Sweden: Ebba Busch, deputy PM & leader of the Christian Democrats, calls for a total ban on the burqa & niqab in public

[Celerity]

https://www.thelocal.se/20251013/today-in-sweden-a-roundup-of-the-latest-news-on-monday-214

https://archive.ph/ads1J



"You should be able to meet someone properly if you're on the street, shopping on the square, in Ica or taking your kids to the doctor," she told Aftonbladet. "In those situations I don't want to be meeting someone who has hidden their whole face."

The ban would include public areas, like streets, squares, shopping centres and healthcare centres.

According to Busch, the burqa ‒ an item of clothing which fully covers the body and face ‒ and niqab ‒ a similar garment where the eyes are not covered ‒ are symbols of a strict interpretation of Islam which clashes with Swedish values.

"Islam needs to adapt to Sweden," she said. "You can be a proud Swedish Muslim, Christian, Jew, atheist, but there are basic Swedish values which need to apply to all of us."

snip

[yardwork]

1. What are your thoughts on this?

[Celerity]

2. I detest Ebba Busch and KD (Christian Democrats) in re many of their stances, but I am very open to this public ban,

especially (for me) coming from a feminist perspective.

There already are similar bans in (Europe-wise): Austria, Belgium, Bulgaria, Denmark, France, Luxembourg, the Netherlands, and Switzerland.

[yardwork]

4. I go back and forth on this.

Like you, I'm strongly biased against women being forced or coerced into covering their faces. Then I think, well, people have the right to dress as they choose. Then I think, we wouldn't want it to be legal to beat your partner or children. Laws exist to protect people.

It's kind of a difficult question. Sounds like most of Europe has decided on an approach.

[electric_blue68]

23. Oh, I sure hear you as a feminist myself, but also get yardwork's pov...

Still, I guess I'm more glad that not that the burka is banned in those European countries. The naquib you do see the woman's eyes.
Let me clarify that I find the burka offensive, not too thrilled about the naquib, either.

I just double-checked that the burka at least can be blue, or light pink (also brown, or burgandy). At least those two colors (blue , light pink) reduce the sniffling heat factor of wearing black in hot climates, or time of year!
Think of the fact that Saudi men wear all white traditional outfits that reflect heat, not absorb it like black color/fabric does!

There used to be, I think, a joke about NYC women (of which I am) wearing all black - can't remember what it was about. I love bright colors, a few shades, rare pastels, and also wearing an all black outfit. However, I don't wear an all black outfit over around 70°F/21.11°C; it'd start to get too hot on any partly to full sunny day!

Living in NYC you see all manner of clothing, but only once did I ever see a woman in a burqua of any kind (it was black) in a store, and that was around 35+ years ago. It was shocking!
I'm not sure I've seen a naquib.

[BlueWaveNeverEnd]

24. I see burquas in Los Angeles area ..not often though.the black gloves the whole bit.

I'm of two minds, as are a lot of people. Freedom of clothing but it's a visual representation of gender inequity.

[electric_blue68]

25. Oh, wow. Yes, serious inequality Reminder!...

I wondered for a half a min; why relatively more (since L.A.population is smaller than NYC) worn burkas seen by you vs me, once 35+ yrs ago....
Then, ahah, could be the steadyish warm, very warm L.A. climate vs NYC's cold months!

[Phoenix61]

3. I agree. I was in Indonesia during Ramadan.

I had a much higher opinion of Islam before that. It is not a female friendly faith there and the burqa is the embodiment of that. For comparison, the Morman faith wanted polygamy but the law said no.

[Mike Nelson]

5. You can see the faces...

... of the nuns in US Catholic schools. I think it's important to see eyes... the article mentions doctors. I wouldn't return to a doctor who was completely covered, so maybe the marketplace would take over? For people you might see shopping, who cares? Let them wear what they want. I think being completely covered means they may not be interested in meeting me... maybe they can meet other people with their beliefs? I assume there is some way to see when the entire face is hidden... for their own safety, like in walking across the street; for everyone's safety, if they are driving a car.

[yardwork]

6. I doubt that women in burqas are allowed to drive.

But I don't know.

Burqas have mesh fabric over the eyes. The person can see out enough to walk around, but people can't see their eyes.

To me, it is a form of bondage. I don't like it.

[Mike Nelson]

10. Yes, that is also an issue...

... women wearing the clothing as part of a culture that would also prohibit them from driving a motor vehicle... a way to "keep women in their place."

[WhiskeyGrinder]

7. To me, a ban prohibiting an item of clothing is as oppressive as a requirement forcing someone to wear that item.

[Celerity]

8. disagree nt

[yardwork]

9. Should it be legal to wear a ball gag in public?

Should it be legal to walk your wife on a leash, with her arms tied behind her back, in public?

There are limits. I'm not familiar with Sweden's constitution but I imagine there is some right reserved for the government to protect the public's health.

[WhiskeyGrinder]

11. Pretty sure there aren't laws against those specific examples; if someone was mad about it, maybe it could fall under

a disorderly conduct or obscenity ordinance.

I imagine there is some right reserved for the government to protect the public's health.

How does banning niqab/burqa protect public health?

[yardwork]

14. I'll bet you can think of an answer to that.

[efhmc]

20. I would agree if both sexes were required by their religion to go by the same rules.

[JI7]

12. I have listened to many women from Muslim families

so I agree with this ban.

And I don't think this would ban the hijab which is like the headscarf.

[Celerity]

13. correct, it would not ban the hijab, only the burqa and niqab

[WhiskeyGrinder]

15. There's a group of people near where I live who are part of a Christian sect (which still has its roots in Sweden, as an

aside.)

The kids go to public school but are subject to cultural restrictions that aren't surprising -- no TV or popular music, dating only within the sect, not a high priority for educating girls (many of whom get pregnant and drop out before graduation), etc. It's tough to see bright kids growing up in an environment where you know they'll be restricted in beliefs and experiences, particularly the girls; having a full-time job is discouraged and their role is to get married and have kids. It's difficult to leave the sect -- I know of a couple, but it's arduous, and often simply much easier to stay in it.

The married women are not allowed to wear pants in public. They can wear leggings with tunics, but not pants. Does banning tunics in this free and open society help them or harm them? Does it help or harm the wider community? Is the tunic the problem? Is any of it?

[Celerity]

16. not a valid comparison

[WhiskeyGrinder]

17. Why not?

[Celerity]

19. Because of the extreme levels of oppression, submission, and dehumanisation that flow from the burqa & niqab.

Forcing women to wear either is far, far more radical than some prohibition of married women wearing pants.

[WhiskeyGrinder]

21. How is the government forbidding someone from wearing an item of clothing that otherwise meets all cultural/legal

requirements of clothing not oppression?

And why do people think it wouldn't be extended to the hijab?

[Celerity]

22. It is only a ban (a ban that already exists in multiple nations across the globe) of two very specific types of dress,

types that are extreme in terms of their anti-female dehumanising intent and outcome. Also, it is only a ban for public areas.

You asked:

And why do people think it wouldn't be extended to the hijab?

Because there is no valid (IMHO) reason to ban the hijab, which is far less disruptive, oppressive, and dehumanising than the burqa and the niqab. The hijab does not hide the facial identity of a person wearing it, unlike the buqa and the niqab . No western nation that has banned the burqa and the niqab has banned the hijab, especially in all public spaces.

[yardwork]

26. In general those "slippery slope" arguments turn out not to be valid.

In general it's best to enact laws without worrying about a potential extreme future step that may never occur.

This argument has been used for decades to strike down reasonable control of guns and it's done us no good whatsoever.

[obamanut2012]

18. Good, they should be

The headscarf isn't banned.