how to or even whether to interpret the constitution. Courts have long relied on such things to bolster their image of legitimacy, but in a Machiavellian sense, the constitution gives them to resolve cases however they want, and it requires no explanation.

Moreover, the constitution gives congress the power to impeach and remove presidents and justices, but if it becomes known that congress will refuse to use those checks and balance powers, it enables a president and justices to do whatever the f they want.

In this case all they need to do is say it's not "unreasonable" and boom, no 4th amendment problem for evil government officials.

[GiqueCee]

15. "Badges?"

"We don't need no stinkin' badges!"

[thesquanderer]

16. I guess ambiguity could be what exactly qualifies as "unreasonable."

If there's a question, it would be up to the courts to make that determination, so ultimately, the Supreme Court can draw the lines where they want.

To paraphrase Lewis Carroll, the Constitution means just what the Supreme Court chooses it to mean -- neither more nor less.

That's the basic flaw in our system... ultimately, it depends on a handful of people doing the right thing. Not just justices, but also a president and congress who believe in the principles of the Constitution rather than looking at it as something to try to find loopholes in.

[sl8]

18. Seems pretty ambiguous to me.

Unless and until people all agree on what constitutes "unreasonable searches and seizures", the prohibition is very nearly the definition of ambiguous.

Heck, just ban all unreasonable behavior. Everybody agrees what that is, right?

[maxrandb]

22. Well...you see, it's like this

President Obama didn't fix all of America's problems within a week of taking office, and even had the gall to not deliver ponies as demanded.

We decided that the way to make America "more progressive" was to sit out the 2010 Mid-term election (A CENSUS YEAR), and allow unhinged racists with tri-corner hats and Medicare provided "My Scooters"...screaming like banshees for 14 months about getting "gubmint out of my Medicare", to take over 65% of all State Legislatures and Governorships, as well as a majority of the Federal Government House and Senate.

Then, we sat back as a racist fucking orange circus clown spent the next 14 months demanding to see the first African American President's Birth Certificate. We never showed up to protest at the studios of ...NOT ONE SINGLE one of the 1,500 Hate Radio stations, (MANY BASED ENTIRELY WITHIN THE CONFINE OF 80-20 BLUE TO RED CITIES), who spewed racist birther shit 24/7.

Then, it became perfectly normal for CBS, NBC, ABC, the NY Times, the WA Post, and of course Faux News to present the entire racist birther shit as nothing more than a "he said-she said" issue.

Then we gleefully watched "Game of Thrones" and wondered how people could allow such a fucked up...but totally entertaining...leadership structure take hold in Westoros.

Then we got busy with our kids and our lives as our newly empowered T-baggers drew state and federal congressional districts that looked like a sheep fucking a housecat...we expressed a little bit of concern when all of these "snake swallowing a shriveled penis" districts ensured our new overlords could win 45% of a states voters, while getting 86% of its representation...coincidental, of course.

Then we nominated a fantastic candidate, and one that was probably the most qualified ever to serve as President, but all anyone wanted to talk about was some "scandal" about some "email" bullshit...except for some of "us"...who preferred talking about how "our wonderful, started from nothing and worked her ass off to get where she was, truly historic candidate, was just EXACTLY THE SAME as an orange colored, racist freak-show, carnival barking, used-car-powered-by-snake-oil selling, serial unwanted pussy-grabbing moron".

Then, just to ensure we went completely through the Looking Glass and were using the broken shards to slit out wrists, we enabled the party of the "orange colored, racist freak-show, carnival barking, used car, snake oil selling, serial unwanted pussy-grabbing moron", to be the only check on his power.

There's something in there about some Russians doing some shit, but truly...THIS SHIT SHOW IS ALL OURS.

and that's the story of "How the Constitution became ambiguous"

[Celerity]

28. "snake swallowing a shriveled penis"

Kristi Noem's career advancement strategy with Trumpy.

[Kid Berwyn]

27. When "Insurrection" doesn't mean "Insurrection" for everybody...

…it opens a lot of wiggle room for the treasonous bastards, especially the ones with money.

[snot]

30. THANK YOU.

Americans' acquiescence in the wholesale nullification of their 4th Amendment rights has been both shocking and tragic.

James Clapper flat-out lied under oath about the NSA's mass, warrantless surveillance of U.S. citizens and was never prosecuted for it. That and a thousand other violations and shrugs have paved the way for what we see today, with worse to come if we don't act effectively against it.

[Wounded Bear]

31. That only applies to white, wealthy landowners, dontcha know?

And preferably Republicans.

[Blue Owl]

32. K and fucking R