WOW - Steve Forbes right now on CSPAN - THEY HAVE LOOTED THE SOC SEC FUND!

[SugarShack]

Last edited Thu Dec 27, 2012, 06:27 PM - Edit history (1)

"If the private sector did this with the people's pension funds, they'd be wearing stripes!"

THIS is what they have done to our fund. He said it needs to stop!

He's taking calls right now!

[Schema Thing]

1. actually that's not true is it.. the private sector has done that

and worse, to pension funds, haven't they?

[JHB]

5. Yep, and the only stripes they are wearing are pinstripes.

Anyone have a list of management-gutted pension plans, and half a day to watch it scroll at top speed?

[HereSince1628]

27. Exactly.

What they NEVER want to do is to be accountable.

Enron is the icon of the modern business model...take the money and Run.

[adieu]

40. Here in the SF Bay Area

we had a race track, the Bay Meadows race track in San Mateo. The workers there were promised a big pension in lieu of higher pay. Then, the company sold the land for housing development and such and the race track was closed. Nope, no pensions were honored. They took all the money as part of the sale and didn't honor the pension. So the workers are left holding the bag.

So where were the prison sentences, Steve?

[alfredo]

57. They seem to forget to what happens to a ruling class that put themselves above the law.

[The Wizard]

42. Hostess cakes (NT)

[arcane1]

2. And yet Al Gore was mocked for using the term "lockbox"

Replacing a trust fund with IOUs... what could go wrong?

[TDale313]

12. Yep. Was thinking the same thing...

Gee, kinda wishing Al Gore's lockbox had been in place. What a different world we'd be in if we'd actually seen a President Al Gore sworn in.

[ErikJ]

29. Yup, he was ridiculed by the Republicans.

They love using the SS trust fund instead of restoring taxes on the rich.

[HiPointDem]

54. as he deserved. the 'lockbox' was a misleading concept; it actually helped make the public stupider

Last edited Thu Dec 27, 2012, 06:50 PM - Edit history (1)

about how SS works.

It's been the same since the original SS legislation was enacted: ALL EXCESS SS TAXES ARE BORROWED BY THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT AND SPENT INTO THE GENERAL BUDGET.

IN EXCHANGE, FEDERAL SECURITIES ARE PUT INTO THE TRUST FUND AND REDEEMED (REPAID) REGULARLY.

There is no 'lockbox,' there never was a 'lockbox,' and there can never be a 'lockbox'.


PS: what gore could have done is voted against the 1983 legislation that increased SS taxes abover the amount needed to fund then-current retirees, creating an ever-increasing surplus that is now the $2.5+ trillion sitting in the SS Trust Fund.

But Gore sat that one out, like a coward. As did a lot of our supposedly 'progressive' luminaries.

[ReasonableToo]

76. I thought the looting happened earlier ...

...than the 2000 debates. (Did the first lockbox conversation happen before 2000 campaign?)

[Mass]

3. Classic RW meme that leads to cutting Soc Sec benefits.

[G_j]

4. +1

[HiPointDem]

46. +1

[ProSense]

6. Clearly, there's a desperation for heroes.

Steve Forbes?

[patrice]

35. The gleaners are making their internet rounds. It's all about "body" count at this point. nt

[Enrique]

7. Steve Forbes is an enemy of Social Security

if he is claiming to be concerned with the future of the program, he is being a gigantic hypocrite. Which would be totally familiar, for my entire lifetime all the enemies of Social Security have pretended to be concerned with its future.

[Enrique]

8. explain your "WOW"

you don't believe that asshole, do you?

[HughBeaumont]

9. Steve Forbes is an idle rich Third-base baby who widens moats and burns the bridges.

He's about as concerned for Social Security as Pol Pot was for Cambodia's intellectuals.

"Sorry there ain't no better way of puttin' it . . ."

[cthulu2016]

10. Back slowly away from the Steve Forbes...

[CTyankee]

22. serously, the eyes on that guy disturb me...

[eShirl]

24. kinda like mitch mcconnell, imo

[CTyankee]

28. There used to be a congressman from NYC who had those eyes. They never blinked...

[wordpix]

51. true, there's no "there" there

[tjwash]

11. You actually believe that lying sack of shit?

He is just saying that crap to snow job the American people into handing it over to his criminal pals on wall street.

Sad part is, some people actually swallow it.

[TheProgressive]

13. The Social Security Trust Fund is *invested* in special US Treasuries....

How is this 'looting'?

We the people even earn interest...

Just like all the countries and people invested in US Treasuries...

[Skittles]

14. THIS is why "Social Security is on the table"

I would not entertain anything Mr. Forbes touted as a solution though

[kentuck]

15. They have looted foreign treasuries also...

including the Chinese and Japanese. We owe them bundles of Treasury notes.

However, the question then becomes:

Do we pay the Chinese and Japanese but not the Social Security fund?

Who is first in line: The Chinese or the American workers?

[Taitertots]

16. If the money hadn't been spent, we could have a 2 Trillion dollar sovereign wealth fund

Instead of 2 Trillion dollars of extra federal debt.

[TheProgressive]

18. By law, SS must invest the surplus...

..and it is invested in the most safest investment in the world - US Treasuries.

What I would like to see is that the funds allocated to the SS Trust Fund be 'spent'
on infrastructure projects.

[customerserviceguy]

63. They're NOT all US Treasuries

Even the SSA acknowledges this:

"The Trust Funds hold a mix of short-term and long-term government bonds. The Trust Funds can hold both regular Treasury securities and "special obligation" securities issued only to federal trust funds. In practice, most of the securities in the Social Security Trust Funds are of the "special obligation" type. " See Question 27 here:

http://www.ssa.gov/history/hfaq.html

These "special obligation" securities are not negotiable, tradeable on the open market, and the only entity that gets to decide when and how to redeem them is Congress, when it passes a law signed by the President. If I gave you a check for your services, but told you that you simply cannot cash it until I tell you there's money in the bank to redeem it, what have I given you? Especially when you see me pulling the same trick with other people? Would you have a lot of faith that you're going to get paid, when you see me spending way more than I can possibly make at my job?

Oh, and those "borrowed" funds have bought plenty of bridges to nowhere. Of course, that was only an exchange of currency, what they really bought was votes for congresscritters who are now long since retired or dead.

[TheProgressive]

64. So what's your issue? They are invested in US backed investment instruments...

I am not sure what your argument is...

Social Security is funded by you and me and invested in US Government investments.

When we retire, we receive our earned benefits...

[customerserviceguy]

65. There are negotiable and non-negotiable instruments

I'd rather have one that I can sell to someone else on a publically-traded market, wouldn't you?

And I'm not nearly as confident as you are that I will receive those benefits, and I'm 57. I don't think we have the political will in this country to undertake the necessary reforms to get us past the retirement of the baby boomers.

[TheProgressive]

66. The SS Trust Fund earned $114 Billion in interest last year...

So, really, what is your concern if they are publicly traded or not? All
I want is extremely safe and predictable interest. What's wrong with that?

And *we* are the political will (at least on SS). We yell and scream to insure SS
is solvent for 70 years. All it takes is to remove the cap.

They mess with SS - America will revolt.

[Elmergantry]

69. Who cuts the check for the interest payments?

And who is going to pay off the principal on those Tbills? The US Treasury. So the US treasury has to use its own revenues to pay interest on the Tbills. Where do you think the US treasury is getting the money? From the taxpayers OR by borrowing. If borrowing, they are adding to the debt. How are they borrowing? By creating and selling new Tbills. Who has to pay off these new Tbills? Yep the US Treasury. Where is the US treasuring going to get the money? From the Taxpayers OR by borrowing.....

Do you see where this is leading?

Not good.

[TheProgressive]

71. What about all those Treasuries and Bonds owed to Countries and

people?

See where this is leading? America borrows money and pays it back with interest.

Oh My Fucking God.... is that how it works?

[Elmergantry]

73. Well the US better make good on them.

The idea is if our country is going to borrow, there must be a reasonable chance that the debts will be paid off eventually.

Problem is, investors are getting nervous about that ever happening.

That is why the biggest loaner to the US is no longer China or other countries, but the Fed - the borrower of last resort. The Chinese dont want anymore of our debt; they are getting nervous.

Seems to me what the US is doing now is instead of paying off the credit cards(Tbills), its just getting more credit cars and moving the increasing debt onto the new cards(Tbills) and getting itself 30 more days to make a payment.

Thats unsustainable. Thats why gold is $1500 an ounce.

[TheProgressive]

74. Investors are not getting nervous...

Our debt is not outrageous.

Sorry, it is all hype.

That said, yes we have to reduce our debt. And all you have to do is 1) increase taxes on the rich, and most
importantly, 2) p u t A m e r i c a n s to work.

[Elmergantry]

75. Hope your right. NT.

[russspeakeasy]

17. Please remember that steve forbes is a lying sack of shit.

[abelenkpe]

20. That works for me :) nt

[abelenkpe]

19. "If the private sector did this with the people's pension funds, they'd be wearing stipes!"

No they wouldn't. They'd be allowed to give themselves raises to retain top CEO talent as they finish off killing the company. Remember Hostess?

Can you call Forbes and ask him to name these private sector company or CEO that went to jail for destroying workers pension funds? Cause I have a real hard time believing that.

But let's say he's right and the soc sec fund is missing. What's to stop the US from printing money to replace that? It's not like THAT would cause inflation. It would only dampen deflation. Generations of seniors dying without basic housing, food and healthcare is not exactly good for the economy.

[ErikJ]

21. He's now preaching his Flat Tax and Deregulation propaganda.

It was the Republicans who crucified Gore in 2000 for campaigning on a SS Lock-box.

[reflection]

23. The only time anyone should listen to Steve Forbes

is when he is appearing as Teve Torbes.

http://www.hulu.com/watch/280373

[pa28]

25. "looted the soc sec fund". They keep saying that and it's not true.

The trust fund we've paid into is safe, sound and working exactly as the Greenspan commission intended 30 years ago. The looting only begins if we make the surplus permanent instead of spending it down as originally intended.

[Faryn Balyncd]

31. You are correct. Forbes wants everyone to think the theft is a fait accompli, when in reality...

...it is a loan, invested in Treasury securities, as originally planned, and as required by law.

These $2.7 trillion in Treasury securities are OWED to the SS TRust Fund, just as the remainder of the $16 trillion in national debt financed by Treasury securities is owed to other investors, including Chinese and other foreign bond-holders, institutional investors, individual investors, etc.

Nobody is talking about the $13 trillion owed to anyone other than the SS Trust Fund as having been permanently stolen.

It will only be permanently stolen if politicians decide to not honor the bonds held by the SS TRust Fund (ie, cut SS benefits rather than allow the Trust Fund to utiliz the Treasury bonds to pay benefits as intended.

Forbes is in reality advocating the permanent theft of Trust Fund assets by mis-representing it as something that has already occurred.

He is advocating a SELECTIVE DEFAULT on bonds held by the SS Trust Fund, and not on the other $13 trillion owed to other bondholders.

[kentuck]

32. If the Treasury notes that are there to replace the SS funds the government borrowed are no good?

Then the Treasury notes that are there for the Chinese and the Japanese are no good either. We are broke. It's time for a Jubilee! All debts are forgiven!

[Elmergantry]

72. True!

Imagine the reaction of the Chinese if we welched on the TBills....I bet Tawain would all of a sudden look like some "collateral" to collect...

I dont think the citizen here who own TBills would be too happy...

Dollar would crash-hyperinflation

A good time would be had by all...

[A Simple Game]

26. I don't usually agree with Forbes but he's right.

They have no plans to repay the money invested in bonds.

[Elmergantry]

30. They will pay it back...by issuing more TBills

Way back starting in the Johnson admin, the govt started borrowing all those bucks the SS was piling up to spend on whatever they damn well pleased. In place of those dollars they put in Tbills, in the meantime telling us what an awesome "trust fund" of tbills has been created by the SS...

Fast forward to today...the SS needs to cash in those Tbills as the amount of inflow of SS revenue is less than outflow of benefits. Our Uncle Sam has no money to pay back those TBills....so what is Uncle Sam doing? - Borrowing more money to pay off the Tbills...causing the debt to go up by the amount of the interest owed.

In other words, the govts left hand is borrowing money from the Fed (who creates it out of nothing) to pay back the money it borrowed from the right hand(SS). Our esteemed polticians want to cut back the SS outflows so they can slow down the borrowing to pay back those Tbills.

Al Gore was right, we needed to stop borrowing from SS, but he was a few decades too late Im afraid. Chickens meet your roost.

[quaker bill]

33. It is a bit more bizzarre than that

The fed is buying the t-bills as well as mortgage backed securities with brand new money that they aren't borrowing from anyone. They are and have for sometime been pumping 50 billion or so new dollars a month into the economy with little discernable effect on growth, interest rates, or inflation. It is unclear how much money they can create before inflation starts, but it is apparently enough to pay SS benefits for quite some time to come.

[Elmergantry]

70. Yep, its my understandin that the biggest purchaser of Tbills

Is now the Fed Reserve. They "print" the money; loan it to the Govt by buying TBills, and the govt has to pay it back to the Fed with interest...tell me that doesnt sound like a scam!

Heck if someone is going to print money, why not the US treasury with Lincolns "greenbacks"? Dont have to pay it back, or pay interest...But with the lack of discipline in Congress could you imagine what would happen!!?

[A Simple Game]

62. It is indeed a very big cat and a very small bag. n/t

[patrice]

34. ??? FACT: The private sector DID do that AND MORE to people's pension funds. Steve Forbes????

Do you mean ANTI-ProgressiveTax-Flat-turned-Fair-turned-9-9-9Tax Taxer Steve Forbes?

Uh, No! and I'm not even going to thanks you for the offer!

[iamthebandfanman]

36. Nobody has EVER 'raided' the soc sec fund.

Ever.
Its a trust fund, soley for the purpose of SS. its litereally illegal to take funds from the trust for anything but SS.

the only thing that changed about SS is that johnson started including it in the governments budget ... not because they could use the money.. but because it helped inflate the numbers.

clinton did the same thing.
every president since johnson has.


nobody has ever taken money OUT of SS.

now, theyve reduced the only tax that pays for SS... several times... which is the main reason its in any trouble at all.... ive seen studies that show if wed only raise the payroll tax 0.2% it would ensure its viability until the 2080s.

[xtraxritical]

55. Screw raising the payroll tax! Remove the income withholding ceiling.

With no cap on income subject to withholding the retirement age could be lowered to 55 and Social Security would be solvent for eternity.

[HiPointDem]

61. that off-budget/on-budget, johnson did it stuff is an irrelevant red herring.

all excess SS tax collections *are* borrowed into the general budget. fact. it's been the law since SS was created.

[Elmergantry]

68. Have to respectfully disagree...

When you take the cash the SS has brought in it to pay for spending outside of SS, (much of it on defense and to make up for tax revenues lost when you give tax cuts to the rich) and replace with IOU's known as TBills, imho you have "raided it".. I do realize the SS was required by law to "invest" the cash into safe investments, but loaning it out to yourself with no money to pay it back was irresponsible. Hell they should have invested the money in Gold.

When one says the SS admin has a balance sheet of xxx billion in assets in Tbills, its like me saying the wife "division" of my household holds xxx in assets in the form of IOUS written out by me the husband to my wife when I borrowed her money for those hookers and gambling in Vegas......

[adieu]

37. The private sector has done this with people's pension funds

Look at what Hostess did with the workers' pension funds before declaring bankruptcy.

Look at what Bain Capital did with all those companies they bought out and stole the pension funds, leaving the pension fund insurance (i.e., tax payers) to pay for the lost money.

Why aren't they in prison, Steve?

[duffyduff]

38. Steve Forbes, enough said.

Not buying one word he says.

[lovuian]

39. As long as we can tax the rich we can

refill that social security Box

[pnwmom]

41. His aim is to eliminate Social Security. So I"m not interested in any of his opinions. n/t

[Coyotl]

43. Bullshit. They have looted the future of the USA with War Debts.

Do the math!

[HiPointDem]

44. Steve Forbes is a winger who wants to cut social security. They have *not* 'looted' the TF,

but steve wants you to think so, because then people like him won't have to have their *income taxes* raised to pay it back.

This is misleading bullshit.

All excess SS taxes *must,* by the terms of the original SS law, be borrowed into the general fund and spent.

The problem came in 1983, when a BIPARTISAN congress voted to increase SS taxes above the amount needed to support then-current retirees and fund a reasonable cushion. 30 years of ever-increasing surpluses were the result, turning the TF from a 1 year cushion to a 5+ or more year big pot o' money.

The rich don't want to pay it back. That's why steve forbes is spouting this misleading crap -- he is one of the would-be 'looters'.

It's not looted until they decide they won't pay it back. forbes is hoping he can scare you into believing it's already happened.

[AverageJoe90]

50. Damn, you may just be right on this, HiPoint.

[HiPointDem]

53. yes, i'm right on this.

[TexasProgresive]

45. In his wildest dreams

Forbes has wet dreams over the thought of Social Security money.

[jtuck004]

47. Stevie's concern for the little people is touching. Like getting a BD card from Stalin. n/t

[melody]

49. Just another GOP tactical maneuver - try to make government look like the bad guys

[Zen Democrat]

52. Not true. The SS Fund is holding US Treasuries. As long as there's a USA they will be honored.

[FreeBC]

59. +1

[Warren Stupidity]

56. Steve Forbes is, in no particular order:

1) a massive right wing libertarian douche.
2) a notorious liar
3) a trust fund baby who thinks he made it on his own
4) an idiot.

Please do not propagate his stupid horseshit.

[BobbyBoring]

58. SS is all that's left

They've already raided the treasury to the tune of 17 TRILLION in the bail outs that started with Jr. Bush. That's right, 17 trillion. And what did they do with it? They stuck it in their greedy pockets in the form of bonuses. Bonuses for wiping out trillions in personal wealth. I don't know what they'll do when they finally get the final treasure~

[shintao]

60. No, no they wouldn't be wearing stripes

All these major Corporations are above the law, and have the judges hanging from their ying-yangs. ie. Hostess just shafted the workers pensions there twice thanks to the bankruptcy judge who allowed thm to give the CEOs the money.

All states have robbed the state pension funds and owe them millions to billions they cannot repay.

Alabama - $28 Billion deficit on employee beenfits Jefferson County bankruptcy
Alaska - $13 Billion deficit on emplyee benefits State budget Crisis
Arizona - $12 Billion deficit on employee benefits
Florida - $31 Billion deficit on employee benefits. Highest foreclosure rates
Georgia - $32 Billion deficit on employee benefits Trouble paying empoyees
Idaho - $3 Billion deficit on employee benefits Kootenai County bankruptcy
Indiana - $14 Billion deficit on employee beenfits Bill will allow Indiana cities to declare bankruptcy
Iowa - $6 Billion deficit on employee benefits Underfunded empoyees benefits 5 billion in hole
Kansas - $9 Billion deficit on employee benefits
Louisiana - $28 Billion deficit on employee benefits
Maine - $7 Billion deficit on employee benefits
Michigan - $67 Billion deficit on employee benefits City cuts power, removes street lights due to inability to pay electric bill
Mississippi - $12 Billion deficit on employee benefits
Nebraska - $2 Billion deficit on employee benefits
Nevada - $12 Billion deficit on employee benefits Highest unemployment rates
New Jersey - $108 Billion decifit on employee benefits
New Mexico - $12 Billion deficit on employee benefits
North Dakota - $2 Billion deficit on employee benefits
Ohio - $87 Billion deficit on employee benefits
Oaklahoma - $16 Billion deficit on employee benefits
Pennsylvania - $47 Billion deficit on employee benefits Pittsburg & Harrisburg bankruptcys
South Carolina - $24 Billion deficit on employee benefits
Tennessee $5 Billion deficit on employee benefits
Texas - $82 Billion deficit on employee benefits
Utah - $5 Billion deficit on employee benefits
Virginia -$26 Billion deficit on employee benefits
Wisconsin -$2 Billion deficit on employee benefits
Wyoming -$1 Billion deficit on employee benefits

http://www.pewstates.org/

[progressoid]

67. Steve Forbes? I'm going to need a courtesy flush...

[aquart]

77. Steve Forbes is why we need serious and punitive death duties.

[madrchsod]

78. who are "they" ?

oh well i guess we are doomed!!!!!!!!!

[Gothmog]

79. Forbes is an idiot

This claim is false. The GOP types really want to privatize social security and put these funds into the stock market.