Green Party of the U.S. and the Democratic Socialist Party of the U.S.A.

[carterbob1]

I am considering officially joining the Green Party of the U.S. after reading much of their platform on their website and corresponding with a few registered members of that party. I also recently read through much of the platform of the Democratic Socialists of the U.S.A. and found much that I agree with there, too. In fact, both parties seem to have much in common when it comes to certain core issues. I am interested in replies from people who might be able to shed some light on any important differences between the two parties that one might consider when trying to make a choice about which one to join.

[RKP5637]

1. You have to go lightly on this on DU, because I think this is a TOS violation, and you

are indirectly or directly advocating an alternative party.

[NYC Liberal]

2. 3-3 to Leave It

At Sun Dec 23, 2012, 06:14 PM an alert was sent on the following post:

Green Party of the U.S. and the Democratic Socialist Party of the U.S.A.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022061994

REASON FOR ALERT:

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate. (See <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=aboutus#communitystandards" target="_blank">Community Standards</a>.)

ALERTER'S COMMENTS:

I don't think this one's among friends here.

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Sun Dec 23, 2012, 06:17 PM, and the Jury voted 3-3 to LEAVE IT.

Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: If it's a troll, it's harmless. If it's a true question, then let the flames begin!
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: No explanation given
Juror #3 voted to HIDE IT and said: No explanation given
Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: Maybe, but doesn't rise to violation of CS.
Juror #5 voted to HIDE IT and said: Sign on the door says DemocraticUnderground. Violation.
Juror #6 voted to HIDE IT and said: Sorry, this is a Democratic Party site for members of the DP. Advocacy of third parties is a TOS violation.

Thank you very much for participating in our Jury system, and we hope you will be able to participate again in the future.

[RKP5637]

4. Thanks!

[carterbob1]

8. Wow!

Certainly no harm intended on my part, and I did not realize that posing such a question violated any rules by DU, so my sincerest apologies if I did not read the terms and conditions carefully enough. I also realized that I should have said Democratic Socialists of America rather than Democratic Socialists of the U.S.A.

[Puregonzo1188]

14. I am glad to see that I am not the only DUer who when called up for jury service is refusing to play

the role of thought police. And for what it is worth it is many times opinions I don't agree with. Some of the reasons for alerts, at least the ones I've seen when called for jury duty, have been down right Orwellian.

[socialist_n_TN]

24. I REALLY have a problem with censoring discussion........

90% of the time, I'm going to leave it alone even if I don't agree with it. This is a discussion board, so if you don't like it, DISCUSS don't tattle. I'll usually vote to hide ONLY if it's a CLEAR personal attack.

[flying rabbit]

53. That's how I roll.

too many alerts are: don't agree with poster = poster is troll, please hide.

[99th_Monkey]

31. In this case, leaving it is IMHO good news for DU

If we can't discuss this kind of stuff, at least once in awhile,
I think it runs risk of DU becoming too narrow and insular.

[IDoMath]

46. +1

[HereSince1628]

5. DU1 was for Democrats and other progressives...

I haven't bothered to look in years... but Greens were generally welcome up until 2004.

[LWolf]

10. The site used

to self- identify as "left wing."

No more.

Some wording was changed moving to DU3; I think the site has abandoned any pretense of tolerating non-Democrats.

[carterbob1]

16. Recently logged in to this site

Thanks for the clarification. It has been years since I last logged in to DU and did not realize it had changed so much.

[LWolf]

17. The shift

seems to coincide with the election of a neoliberal Democratic president.

I guess that shouldn't be a surprise.

[HereSince1628]

44. I always see "neoliberal" as its original application to the free-marketeers of the 1930s

The right of the Democratic elite was the DLC, is now the Third Way, and they refer to their non-elite campfollowers as New Democrats.

And very oddly, Third Way is the way that Phalangists on the Iberian penninsuala refer to what by name is associated with fascism but seems to me be some sort of contemporary version of the pro-corporatism

[Samantha]

69. Bill Clinton was searching for a descriptive term for his administration and the one bandied

about was "Third Way." I believe this was to denote a Democrat who could compromise with Republicans in the way Clinton did cutting welfare. This new Third Way is just a new version of the DLC which the old DU helped in contributing to running out of town. I hope to see the new DU do the same for the Third Way because it is just a right-leaning camp defiling the word "Democrat."

Sam

[LWolf]

78. Yes.

I oppose them in any name: dlc, 3rd way, new dem...

[Resonance_Chamber]

72. Plenty of Non Democrats post here, many with high post counts

Don't understand it at all either.

Being a citizen of another country one cannot be a memebr of the Democratic party nor can they legally vote in US Elections but they rountinly post here on DU.

IMHO DU is more for centrists and moderates, REAL Liberals and Progressives are tolerated at best at least that is the way I see it.

Be a non citizen, non democrat and non US voter, toe the 3rd way line and you can post what you want on DU.

[LWolf]

79. Yes.

They don't post their thoughts as freely as they used, though.

I'm a Democrat, and I don't post my thoughts as freely. I'm an "old" Democrat, on the liberal left, staunchly opposed to the creeping disease that has taken over the party: dlc, 3rd way, "new dem," corporatist neoliberal crap.

[WilmywoodNCparalegal]

80. I am a non-citizen but I live in the U.S. and pay taxes

like everyone else. Therefore, I'm in the 'taxation without representation' category. I can't vote, of course. However, I didn't see anything in the ToS that says I can't participate in discussions on DU. I will gladly recuse myself if you can point out where I am specifically excluded.

[Resonance_Chamber]

81. Not being a citizen you are not entitled to representation

even if you do pay taxes.

I pay taxes to other countries and I do not get representation either.

If you want representation become a citizen other wise pay your taxes, shut your piehole about them and enjoy your stay in America.

As far as posting on DU take it up with the owners of the site.

I just posted an observation of how things appear to be.

[graham4anything]

3. Ralph Nader caused Bush to be elected and the current SCOTUS by lying.

Had he not been in the race in 2000, Gore would have won the 4 electoral votes of NH
and won the election. Florida wouldn't have mattered.

but keep believing the lie about both being the same

Roberts and Alito are a direct cause of Nader running in 2000.

don't let the door hit you on the way out

[coalition_unwilling]

6. Bush was not 'elected'. He was 'installed' after a bloodless coup d'etat. Get your

facts straight. Had all the ballots in Florida been accurately counted, NH would not have mattered.

No one held a gun to Gore's head and forced him to concede. He chose to concede for reasons best known to him alone.

[graham4anything]

11. NH was in November by 8am. Florida polls closed 9am decision in December. Get the timeline straight

Ralph Nader is to blame for there needing to be a December.
100% full blame

No one else but Ralphie, the liar.

How many people stayed home believing the lies Ralphie told?

NH was counted and ended before Florida even finished their voting.

And are you saying Alito & Roberts would have been picked by Gore?
NO he would not.

Therefore there wouldn't be the rehearing on guns
there wouldn't be corporate personhood
there wouldn't have been 9-11
US wouldn't have been bankrupt

all because Ralphie lied.

The idiot should have ran for Senate or Governor somewhere
He actually could have made a 3rd party had he done that

But of course, he didn't actually want to serve. He just wanted money to whine more later.

Yup, Ralphies at fault

and Gore didn't quit til there was no legal way to win.

all thanks to Ralph Nader who is akin to an anarchist

[Puregonzo1188]

21. In New Hampshire Nader received more votes from registered Republicans than Democrats.

More registered Democrats voted for Bush than Nader in Florida.

Nader was not the only third party candidate on the Florida ballot. There were eight. All eight got more votes than the recorded difference between Bush and Gore.

Strong third party candidates, like a Nader or a Perot, also tend to bring out voters who would not otherwise have voted. We all look at the 2000 election through the lens of eight years of Bush and its hard not to, but people forget there was generally low voter enthusiasm across the political spectrum for either of the two candidates the major parties had selected. Voter turnout was the second lowest in 60 years.

People aren't all docile or stupid and do whatever Ralph Nader tells him thus his "lying" may or may not have had an impact on them. And voting behavior is pretty irrational. I've known some pretty conservative people who have voted for Nader several times solely because they are genuinely disaffected with what passes for democracy in this country and he seemed like the most visible form of protest for them.

There's really no way to tell how 2000 would have turned out had Nader not been in the race. Maybe Bush wouldn't have been able to steal the election, maybe he would have. I don't know. You don't know. We don't have a crystal ball.

But I suppose you just need someone to hate, someone to blame all kinds of problems on, some kind of magical wizard who is responsible for all the woes in the world so you can close your eyes and ignore the fact that this country's political system has all kinds of deep, longterm problems.

Have fun with that, but when you're ready to join us in the adult world there's a lot of work that needs to be done.

[socialist_n_TN]

29. Yeah that's pretty much it. Some people are going to blame Nader......

because it's convenient for Gore running a pretty weak campaign. There IS no way to tell how ANY state would have turned out without Nader. I'm of the opinion that the Nader voters were folks that wouldn't have voted anyway had Nader not been in the race. But I don't know that either.

[graham4anything]

63. 60% voted in NH down 6% from prior

which means maybe Nader got those 6% not to bother

another 1 or 2 % Gore won

but go vote for another loser like Nader and allow Jeb to win

then of course, you can whine for 4 more years after thhat

after all, whining is what Ralphie did best.

Ralphie should go on a freezing day and find a lamppost and stick his tongue out
I triple dog dare him

[Puregonzo1188]

65. "Which means maybe" Exactly. You don't know. You're speculating. Ralph Nader caused New Hampshire

voter turnout to drop? Are you kidding me?

Ralph Nader is a magical man!

[graham4anything]

70. the numbers tell the story. Nader got so many votes, those would have gone to Gore, and the 4 EV

you can believe Nader's lies(which are proven lies, SCOTUS alone shows it)

any vote that doesn't directly lead to a democratic vote is a vote against the democrats and for the tea/libertarian/republican party.

Bernie Sanders IS A DEMOCRATIC vote, no matter how loud he speaks on an issue, same as Kucinich, both are LOYAL to president Obama and the Dems and always were.

They serve a purpose but they know winning is everything.

working from within

If Ralph Nader actually wanted to serve, he had his chance to be senator and gov, or house, much like Al Franken did.

But i think Ralph did not want to actually work so hard
Far easier to get a group of fans like Ron Paul and make millions writing books, on tv, etc.
But nothing achieved by their bloviating.
There is NO major third party.
Much like Perot, who actually could have won, but he didn't want to actually win, he just was in it for a personal grudge and stopped 41, his only goal. Wihtout Perot, 41 won.

So Perot and Nader were two spoilers. One elected a republican, one a democrat.
(I know elected/selected.)

but on the placemat of the Presidents, those pictured are the winners. Like one, don't like the other.
But if you dind't like the other, it was the spoilers fault

BTW-John Anderson also contributed to Jimmy Carter's loss in 1980.
Who knows what might have happened without Anderson in the race.

[byeya]

12. The Filthy Five of the Supremes stole the election from Gore. Gore&Lieberman also gave up and turned

tail with only a minimal fight.
Gore could have won West Virginia had he taken the late Sen Byrd's offer of riding through the state for only one day. Byrd is on the right hand of god in WV and I believed him when he said that.
Nader did not cost Gore the election.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

20. If Gore wanted the votes of the left he could have pursued them..but didn't.

[davidn3600]

32. Well then don't complain when the Democrats act centrist because that's exactly what they are

[carterbob1]

35. "Don't let the door hit you on the way out..."

That is a very childish response to what was posed as a genuine and serious question.

[creeksneakers2]

7. One difference is

the Green Party is a bunch of kooks.

[carterbob1]

19. for example?

examples please...

[creeksneakers2]

28. They can't evaluate their own actions

Talk about 2000 and all they can do is point fingers. After hundreds of challenges I've never seen one discuss what THEY did.

[carterbob1]

37. ...but

Are they the same party that they were almost 13 years ago, or have there been no changes? BTW, I voted Democratic in the 2012 Election and have been a registered Democrat since I became old enough to vote in the early 1980s.

[creeksneakers2]

43. They are smaller now.

Half of them realized they made a mistake and left.

[RomneyLies]

9. Supporting either party means you support the GOP and everything they stand for.

There is only one party opposed to the GOP. supporting ay other party is supporting the GOP.

End of discussion.

[RKP5637]

15. That's pretty much what I think too. We all need to be united under the democratic tent, no

matter how contentious that can be at times herding cats, but otherwise we are kidding ourselves as all it does is fragment the democratic party which needs to be unified and focused. And if one doesn't like the direction of the democratic party, then work within to change that direction.

[Puregonzo1188]

22. DSA isn't a third party. And that's ignoring your skewed binary logic.

We might as well say, there's only one party that opposes the GOP policies and that's the Socialist Workers Party and if you don't support them, you support the GOP and it would make as much sense.

[RomneyLies]

45. The Socialist Workers PArty has ZERO cance of winning an election

Ergo, supporting it takes away support from the only party capable of defeating the Republicans.

Want the Democratic Party to move to the left, do it from inside. Support these fringe parties does nothing but push the Dmeocratic Party to the right.

[obamanut2012]

48. Nope

[RomneyLies]

52. Then fine, be partially responsible for pushing thecountry to the right

because that is PRECISELY what you do by supporting fringe left leaning parties.

[obamanut2012]

64. I'm responsible for voting in a lot of Democrats

How is that helping the GOP and pushing the country Right.

Epic Logic Fail.

[Puregonzo1188]

55. The Socialist Workers Party doesn't stand a chance, because people like you voted for the Democrats

not them. If everyone who had voted for Obama voted for them they would have won. Hell, if everyone everywhere voted for them they would have won. Same with the Libertarian Party. And the Constitution Party. And the Party for Socialism and Liberation.

[RomneyLies]

61. go ahead, mpove the country to the right

That's all you and the Socialist Workers PArty will accomplish.

For the record, I despise the Socialist Workers PArty more than the Republicans. Much worse option. In that battle fo two evils, I'd have to stay home or hold my nose worse than I ever have in my life.

Third Party voting is the biggest pipe dream in America.

[Bradical79]

30. That's an outright lie -nt

[carterbob1]

33. Then again...

Some people have observed that what the Democratic Party stands for is increasingly similar to what the GOP stands for when it comes to some issues. Not suggesting that there still aren't any important differences, but the next few years may show that the discussion is not at an end as you maintain.

[obamanut2012]

47. Absolutely not true

Non Democratic liberals are allowed and welcomed on DU, they just have to publicly not advocate for another party.

Many of us on here are non Democrats, but have been strong supporters of both Obama and the Dems.

You are spotlighting a division that doesn't exist.

And, Nader didn't lose the election for Gore. Gore won.

[RomneyLies]

50. The oriblem with supporting fringe left parties is you drive the country AS A WHOLE to the right.

When the Democratic Party loses votes to a left leaning party, the Democratic Party has no choice but to move to the right in order to replace those lost votes.

And that, in a nutshell, explains why we are where we are.

Right now, we are on the brink of the GOP FINALLY being in a position where they stand to lose MASSIVE amounts of votes to a right leaning fringe party that will most likely bear the moniker of the "American Tea Party" or some other such nonsense.

THAT will serve to push the nation as a whole to the left, but only if those on the left HELP those of us on the left who remain loyal members of the Democratic Party.

[Puregonzo1188]

56. The year Roosevelt was elected nearly a million people voted for the Socialist and Communist Parties

They sure drove the country to the right!

[RomneyLies]

60. You're right, they DID!

Due to losses of votes to the left, Roosevelt moved right and in 1937, moved to cut deficit spending. This resulted in a HUGE mistake that DEEPENED the Great Depression.

All because too many votes moved to the left of Roosevelt and the Democrats had no choice but to move to the right.

Thanks, leftists.

[obamanut2012]

67. The CPUSA has supported many, many Dems

Including President Obama's election and reelection.

The 1950s and 60s are calling you.

[Puregonzo1188]

68. Given that I was referring to the 1932 election that's a pretty delayed reaction on Roosevelt's part

Roosevelt also got a higher percentage of the vote in 36 than in 32. And most of his truly progressive reforms came in 1935.

So that's some strange history you're talking about.

[obamanut2012]

66. I vote 100% Democrat, so please tell me

How voting in lots of Dems, including Obama, is helping the GOP and moving the country to the right?

Oh right, it doesn't.

[byeya]

13. Many Democrats oppose the GOP but back their policies. These Dems want their jobs but don't

care about doing the peoples' work.

[Ruby the Liberal]

18. I am a registered Democrat, but also a member of DSA

in that I sent them money every year. I applaud their education efforts on issues that are of concern to me. They send me membership cards every year, but I am not registered with them, and no candidate has ever run (even locally) from the party where I live.

Just throwing out an option.

[carterbob1]

23. Thanks for your reply

I am have been a registered Democrat and have voted as a Democrat ever since the earlyme '80s when I became old enough to vote. I voted Democrat in the 2012 Presidential election, but have become disenchanted with some things over the years and am just looking for some "outside the box" thinking at this time.

[Puregonzo1188]

26. Outside the box thinking is good. Consider and weigh all your options. If you're disenchanted

with the democrats, you may want to try some non-electorally focussed grassroots activism. Maybe join your local Occupy movement.

You have many options politically, not all of them are mutually exclusive. You should weigh them all and not let knee jerk naysayers on this form bully you.

[carterbob1]

39. Thanks again...

for the encouragement. As this thread grows, it does appear that I have some support among other DUers for my original question and concerns. I wasn't sure at first based on the first few replies that I got.

[obamanut2012]

49. Same here

[Puregonzo1188]

25. If you mean DSA they're not a third party. They're also a wishy washy excuse for what passes for

socialism, but if you're looking for a club of left-leaning Democrats with pretensions of being Euro Social Democrats (ignoring the fact that the Euro Social Democrats are in many cases the ones implementing neoliberal austerity policies in Europe--ruling parties are the same everywhere) it's the group for you.

If you're looking for an electoral alternative from the left to the Democrats the Greens are probably your best bet. Though the third party scene in the US is pretty fucked.

[loyalkydem]

27. I can deal with the green party before the tea party

[socialist_n_TN]

34. There are several Marxist parties out there..........

They are actually the only ones to be guaranteed to be against neo-liberal supporters and also the fascists. The rest of them are already sucked into the neo-liberal and austerity agenda.

Also SOME of them (not all, but some) actually endorsed Obama in the last election as the "lesser of two evils", not because they agreed with him and his neo-liberal agenda.

[greatauntoftriplets]

36. Bye!

[carterbob1]

40. Which means...

...what exactly?

[GreenPartyVoter]

38. I believe the Green Party still allows for dual party membership, so you may be able to be both

Green and Socialist. (But not a Democrat, as I don't think they are open to the dual-party idea.)

[mmonk]

71. In NC, you can belong to the Democratic Party and the Green Party

because the Green Party doesn't have ballot access.

[burrowowl]

41. Bernie Sanders is a Socialist!

and more Democratic than many of the Democrats!

[raouldukelives]

77. Shhh. Bernie is welcome here. For now. nt

[DevonRex]

42. gonna suggest the PAINFULLY obvious here

and recommend you go to a Socialist or Green site and ask questions there. Introduce yourself. Meet some nice, like-minded people. After all, you only have few posts here, right?

[quinnox]

51. The Green party is one I know is very progressive

I don't know anything about that other one mentioned.

If I joined a third party, it would be the Greens.

[NashvilleLefty]

54. I checked out the Party Platform of the Green Party a while back,

even though I consider them nothing more than a "spoiler" party.

I liked many of their platforms, many of them I liked but did not consider them viable or practical. Many of their platforms I considered too far "out there".

I suggest you read all of their platforms before you make a decision.

Any party with "Socialist" in the name is pretty much a non-starter in national politics.

OTOH, I agree with almost all of the Dem party platform. I also like how the Dem Party is a "big tent" and allows Leftists, Far-Leftists, Moderates, and even Conservatives. I think we need all.

BTW, I am a registered Independent. But I always vote Dem (except in the last Senatorial Election in which we had a homophobe running against Corker who even the TN Dem Party refused to endorse).

Please feel free to have an open discussion, but remember on Election Day to consider who has a chance of winning and who does not. Do not vote for a Spoiler.

[limpyhobbler]

57. DSA is not a political party.

Some current and former members of Congress are members of DSA and are also Democrats. I like them a lot. DSA envisions alternatives to capitalism and suggests working within politics to help create meaningful reforms toward that end. They also recognize the value of protest and non-violent civil disobedience. DSA members are/were among the earliest and strongest supporters of Occupy Wall St. stuff.

From what I've seen, DSA membership heavily overlaps Green Party and the progressive left edge of the Democrats.

[MH1]

58. A serious reply in good faith

Look for

1) which one supports, and WORKS FOR, instant runoff voting. That is the only way a third party can be other than spoiler in almost all cases.

2) which one focuses on electing people at the local level. The problem with the Green Party, imho, besides my point #1, is that they seem to get energized by running at the Presidential level by trying to take out the Democrat. They burned a lot of us with the "not a dime's worth of difference" bullshit in 2000.

Oh and if you happen to agree with the Green Party that there's "not a dime's worth of difference" between the Democratic Party and the Republican Party, a) you're tragically wrong, and b) this discussion board is the wrong place for you.

If you think Democrats are better than Republicans but just want to hang out with people who are more exactly in line with your politics, you should be fine as long as you remember that advocating for 3rd parties is frowned upon at DU (except under certain rare conditions, e.g. Bernie Sanders).

[SidDithers]

59. Third Party Troll...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=profile&uid=266425&sub=trans

Thank you, Skinner.

Sid

[Scurrilous]

62. He was doing so well!

I was this close to abandoning the Democratic Party.

[Resonance_Chamber]

73. Not a US Citizen, Not a Member of the Democratic Party and Not a Legal US Voter expressing concern

about a troll?

Too funny!

[SidDithers]

75. ...

Sid

[Resonance_Chamber]

74. Henry A. Wallace would not be welcome on DU

pretty sad.

[stevenleser]

76. Thou hast disrupted, poorly. Buh-bye nt