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bigtree

(94,551 posts)
Wed Oct 1, 2025, 09:34 PM Oct 2025

I know a lot of Americans are reflexively obsequious toward the military

...I come at it with deep suspicion and often contempt toward their leaders and the way they are led, but great respect and care for the people who serve under them.

As a citizen, I feel great personal responsibility for their mission and preparation that I think every American should feel some care for, and are, nonetheless, obligated to because of our shared commitment to our nation's and it's inhabitants' general defense.

When I hear Trump and Hegseth, and the rest of the goons in the White House talk about their diversity like it's some disease, I have to ask myself - do they intend for the military forces to only serve the people they elevate and prioritize in their removal of incentives, protections, and accommodations of the needs of women in the military with "sex-neutral, age-normed" physical requirements that "follow the male standard."

Is this to be a military which outright insists without any credibility that the way women serve is inferior to men or detrimental to some mission; or that women in the military should be made to subjugate whatever this new command regards of their womanhood as weak, ineffective, or 'warrior ethos" to a "male standard" that comes with it's own inherent fault and flaw, and can't possibly respond effectively to a diverse world with just one testosterone-based notion of excellence or competence that only exists in the imaginations of culture warriors who very likely couldn't perform many of the jobs women are doing right now with excellence?

"I am sick and tired of Pete Hegseth lying about women in the military and standards," former US Marine fighter pilot Amy McGarth said.

"There has always been one standard for those jobs," Elisa Cardnell, who served in the US Navy for eleven years said. "There was never a man's standard or a woman's standard for flying a jet."

Combat standards are set differently depending on the unit a person is serving in, whether they are in special operations, infantry, armour or pararescue, she said. But all personnel in those roles have to pass the same test.

"These standards have always been gender neutral, and they have always been set at a high standard," she said. "Of course, not all women are going to make those, but not all men do either."


There's no actual evidence that the U.S.military is “less capable and less lethal,” as Hegseth claimed in his speech before the generals.

None of the military's readiness, capability, or effectiveness is hindered in any way by his targets of “identity months ir DEI offices; no harm whatsoever.

Hegseth's ranting about "no more division, distraction or gender delusions" are projections of his own antipathies, and perhaps the shared bias of some of the troops he holds up as superior to the others he's denigrating to the point of threatening their service.

"No more debris," he declared about the women he reviles, making clear what he thinks of our diverse society that supports his civilian agency and pays for all of the slick weaponry that he and his boss have decided should be bandied about and wielded against Americans like a personal enhanced phallus.

The men and women armed to the hilt who Trump is arraying against his political rivals at the same time he's making domestic terrorism declarations for dubious labels he's invented to describe Democrats are to be a defense of ALL Americans.

Their duty isn't the creation or possession of the party in power; it's Americans' collective defense force which is proscribed in the Constitution, and less in the zealous and narrow intention and concern of a pair of insecure white males hiding their small feelings behind the force of our collective military.

We didn't provide them weapons so that they could turn them against us.

We didn't provide their institutions for them to make those public assets exclusive clubs for the party in power, or the white male-standard that Hegseth is so obviously projecting out of his own insecurity with an increasingly diverse world that is even more apparent in the ranks of our armed forces than in most other institutions and enterprises in America.

Trump and Hegseth have come into a world so foreign and hostile to their own personal shortcomings that their only instinct and action is to try and bring women DOWN to their low, one-dimensional level and pretend that's the only standard of excellence or competence; despite failure and fecklessness having no particular gender attached; witnessed by their own impotence and ineptitude at their level of incompetency.

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Ocelot II

(131,015 posts)
1. "Lions led by donkeys."
Wed Oct 1, 2025, 09:45 PM
Oct 2025
... A phrase used to imply that a capable group of individuals are incompetently led. Coined in classical antiquity, the phrase was commonly used after World War I to contrast senior commanders who had led armies, most prominently those of the British Armed Forces, with the men they commanded. The historiography of the United Kingdom during the 20th century frequently described the infantry of the British Army as brave soldiers (lions) being sent to their deaths by incompetent and indifferent commanders (donkeys). .. Plutarch attributed to Chabrias the saying that "an army of deer commanded by a lion is more to be feared than an army of lions commanded by a deer." An ancient Arabian proverb says "An army of sheep led by a lion would defeat an army of lions led by a sheep." During the Crimean War, a letter was reportedly sent home by a British soldier quoting a Russian officer who had said that British soldiers were "lions commanded by donkeys."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lions_led_by_donkeys

I think we'll be hearing that expression often, again.

Bernardo de La Paz

(60,320 posts)
3. You imply that the current leadership of the US military is either incompetent or mostly Democrats
Wed Oct 1, 2025, 10:13 PM
Oct 2025

I prefer that latter interpretation. However, though I think that there are many Democrats I think the majority is not Democratic.

Ocelot II

(131,015 posts)
5. I am specifically referring to the current Secretary of "War" and the Commander in Chief,
Wed Oct 1, 2025, 10:18 PM
Oct 2025

both of whom are asses.

Bernardo de La Paz

(60,320 posts)
6. Thanks for clarifying your intent. Over the decades the phrase has always referred to Generals & never politicians. . nt
Wed Oct 1, 2025, 10:22 PM
Oct 2025

Bernardo de La Paz

(60,320 posts)
9. It has a deep historical context, esp. WW One, that has nothing to do with politicians until Brexit
Wed Oct 1, 2025, 10:30 PM
Oct 2025
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lions_led_by_donkeys

During the Crimean War, a letter was reportedly sent home by a British soldier quoting a Russian officer who had said that British soldiers were "lions commanded by donkeys".[7] This was immediately after the Siege of Sevastopol (1854–55) and the failure to storm the fortress which, if true, would take the saying back to 1854–55. The phrase is quoted in Anna Stoddart's 1906 book The Life of Isabella Bird in the scene where Isabella, en route for the United States in 1854, passes a troopship taking the Scots Greys out to Balaclava. These and other Crimean War references were included in British Channel 4 television's The Crimean War series (1997) and the accompanying book (Michael Hargreave Mawson, expert reader).[better source needed]

Karl Marx and Friedrich Engels used the phrase on 27 September 1855, in an article published in Neue Oder-Zeitung, No. 457 (1 October 1855), on the British military's strategic mistakes and failings during the fall of Sevastopol, and particularly General James Simpson's military leadership of the assault on the Great Redan.

The joke making the rounds of the Russian army, that "L'armée anglaise est une armée de lions, commandée par des ânes" ["The English army is an army of lions led by asses"] has been thoroughly vindicated by the assault on Redan.[8]


The Times reportedly used the phrase as "lions led by donkeys" with reference to French soldiers during the Franco-Prussian War:

Unceasingly they [the French forces] had had drummed into them the utterances of The Times: "You are lions led by jackasses." Alas! The very lions had lost their manes. (On leur avait répété tout le long de la campagne le mot du Times: – "Vous êtes des lions conduits par des ânes! – Hélas! les lions mêmes avaient perdus leurs crinières" ) Francisque Sarcey.[9][incomplete short citation]

There were numerous examples of its use during the First World War, referring to the British and the Germans.[1] In Rising Sun and Tumbling Bear: Russia's War with Japan (2003), Richard Connaughton attributed a later quotation to Colonel J. M. Grierson (later Sir James Grierson) in 1901, when reporting on the Russian contingent to the Boxer Rebellion, describing them as 'lions led by asses'.[10] In his 1933 autobiography, member of parliament and retired naval officer Joseph Kenworthy (later Lord Strabolgi) lamented that the Royal Navy's reputation had suffered in the First World War, and that "It was a case of lions being led by asses."[11]

Ocelot II

(131,015 posts)
10. I'm well aware of the historical context, but I'm applying the concept to the instant situation
Wed Oct 1, 2025, 10:38 PM
Oct 2025

in which the generals are obviously the lions and the SOW and Trump are obviously the donkeys.

Bayard

(30,056 posts)
11. An insult to donkeys!
Wed Oct 1, 2025, 11:05 PM
Oct 2025

Who are actually pretty darn smart. Maybe more like, lions being led by a couple of worms. Worms hang out underground and eat dirt.


I like these quotes though.

I couldn't stand to hear more than little pieces from those two clowns, but it looked and sounded like they were both on drugs. The military mostly looked stunned at what they were hearing.

jls4561

(3,240 posts)
2. Both Dump and Kegsbreath seem like guys who compare the size of their member to everyone else at the urinals.
Wed Oct 1, 2025, 09:49 PM
Oct 2025

Pity they have never figured out that it’s not the size of the tool, it’s the skill with which one wields it.

Although neither of those guys have impressed me at being skillful at wielding anything.

Marie Marie

(11,427 posts)
12. No see you just don't understand Petey. He has clear vision on a woman's role in the military and in life.
Wed Oct 1, 2025, 11:36 PM
Oct 2025

Bodies to use for abuse and sexual assault. But first tape their damn mouths shut so they don't go squealing on the poor men who are the real victims.

bigtree

(94,551 posts)
13. yep, he's pining for the 90's
Thu Oct 2, 2025, 09:04 AM
Oct 2025

...story by Karen Tumulty

“What were the military standards in 1990? And if they have changed, tell me why. Was it a necessary change based on the evolving landscape of combat, or was the change due to a softening, weakening, or gender based pursuit of other priorities?” Hegseth said (at his presentation Tuesday at Marine Corps Base Quantico)

“1990 seems to be as good a place to start as any.”

“Pete Hegseth was about 10 years old in 1990,” said Rep. Mikie Sherrill, a former Navy helicopter pilot who is the Democratic nominee for New Jersey governor. “I was entering the Naval Academy. So he has no idea what was going on. I had a first-hand look at it.”

In an interview, Sherrill recalled a 1990 story on the front page of The Washington Post about a female midshipman being chained to a urinal and photographed by her classmates. A 1979 article — still being widely circulated more than a decade later — by James Webb, a future Navy secretary and Virginia Democratic senator, was headlined “Women Can’t Fight.” Among his arguments was that women shouldn’t be exposed to witnessing their “vicious and aggressive and debased” comrades desecrating corpses.

And then there was the time, Sherrill said, when the chief of naval operations spoke to the brigade of midshipmen and was asked whether women would ever serve aboard submarines. “Not in my lifetime,” he said, bringing a standing ovation.

The Tailhook scandal, she said, marked a turning point because it “precipitated some of the changes that led to a more lethal, better fighting force that we see today.”

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/hegseth-wants-to-return-the-military-to-1990-a-dark-time-in-its-history/ar-AA1NCf1p



...Tailhook scandal:

___Lt. Paula Coughlin, a 30-year-old helicopter pilot and admiral’s aide, was one of at least 26 women, more than half Navy officers, who were assaulted at the now-notorious Tailhook convention of Navy and Marine aviators last September. Her complaint about the attack triggered a far-reaching Navy investigation of the episode, which so far has implicated at least 70 officers and caused a major scandal in the service.

During a sometimes emotional two-hour interview at a relative's house in Washington, Coughlin described not only the terror of the assault, but also her frustration with its aftermath: her boss's lackadaisical response to her report of the attack, the refusal of some aviators to cooperate with the investigation, the whispering campaign by male officers who suggested "that someone was making a big stink about nothing."

The attack, Coughlin said, was bad enough. But her knowledge that the assaults had been carried out by Navy and Marine Corps officers -- men she had come to regard as comrades in arms -- made the episode that much more painful.

"I've been in the Navy almost eight years and I've worked my ass off to be one of the guys, to be the best naval officer I can and prove that women can do whatever the job calls for," she said. "And what I got, I was treated like trash. I wasn't one of them."

https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/politics/1992/06/24/a-gantlet-of-terror-frustration/fa9d95f4-e610-4a1c-a739-cec2b558716f/

fast forward to the investigation...

140 Officers Faulted in Tailhook Sex Scandal : Inquiry: Seven-month review of the infamous 1991 convention also blames Navy brass for a leadership vacuum that allowed a 'free fire zone' of debauchery and assaults. - Los Angeles Times
https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1993-04-24-mn-26674-story.html


Pentagon Blasts Navy's Tailhook Investigation - Los Angeles Times

WASHINGTON — The Navy conducted a poorly coordinated, halfhearted investigation into sexual assault allegations stemming from the 1991 Tailhook convention, and did so under the direction of an admiral who apparently doubted that women belonged in the military, Pentagon investigators said Thursday in their first major report on the scandal.

As naval investigators turned up evidence of infractions other than sexual assault, the officials managing the effort failed to widen their inquiry, the Defense Department’s inspector general, Derek Vander Schaaf, concluded. And despite continued recommendations from colleagues, the admiral in charge of the Naval Investigative Service refused to allow interviews of senior officers, even after it became clear that some had witnessed improper acts and failed to intervene.

As expected, O’Keefe accepted the resignations of two admirals cited in the report, Rear Adm. Duvall M. Williams Jr., commander of the Naval Investigative Service, and Rear Adm. John E. Gordon, the Navy’s judge advocate general, its chief legal officer. A third admiral, Rear Adm. George W. Davis VI, the Navy’s inspector general, came in for less stringent criticism and has been reassigned.

Speaking to a junior naval investigator, Williams at one point observed that a female officer who had come forward with complaints had used profane language in describing her alleged assault. “Any women who would use the f-word on a regular basis would welcome this type of activity,” the female investigator quoted Williams as saying.

Williams’ comments, Vander Schaaf concluded, “demonstrated an attitude that should have caused an examination of his suitability to conduct the investigation.” Vander Schaaf indicated that Davis was willing to excuse officers’ tolerance for sexual misconduct by arguing that Navy culture had been indulgent toward such behavior in the past.

https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1992-09-25-mn-1182-story.html

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