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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsSo the firefighter shooter was using a Bushmaster .223
Just now on CNN.
Police: "Gunman had an Arsenal"
I'm calling it now, this guy bought every weapon via private transactions.
It's the gun show loophole.
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nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)Gun shows are great if you cannot pass a background check
Walk away
(9,494 posts)
cantbeserious
(13,039 posts)eom
RomneyLies
(3,333 posts)because technically he wasn't supposed to buy any guns even though he could do so with no problems at a public venue.
politicat
(9,810 posts)Gun shows have to be regulated.
Yavapai
(825 posts)He served 17 years in prison for the 1980 hammer slaying of his grandmother. He was a parolee! He was a killer! It was against the law for him to possess any firearms!
How many more fucking laws do you need to pass before it occurs to you that they also need to be enforced?
Time after time, these incidents occur and you gloss over the fact that they broke existing laws. You then proceed to
scream that we need more fucking laws that will not be enforced.
How was it Einstein described insanity? something about doing the same thing over and over again, and then expecting a different outcome???
RomneyLies
(3,333 posts)then the only way for the parolee to obtain weapons is for somebody else to collude with them to illegally obtain them, making them as guilty of the crimes committed as accessories, or they must steal them, which is far more difficult than walking into a gun show, laying down your cash, and being handed the firearm.
Parole happens. That's how our system works.
farminator3000
(2,117 posts)scream that we need more fucking laws that will not be enforced.
who is 'you'? please explain how 'they' broke existing laws, by identifying these laws. or if you are talking about NOT OWNING A GUN and GOING ON A PSYCHOTIC RAMPAGE as the laws he broke, who the f is glossing over that. wtf is glossing, anyway?
How many more fucking laws do you need to pass before it occurs to you that they also need to be enforced?
do you have any friends who are cops? ask them that question. better yet, ask any cop on the street
excuse me, officer? and then say that really loudly.
How was it Einstein described insanity? something about doing the same thing over and over again, and then expecting a different outcome???
that is how he described YOU, last time i checked
Response to farminator3000 (Reply #45)
zzyzxter This message was self-deleted by its author.
RomneyLies
(3,333 posts)Frankly, I don't believe a word of what you claim.
uppityperson
(116,017 posts)Yavapai
(825 posts)Not a Star member: +0
7 posts hidden in 90 days: -35
TOTAL: 12
Hmmmm....
RomneyLies
(3,333 posts)who deleted his post as soon as he was called on it?
I see you love the gungeon.
Have you hugged your guns today?
uppityperson
(116,017 posts)Did you know we can easily find and read the hidden posts?
Hmmmm........
RomneyLies
(3,333 posts)and can be far too insulting when I confront it. It comes from several years of dealing with birthers on various boards.
SemperEadem
(8,053 posts)to pay to staff parole officers to keep up with parolees... or to cut off other state/municipality services such as trash collection, snow removal, street repair in order to keep up with them. The thugs are adamant that taxes not be raised in any way shape or form.
Thing is, that which you complain about costs money that no one wants their taxes raised to pay for it. THAT is the hurdle once needs to clear.
farminator3000
(2,117 posts)there are already parole officers doing their jobs
the problem is a crazy man had a gun
who are these 'thugs'? are they real or did you make them up in your head?
SemperEadem
(8,053 posts)really... does it have to be spelled out for you?
and I make perfect sense. YOU don't have to read what I write if you don't like it.
wordpix
(18,652 posts)gun shows, internet sales or had a private gun dealer sell to him off the record. Take your pick.
You don't need a background check for #1 and 3 and #2 I'm not sure of but just use a fake name and that is probably good enough for internet dealers.
RomneyLies
(3,333 posts)politicat
(9,810 posts)We have some of laws. It's enforcement we're failing at.
But it costs -- parole officers need a much smaller case load for high-contact observation, which means more parole officers, which means more money. We're not paying for that. We have two options for enforcement -- the expensive, high contact version, or a cheaper, technocratic one that means limiting the hardware for everyone.
The expensive version requires higher taxes that people aren't willing to pay now.
And I am not screaming, nor swearing. That's you.
booley
(3,855 posts)That he may have been able to buy these guns because there is this huge loop hole in it that makes the law almost next to useless.
If he could buy at a gun show and buy ammo on the internet, then clearly the problem is the current law is insufficient. We need to change the law.
It's suspect to me how the gun lobby says we need to enforce the laws we have .. while at the same time weakening and / or repealing the laws we have.
yes insanity can be doing the same thing over and over.. but I don't think it's the people who want tighter gun regulation that have that problem
Dirty Socialist
(3,252 posts)Last edited Tue Dec 25, 2012, 02:46 PM - Edit history (1)
Two firefighters were recently killed in Rochester, so knock it off!
And given the frequency of gun related deaths, it will never be the time for a debate. Nya Nya!
morningfog
(18,115 posts)And then do it again and again and again. At some point in the distance future when the definition of assault weapon has been canonized and understood by all you ignorant gunless, we will then proceed to tell you why no gun reform legislation will ever pass or ever work.
End of debate. Repeat as necessary.
Lizzie Poppet
(10,164 posts)It would be a relatively simple matter to provide access to the NICS database online. For those w/o internet access, they could go through an FFL dealer for a nominal charge.
This wouldn't do much to prevent access by common criminals, but is sure would have made it more difficult for ex-con lunatics like that guy.
RomneyLies
(3,333 posts)It's the only choice.
All transactions that do not should be federal felonies with mandatory minimum sentences.
Lizzie Poppet
(10,164 posts)What's the difference, as long as the background check is conducted?
RomneyLies
(3,333 posts)An FFL dealer is not going to do anything to put their license in jeopardy. There's no skin in the game for somebody who has no license on the line.
Lizzie Poppet
(10,164 posts)That is, if the specific weapon was a part of the background check query (which would also include the SSN of the person who wanted to buy the gun), if that weapon were later found to be in the possession of a denied person, the weapon's immediately previous registered owner would be criminally liable.
Logical
(22,457 posts)Lizzie Poppet
(10,164 posts)...they're not going to make the sale through a dealer, either.
RomneyLies
(3,333 posts)they would face a five year mandatory minimum prison sentence for doing so.
That's incentive for "law abiding gun owners" to abide by the law.
Lizzie Poppet
(10,164 posts)If we're going to require private citizens to conduct background checks (or to employ an FFL holder), then failure to do so needs to be a felony crime. Again, habitual career criminals will still ignore the provision, but most others would consider it a genuine deterrent, I'd suspect.
Logical
(22,457 posts)Lizzie Poppet
(10,164 posts)...and for having the weapon turn up in unauthorized hands.
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)But summary, Lanza did not use a licensed gun (to him).
This guy obviously obtained it at a gun show.
Ok, the guy in Aurora bought his legally, as in a gun store, that no longer carries them.
Chorophyll
(5,179 posts)These guys are in a permanent war against everyone and everything, and they walk among us, enabled by the NRA and the wimp-ass politicians who take its blood money.
aikoaiko
(34,214 posts)For a long time. I forget who but someone suggested a number on the back of state IDs to use when a private seller calls.
RomneyLies
(3,333 posts)Nope, all transactions need to go through FFL dealers. Somebody's license to sell firearms must be on the line in EVERY transaction.
hack89
(39,181 posts)intrastate private sales are a state issue.
RomneyLies
(3,333 posts)Those private transactions in Virginia can end up in Maryland or DC.
Damned straight the Feds can regulate commerce like that. Long standing SCOTUS precedent on the issue. The Marshall court dramatically expanded the capacity of the Federal Government to regulate intrastate trade.
hack89
(39,181 posts)they passed legislation tightly regulating every other aspect of gun sales and manufacturing. I don't think it was an oversight - they knew they couldn't do it. Notice how, among the multitude of gun control laws introduced over the past 20 years, not a single one of them addresses private intrastate sales?
You are wrong.
RomneyLies
(3,333 posts)N
R
A
hack89
(39,181 posts)Lots of laws are introduced knowing they have no chance of passing but are introduced to make a point. Look how many times the AWB has been introduced.
So tell me again, why has no one introduce legislation to regulate intrastate private sales?
Legislation has been introduced multiple times to close the gun show loophole. It never even comes up in committee.
The NRA insures it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_Show_Loophole_Closing_Act_of_2009
Stop sticking up for the NRA. It's unbecoming of you.
hack89
(39,181 posts)they can stretch the commerce clause far enough to cover gun shows. But no further. It proves my point as to the limit of Federal power.
pipoman
(16,038 posts)because the committees have always determined that they wouldn't pass constitutional challenge because of limitations on the federal government imposed by the "commerce clause". The only people/sales effected are between private individuals who have no collective voice.
Here is a step in the right direction...
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022063309
former-republican
(2,163 posts)The states can though.
A lot of gun control will have to be a state issue.
That's why if Obama is serious he needs to have a conference with every governor in the country.
RomneyLies
(3,333 posts)The only reason it hasn't happened is the NRA will not allow it to happen.
former-republican
(2,163 posts)
off subject just a little.........
Remember the discussion we had on Executive orders a while back and how they work?
Just because you really, really, really want something to be legal , doesn't make it so.
RomneyLies
(3,333 posts)The calls to close the gun show loophole has resulted in legislation being introduced
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_Show_Loophole_Closing_Act_of_2009
The NRA insures it dies an ignominious death.
Just because you hug your guns doesn't mean we cannot regulate private transactions of guns on a federal level.
former-republican
(2,163 posts)There's a reason why it never is considered.
RomneyLies
(3,333 posts)farminator3000
(2,117 posts)they can't introduce a bill that says "you have to annoy people on the internet everyday for no reason"
and there are $300 million reasons, which are the dollars in the nra budget
kwassa
(23,340 posts)reason."
It just won't pass.
farminator3000
(2,117 posts)have you ever heard of civil rights? and how owning a gun ISN'T one of them?
hack89
(39,181 posts)RomneyLies
(3,333 posts)hack89
(39,181 posts)stop using the modern definition.
From: Brian T. Halonen <halonen@csd.uwm.edu>
The following are taken from the Oxford English Dictionary, and bracket in time the writing of the 2nd amendment:
1709: "If a liberal Education has formed in us well-regulated Appetites and worthy Inclinations."
1714: "The practice of all well-regulated courts of justice in the world."
1812: "The equation of time ... is the adjustment of the difference of time as shown by a well-regulated clock and a true sun dial."
1848: "A remissness for which I am sure every well-regulated person will blame the Mayor."
1862: "It appeared to her well-regulated mind, like a clandestine proceeding."
1894: "The newspaper, a never wanting adjunct to every well-regulated American embryo city."
The phrase "well-regulated" was in common use long before 1789, and remained so for a century thereafter. It referred to the property of something being in proper working order. Something that was well-regulated was calibrated correctly, functioning as expected. Establishing government oversight of the people's arms was not only not the intent in using the phrase in the 2nd amendment, it was precisely to render the government powerless to do so that the founders wrote it.
RomneyLies
(3,333 posts)you don't get to have it both ways, especially once one of your SCOTUS gun heroes are off the court.
farminator3000
(2,117 posts)
hack89
(39,181 posts)stop denying reality.
RomneyLies
(3,333 posts)hack89
(39,181 posts)From: Brian T. Halonen <halonen@csd.uwm.edu>
The following are taken from the Oxford English Dictionary, and bracket in time the writing of the 2nd amendment:
1709: "If a liberal Education has formed in us well-regulated Appetites and worthy Inclinations."
1714: "The practice of all well-regulated courts of justice in the world."
1812: "The equation of time ... is the adjustment of the difference of time as shown by a well-regulated clock and a true sun dial."
1848: "A remissness for which I am sure every well-regulated person will blame the Mayor."
1862: "It appeared to her well-regulated mind, like a clandestine proceeding."
1894: "The newspaper, a never wanting adjunct to every well-regulated American embryo city."
The phrase "well-regulated" was in common use long before 1789, and remained so for a century thereafter. It referred to the property of something being in proper working order. Something that was well-regulated was calibrated correctly, functioning as expected. Establishing government oversight of the people's arms was not only not the intent in using the phrase in the 2nd amendment, it was precisely to render the government powerless to do so that the founders wrote it.
RomneyLies
(3,333 posts)Get one, JUST ONE, of your SCOTUS heroes gone, and it means WELL REGULATED/
Of course, losing Scalia, Thomas, Kennedy, Alito, or Roberts from the court is YOUR biggest fear.
hack89
(39,181 posts)just like all those anti-abortion folks that thought that a Scalia court meant Roe V Wade would be overturned overnight.
No proposed gun control laws will take away my weapons. Go read Feinstein's AWB. With friends like her and the president, I don't worry about the makeup of the SC.
RomneyLies
(3,333 posts)We just want them registered and tracked at a national level.
Thinking we want to take away your weapons is possibly the height of paranoid behavior, which makes me think you may possibly be in a category who should have no access to weapons.
hack89
(39,181 posts)why all the post about why no one needs a semi-automatic rifle?
Registration and tracking would not have prevented Sandy Hook, now would they? They were registered. And there was no need to track them - they were laying next to the body of the shooter. Show me a single mass killing where registration would have made a difference.
RomneyLies
(3,333 posts)If you have mentally ill peolpe in your household, you've got no business owning guns.
Period.
But then again, the more the gun huggers try to fight it the more I'm convinced banning and confiscating may be the only answers. The gun huggers simply will not be reasonable.
hack89
(39,181 posts)that's your idea of reasonable?
If you are on anti-psychotic medications, you've got no business being anywhere near guns.
Period.
If somebody in your household is on anti-psychotic medications, time to give up your guns.
Period.
On edit: This would ahve stopped VA Tech, Auroa, AND Sandy Hook,
Matt_R
(456 posts)Logical
(22,457 posts)hack89
(39,181 posts)have you forgotten who actually passes laws?
Logical
(22,457 posts)hack89
(39,181 posts)the NRA has not oppose states regulating private sales. There are states that have passed such laws without opposition. But the Feds will never force the states to do it.
Logical
(22,457 posts)hack89
(39,181 posts)aikoaiko
(34,214 posts)If someone isn't going to comply with a law that requires a private seller to call NICS, then they'll not comply with a law requiring private sellers go through an FFL.
atreides1
(16,799 posts)But until the police have confirmed that he purchased the weapon from a private seller...I'm going to wait.
Jumping to conclusions has never done any good for anyone.
farminator3000
(2,117 posts)we are trying to talk about the fact that it was the SAME GUN AS CT here- so go somewhere else if you can't manage
I'm calling it now, this guy bought every weapon via private transactions.-romneylies
i see that, and raise you that it was his sister who he hated, but lived with, AND burned up in the house that HELPED him!-me
http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5haV0q9KW1gKvnD3W4sk-yxAVf_ew?docId=545f47cd49d7490495c87869825d9ee9
Man who killed 2 firemen left note on killing plan
By By GEORGE WALSH, Associated Press – 24 minutes ago
WEBSTER, N.Y. (AP) — The ex-con who lured firefighters to their deaths in a blaze of gunfire left a typewritten note saying he wanted to burn down the neighborhood and "do what I like doing best, killing people," police said Tuesday.
Police Chief Gerald Pickering said Tuesday that 62-year-old William Spengler, who served 17 years in prison for the 1980 hammer slaying of his grandmother, armed himself with a revolver, a shotgun and a semiautomatic rifle before he set his house afire to lure first responders into a death trap before dawn on Christmas Eve.
Two firefighters were shot dead and two others are hospitalized. Spengler killed himself as seven houses burned around him Monday on a narrow spit of land along Lake Ontario.
One of the weapons recovered was a .233-caliber semiautomatic Bushmaster rifle with flash suppression, the same make and caliber gun used in the elementary school massacre in Newtown, Conn., Pickering said.
The chief said police believe the firefighters were hit with shots from the rifle given the distance but the investigation was incomplete.
The two- to three-page typewritten note left by Spengler didn't give a motive for the shootings, Pickering said. He declined to divulge the note's full content or say where it was found, but read one line from it: "I still have to get ready to see how much of the neighborhood I can burn down, and do what I like doing best, killing people."
Pickering said authorities were still looking for Spengler's 67-year-old sister, Cheryl Spengler, who lived in the house with him. Their mother, Arline, also lived there until she died in October.
SidDithers
(44,333 posts)Sid
slackmaster
(60,567 posts)Only that would have solved the problem.
RomneyLies
(3,333 posts)so I guess he would have gotten out sooner or later.
slackmaster
(60,567 posts)He must have had one heck of a good lawyer.
RomneyLies
(3,333 posts)farminator3000
(2,117 posts)inbreeding perhaps?
farminator3000
(2,117 posts)Yeah, he didn't really mean to kill his grandma when he beat her repeatedly with a hammer.
Atman
(31,464 posts)"Honest, your honor. I missed twelve times! I don't know why she didn't get out of the way!"
hammer? i thought it was a bagel!
Warren Stupidity
(48,181 posts)Or just for some 20-20 hindsight subset of all criminals?
slackmaster
(60,567 posts)That sort of thing is a good predictor of future criminal activity.
farminator3000
(2,117 posts)what that means, i don't get it
99Forever
(14,524 posts)Extremely violent offenders and yes even mother and grandmother murderers are released virtually each and every day. Sorry, there isn't an unlimited amount of prison space now, nor will there ever be. I rather that these types have an EXTREMELY difficult time arming themselves, than having to get into firefights to stop their weekly shooting sprees. It about priorities and it's pretty clear what yours are.
farminator3000
(2,117 posts)so..
show us a list of what you can get a mandatory life sentence for, if you are the expert
and
explain how you arrived at the conclusion that it is the one and only way.
also
here is another way so solve 'the problem'
a violent person (i don't care if be beat her with a hammer or a fucking zucchini and gave her bruises. but i DO care if he ever so much as punched his girlfriend, if he ever had one)
SHOULD NEVER BE ABLE TO OWN A GUN EVER. THE PUBLIC SHOULD KNOW THE PERSON IS DANGEROUS AND STAY AWAY FROM HIM.
here's a few more questions-
why is it 99% men that do these things?
do you own a prison?
life sentences are a good thing?
how many thousands of killers get released from prison a year and don't do on killing sprees?
so are saying releasing people from jail turns people into lunatics, really. ever heard of a parole board?
have fun with the ???
slackmaster
(60,567 posts)...sentence.
Hammers don't count.
farminator3000
(2,117 posts)i see that, and raise you that it was his sister who he hated, but lived with, AND burned up in the house that HELPED him!
http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5haV0q9KW1gKvnD3W4sk-yxAVf_ew?docId=545f47cd49d7490495c87869825d9ee9
Man who killed 2 firemen left note on killing plan
By By GEORGE WALSH, Associated Press – 24 minutes ago
WEBSTER, N.Y. (AP) — The ex-con who lured firefighters to their deaths in a blaze of gunfire left a typewritten note saying he wanted to burn down the neighborhood and "do what I like doing best, killing people," police said Tuesday.
Police Chief Gerald Pickering said Tuesday that 62-year-old William Spengler, who served 17 years in prison for the 1980 hammer slaying of his grandmother, armed himself with a revolver, a shotgun and a semiautomatic rifle before he set his house afire to lure first responders into a death trap before dawn on Christmas Eve.
Two firefighters were shot dead and two others are hospitalized. Spengler killed himself as seven houses burned around him Monday on a narrow spit of land along Lake Ontario.
One of the weapons recovered was a .233-caliber semiautomatic Bushmaster rifle with flash suppression, the same make and caliber gun used in the elementary school massacre in Newtown, Conn., Pickering said.
The chief said police believe the firefighters were hit with shots from the rifle given the distance but the investigation was incomplete.
The two- to three-page typewritten note left by Spengler didn't give a motive for the shootings, Pickering said. He declined to divulge the note's full content or say where it was found, but read one line from it: "I still have to get ready to see how much of the neighborhood I can burn down, and do what I like doing best, killing people."
Pickering said authorities were still looking for Spengler's 67-year-old sister, Cheryl Spengler, who lived in the house with him. Their mother, Arline, also lived there until she died in October.
Atman
(31,464 posts)And somehow he was able to purchase guns. Amazing. But of course, with a hammer, he was only able to kill his grandmother. With his Bushmaster, he was able to hide out nearby and pick off multiple innocent victims from a distance. There IS a difference, I don't care what the gun nutters say. Sure, there will always be psychos. But why should we make it easy for them to obtain such weapons? Why?
slackmaster
(60,567 posts)But he probably chose a hammer because he didn't want to get in trouble.
Paladin
(32,354 posts)
Patiod
(11,816 posts)It was in the NY Daily News. I would link if I knew how to cut and paste on this pad
Lady Freedom Returns
(14,198 posts)They had no word of her last time I heard. I think that she may be victim #3.
LisaL
(47,420 posts)
MrMickeysMom
(20,453 posts)Sorry if I sound ignorant, but I am.
So, if I go to the next gun show, how do I vet this activity? Really... I would love someone to tell me.
RomneyLies
(3,333 posts)
melm00se
(5,159 posts)any licensed firearms dealer must perform a NICS background check on a firearm sale whether done in a retail storefront or a gun show.
if I (a private individual) want to sell you (another private individual) a gun, whether its done at/near a gun show or thru a newspaper ad or you come to my house, I am not required to perform a background check, in fact I am legally prevented from accessing the NICS system.
in my state(NC), however, if I am selling a handgun I am obligated to obtain either a state issued pistol purchase permit or CCW permit from the purchaser.
RomneyLies
(3,333 posts)and openly sell their wares.
MrMickeysMom
(20,453 posts)Do you have to lean over and say the magic word? I would expect exhibitors signing up would have to have to show that they have the legal process to sell in hand and a receipt of what they sold. The only way they might get around it would be to "say the right thing", which seems a bit risky, but then, there you are.
I should ask if anyone reading this is from PA, because it may be better regulated here.
RomneyLies
(3,333 posts)But not many states are as well regulated at PA, and even PA is not the best regulated.
OneTenthofOnePercent
(6,268 posts)Last edited Tue Dec 25, 2012, 04:56 PM - Edit history (1)
Basically, if you have an FFL license (licensed dealer) you must do a background everywhere you sell a gun. In their gunshop, at home, in the car on train, even at a gunshow.... anywhere they sell a gun, they have to call in the paperwork on the spot for the background check. An FFL dealer can legally sell new guns from manufacturers and distributors in addition to used guns and all guns a dealer holds is inventoried with the ATF. Guns sold on the internet must be shipped to another FFL dealer in the buyers state where that FFL does the background check. Simply put, if a gun is bought from a licensed dealer in any fashion then it absolutley gets a background check before a citizen gets it.
If you have no FFL license (private citizen) you are barred from accessing the NICS background check system. Private citizens have no requirement (or access) to performing a background check when selling their PERSONAL guns. It doesn't matter if the private-citizen sale happens at home, Dennys, a gun show, the mall parking lot or a public park. A private citizen cannot sell new guns directly from a manufacturer/distributor... the guns must be their own personal guns.
I'm not sure why anyone calls gun shows a "gunshow loophole". A gunshow does not have some magical set of laws surrounding it. The laws at a gunshow are the same there as everywhere else in the nation - no exceptions. There is no loophole unique to gun shows.
farminator3000
(2,117 posts)Unfortunately, only six states (CA, CO, IL, NY, OR, RI) require universal background checks on all firearm sales at gun shows. Three more states (CT, MD, PA) require background checks on all handgun sales made at gun shows. Seven other states (HI, IA, MA, MI, NJ, NC, NE) require purchasers to obtain a permit and undergo a background check before buying a handgun. Florida allows its counties to regulate gun shows by requiring background checks on all firearms purchases at these events. 33 states have taken no action whatsoever to close the Gun Show Loophole.
now, you can't argue with mine and i can't argue with yours(because i PROVED YOU WRONG)! go find it and tell me why its wrong and stop wasting our time
if anybody wants to find that just type 'end gun violence' into google, it'll be your 2nd link
OneTenthofOnePercent
(6,268 posts)I'm pretty sure the 1968 CGA and 1986 FOPA outline the federal minimum requirements for gun transfer. States themselves may enact stricter rules regarding intrastate transfer of firearms for non-FFL holders. In those states which require even the private sales to obtain an NICS background check (referenced in your post) it is the FFL Dealers that still end up performing the background check as a third party (because the private citizens still don't have background check access).
I support legislation requiring background checks on ALL firearms transfers, through commercial or private sale. I would also strongly consider support nation-wide uniformity for most all firearm regulations.
RomneyLies
(3,333 posts)Anybody who can pass through the hell that it takes to be licensed to own automatic weapons is the LEAST of our worries and a federal registry is needed more now than ever.
OneTenthofOnePercent
(6,268 posts)I think such a measure would be EASY to pass through congress now. The person selling the gun and the person receiving the gun should BOTH be checked. An failures should be reported to Authorities for investigation as to why a felon was either trying to sell or receive a gun (or why the system incorrectly flagged someone).
The people with guns we need to worry about first are the criminals. That would be easy legislation with little resistance and would not infringe on qualified gun owners rights at all. As it stands now, there is black market for guns, and a grey market. The grey market is all the guns that we have no idea about because private sales have no indication of legal or illegal. If you require ALL guns sold, gifted or inherited to pass though a FFL then as time marches on you eliminate the grey market - everything is either obtained legally or illegally.
Next hurdle, without registration, the system is obviously limited. But gunnies are scared of government or civil misuse of the list. So let the owners keep the "list". A good FFL check yields a "permit"... like your tax receipts. As long as you own the gun, you keep the NICS ticket. Your NICS ticket is the proof your gun was obtained legally. If you lose the ticket, you must visit the FFL who did the transfer (or ATF) to get a new check and ticket.
We should repeal the Hughes Amendment just for good measure too... hehe.
RomneyLies
(3,333 posts)I simply do not see the system working without a federal registry.
A central repository for every gun in the country and who owns it.
That, alone keeps things in line. That is the line in the sand that insures "law abiding gun owners" actually abide by the laws.
I could give a shit about gunnies being scared of it.
former9thward
(33,424 posts)You say this shooting was the result of the "gun show loophole". Your post says NY requires universal background checks on all firearm sales at gun shows. This shooting was in NY.
RomneyLies
(3,333 posts)Vermont is not that far away from this town, nor is New Hampshire and it has some of the most lax gun laws in the nation.
former9thward
(33,424 posts)I am not making any assumptions erroneous or otherwise. But you are making a boatload of them.
RomneyLies
(3,333 posts)Which is the biggest argument there is for a federal registry and tracking of ALL guns.
beevul
(12,194 posts)MrMickeysMom
(20,453 posts)I should look into this.
farminator3000
(2,117 posts)??
see, diff states have diff laws so...it depends. that part of the problem
which is why we need a FEDERAL GUN STANDARD THAT IS SANE
MrMickeysMom
(20,453 posts)Read your post on that already. I need to check in to the strength of PA's law, which, according to what you said upthread is not as bad as other laws, but there are NO standards nation-wide, then, right?
RomneyLies
(3,333 posts)Some suck hard.
The Straight Story
(48,121 posts)I buy a gun. A few years later a buddy wants it and I sell it to him.
How would anyone know? Would I be arrested? What would be the punishment? What happens when I die and leave my guns to someone else (I don't own any currently)?
What else do we want to track when people sell it to other people? Do we need to monitor garage and yard sales now? Should people have to have a full permit and list to the government all items they are selling?
And when, if ever, will people actually talk about the people doing these crimes and not their tools and blame them?
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)or was what you wrote about garage sales pointless? And who the fuck has NOT been talking about and blaming Lanza or this freak who killed his grandma with a hammer? You been watching the news at all?
The Straight Story
(48,121 posts)"If someone wants to sell a gun at a garage sale, it's their right to do so. It is what it is: personal property," said Tom Mangan, a special agent with the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)The Straight Story
(48,121 posts)How do you stop people from selling them at garage sales?
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)The Straight Story
(48,121 posts)How would this be enforced given all of the yard sales in the US each day?
Should people register their yard sales and all they have for sale?
If we assume we are all potential terrorists and all gun owners are killers then we should also guess that everyone having a yard sale may sell a gun there and perhaps a new variant of the TSA to drive around checking out yard sales and reporting on them would help?
RomneyLies
(3,333 posts)bettyellen
(47,209 posts)throw in a suggestion to arm everyone or split hairs of gun tech secs and you hit the NRA trifecta!
Are you proud of the way you play stupid?
The Straight Story
(48,121 posts)I have seen everything from confiscate all guns to mental health screening to banning, etc and so on.
What are you asking for?
theKed
(1,235 posts)If that gun gets used in a crime, the last registered owner is on the hook as aiding that crime.
RomneyLies
(3,333 posts)The liability ends so long as it was a legal transfer.
Matt_R
(456 posts)Serial number, manufacturer, firing pin microstamping, barrel rifiling.
RomneyLies
(3,333 posts)The serial number is stamped. Even if you file it away, it can still be detected and read.
farminator3000
(2,117 posts)we both used pointless at the same time!
RomneyLies
(3,333 posts)Once discovered, the penalty should be a mandatory minimum of five years in a federal pen.
For each count.
that gives you incentive to take your buddy to an FFL and pay a fee to transfer.
Since death involves probate, it is easy to get an FFL involved in the transfer.
farminator3000
(2,117 posts)they are kind of pointless, i think
Warren Stupidity
(48,181 posts)RomneyLies
(3,333 posts)His first purchase is a part of a federal registry so his name automatically comes up when they check on the gun.
Now he's facing a federal felony with a five year mandatory minimum, PLUS the state can charge his as an accessory in the liquor store robbery.
catbyte
(39,117 posts)
Jenoch
(7,720 posts)this guy ever saw the light of day after beating his grandmother to death with a hammer.
RomneyLies
(3,333 posts)
Travis_0004
(5,417 posts)He should have been in jail for the rest of his life. If he was in jail, the odds of him killing two firefighters would have been 0%.
Even if he was let out, and there was an AWB, I'm sure he still would have managed to get a gun and shot some people.
uponit7771
(93,532 posts)eilen
(4,955 posts)that is made by many different manufacturers. Hubs says that he could have just ordered the parts on line and built it himself, they are common and easy to obtain.
Cronkite
(158 posts)One of the gun laws I would like to see is that all transfers of firearms ownership be conducted through a licensed dealer. Full background check. I would also like to see mental health data being included in the database for approval.
RomneyLies
(3,333 posts)And you're proposal is 100% reasonable, which means the gun huggers will tear it to shreds and demand harsher legal penalties for people convicted on manslaughter and no parole for people covicted of manslaughter because FREEDOM and it's about ANYTHING except the guns.
Warren Stupidity
(48,181 posts)they can go to the nearest gun show to buy a gun without a background check.
malaise
(295,793 posts)Go NRA - defend your Bushmaster!!! 
geomon666
(7,519 posts)That's the real question!
Cronkite
(158 posts)I can't help but think some of these young idiots are being influenced by violent video games. When I was a kid way back when I had the pleasure of playing "pong"; now kids kill 100 people on their computer screens every day. Does that develop healthy minds?
farminator3000
(2,117 posts)i think the fact he was using the same gun means we HAVE to do something about those guns, something major and put in into the media as fast as possible to counteract pandora being out of the box. don't try to put her back in. just close the box and forget about her, if you ignore her she'll go away.
why not make it so you have to register federally for say, anything over two handguns and any semi-auto over 10 shots, and EXPLAIN why you need the gun, get a license, insure it, etc
target practice, hunting, whatever, but every person who owns one should be responsible for it- the latest guy's sister probably bought him the guns. at a bar.
if the laws were just done right, everybody could have all the guns they wanted- a collector shouldn't have to be limited because some goon wants to show off, right?
let the states take care of handgun laws.
does that seem logical- two handguns AND a long gun are state level(only one can be semi-auto, 20 round total for 3 guns), anything over is feds? what could you possibly need more firepower than that for?
the important thing is how do these looneys get guns? people aren't responsible enough, which is why we have laws
so the above with:
RomneyLies )
108. Better yet, his buddy does not even HAVE to give him up.
His first purchase is a part of a federal registry so his name automatically comes up when they check on the gun.
LP2K12
(885 posts)are part of the solution. I still think the magazines should be limited to 10 rounds or less. If s/he's a collector they wont need 20+ rounds.
If they're a hunter and can't make they're target with 10 rounds... reload and try and again. Or, maybe... you're not a hunter.
If it's for self defense. One shot, one kill. That's what the military teachers. You don't need to spray someone in public or your home with 20+ rounds.
farminator3000
(2,117 posts)to keep the states(talking to you, AZ) from giving people the impression that army rifles on public streets are sane
i'd say 8 rounds instead of 10-
two 6 shooters+8 shot long gun=20
two 8 round semi pistols+4 shots hunting gun=20
10 round semi-anything- FED
and mandatory background check for EVERY purchase @ state level- red flag means mental evaluation
you don't need a chainsaw to break a stick, exactly!