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Sogo

(6,946 posts)
Mon Nov 17, 2025, 01:12 PM Nov 17

Here's an attorney friend of mine's take on the "scrubbing" of the Epstein files:

"But something else occurred to me which may cut against the notion of scrubbing the files.
All the Epstein files in the possession of the DOJ were presumably obtained over the the course of multiple investigations and interviews, including discovery in legal proceedings, including the criminal cases against Maxwell and Epstein.
In the ordinary course of document discovery, the documents obtained are numbered - lawyers call it Bates numbering after the old Bates automatic numbering “machines” (heavy stamping devices that rotated an inked number wheel to sequentially hand-number documents.)
The way it works is that all documents are scanned into a computer, usually converted to pdf if they already exist in an electronic file format, and then a computer program like Acrobat Pro, automatically, sequentially numbers them (it could be hundreds of thousands of documents) very quickly.
The numbering app within the program also allows for other alphanumeric characters to be added as either headers or footers, to function, for example as source identifier.
So a Bates number might be GM-0000001 (first document from Ghislaine Maxwell) or JE-0000001 (from Jeffrey Epstein).
Most commonly the Bates number is placed in the lower right hand corner of every page.
It is nearly impossible to unnumber the pages. So, if there is a mass document dump, all the pages should be, at least theoretically, sequentially numbered.
If pages are pulled, there will be gaps in the sequence of numbers..
Now, the program that does the Bates numbering also allows for redactions of words or word sequences (names are words) and it is certainly possible to conceal information via redactions and claim “victim privacy protection,” as if these corrupt grifters cared about that at all. They can redact whole pages, preserving the numerical page sequence while functionally not producing any information.
We will all have a better sense of the particular subterfuge being employed later in the week."

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Here's an attorney friend of mine's take on the "scrubbing" of the Epstein files: (Original Post) Sogo Nov 17 OP
And that will be another scandal within the main scandal. Ocelot II Nov 17 #1
Absolutely! SheltieLover Nov 17 #2
It's the coverup that gets them. C_U_L8R Nov 17 #3
First time I heard that one was during Watergate. calimary Nov 17 #12
Assuming material came through court etc. that would moniss Nov 17 #4
And who knows what Barr stuffed in his pockets leftstreet Nov 17 #9
Indeed and evidence may have existed moniss Nov 17 #10
THIS . And in that vein,... snot Nov 17 #15
Excellent point and given the recent moniss Nov 17 #16
Yikes! snot Nov 19 #17
EmptyWheel has many posts about Bates numberings and how the DOJ has tried to falsify documents. erronis Nov 17 #5
Am quite familiar with Bates numbers. BattleRow Nov 17 #6
Might require UT_democrat Nov 17 #7
Or a master... tavernier Nov 17 #8
Nice Pun 2na fisherman Nov 17 #11
See what you're doing..lol! BattleRow Nov 17 #13
Electronic documents can be renumbered. SunSeeker Nov 17 #14
+1000 nt WarGamer Nov 19 #18
"For the benefit of the court, would you please explain time code?" Orrex Nov 20 #19

Ocelot II

(128,785 posts)
1. And that will be another scandal within the main scandal.
Mon Nov 17, 2025, 01:15 PM
Nov 17

Just like the Nixon tapes' missing 18-1/2 minutes was a subscandal of Watergate. The more things start disappearing, the more attention is brought to the main scandal.

calimary

(88,831 posts)
12. First time I heard that one was during Watergate.
Mon Nov 17, 2025, 03:27 PM
Nov 17

“It’s not the crime. It’s the cover-up.”

moniss

(8,600 posts)
4. Assuming material came through court etc. that would
Mon Nov 17, 2025, 02:41 PM
Nov 17

be a logical assumption but as I have pointed out in a different post a few days back "the files" do not necessarily mean all documents and information of all kinds in possession of members within the agency. Once a document is placed into a file it is now considered to be a part of the file. For example if an informant hands an agent a slip of paper with some names and dates written on it but the agent never produces a report of the piece of paper and places that report in the file it is not a part of the file and so when people ask for "the files" it never means you have everything. As I pointed out lawyers are wise to this in FOIA cases, legal cases for damages etc. and they will be quite expansive and thorough in describing the categories of materials they seek rather than just asking for "the files".

Environmental case files, for example, in crooked jurisdictions will often contain little of the real information of what the situation is and is known. Deniability, limiting liability and limiting responsibility of those in the environmental agency and companies is the aim of such practices. It goes on with other matters as well such as foster care, safety inspections, building inspections etc.

leftstreet

(38,730 posts)
9. And who knows what Barr stuffed in his pockets
Mon Nov 17, 2025, 03:10 PM
Nov 17

Not literally, but the FBI and his DOJ raided Epstein's safe about 2 seconds after he was arrested. And later in the process Barr would say OH, yeah, there's no evidence of any client list.

Right

moniss

(8,600 posts)
10. Indeed and evidence may have existed
Mon Nov 17, 2025, 03:13 PM
Nov 17

before they got to it and once they did it "no longer existed".

snot

(11,422 posts)
15. THIS . And in that vein,...
Mon Nov 17, 2025, 04:31 PM
Nov 17

I don't think the docs introduced into the court case included ANY of the hundreds of videotapes, CDs, etc. scooped up by the FBI in its sweep of Epstein's mansions immediately following his death –– or do they?

moniss

(8,600 posts)
16. Excellent point and given the recent
Mon Nov 17, 2025, 04:46 PM
Nov 17

announcement that only now is his secluded property in New Mexico being searched it shows how purposely selective the investigations have been. Most reasonable people would think that all of his properties should have been searched around the world and in short order.

One of the things that our elected Dems need to demand in the hearings is an explanation of how the FBI filing system works, are file access logs kept for files taken and returned? Since the time that Bondi and Patel claimed "there's nothing there" how many times have the files been accessed, by whom and what files have not been returned and who checked out those files and when?

snot

(11,422 posts)
17. Yikes!
Wed Nov 19, 2025, 07:32 PM
Nov 19

I did not know about the delay in searching one (or are there more?) of his homes; thanks for pointing it out.

BattleRow

(2,084 posts)
6. Am quite familiar with Bates numbers.
Mon Nov 17, 2025, 02:49 PM
Nov 17

But if one Bates number itself is deleted,would all the rest need to be changed upon deletion of said Bates number?
Or,if deleted more than once,wouldn't all subsequent page numbers also required to be changed?
Rather like a domino effec?

2na fisherman

(215 posts)
11. Nice Pun
Mon Nov 17, 2025, 03:19 PM
Nov 17

And this would involve some self-abuse of the files. But seriously, the massive amount of lies by omission coming from this regime and its legal representatives scoffs at "Candor To The Tribunal" as a professional duty required by lawyers--essentially an oath they take not to lie. Many must be sanctioned by state bar associations and investigated for possible disbarment for being parties to evidence tampering.

SunSeeker

(57,433 posts)
14. Electronic documents can be renumbered.
Mon Nov 17, 2025, 03:54 PM
Nov 17

It's not like the old days when they actually used a Bates stamper to physically put numbers on hard copies of documents.





BUT, many of these documents are out there and have been seen by many people after years of litigation. If specific docs coming out of DOJ suddenly have different Bates numbers than they did previously, we will know they are tampering with docs.

Orrex

(66,584 posts)
19. "For the benefit of the court, would you please explain time code?"
Thu Nov 20, 2025, 06:20 AM
Nov 20

From a classic film drama.

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