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[WhiskeyGrinder]

1. When a group in power oppresses another group because of its identity, it's impossible to fight it without naming it,

nor can you repair the specific harm without acknowledging the difference the harm was based on.

Is there a way to oppose discrimination without intensifying the identities of the victimized groups?

Why are you trying to control someone else's identity?

Can we insist on fair treatment for all without focusing on the particular people who are being unfairly treated?

You can insist on all sorts of things without getting results.

Is there a way to fight discrimination without encouraging more identity politics?

What does "encouraging more identity politics" look like?

[LAS14]

18. Whiskey Grinder - "Why are you trying to control someone else's identity?"

Because I think locating identity in a group instead of in one's unique attributes as a human being contributes greatly to the divisiveness that is tearing apart our societ. If society lends great importance to group membership, it's hard for an individual to resist.

WhiskeyGrinder - "You can insist on all sorts of things without getting results."

Precisely why I posted the question.

WhiskeyGrinder - "What does "encouraging more identity politics" look like?"

Referring to/thinking about people in terms of their group membership instead of their uniqueness.

[yardwork]

21. It's none of your business how other people describe themselves.

This is a jaw dropping OP.

You are literally telling every other person in the world that you know better than them how to describe themselves!

This is the definition of privilege.

[WhiskeyGrinder]

25. .

Because I think locating identity in a group instead of in one's unique attributes as a human being contributes greatly to the divisiveness that is tearing apart our societ.

Well that's just like your opinion man. If we're all unique, what do we have in common?

If society lends great importance to group membership, it's hard for an individual to resist.

If a person lives in a white supremacy, which we do in America, it does indeed make it hard for an individual to resist seeing themselves as Black or white, it's true.

Referring to/thinking about people in terms of their group membership instead of their uniqueness.

What do you mean by "uniqueness"? Why do you resist people affiliating in ways that work for them? What uniqueness do you possess that would not indicate a group membership?

[Scrivener7]

2. I (white woman) think I have come to the conclusion that the politically rational thing to do

is to say, "What do black women say?" Because, if voting for the true common good is what you consider rational - which I do - then black women are the most consistently rational.

It still depends on a group identity, but it is the opposite group from the white men who have gotten us into this mess. Maybe if we all do this, we'll get the opposite results. And that would be very nice.

[yardwork]

3. Same here. Black women save our democracy over and over.

[Keepthesoulalive]

4. White America has been doing identity politics

Since they came ashore. Taking indigenous peoples land because they are savages, enslaving Africans to civilize them and bring them to god and whatever group they could demonize for their financial and cultural benefit. Maybe you should ask white people to stop with the identity politics because when you look behind the curtain, guess who benefits and prospers because of it.

[LAS14]

5. All I can think of, too.

"Maybe you should ask white people to stop with the identity politics because when you look behind the curtain," Yes, that's all I've been able to come up with, and, of course, it is totally ineffective.

Other ideas?

[yardwork]

9. Why is that totally ineffective?

[LAS14]

12. Why would they stop just because I asked them to? nt

[yardwork]

15. So why are you asking the victims to stop complaining?

[LAS14]

19. I'm not asking the victims to stop complaining. They have to complain.

And the only solutions I can think of involve focusing on their group. Because the bad guys are focusing on their group. I'm hoping someone has an idea about how to do it otherwise.

[yardwork]

23. Why?

If a person fires me because I'm gay, when I take them to court I'm going to have to mention that I'm gay. They caused the wrong, not me. But somehow I'm now in the wrong (according to you) because I brought up "group identity?"

What?!

[Keepthesoulalive]

14. Minorities can't fix your problems

White people have to fix their problems. The majority of white men voted for republicans in the last election and they have not voted for democrats since the civil rights movement. Why are you asking the oppressed to stop the oppressors.
You must come up with the solution to your problem. I am sorry this makes you uncomfortable, imagine how the targeted feel.

[Quiet Em]

6. How about we stop calling discrimination "identity politics" and call it discrimination.

Because when discrimination is referred to as "identity politics" it's done so to minimize or dismiss the issue.

[LAS14]

13. I was referring to "identity politics" as what people are forced...

... to engage in in order to fight discimination.

[yardwork]

16. What.

Are those people in the room with us right now?

[yardwork]

7. I agree with WhiskeyGrinder's questions but I'll be even more pointed.

It sounds like you are annoyed that people who are different from some group you think of as "normal" insist on having their identities acknowledged.

You say "focusing on group identities is a bad thing." Why? And, who is focusing on group identities? Right wing commentators and politicians focus on them a lot. Most of the rest of us do not.

You say "it divides us." Aren't we already divided in many ways? I feel divided from people who support Trump. People who are hungry today feel divided from billionaires who are buying luxury goods.

As a gay cis-gender white woman raised in the rural midwest in a Christian tradition and now living in the U.S. southeast, I am "divided" from nobody except those whose votes and beliefs are so different from my own I can't stomach being around them, i.e., people who think that Trump is hilarious and applaud his actions. I feel divided from them and doubt that will change.

What I don't do is go around loudly proclaiming that I'm gay, for instance. Nor am I demanding any "special rights." I'm grateful that I had the right to marry and I don't want that right taken away. It's only when my human rights are under attack that I bring up my identity.

My Black friends, coworkers, and neighbors seem to feel the same. I don't hear them bring up "I'm black" unless it's in the context of bigotry against Black people. And even then they rarely bring it up. They just deal with it. Most white people don't have a clue what they deal with. And now you want them to stop mentioning it all, ever? While MAGAs go wild in their bigotry and hatred?

I don't understand your concern.

But if we're talking about what people "should" do I suggest we focus on telling bigots we happen to know that their bigoted opinions and actions aren't welcome. The next time you hear somebody say a racial slur (and you know what I'm talking about), why not bring up your questions about group identities and ask them to stop focusing on other people's identities?

[LAS14]

27. Response to Yardwork

It sounds like you are annoyed that people who are different from some group you think of as "normal" insist on having their identities acknowledged.

I wish there were a way to think about people in terms of their individuality. "Annoyed" isn't the right word, but I wish group membership weren't front and center of the way we're asked to think about people, either by them, or by societal pressures. I understand that, until we come up with a good answer to my post, affirming their group is one of their main recourses to fight back. I just wish there were another way.

You say "focusing on group identities is a bad thing." Why? And, who is focusing on group identities? Right wing commentators and politicians focus on them a lot. Most of the rest of us do not.

Of course we do. I don't know if it's still there, but the DNC web site had a long list of the groups it advocated for. I wish there were a neutral way to advocate for the justice that is required for these folks.

You say "it divides us." Aren't we already divided in many ways? I feel divided from people who support Trump. People who are hungry today feel divided from billionaires who are buying luxury goods.

Of course we are. I don't see how wanting to un-divide us in some ways denies that we're still divided in others.

As a gay cis-gender white woman raised in the rural midwest in a Christian tradition and now living in the U.S. southeast, I am "divided" from nobody except those whose votes and beliefs are so different from my own I can't stomach being around them, i.e., people who think that Trump is hilarious and applaud his actions. I feel divided from them and doubt that will change.

As I said above, victimized people have few alternatives at this point but to fight fire with fire.

What I don't do is go around loudly proclaiming that I'm gay, for instance. Nor am I demanding any "special rights." I'm grateful that I had the right to marry and I don't want that right taken away. It's only when my human rights are under attack that I bring up my identity.

That's great. In various churches I've attended you're asked to wear a badge with your name and your preferred pronoun. That firms up the identity of the church (progressive) and divides people according to sexual identification. I don't think it's helpful.

My Black friends, coworkers, and neighbors seem to feel the same. I don't hear them bring up "I'm black" unless it's in the context of bigotry against Black people. And even then they rarely bring it up. They just deal with it. Most white people don't have a clue what they deal with.

And now you want them to stop mentioning it all, ever?

Of course not. There's a name for that rhetorical move, but I forget. Straw man??

I don't understand your concern.

Do you understand it better now?

But if we're talking about what people "should" do I suggest we focus on telling bigots we happen to know that their bigoted opinions and actions aren't welcome. The next time you hear somebody say a racial slur (and you know what I'm talking about), why not bring up your questions about group identities and ask them to stop focusing on other people's identities?

Sure. But I was hoping for ideas about a more robust way to respond. A way for the DNC to fight for justice without listing oppressed groups.

[leftstreet]

29. You're so close to asking the right question

How can we prevent marginalized people from suffering discrimination if we never stop marginalizing and discriminating against them?

Women secured the vote in the early 1900s
Politicians are trying to end abortion in 2025

Gay people fought for equal employment and housing in the 1980s
Politicians are trying to end gay marriage in 2025

People of color secured civil rights in the 1960s
Politicians are letting law enforcement kidnap brown people in 2025

[LearnedHand]

8. Identity politics is a rightwing framework

How about we stop letting the frame the discussion.

[LAS14]

28. I never thought of it as right wing. I just thought of it as...

....a handy phrase to describe our political discourse on both sides/all sides.

[leftstreet]

10. There was never an off-ramp for identity politics

Pandering to marginalized people for votes without actually improving their conditions was a losing strategy.
We've now got a guy with a Nazi tattoo gaining attention because he's talking about wages and healthcare for all.

Class over identity - that's where this was always going to end up

[Torchlight]

11. It does not follow

Seems short-sighted to me to ignore particular victims of injustice simply to create a more generic, easily-digestable and convenient narrative. Requesting victims change their behavior to appease those victimizing them seems shallow, meritless and counterproductive.

[LAS14]

30. Where did you get "ignore" from my post?

I want to address injustice. I don't want to ignore anyone. I just wish there were a way to fight back against discrimination without falling into the trap that group membership establishes one's identity. Asking for ideas here.

[Torchlight]

33. You call it both "a trap" as well as a "handy tool for discourse"

Hence, my opinion your argument lacks merit

[obamanut2012]

17. Oh brother

[MineralMan]

20. Whenever discriminatory behavior or actions aim at any particular group,

It's almost impossible to oppose that behavior without talking about the particular group. It is precisely that group identity that is being attacked. While we might be able to agree that "fair treatment for all" is the goal, we must deal with specific incidents of unfair treatment as specific incidents. You cannot separate the identity or description of those being discriminated against and oppose that specific discrimination.

So, it's no wonder that you cannot find a way. There isn't one.

[LAS14]

31. Thanks for addressing my question!

"we must deal with specific incidents of unfair treatment as specific incidents. You cannot separate the identity or description of those being discriminated against and oppose that specific discrimination."

Even though your answer is "No, there's no way to avoid dealing with groups." I'm afraid you may be right.

[Happy Hoosier]

22. You know what also divides us? Racism.

How do you fight racism without "identity politics." Ya can't. The only thing you can do is ignore it to meet other objectives, like FDR did.

[Keepthesoulalive]

24. Except black Americans were left out

Again identity politics. He traded black folks economic interests for white southern votes and we still haven’t caught up.

[Happy Hoosier]

32. That's the point.

Including black folks would alienated white racists who otherwise supported his programs. So he threw them under the bus.

Standing up for the rights of oppressed peoples is always going to be seen as "identitiy politics."

[Bettie]

26. Anything that isn't 100% about lifting up straight, white, right wing,

"Christian" men is going to be called Identity politics.

There is no way around it.

They want identity politics, but there's only one identity they are okay with it being about.