Nation that always cries it is a victim. Readies its army to expand mission creep.

[Duncanpup]

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/national-security/satellite-images-show-israel-building-forces-possible-ground-invasion-rcna223722

[marble falls]

1. "Try and stop me before I kill again." IDF motto.

[Duncanpup]

2. $40 billion a year in taxpayer money sent to Israel.

Needs to stop.

[marble falls]

3. Not including the millions sent in donations from individuals.

[paleotn]

16. Seriously. It's akin to "Southie" privately funding the IRA.

[marble falls]

111. Worse. Compare AIPAC which plays in US and Israeli politics and NORAID which purely bought arms, quite unsuccessfully ..

... for Northern Ireland.

AIPAC in any year has raised more cash than NORAID did it's entire short life.

[paleotn]

14. Amen!

They're more than rich enough to carry their own damn weight. Want to do genocide? Do it on their own dime.

Long ago, they were a strategic ally in a region of Soviet influenced, Arab states. That's all ancient history. Now they're more damn trouble than they're worth. Cut them the hell off.

[maxrandb]

32. Now, they appear to be a full-blown Soviet influenced Jewish state

Bibi, Putin and Donnie Dipshit are quickly becoming Musolini, Stalin and Hitler.

I am curious which nation will take the role of "leader of the free world", because it sure as fuck isn't the USA anymore.

[Quanta]

26. And they have Universal Health Care

But not us.

[yardwork]

33. The U.S. doesn't pay for Israelis' health care.

We provide military aid, and not that much.

One of the many falsehoods making the rounds is that the U.S. can't afford to give our people health care because of the aid we give Israel. That's a ridiculous lie. We give Israel a relatively tiny portion of our budget for military defense.

We don't give our own people health care because voters keep electing Republicans who give huge tax breaks to billionaires.

[Blue Full Moon]

54. What we give them frees up the money for the universal health care

[yardwork]

59. That's simply incorrect.

This is a falsehood that's being spread to make Americans hate Israel.

The U.S. could easily afford to provide universal healthcare care to all our people. In fact it would be less expensive than our current inefficient patchwork system.

We don't do it because there isn't a will to do it.

[Blue Full Moon]

71. Not a falsehood

[paleotn]

55. That is ridiculous from a total dollar stand point, but

without the $12.5 billion in FY 2024 military aid, god knows what it is for FY 2025, Israel would be forced to do some serious funding allocation choices. Perhaps cutting into their healthcare funding to support their war.

[yardwork]

61. It's too bad we elected Trump, for those and many other reasons.

Maybe Kamala Harris would have reduced US aid to Israel. Maybe a Democratic-majority Congress would have expanded healthcare.

Instead we got the Big Beautiful Bill cutting everything good and shoveling billions more to Elon Musk and his buddies.

And we get Trump reposting AI fantasies of resorts in Gaza.

[Blue Full Moon]

72. Netanyahu knew Trump was in.

[PufPuf23]

104. "We provide military aid, and not that much."

USA cumulatively has given more military aid to Israel by far than any other country since 1948.

You know that your statement is not true but typed that statement anyway.

The lack of public health care in the USA and the public health care in Israel are not directly related.

[David__77]

110. US aid to Israel was equivalent to $1,400 for every Israeli man, woman and child in 2024.

It is true that the Israeli government spends more than that per citizen on healthcare. That said the US contributions certainly help defray the cost.

Of course, that number per individual would have been lower if we count the millions of subjects who do not have the rights of citizenship and live under Israeli subjugation.

[writerJT]

4. That country loves playing victim. It never ends.

[Bettie]

6. They are getting ready to

do that thing where they kill everyone there, to make it easier for the settlers and the real estate developers to move in.

[rubbersole]

8. One of tsf's moron sons said that part out loud 6+ months ago.

[KPN]

25. Kushner's ready.

[Orrex]

7. This is probably all Hamas' fault or something

[EdmondDantes_]

9. Not defending what Israel is doing in Gaza, but they have been attacked repeatedly

Not just by Hamas, but Hezbollah and most of their neighbors have launched wars with Israel. Obviously the cycle of violence needs to stop, but you can't say that Israel only plays the victim. They really have been the victim of a lot of violence for their entire existence.

Look at how much violence the US inflicted after the Sept 11 attacks. Now imagine if that violence wasn't a one day event.

Again not excusing what they are doing, but pretending that Israel hasn't been repeatedly attacked isn't a valid understanding of history.

[yardwork]

10. There's a lot of ignorance in this thread.

Unfortunately, it's now trendy and cool to hate Jewish people and to demonize Israel, without bothering to learn any of its history.

Disappointing to see on DU.

[lark]

13. Diisappointing to see people condoning wholesale genocide and ethnic cleansing by bibi for profit.

[yardwork]

17. I haven't seen any of that here, but I don't see all posts.

I'm certainly not condoning Netanyahu's actions. I think they're horrible.

But this OP and most responses demonize Israel as an entire nation that "always" pretends to be a victim. That is demonstrably false.

In fact, any accusation against Israel is doubly true of the United States. We have done far worse in our history.

It's one thing to say "I condemn Israel's current actions against the people in Gaza. I don't believe the U.S. should be supporting it."

It's quite another to make a broad brush attack on Israel and misrepresent their entire history. Many Israelis strongly condemn their current government's actions - just as many Americans strongly condemn our current government's actions. Yet here we are.

I feel guilt for Trump's actions on our southern border and ICE kidnapping children and young people. We know they're being tortured. I fear they're being sex trafficked.

I can't assuage my guilt by blaming Israel.

[maxrandb]

39. "Demonize Israel as an entire nation"????

I guess Israel was just walking down the street one day, tripped, fell into a voting booth, and "accidentally" hit the "Bibi right-wing authoritarian" lever?

The fact that the elected leaders of a nation reflect that nations values is what I struggle with the most these days as an American.

It's not too late for Israel, or America yet...but we better see some of these mythical "better angels" pretty fucking soon.

Like Donnie Dipshit, the only thing that will stop Netanyahu is if a majority of the Israeli people rise up in enough numbers to STOP HIM.

Excuse me for not holding my breath while waiting for that.

[yardwork]

40. Israelis have more reason to vote for an authoritarian than we do.

What's our excuse? We weren't under attack. Our neighbors didn't hate us and try to destroy us.

All these attacks on Israel sound like purity posturing to me. We can't clean the stench of our own guilt that way.

[vanessa_ca]

49. I genuinely hear you, feel for you, and understand where you're coming from even if I don't agree.

Last edited Sat Aug 9, 2025, 12:56 PM - Edit history (1)

But, Yardwork, we can feel guilty about more than 1 thing at a time.

If the OP had been more specific and said that Israeli leaders instead of the nation, would that be more acceptable? Likud didn't just now show its ugliness. It's been there since the beginning and people keep voting for it over and over again.

There are many righteous souls in Israel. More and more young people are preferring to be jailed in the "Russian Compound" in Jerusalem than to show up for duty. More are organizing and protesting every single day as the Israeli media is finding it difficult to control the narrative. More social media profiles are locking themselves down because people fighting against the rightwing there know they're being watched and what they risk.

So, ok, not all the people, but the government and the people it represents (the majority that kept voting it in) are indeed to blame. If Netanyahu is so unpopular, how is he still in power? How has he been in power for decades? There's criticism on many specifics, mostly domestic issues and protecting the Supreme Court, but in general he enjoys broad support. It's not some undemocratic / unrepresentative aberration that he's been in power so long.

There was a problem long before Netanyahu. The Nakba? That was carried out by "liberal" zionists. So was everything else long before Likud and Kahanists showed up to make things worse.

And yeah, we've done worse, but not with so many cameras rolling.

Give Netanyahu plenty of blame, but let's not pretend he worked alone. That just covers the fact that Israel has been violently oppressing Palestine for many decades.

[yardwork]

51. Yes, it would be acceptable to criticize Israeli leaders.

I see hypocrisy among DUers who are proud of America, proud to have served in the American military - who then turn around and treat Israelis as less than human.

Unless we are willing to be treated the same way - and I don't think many of us are - then let's stop bashing Jewish people and all Israelis.

Why did Netanyahu get elected? For more reasons than we have for electing monsters like Trump.

Criticize Netanyahu, criticize his government, criticize Israelis for voting for this - but don't cross the line into saying "Israel always pretends to be a victim while murdering and stealing" unless you're willing to say the same or worse of the U.S. And I don't think you're going to find a pure nation with a spotless history.

[ShazzieB]

75. I appreciate this clarification.

I have always been a strong supporter of Israel's right to exist and the right of the Jewish people to have a nation state of their own after centuries of being treated as unwelcome intruders in countries that didn't accept them as citizens.

At the same time, I am also critical of Netanyu's treatment of the Palestinians, and I resent the fact that some seem to equate that with antisemitism. I believe it's possible to be critical of the Israeli government and of Netanyahu without having ill feelings toward the Jews as a people or Judaism as a religion. I appreciate your clarification of that distinction.

[yardwork]

77. Exactly. And btw I'm not Jewish.

I have zero Jewish heritage. I'm just an average white old lady who notices the words people use.

[JI7]

19. It makes it impossible to have a real discussion about

how to end things.

The ignoring and denying of what Israel has faced and hostages still being held there and instead its just about how evil these people are .

[Lonestarblue]

23. I've read at least four books, three of them by Jewish writers, on Israel's history and founding.

In 1948, instead of acknowledging that Palestinians occupied the land that Israel had been given by the British, the government sent its soldiers to evict Palestinians with no notice and bulldozers to destroy their homes and possessions. Over 750,000 Palestinians were forced into refugee camps with little more than the clothes on their backs. They were not a nomadic people. Their ancestors had lived on that land for thousands of years. Of course, Palestinians responded with their own violence. And so began over 75 years of violence from both sides.

Israel’s first leader, David ben Gurion, spoke openly about the ethnic cleansing of the Palestinian people, with the goal of forcing them all to go to other countries and leave all of Palestine to Israel. That goal was far beyond the 1948 plan for two states, but it seems as though Netanyahu is determined to fulfill ben Gurion’s goal, and since Palestinians want their own state and culture, he is simply murdering as many of them as possible and making Gaza completely unlivable for them. That is genocide, and it is to be condemned no matter who is perpetrating it.

[yardwork]

34. And there are many other books that give a more nuanced history.

[Blue Full Moon]

78. Absolutely

[sarisataka]

64. It isn't ignorance

It is willful rewriting and/or ignoring history.

[yardwork]

68. It's a mix.

A lot of people are parroting things they've heard without bothering to question or learn more.

I never underestimate the power of ignorance and complacency. Being inclined to dislike Jewish people helps it along, too.

[lark]

11. Pretending that justifies murder of an entire people is also ignoring history and humanity.

[yardwork]

18. I haven't seen anyone say it justifies murder of an entire people.

[lark]

20. Not directly, but saying destroying Gaza & it's people is ok - and ignoring the reality is really the same thing, IMO.

[yardwork]

21. I haven't seen anyone on DU say that.

Trump and his people, yes. But not on DU. Again, I don't see every post on DU.

[Skittles]

102. that's pretty much what the WHATABOUTISM is all about

and it's why IT NEVER FUCKING ENDS

[EdmondDantes_]

30. Serious question, did you somehow not see the part where I said I'm not defending that?

I'll say it again since you seemed to have missed it. I am not defending what Israel is doing. It sucks and is a genocide. I can equally believe whatever Israel has done in the past didn't deserve multiple wars and repeated attacks including the war crimes Hamas committed on October 7th.

I don't have to embrace historical illiteracy and something that is strongly correlated with antisemitism to think what Israel is doing is a genocide. Neither should anyone else. But given the topic of the thread was Israel claiming to be a victim, I felt the need to correct that.

[70sEraVet]

12. I think that's a fair statement.

Just like, the whole history of the US shouldn't be tainted by the malevolence of Trump.

[lark]

15. It is their purpose to change us to a vicious undemocratic country & they start from the top.

Our history was uneven but arced toards the good prior to tsf. Now, he's pushing us to an oligarchy.

[yardwork]

22. I think that saying our history "was uneven" misrepresents how bad we've been.

[malthaussen]

24. It's a toughie.

Bad compared to whom? Do comparisons even matter? I can't think of an imperialist country that hasn't been "bad" to some degree. Does degree matter, or is it a case of "a little bit pregnant?" The thing that makes historians cynics is the fact that countries (and the people in them, at least a significant number) are really nasty institutions.

That said, it seems to me the State of Israel has crossed any pretend lines civilized nations have established for a "just war" long ago. But it's all part of a general degeneration in the world to authoritarian and violent conduct.

-- Mal

[yardwork]

27. I think the US did far worse in Iraq and Afghanistan alone.

We had far, far less of a justification, too.

What we did in Fallujah alone is worse than anything Israel has ever done. And that's a tiny part of what we did just between 2003 and 2021. Kidnapping and torturing teenage Afghan shepherds, the people who are still in Gitmo and can never be released because we've tortured them out of their minds.

I could go on and on. We can't erase our guilt by pointing at Israel.

[CivicGrief]

53. And you can't erase Israel's guilt by pointing out the faults of the US.

But that seems what you are trying to do.

[yardwork]

56. Both nations are guilty.

Both nations are home to citizens who are cruel, stupid, and bloodthirsty. Both nations have elected governments at this moment who are evil and are committing atrocities.

But, both nations also have citizens who disagree with their elected leaders' actions. Both nations are democracies with constitutions. Both nations deserve to exist.

Israelis are no more inherently evil than Americans.

That's all I'm asking DUers to think about. Not excusing anything.

[Bettie]

96. I would assume that most of us here

are fully aware that the US has done some truly awful things in the past and in the present. In the future more terrible things will happen. That won't be okay.

I won't support them. After 9/11, horrific as it was, both DH and I were worried (vaguely sick) because we knew that many people would die from our nation's need for revenge over the attack.

Did we attack the countries responsible for the attack? Nope.

We went after Iraq because W wanted a war there and Afghanistan, where the "training camps" were...not word one to, say Saudi Arabia where most of them were from, where Bin Laden was from. Maybe W (and his handlers) should have paid attention to warnings of an imminent attack instead of whatever the fuck he was doing.

Our guilt as a nation can never be expunged, but none of the wrongdoing of the US makes what Netanyahu and his group of far right wing supporters are doing right either.

This is weapons grade whataboutism.

[yardwork]

97. It's not whataboutism. I condemn Israel's actions.

I'm not excusing them. Full stop.

I'm saying that it's wrong to attack the very existence of Israel. It's wrong to attack all Israelis. And it's very wrong to blame all Jewish people. I see all that here, regularly.

I'm trying to get people to think. The same people who say nasty things about Jewish people here wouldn't dream of saying the same about all US citizens.

Here on DU we are proud to speak out against Trump, as we spoke out against W. I know many Jewish people - including Israelis - who have been speaking out against Israel's actions for decades.

Just stop with the broad brush attacks on Jewish people, that's all I'm saying. Not to you personally, but to DU.

[Crunchy Frog]

113. I haven't seen *any* posts on here making broad brush attacks on Jewish people.

If I saw such a post I would alert on it, as I hope you're doing when you see one. If it didn't get removed, I would try to directly contact Earl G about it. That kind of thing is completely unacceptable on DU.

I don't believe any criticism of Israel, no matter how harsh, is the same thing as attacking the Jewish people.

And just so you know, I hold the Russian people responsible for what's happening in Ukraine, even though they haven't had any meaningful say in choosing their leader in 25 years. I hold the American people in aggregate responsible for what's happening in this country right now. I don't believe that Israel is any more special than any other country. And I don't equate the state of Israel with Jewish people as a whole.

[lark]

31. Yeah, I was being nice for a change. lol

[yardwork]

35. Maybe be a little nicer to Jewish people?

I'm serious. I see so much piling on Jewish people and Israel while what we did and do gets whitewashed. Literally whitewashed.

The history of the U.S. is almost unbelievably horrific.

[lark]

43. I don't whitewash AAmerican atrocities, but the worst was 100's of years ago.

Since 1900's we have not committed genocide and our moral arc was positive until tsf. israels genocide is happening now & getting worse.

[yardwork]

48. I'm afraid that's simply not true.

There are lynchings of black people into the 21st century. Read about the Tulsa massacre. Read about the rise of the Klan in the teens and twenties - including President Woodrow Wilson! He was an active member of the Klan who promoted white supremacy.

Read about what's been done to American Indian children in "schools" that stripped them of their heritage, raped them, farmed them out as slaves. To this day.

Look at what we did to Vietnam, Laos, Cambodia. For no reason! Look what we did in Iraq and Afghanistan. Millions killed in nations that were no threat to us.

Look at what Trump is doing. The atrocities we committed are not in the distant past. We're still doing them.

[MorbidButterflyTat]

92. Like you've said

I haven't seen American history whitewashing on DU.

But I don't see every post.

[IbogaProject]

29. Irgun started it all w a truck bomb on the 40s

Then the Nakba happened, https://www.un.org/unispal/about-the-nakba/

I'm not sure what percent of land was actually purchased there vs what amount has steadaly been taken. It mystifies me as I've personally known very nice, kind Israelis, and even have family and friends there.

[yardwork]

36. It did not start in the 1940s.

[IbogaProject]

47. OK 1930's

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Irgun_attacks

But the King David Hotel truck bombing was in the 1940s and was an escalation.

[AloeVera]

95. Jews owned 6% of land in 1947.

Of Mandate Palestine.

The rest was Arab ownership - split between public ownership (held in communal or religious trusts) and private ownership.

Under Partition, the UN gave 55% of the land to the Jewish state (wirh Jews comprising 1/3 of population).

After the 1948 Arab-Israeli war, Palestinians share was further reduced through ethnic cleansing - Israel had expanded it's share of the land to 78%.

Palestinian share has been reduced even more since then, of course. I wouldn't be surprised if it's now 5-10% of Mandate Palestine.

People are nice and kind everywhere. It doesn't make them immune to being blind about their own injustices and history.

[Exp]

45. Hold on! Israel begun invading other countries for expansion within decades of being GIVEN ( yes GIVEN) their own

fucking country.

[moniss]

46. Also not understanding why there is violence is also

not valid. All violence is not justified but what has gone on in Palestine and the entire region since the onset of WW1 has many facets that cannot just be boiled down to "one side attacking another innocent side" sorts of explanations. The main root problems began, and still continue to be, about oil and shipping and the machinations of Western countries for their greed and control.

The British used both Arabs and Jews in deceptive ways making promises to each it knew were in conflict and couldn't be readily kept. In the period between the World Wars the Western countries knew well the importance of oil for their military needs and the British in particular were determined to hang on to their colonialist ways of extracting resources at their benefit and of little gain to the people of those regions. Along with US involvement they alternated between various groups and factions arming and financially supporting one or the other as their plans to install "friendly" puppets as leaders resulted in a constantly changing landscape of murder and backstabbing. What lesson did the West teach these various groups by such conduct? So now the West pleads that violence is not the way to conduct matters? The West still uses violence, subterfuge, dishonesty, clandestine operations etc. in the region and they support Israel's activities for those same means.

During much of this time prior to partition the Haganah, by way of it's groups like the Irgun and Stern Gang, carried out violent attacks on the British in Palestine as well as throughout Palestine. But partition was proposed but was only accepted by one side. The Western powers again used their position of strength after WW2 to promise the Arab nations and Palestinians that all of their issues would be attended to such as "right of return", "compensation for land taken" etc. and absolutely none of it has been. What the Arabs and Persians did see however was the Western powers ramping up and continuing their efforts at controlling the internal affairs and leaders of Arabs and Persians by supporting a whirlwind of different factions/persons using all of the previously described methods. The US and the British were also trying to outdo one another during the period as they began to realize their previous oil deals that were so much in their favor now had to be renegotiated.

The Iranians for example have very good reasons and basis to hate the Western governments and to never believe a single word that comes from the mouth of a Western leader. The actions of the US and the British in the '50's and since were and are as reprehensible as anything the Iranians of which the Iranians stand accused. This sort of thing wasn't isolated either. During this entire period we engaged in these sorts of activities in Iraq, Syria, Lebanon, Egypt etc.

During the whole of time since the partition Israel has also engaged in the clandestine activities in other countries in the region and around the world. The portrayal of that nation as just "trying to be left alone" is total BS and always has been. But it plays for the propaganda effect. For example Israel has tried to portray the Gaza conflict as "We left them alone and then they attacked us." Pure BS. Israel, after withdrawal, turned Gaza into a prison with control of the flow of goods and the waters in the hands of Israel. Along with that there was constant clandestine spying activities and placing of surveillance equipment inside of Gaza.

Yes indeed nobody should have rockets rain down upon them but to portray this as unprovoked and without basis is to not accept the reality of more than 100 years and I have only given some of the major aspects and there are so many more reasons why people in that region are absolutely right to believe nothing that comes out of the mouth of any Western leader. They've heard it before and they know those words and assurances are worthless and usually are are deceptive and a ploy for other things.

Put bluntly leaders made dueling promises they knew they could not keep. Then tried to manage the fallout using despicable means while protecting their own greed and needs. So they took land from one and pledged it to another while promising to compensate and allow return. They never did and the one who got the land swore they never would allow for it. Based on broken promises some of the nations in the region took the approach that since the deal was broken then the side that got the land was illegitimate.

But a bell cannot be un-rung and so here we are. So now even what little area the Palestinians were shunted to, Gaza and the West Bank, is to be taken after being a killing field. Let alone the issue of what about the Palestinians in refugee camps in other countries, set up by the ones making promises, and promised all along that "some day" the promises made would be kept. The Western betrayal of it's promises to the Palestinians for over 75 years is horrendous and no amount of violence from either side or attempts to whitewash it will remove the lasting stain of what colonial and expansionist powers have done.

Once people have been lied to repeatedly and whipsawed for over 100 years no amount of "conferences", "peace talks", "summits" etc. will accomplish anything as long as one party says that the main promises that are yet outstanding are forbidden for discussion. This refusal to make good on those main promises is also used by the other side to say there won't be peace until they are fulfilled. Fulfilled. Not just more words in the wind. That wind has blown through the desert for over a century.

When Netanyahu says he wants to have an Arab government take over civilian control he actually means an Arab leadership approved by him who will do exactly and only what he wants. He sees himself as another "Lord of The Desert". It is not about anything to be done for the Palestinians but rather what will be done to them.

My writing this is not an exhaustive telling of everything that has gone on and there is certainly more such as the British in Egypt, The French in Lebanon, the Suez Canal, the oil pipelines, the various incarnations of Western oil companies operating in the region, the concern about Soviet influence and on and on. The point I have tried to make is that there is much more than an "us versus them" or "they started it" nature to all of this. Even if Hamas and Hezbollah, along with Iran, all disappeared you would still have this massive problem where a large area of land was taken, people expelled by force, promises made to compensate/allow return and the promises being thrown aside. Combined with decades of occupation and repression in what little land left to the Palestinians, the broken promises aren't going to go away. The problems they were meant to address aren't going to go away either.

There are those who don't like the term "genocide" but they cannot refute that the death and injury to a civilian population on this scale is a wholesale slaughter and is anything less than horrific in scale compared to the attack suffered by Israel. They cannot refute that withholding food and medicine to the point of starvation, massive malnutrition and medical deprivation has taken place when doctors and experts from across the globe have visited and described it. Whatever term they wish to use does nothing to change the fact that it is a massive barbaric attack on a civilian population that grossly exceeds what came before.

So here we are. I recommend 2 very good books on the whole subject both by the historian James Barr. First is "A Line in the Sand: The Anglo French Struggle for The Middle East 1914-1948" also under other subtitles and then "Lords of the Desert: The Battle Between The United States and Great Britain for Supremacy in The Modern Middle East" also under other subtitles. These are heavily footnoted and a great deal of the information is from classified files only released in the last decades.

[AloeVera]

90. Thanks for all your insight and knowledge. Great analysis.

This especially:

The point I have tried to make is that there is much more than an "us versus them" or "they started it" nature to all of this. Even if Hamas and Hezbollah, along with Iran, all disappeared you would still have this massive problem where a large area of land was taken, people expelled by force, promises made to compensate/allow return and the promises being thrown aside. Combined with decades of occupation and repression in what little land left to the Palestinians, the broken promises aren't going to go away. The problems they were meant to address aren't going to go away either.

There are those who don't like the term "genocide" but they cannot refute that the death and injury to a civilian population on this scale is a wholesale slaughter and is anything less than horrific in scale compared to the attack suffered by Israel. They cannot refute that withholding food and medicine to the point of starvation, massive malnutrition and medical deprivation has taken place when doctors and experts from across the globe have visited and described it. Whatever term they wish to use does nothing to change the fact that it is a massive barbaric attack on a civilian population that grossly exceeds what came before.

[EdmondDantes_]

105. You completely missed the point of my response in the context of this thread

The OP and a number of agreeing posts are using antisemitic connotations in saying that Israel and the larger Jewish population going back to well before the creation of Israel have never been the victim of violence. That's just an utterly historically illiterate perspective.

Yes the situation was and is more complicated than that, but even your own post leaves out that much of what you said about leaders not making good on their promises, applies just as much to Palestinian leaders and leaders of other middle eastern countries in their dealings with Israel as the other way around. If you're going to suggest that people shouldn't expect nobody to respond to Israel with hatred for reasons of the US and Britain making promises, well that's not blaming the root cause appropriately and kind of serves to underscore my point that in fact Israel gets blamed for things that aren't their fault (in addition to things that they are blamed for that are their fault). And given that Hamas keeps making promises and cease fires and then attacks, should Israelis believe them this time? Likewise, should Palestinians believe Israel won't keep expanding settlements this time because they keep expanding settlements.

But none of that justifies the genocide Israel is committing and it didn't justify the horrific attacks Hamas has committed. The violence started long before the Britain or the U.S. came into the picture and will continue as long as all sides are led by leaders too stubborn to work for peace because their political power benefits from generating hatred. To me it doesn't matter who started it because it's irrelevant at this point. It started centuries before I was born.

I agree with you that the situation is vastly more complicated than my previous post laid out, but strangely you directed the reply to me instead of the far more simplistic notion that Israel is whiny from the OP.

[moniss]

106. It's hardly missing the point and I stand by everything I said and I would

point out to you that your statement about me "leaving out" things is not valid because I pointed out that there is much more but you apparently are under the impression that a single post on DU should encompass every historical detail and fact from over 100 years and more. That is why there are books to read. You brought up the point of violence and validity. I added to it and did not contradict in any way the statements you made. I expanded the discussion about validity of feelings and also I would note, once again, that I clearly stated that violence by either side is not going to resolve the issues of the despicable conduct of the West.

Your assumption that Great Britain, France and the US were late to the violence in the region rather than orchestrating it is in direct conflict with the known history before the end of WW1 and going forward well prior to the partition. Also I indicated that Israel should not suffer attacks but your comment was about the violence and understanding the situation and you brought up the validity of history. I expanded on the history and why groups use violence, why they feel this way and why agreements with the West/Israel are viewed as barely worth the paper they're written on and why this will continue to be a problem until the main promises made to the Palestinians long ago are addressed. I don't believe they ever will be addressed willingly by Israel because they have stated there will never be compensation or right of return. So the West can go along pretending to make agreements that bring peace but it will not happen. I have stated over and over many times that a "solution" should be imposed along with an international peacekeeping force similar to what has worked in the Sinai for decades now.

The purpose of my post was clear that people should understand that the last 100 years use of violence among groups in the region is an outgrowth of the conduct and interference by Western nations using all of the various factions for their own purposes and showing them that violence against others is what the Western nations have promoted for over 100 years. To say it doesn't matter to understand why the violence is there reduces this to a simplistic "fight or don't fight" when the matters are far more complex. You can't solve complex situations with simple decrees or desires for some sort of "let's stop fighting and then there will be peace" approach.

The broken promises and meddling by the West in the countries and all of the factions in the Middle East are at the heart of why this never gets resolved and it is not going to end, as I pointed out, even if Hamas, Hezbollah and Iran were to magically disappear. The facts of the promises remain and always will until they are addressed and resolved and arming one group or another will never make it go away.

A response to a comment should not automatically be assumed to be in conflict with that comment, criticizing that comment or negating that comment. A response may be to add and expand.

[Blue Full Moon]

69. Just forget and look over

The fact that Israel killed a record number of Palestinian children before the conflict. That includes American citizens. Funny how all this just benefits Trump and Netanyahu.

[yardwork]

37. Why not? We do it all the time.

Look how the US acted after 9/11.

[Exp]

44. Huh, What? Can you be more specific? I mean, you need to be more specific! Bombing Iraq was obviously wrong, but that

was not GENOCIDE by any definition. What the IDF is doing is definitely genocide. How fucking ironic is that?

[yardwork]

50. The U.S. killed and tortured millions in Iraq and Afghanistan.

Neither of those countries attacked us or threatened us.

How is that not genocide? How many Americans pumped their fists and yelled, "Bomb them back to the Stone Age!"

[writerJT]

58. Are you condemning both genocides?

[yardwork]

60. I condemn every genocide.

I condemn what Israel is doing in Gaza. I condemn what we're doing at our southern border and the ICE kidnappings. I condemn the U.S. genocide of indigenous peoples - an atrocity that continues to this day. I condemn the U.S. treatment of people from Africa - an atrocity that continues to this day in the many ways in which Black people are systematically oppressed and denied equal rights.

I don't condemn every American. I don't condemn the existence of America. I don't condemn every Israeli or the existence of Israel.

[writerJT]

62. That is consistent.

I think the post you replied to was talking about the hypocrisy of people claiming to be against genocide and using slogans like “Never Again!” but applying that selectively. Maybe they should change it to “Never Again — Sort Of!”

You appear to be consistent. The people I described above are not.

[yardwork]

67. If you're talking about Jewish hypocrisy be sure to include us, too.

Plenty of Jewish people condemn Israel's actions, just as many of us condemn American atrocities.

Be consistent.

[writerJT]

79. Is this how you approach every issue?

Are there issues or events you condemn without “what-aboutting” it?

Or is this a special consideration for Israel’s war crimes and ethnic cleansing atrocities?

[yardwork]

86. Yes, I'm on a mission to point out an unfair double standard.

Shortly after October 7, 2023 I posted a thread here on DU pointing out that Israel and Jewish people were being smeared. It's just gotten worse.

I'm a little old white lady living in North Carolina. I have no Jewish ancestors. I haven't agreed with plenty of things Israel has done over the years but I sure know blatant hatred against Jews when I see it.

And I see it everywhere lately. I don't like it.

[writerJT]

87. Selective double standard.

Perfect.

Thank you

[Skittles]

112. the WHATABOUTISM is absolutely rampant with I/P

it's why that shit NEVER FUCKING ENDS

the "HOLY LAND"

[Exp]

65. "Tortured millions".. I don't think so.

[yardwork]

66. Killed and tortured millions.

[Exp]

70. Not true. High estimate is just over ONE million dead, low est. is 150k dead. That is not millions.

[Exp]

73. And it wasn't GENOCIDE as Israel is committing in Gaza and West Bank. Not even close.

THE WORLD WILL NEVER FORGET.

[yardwork]

76. "Bomb them back to the Stone Age."

"Leave nothing but rubble."

"Kill every man woman and child."

"Kill all the ragheads."

Sounds like genocide to me.

Especially since those countries weren't our neighbors, were no threat to us, and had not attacked us.

[writerJT]

81. You've abandoned numbers

and switched to words spoken by some people.

You’re right about one thing — those “sound like” genocide.

“I haven't seen anyone on DU say that.”

[yardwork]

82. I haven't abandoned anything.

I stated that I believe that millions of people were killed and tortured because of our wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. I've seen fussing about that number but no plausible refutation. I continue to believe my statement.

Then I was told that it "wasn't GENOCIDE!!!" and I offered some quotes to bolster my belief that what we did was genocide. And those aren't obscure quotes. Those words and phrases like it were repeated for decades by leaders in the U.S. government as well as many U.S. citizens.

Genocide is about intent. Their words reveal intent.

[writerJT]

85. But

Have you seen anyone on DU say that?

That is your standard (numerous times in this thread) when someone quotes pro-genocide Israel supporters, and you appear to use it to close off the debate. So let’s use it here.

Also:

I've seen fussing about that number but no plausible refutation. I continue to believe my statement.

That’s “prove me wrong” logic. ❌

[yardwork]

89. This post makes no sense to me.

I have a rule that I stop responding after two or three back and forths.

[writerJT]

94. LOL

Sure you do.

[Uncle Joe]

38. Israel is an apartheid nation based on 20th and 21st century colonialism.

The United States was a slave owning nation based on 18th and 19th century colonialism.

The watershed point in history, was the Geneva Conventions and establishment of the United Nations; in attempts to prohibit genocide; humanity's greatest sin, while supposedly setting rules for us to live by, and to prevent descending into the ultimate catastrophe; a third world war.

You can't have both; colonialism, apartheid, slavery, ethnic cleansing, and genocide on the one hand, and a decent civilized Earth based order for the nations of the world to live by without destroying itself on the other.

That's most apparent in the way we have trashed and weakened the United Nations; humanity's best hope for survival just because they can't betray their own charter in condoning mass atrocities that we approve of or profit from.

The Palestinian people deserve their own freedom, independence and the right to self-determination, they have been treated poorly at least since 1948 and the result from this betrayal of our commitment to supporting an international rules based order has been the absolute diminishment of our own freedom here at home to the point of our own democracy becoming threatened.

You can't serve two masters.

Thanks for the thread Duncanpup.

[LexVegas]

41. Media from country with largest military in history of world whines about another countries forces. nt

[yardwork]

52. And pretends to be purer than the driven snow.

It's nauseating.

[leftstreet]

57. DURec

[Ping Tung]

63. Patriots like to talk about dying for their country but never about killing for their country.

Bertrand Russell

[sarisataka]

74. Heaven knows that nation has never been attacked without justification

Whether the date has been May 15 or October 7, the mere existence of the nation has been seen as justification for any action against its people.

[AloeVera]

88. See post #46 for a very thoughtful and nuanced retort to such oversimplification.

We can all learn a lot, still, as long as we are open to uncomfortable truths.

[sarisataka]

93. I can agree it is more nuanced than most

Yet it still glosses over other uncomfortable truths e.g. The invasion of Israel by seven Arab nations with the goal of the elimination of the state of Israel.

It actually reinforces my point that one sides actions are viewed in a range from “understandable” to “justified”, whereas the other side is consistently condemned regardless of any preceding event.

[AloeVera]

107. The exact opposite is true.

Throughout this ordeal, your side has always presented Israel's actions in Gaza as understandable and justifiable. Every illegal or cruel act, war crime and atrocity was defended as being perfectly reasonable and understandable. Because Hamas blah blah. Everything was justified.

Whereas if anyone ever DARED to mention what happened prior to October 7th, we were shot down in flames as Hamas-lovers, Islamists, Jew-haters, terrorist supporters. We were required to condemn Hamas - but it wasn't just Hamas, really, the conflation with Palestinians was just under the surface though it bubbled over sometimes - "regardless of any preceding event" like a 58-year brutal occupation, the theft of Palestinian lands and the ethnic cleansing of a million people, the denial of self-determination, the daily killings of Palestinians...

You can't deny all of that is true.

And, btw, the real uncomfortable truth about the Arab nations attacking in 1948 is what happened starting in 1947 - many months before the Arab armies showed up and a reason for why they showed up. And why do you think they wanted to eliminate Israel from the Middle Eastern lands they'd considered Muslim holy land for centuries and which they never agreed to relinquish to European immigrants and refugees of a different faith? What's missing from your statement - a very popular talking point I've noticed - is any recognition or awareness of the Arab/Muslim POV and that they had a legitimate grievance - from their perspective. Just as Palestinians had legitimate grievances before October 7th and they were ignored too.

It seems only Israel can have prior grievances and "preceding events" and Palestinians are just to be condemned as if they were born terrorists and no "preceding event" ever happened to them.

[sarisataka]

109. Since you incorrectly assumed my side, everything that follows is not applicable

But to your comment of everything was justified, let's review November 1, 2023:

Ghazi Hamad vowed to keep carrying out attacks similar to October 7 until Israel is completely destroyed, saying it had "no place on our land".

The official said Hamas "must teach Israel a lesson" and intended to do so "again and again".

Hamas launched a brutal attack during Nova music festival - which coincided with the Jewish festival of Simchat Torah - with at least 260 killed and several kidnapped after they stormed the site.

"We will repeat the October 7 attack time and again until Israel is annihilated," Hamad told Memri, a research organisation based in the US.

"We are victims - everything we do is justified."

He continued: "Israel is a country that has no place on our (Palestine’s) land.

https://www.lbc.co.uk/news/hamas-october-7-attack-repeat-israel-annihilated-ghazi-hamad/
{Emphasis added}

Yes Palestinians 100% had grievances. Does that make the atrocities of October 7 justified? Is it that difficult to condemn the organization that planned and organized the attack? An organization that also sees the Palestinians as pawns? (I can reference for you Hamas statements that they knew Israel would launch a huge counter attack and Hamas welcomed it, Hamas believed the larger the response and the more Palestinian death the better) Or does would such condemnation also mean the speaker is abandoning support for the Palestinian people?

You have a star so you can go and search the posts on October 7. The very first reply to the report of a terrorist attack questioned if there was actually an attack or if it was propaganda. It took twelve minutes before the first 'what did you expect, they had it coming' post appeared. People were still being murdered and kidnapped when the excuses for terrorism began.

[Blue Full Moon]

80. Whoever fights monsters

Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you.
Friedrich Nietzsche

[yardwork]

83. I believe that our crimes in Iraq and Afghanistan are being visited against us.

The day George W. Bush invaded Iraq I feared that our country was over. It's taking several decades but we are in a rapid downward spiral.

[AloeVera]

91. And that goes both ways.

To the Palestinians of 1947-48, 1967 and after, and right up to today, the Israelis were/are the monsters.

[Blue Full Moon]

99. Stealing people's homes because of a book of myths

[vanessa_ca]

103. Miriam Margolyes was branded antisemitic for saying the same

[gulliver]

84. I'm glad I don't hear significant legitimate Dem leadership taking this attitude.

Frankly, I look at Hamas and all radical Islamist ideologies–those death cults who want to turn the world into a global dictatorship ruled by authoritarian, ultra-conservative, "priests"–as having beef directly with me. Israel aside, the Dahmer-esque savages of Hamas attacked me personally, as a human being, a parent, a believer in liberalism, an American, and a Democrat. Radical Islamism is the enemy of all virtuous, pro-human people.

[Bettie]

100. Do you look at the rapidly-expanding

"Christian" right in the US? Because they are on about the same page with a slightly different image of their god...(he's white...or orange, I'm not sure which one they envision at this point).

Radical religion in general is the enemy of all virtuous, pro-human people.

Religion is the most toxic thing humans have ever invented, designed as an excuse for hate.

[gulliver]

101. Yes, I do think radical religion and radical ideology of any kind create problems

It's always a matter of threat assessment. Radicalism is the underlying characteristic. Many ideologies attract an obnoxious fringe of people who are primarily radicals (outcasts, the mentally broken, psychopaths, grifters, etc.) and who simply "flavor" their radicalism according to a given ideology. For them, the rebellion, intra-clique status, the opportunity to be sadistic or masochistic, the opportunity to grift is what drives them. The ideology just gives them costumes and talking points.

The Christian right is nothing like the threat that the radical Muslim right is (Islamism). All you need to do is observe the flow direction of refugees to see that. At least that is one way to view it.

[Xavier Breath]

98. Rec.

[David__77]

108. The crybully aspect is notable.