I do not worship the ground our military walks on

[Taverner]

I am no crying eagle...

I think when you murder somebody you did wrong, whether it was your idea or your superior officer's

I think when we see Abu Ghraib pictures, we are seeing the tip of the iceberg

And I do not think the soldiers were tricked into doing all that - they enjoyed it. They said so. And they still wonder, to this day, what they did wrong.

I think EVERY DAMN WAR since Korea has been a war crime.

I do not salute murderous generals when they pass

I do not think our military should be as big as it is

I do not think we need bases in Germany, Scotland or Diego Garcia

Do I support the troops? Hell no. Unless that support is for the military closing the doors, turning off the light and going home.

[RomneyLies]

1. .

[GoneOffShore]

265. Exactly as expected. n/t

[msongs]

2. military people have a huge sense of entitlement. have many chats with military types and

they tend to hate all those "welfare" types living off the taxpayers. yet when you point out that THEY are living off the taxpayers they get angry

[shintao]

40. LOL! Many of them are on welfare to survive

[cliffordu]

97. Liar.

You don't have a fucking clue about what veterans think or believe.

[Logical]

200. LOL, yes, because only you do. And no veteran has EVER said what he said they did. n-t

[Aerows]

219. When you risk life and limb

in service to your country, you have the right to diss service members. If you haven't, then you don't have the right to comment on someone else's honorable service.

[AldoLeopold]

228. BULLSHIT

You do your country and the legacy of the military a disservice by saying something like that. You raise yourself to a different class above civilians and THIS is expressly against everything the United States military stands for.

You are here to SERVE. That is all. It is difficult, it is honorable - but you are here to SERVE the people of the United States. Why don't you call yourself Centurion, or Caesar? Fuck you and the horse you rode in on. If we choose to criticize your service and your purpose then you WILL listen and you will take heed. The days of a separate military class, immune from criticism aside from amongst themselves died a very long time ago.

[L0oniX]

235. +1

[Aerows]

254. That goes for you, as well n/t

[L0oniX]

257. LMAO n/t

[Aerows]

252. it is good to know

who has rational thinking and cares about American politics on an American political message board, and who doesn't.

[AldoLeopold]

260. A vague, if not cryptic response

[link:|

[Vattel]

307. well-said

[PavePusher]

388. Everyone is entitled to their opinion.

And that opinion will be judged against the backgrounds of both the opinionator and the judge.

Not all opinions carry equal weight, nor should they.

Some are as valuble as a fart in an elevator.

[Puregonzo1188]

239. When was the last time anyone risked life and limb to serve their country?

World War II?

Than again maybe your definition of serving your country is different than mine.

[NYC_SKP]

225. ...many chats with military types...

Thus, an expert.



In case I never have mentioned it, thank you for your service, cliffordu.

[RomneyLies]

272. You and I rarely agree

On this, it appears, we are of a same mind.

[Egalitarian Thug]

243. Liar. Apparently neither do you.

I'll compare service records, both person and familial, with you any day. You know as well as I do that what he said is true far more often that either of us would like to admit.

[H2O Man]

281. Respectfully disagree.

First, I was on the "jury" that evaluated his response, after someone alerted on it. I voted to leave it alone. The OP & thread contain a lot of emotionally charged comments, and in these instances, DU isn't a pillow fight. People tend to speak angrily.

More, over the years, I've had opportunity to talk with Cliff about a wide range of issues. Sometimes we agree, sometimes we disagree. But I can say that, without question, he has impressed me as one of the most honest and honorable people I've "met" -- here or anywhere.

[Egalitarian Thug]

290. OK, I wrote a whole thing in reply, but it seems everybody got juried out of the thread,

so it would serve no good purpose to post it.

[H2O Man]

329. I had read the OP

shortly after it was posted. I had a feeling that it would result in hostility on the thread.

[lonestarnot]

302. :)

LOL

[2ndAmForComputers]

399. Not a liar.

From personal experience, I can say what msong said is correct.

[DissidentVoice]

402. What he said.

You're right, because not all veterans think or believe alike!

People too often wrongly assume that because I served I must be a right-wing Republican...when I tell them my views I usually get looks of disbelief.

[OldDem2012]

107. Oh, bull. nt.

[Berserker]

111. You should

crawl under a fucking rock with that attitude.

[MADem]

133. I spent a long, full career in the military, and your bigoted statements do not reflect my views

in the slightest.

George McGovern was a "war hero." So were John Kerry, JFK, Max Cleland and Tammy Duckworth.

But gee, call 'em ALL a bunch of entitled, angry moochers.

Put away the broad brush--you're making a real mess.

[jody]

141. I endorse MADem's post nt

[Skip Intro]

193. Second. nt

[Aerows]

216. Add another supporter

This entire thread is absurd and the idea that we have people here that actively wish to work against the members of our military makes me ashamed.

[DevonRex]

283. Hear hear!

Thanks for this.

[Coyote_Tan]

145. Really?

You see no difference between welfare recipients, who receive payment for their non working status and people who are on call 365 and place their lives on the line to advance the interests of the
nation I assume you to currently be inhabiting and enjoying?

Doesn't add up...

[sendero]

299. While I do not disrespect the soldiers..

.. most of whom do a difficult job for very little recompense, the military overall is nothing but a money machine for the connected. We have not fought a just and necessary war since 1945 and that is a fact.

It is not the soldiers' fault but it IS the fault of the leadership who will not only allow politicians with ulterior motives to send them off to pointless wars but will actively collaborate in such misadventures and continually promise what they can not deliver.

Like health care, this country spends twice what it should be on defense. And that is all set up to enrich a few connected people.

[moman]

327. This says it all

Totally agree with these sentiments.

[SammyWinstonJack]

378. As do I.

[Go Vols]

335. +1

[roguevalley]

207. msongs, given that they make shit for going off to die in oil wars and come back

broken only to see Vet bills killed by repukes in congress, I would say you need to talk to more people.

E5-sargent makes between 15-27K for a year.
E3-private 16-21K

They come back blasted, we owe them a recovery. I don't know where you get your info. We have a butt load of bases up here in Alaska and I know a butt load of soldiers and airmen on food stamps. They don't get dick when they come back, their unemployment is off the hook. They don't get a job's bill because the refucks don't care about them when they get broken. They only like the wars so their stock portfolios can get a work out. Really, I am not sure where you go to talk but you need to talk to soldiers face to face. They get $225.00 a month to get shot at in a war zone. BIG MONEY!

[Egalitarian Thug]

245. You're absolutely right. And that's the heart of the BIG ISSUE.

I fully expect to be juried off this thread, so I wanted this reply to get in before that happens.

[Lady Freedom Returns]

226. Not all vets are like that.

They are as different as those on this site. Grouping people in lumps is a bad habit to get into. And it is getting very bad around here lately.

[Egalitarian Thug]

246. Not all, but far too many. n/t

[PavePusher]

387. With the difference being that military people perform a valuble service for their "entitlement".

We go to some horrible places, under terrible conditions, and follow the orders that the people you elected give us.

Change the orders.

May I ask what your primary income source is?

[Egalitarian Thug]

397. You have yet to name a single valuable service. You have described an ill-conceived jobs program

but have not identified this valued service.

I'll be waiting...

[PavePusher]

406. Sorry, I won't play your stupid game.

Have a great night.

[Egalitarian Thug]

408. No, of course you won't. That would be beneath a brave, self sacrificing hero like you, wouldn't it?

Just come in and spam the thread with non sequiturs and pseudo-patriotic bullshit and then hide behind your brave service.

[jody]

3. OK you don't like the military but don't use special cases to disparage all who serve unless you've

marched in their boots.

The right to speak freely as you just did was earned by those who served and hundreds of millions who supported their effort with work in so many industries, agriculture, et al.

Enjoy freedom of speech earned by those who fought and died to preserve so you could vilify them.

[RomneyLies]

5. You and I don't agree on much

but we definitely agree on this.

[Scuba]

317. Snort.

[byeya]

8. J*** you are truly full of shit. Freedom of speech dates to the heroic founding fathers and all the

recent militarism you love so much has come at the same time as the erosion of many of our guarantees under the Bill of Rights.

900+ days without a trial for Bradley Manning.

Renditions and torture.

Spying on Americans in America without judicial review.

[hobbit709]

12. The founding fathers pledged "their lives, their fortunes and their sacred honor"

what have you pledged outside of being online?

[jody]

13. Another naysayer who never served enjoys freedoms protected by our military. nt

[bahrbearian]

20. LOL Exactly what Freedoms are you talking about?

Thats like saying we need to invade another country to make us safe.

[jody]

56. "what Freedoms"? If you need an answer then you either haven't graduate from elementary school or

didn't pay attention in your American History courses in higher classes or are not a citizen of these United States.

[alarimer]

79. The Big Lie is that war is about "protecting our freedoms."

No, it's usually been about protecting our national interests.

The single exception was WWII. I'll grant that. But nowadays no one joins the military to protect "freedoms" whatever that means. They join to earn a skill or paycheck or whatever. Nothing wrong with that, but we really shouldn't put these people up on a pedestal. I think firefighters, for instance, are by and large much more heroic than anyone in the military, on a daily basis.

I think teachers are heroic in many circumstances.

In any case, we have been the aggressor since at least 1945.

Elevating the military to exalted status just reeks of the fading Roman Empire.

[jody]

83. If you have a problem with any war, blame civilians appointed over the military, and voters who

elected them, not the military.

[Puregonzo1188]

241. Of course, because they are just following orders?

[jody]

250. Have you ever served in a combat theater? nt

[Puregonzo1188]

325. Have you ever lived in a country that was being militarily occupied or carpet bombed by a larger

power?

[ashling]

113. our national interests.

or what some corporation or other interest group has convinced the "powers that be" are in our national interest.

[AldoLeopold]

236. Agreed

Vietnam, Grenada, Gulf War I and II, Afghanistan - have all been an exercise in greed and fear - greed on the part of the the politicians and the corps, and fear, on the part of our idiotic population.

[bahrbearian]

86. Well I'm still waiting on an Answer. I am certainly not the brightess ,maybe you could enlighten me

without the insults.

[jody]

89. See #56 nt

[bahrbearian]

100. Oh I get it, you fought to protect the freedom of insulting peoples Intelligence.

I never read that in the Constitution.

Post # 56
"what Freedoms"? If you need an answer then you either haven't graduate from elementary school or

didn't pay attention in your American History courses in higher classes or are not a citizen of these United States.

[roody]

123. I teach elementary school and the

history taught there is a lie.

[jody]

137. I'm not a historian but my experience is many K-12 schools are failing in teaching math. The number

of students entering college needing remedial math is absolutely disgusting.

If that's any indication of college preparation in other areas then our nation has major problems with education.

[AldoLeopold]

242. It does

Just got my 2nd bachelors in Environmental Science - very calc/algebra/stat heavy, and it was like the whole class every time had to be dumbed down to get some of our younger students to even comprehend what was going on. The teachers had to spell out how to manipulate equations and frequently had to give the exact equation just so most of the 18 - 21 year olds could get along.

I'll tell you the truth, I'm seeking employment overseas, and I'm likely to get it. I'm in an "every man for himself mode" these days, and if Americans can't get their heads out of their butts long enough to realize they're about to get it handed to them on a silver platter, that's not really my problem.

My mother teaches at a rich high school in Dallas, TX, and you should have seen the size of their football stadium. I asked her over the holidays what kind of science labs they had - that they could have bought several plasma spectrometers for the price of that monstrosity and she looked at me like I was insane - she just said "well, football is religion around here."

So fuck it, for every fool who is passed along in k-12, that's just another job opportunity for me. We'll just see how well a high school football star gets along in the new economies.

[KansDem]

314. Good luck!

I'm seeking employment overseas, and I'm likely to get it. I'm in an "every man for himself mode" these days...

I've considered the same thing, but since I turn 60 next month, I'm not sure I'd be successful. I'm now toying with the idea of retiring overseas and have looked at Mexico, as my "retirement" will be such that I don't believe I'll be able to stay in the US.

But I understand the "every man for himself" mode. I never thought I'd be considering such a move having grown up in the USA, but now reality trumps patriotism and I'm keeping all options open.

[mokawanis]

284. I need an answer

What freedoms of mine, or any US citizen, are being protected by fighting wars in Iraq and Afghanistan?

Would my right to free speech somehow be diluted or taken away if we hadn't invaded those countries?

[arely staircase]

371. you (we) elect the people who send them there

so yeah, you owe them. i know, i didn't vote for those people either but they are our elections and the winners are our leaders and they are our soldiers.

[Hugabear]

386. How many times in American history has our freedom been truly "threatened"

You can count them up on one hand.

[UnrepentantLiberal]

115. Hell yeah!

Here are some others who did and didn't serve.

http://www.awolbush.com/whoserved.html

[a11ig8r]

323. Cite specific examples of "freedoms protected by our military"

Go ahead, I'm waiting and I'm sick of this shit. You can't can you? Because those are empty words, empty rhetoric that mean zero, absolutely zero, just like the value of your posts.

[OneMoreDemocrat]

18. The Bill of Rights would have been tough to write if British troops were all up in their face...

BUT, 'cause of a bunch of heroic Military-types...they weren't.

[white_wolf]

21. So much bullshit in this post.

The military hasn't fought any wars even remotely related to defending our 'freedoms" since WWII. Every war since then has been fought to defend corporate profits and power. If I want to thank someone for defending my freedoms I'll send a nice check to the ACLU and National Lawyers Guilds. They do better work than our military anyday.

[jody]

24. I was an ACLU member for decades stopping only when it opposed SCOTUS on the Second Amendment.

ACLU position on DC v Heller for one simple reason, ACLU ignores the constitutions of PA(1776) & VT(1777) that acknowledged RKBA for self-defense as one of the "natural, inherent, and inalienable/unalienable rights" that SCOTUS acknowledged in UNITED STATES v. CRUIKSHANK (1876) pre-existed our Constitution and the First, Second, and Fourth did not depend upon it.

[Egalitarian Thug]

273. And every war before that, except possibly, the American Civil war.

There's another thread (sinking fast I'm sure) about General Butler, America's greatest military hero. Almost universally unknown.

He realized that all he had done was a crime and had the temerity to day so.

[KansDem]

318. Do you remember the 1976 TV show "City of Angels?"

Starring Wayne Rogers of "M*A*S*H?"

It was based on the movie "Chinatown" starring Jack Nicholson.

The first three episodes, called "The November Plan" centered on the "alleged" plot to overthrow FDR. Lloyd Nolan played Gen. Butler.

I enjoyed the show but it only lasted one season:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/City_of_Angels_(1976_TV_series)
(Click on link under "Television&quot

The three-part pilot episode, “The November Plan,” was based on a notorious 1933 American conspiracy known as the Business Plot, which involved wealthy businessmen trying to bring down United States President Franklin D. Roosevelt in a coup.

I thought it was pretty-good and wondered why it was so short-lived. Maybe "The November Plan" struck a little too close for "certain circles," even after 43 years?


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/City_of_Angels_(1976_TV_series)

[catnhatnh]

23. "Hundreds of millions who supported their efforts...

...with work in so many industries and agriculture"??? We called those civilians-must we worship them too? All Hail Cesar Chavez and the lettuce pickers? If I recall correctly, those who died in the agricultural industries were tomatoes and brussel sprouts. You need to chill-he does have the right to free speech and as a vet I agree with many of his points.

[jody]

25. I was a child in WWII and my experience is different from what you recall from second hand tales

told by historical revisionists.

You need to take a handful of chill suppositories.

[catnhatnh]

29. Why Jody-if I didn't know better I'd think...

...you were telling me to stuff it up my ass. That would be a very uncouth thing to do to a fellow veteran. Tell me about your service.

[jody]

49. You stated you were a "fellow veteran". Regale us with tales of battlefield heroics and nominations

for the MOH downgraded to service stateside during peacetime.

[catnhatnh]

68. Actually, stateside wartime...

F co. 704 Maint. Bat. 4th ID Ft Carson, Colorado 72-73. 43 Bravo aircraft component repair. Your turn?

[jody]

71. Vietnam 1966 and again 1969. nt

[catnhatnh]

76. Well, if you liked having helicopters nearby...

...then you were depending on guys like me....

[jody]

80. Agree as I stated elsewhere. Don't understand #23 unless you had an unfortunate military service? nt

[catnhatnh]

104. No, it was a great base and a soft assignment...

...even in Vietnam the "tooth to tail" logistics trail was nearly 10 to 1. So even of the 2.5 million who served in country only about 250 thousand were what the civilians picture as "combat troops". I get embarrassed when people find out I served and thank me. I worked 9-5 and we had beer machines in the barracks...

On the other hand a family member IS a combat vet and a survivor of LZ X-Ray with the 101st and he is owed some respect for that. But even he finds military worship disturbing. Your must remember that extolling all veterans include us clerks and jerks and the fortunate sons like George W. who hid in the guard...

As pointed out by others, I also respect more those drafted into the war who performed honorably in spite of coercion. I cannot respect the military brass who supported multiple wars based on phony intelligence. The only two examples of truly honorable commanders I can think of offhand are Butler and Hackworth with an honorable mention for Hal Moore.

In short most vets gain my sympathy but do not earn my blanket endorsement. It's time to reduce our forces to a defense posture and not an empire enabler.

[pangaia]

117. Thanks for your reply

Last edited Sat Dec 29, 2012, 01:01 AM - Edit history (1)

LZ-Xray.. Wow. I am impressed, having only read Hal Moore's book....
I have a dear friend who was only on a hospital ship off DaNang-- Just that and he still suffers from PTSD...Terrible...

[catnhatnh]

129. Actually I misposted...

it was not Xray (which he had been to) but FB Ripcord in 1970...http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/101st_Airborne_Division

He was Bco 1/506th

[Joey Liberal]

85. Thank you for your service, jody!

I was too young to have served in Vietnam, but I was lucky enough to have served with many grunts who walked point in the jungles when they were young Soldiers.

[jody]

98. Those young, naive grunts whether volunteer or draftee, who obeyed Johnson and Nixon elected

to be Commander in Chief, are the real heroes.

We all took an oath:

do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God." (Title 10, US Code; Act of 5 May 1960 replacing the wording first adopted in 1789, with amendment effective 5 October 1962).

Sad that some DUers in this thread condemn past presidents but skip over Obama.

[Berserker]

118. Thank You

fellow vet for your service. Entered in 1969 here. This thread is bullshit is this what the Democrat party is now.

[bahrbearian]

160. If you want a Pro-War party join the Repubican Party.

[Aerows]

227. That doesn't mean

that the Democratic party has to turn into the pro-asshole towards veterans party. I will resist that with all of my being, and if you can't hide your disdain for the military, you are probably better off finding a place among Republicans that offer lip-service but little else.

[a11ig8r]

322. All of your being, really?

That's a bit over the top don't you think, especially when typed while seated.

[bahrbearian]

380. No I have no disdain for the Military

I'm quite acquainted with the MIC ,I've made a lot of money working with their Officers and their Defense projects.. Navy-Marine Internet.(waste of Money) F-22, (Waste of More Money), Future Combat Systems, (On going Joke except for the people in their gun sights) I have disdain for people telling me that they are fighting for my freedoms and are keeping America Safe because of their Sacrifices. The Draft Dodgers of the 60's served their country , but you never hear anyone say to them thank-you for your service.

[Aerows]

232. No, it isn't

This looks like a bunch of shit-stirring to make Democrats look bad. My fellow Democrats are as supportive of our military as anyone else is. Republicans hate that we are present and accounted for in our military, because it weakens their argument that liberals don't give a shit about national defense.

[PeaceNikki]

233. "the Democrat party"? That's usually a 'tell'...

[Aerows]

237. This entire thread

Is bullshit piled high and knee deep. It's designed to make Democrats seem like they could give a fuck about the military and national security, when that is the exact opposite of the opinions of most in the Democratic party.

I have family members currently serving, and those that served with honor. I don't give a fuck if someone says that serving in the military is a bad thing, and generally regard people who say so as below contempt.

When you shed blood voluntarily for our nation, you deserve my respect. Period.

[PeaceNikki]

247. You have the right to those feelings and they (in theory) fight for his right to have his.

Move on.

My grandpa volunteered for the Army and fought in WWII when he was 30. I respect him. I hate what it's become and we're not at war for our nation anymore. Sending men and women into the territories they go into now isn't keeping you or I free or safe. And it's fucking up their heads. They have to see atrocities and horror and are not properly cared for as PEOPLE because the military treats them like weapons.

They come home and snap - committing suicide at horrific rates, shooting up Sikh Temples, beauty salons and their wives faces.

And that's bullshit.

[Bonobo]

297. "Democrat Party" -Ooops! Watching a bit too much Fox News, I think. nt

[Medical Speaking]

300. Vietnam 1966-1967

[jody]

355. 1966 Cam Ranh Bay was still mostly sand and runways were PSP. Memories oh those memories

[a11ig8r]

26. Excuse me

Are you saying that our unalienable rights are granted to us by those in uniform? Because that sure is what it sounds like.

[jody]

38. LOL I'm not an expert but see

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=2980285&mesg_id=2981257

[a11ig8r]

43. Clearly you are not.

[jody]

51. Thanks. nt

[ChisolmTrailDem]

35. Please explain exactly which war was fought

specifically to protect our freedom of speech or any other freedoms we enjoy as Americans. And if you can name one, please explain exactly how our rights were threatened by a foreign power.

And in case you want to cite Japan's attack on Pearl Harbor, explain how exactly Japan was determined to achieve such a feat as re-writing our Constitution.

No war since the Revolutionary War has been fought specifically to protect our freedoms. And at the time of that war it was a war of independence and the Bill of Rights didn't exist yet.

[jody]

39. LOL apparently you didn't take an American History course in K-12 or learn anything if you did. nt

[ChisolmTrailDem]

47. Apparently you can't answer the question without attacking me whom

you know NOTHING about.

[bahrbearian]

50. But, But, They are heros protecting our Freedoms, can't you see that.

Protecting our Freedoms.. Support the Troops,,, Protecting our freedoms,, its a broken record.

[ChisolmTrailDem]

58. Jody's post below (#53) I think belongs to you. I thought you deserved the opportunity to respond.

Sounds like he was attempting to respond to your post and clicked reply to me instead.

He still has not answered my question.

[bahrbearian]

67. Thats too funny,, but I guess someone with all that fancy K-12 book learning

doesn't really need to answer questions from us.

[ChisolmTrailDem]

73. Scampered away with his tail between his legs too, defeated and pwned. Doesn't exhibit

much character at all the way he just says "Goodbye" after insulting and attacking me an not answering my initial question.

At least I know that one's character now.

[bahrbearian]

93. Plainly it seems that a War Hero doesn't have to answer questions from those he perceives

as not having Served Their country.

[a11ig8r]

72. "Support the Troops" is an empty meaningless phrase.

And that's the intention.

[L0oniX]

140. ...

[jody]

53. My reply to #35 was to it and had nothing to do with you. nt

[ChisolmTrailDem]

57. So, now you're calling me "it"? And you still have not answered my question. And...

you attempted to insult/attack me when, as far as I know, this is our first encounter and you know NOTHING about me, my knowledge of history, or anything else about me.

I asked a direct question. I did not attack you. I did not snark you. I did not insult you. I asked a question. Why are you attacking me? Can you or can you not answer the question?

[jody]

59. See #35. That's all I have to say about that. nt

[ChisolmTrailDem]

61. Because that's all you CAN say. You attacked me for no reason. Why? Are you not man

enough to engage in civil discourse?

Also, post #35 is MY post. Are you intoxicated?

[jody]

63. Goodbye nt

[uppityperson]

75. Here is the text of post #35

Please explain exactly which war was fought

Last edited Fri Dec 28, 2012, 03:25 PM USA/ET - Edit history (1)

specifically to protect our freedom of speech or any other freedoms we enjoy as Americans. And if you can name one, please explain exactly how our rights were threatened by a foreign power.

And in case you want to cite Japan's attack on Pearl Harbor, explain how exactly Japan was determined to achieve such a feat as re-writing our Constitution.

No war since the Revolutionary War has been fought specifically to protect our freedoms. And at the time of that war it was a war of independence and the Bill of Rights didn't exist yet.

[Separation]

415. Ill guarentee you one thing.

The ACLU and draft dodgers aren't keeping Canada, Mexico, or anyone else from laying dibs.

Sorry but the Atlantic and Pacific Ocean isn't a big enough deterent from keeping anyone walking in and laying claim as well. You think it's because of good manners and love? No, it's because we would smash their head in, take their girlfriend, and crap in their coffee cup, and then draw a big ol penis on their forehead while they were passed out.

Do I expect accolades or praise for what I do? No more than the average person at his or her job, and gets an atta boy. I don't ask for military discounts. Are their assholes in the military? Absolutely! No more than there are in civilian life, I'd wager it's statistically the same.

[democrattotheend]

46. Well said, thank you

I believe those who put their lives on the line for this country deserve respect, whether you agree with the policies that sent them to war or not.

[xtraxritical]

126. I think those that enlist are the biggest part of the problem. STOP WARS DON'T ENLIST!

The powers that be want the young to be poor and uneducated, that makes them perfect for the military. I have no respect for enlistees.

[stevenleser]

370. Right, blame 18-21 year old kids instead of the people who vote warlike leaders into office.

I can tell you didnt spend an adequate amount of time thinking about that one.

[PavePusher]

389. That piece-of-shit post needs to be deleted. n/t

[Egalitarian Thug]

395. Why? You make a condemnation of another person's opinion with nothing to back it up.

There is no denying that without duping or coercing young people into risking their lives for little return, the military cannot exist. So, what's your point?

[roody]

121. Which US war was fought for

my freedom of speech?

[Taverner]

158. Do I have the right to condemn a seriak killer even if I have never killed?

Seriously, this whole "you don't deserve to be in this discussion" BS is anti-Democratic

[jody]

166. First admit you condemn all who serve for deeds of a commander in chief

and a few O-10 officers. You add red herrings, criminals convicted under the UCMJ, that no way justify your vilification of all troops.

You may as well condemn George Washington and all who served in our War for Independence including my ancestor a Captain, for the actions of Benedict Arnold.

A simple apology for your post is in order but I doubt you have the guts to admit your wrong.

[Taverner]

167. Why would I apologize to you?

Why would I apologize to the highly trained killers we have produced?

Want to see what your PROUD AMERICANS (sniff sniff) get to do every day?

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_7Bqr1I5gzyk/SeleeMSaXFI/AAAAAAAADSU/5wtWahcZla0/s400/a+cluster+bomb+children.jpg

That is a baby who was killed by our cluster bombs.

Why do people hate America so much? Hmmm...no idea...

Oh, that baby had it coming. I know they did!

No - you apologize for shutting down any criticism of our troops.

You apologize for carrying the water for highly trained killers.

You can always refuse orders.

If soldiers had any decency, they would refuse en masse.

[jody]

174. Thanks for revealing your true character for all to see. You have your supporters but they are a

minority.

They always cry for someone else to fight and die while they cower.

Always been like that and may always be.

Talkers and takers versus doers and givers.

They always reveal their true nature by deeds committed or omitted.

[Taverner]

175. Or you are one of the many sock puppets that have joined as of late

Not saying you are, but a whole lot of these Rambo-wanna-bes have 3K, 2K maybe 1K posts behind them

None of them are donors

Yeah, every party has it's crazies. And you're one of them!

You still think these wars about defending freedom.

THAT is how I know you're crazy.

[jody]

196. Have you ever read the Democratic Party Platform? Nine pages that include "President Obama and the

Democratic Party know that there is no greater responsibility than protecting the American people. We also understand the indispensable role that the United States must continue to play in promoting international peace and prosperity. And because of the steps we have taken, the United States is leading once again, and America is safer, stronger, and more secure than it was four years ago."

And

"Maintaining the Strongest Military in the World
America’s unrivaled military capabilities represent a second core pillar of our global leadership. After more than a decade of war, we have an opportunity to retool our armed forces and our defense strategy to ensure we both maintain the world’s most capable military and adapt to the challenges of the 21st century."

Obama and Democrat Hawks are not much different than the other party. In fact together they form bipartisan support to pass bills that support the military-industrial complex and signed by Democratic Presidents.

Why would anyone want to target an E-1 when its the Commander in Chief and O-10s who take us to war.

[xtraxritical]

253. Yep, pomp n' circumstance, medals, and faux heroism for cannon fodder.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

319. I never cried for someone else to fight. I want NO ONE to fight

unless it's for actual defensive purposes,

NOT to secure resources or cheap labor for corporations

NOT to intervene in other countries' internal affairs

NOT to do other countries' dirty work for them

NOT to indulge a president's ego

[jody]

330. Understand but you have a problem with presidents and congress appointed over our military.

IMO its misguided to blame the "military" which includes E-1 to O-10 for decisions of elected officials.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

331. But there's a whole cabal of military contractors and Pentagon officials who justify their existence

by convincing or bribing Congress and presidents to act against "enemies."

I'm NOT BLAMING the individual soldiers. I just think that there's no heroism in fighting for unjust causes, no matter what the recruiters, the trainers, or the soldiers themselves say.

That being said, the soldiers who just follow orders are just following orders.

The real heroes are the ones who refuse to obey immoral orders. One of the great heroes of the Vietnam War was a man who shot himself in the foot so that he would be incapable of carrying out the order to massacre the village of My Lai.

Do you remember what a big fan club Lt. Calley had when he was on trial? How many people said that he should be decorated instead of court-martialed? How many people said that killing the children of My Lai was the right thing to do because "they would only have grown up to be Communists anyway"?

[jody]

334. Several posts in this thread did blame "the individual soldiers". I object to that and that has been

my intent in every post I made in this thread.

Blame the Commander in Chief and O-10s.

It's just disingenuous or worse to expect an 18 year old troop to make moral distinctions, question an order under combat stress, disobey, and face court martial.

That's why I asked posters critical of our military if they've ever been in combat.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

337. So "going along" is the default mode

not heroism. Did you ever see Gwynne Dwyer's PBS series "War"? One episode covered basic training, portraying basic training at a U.S. army base, and Dwyer, a Canadian, said that it was exactly the same as the basic training he had experienced in the Canadian army. The reason that most countries draft at age 18, he said, is that young men at that age are both at the peak of their physical strength and extremely insecure and susceptible to peer pressure. So going into battle is not heroism if your main motivation is not to look like a wuss in front of your equally terrified comrades.

Heroism is the unarmed medic who ministers to the wounded in the battlefield. It's the soldier who disobeys an unlawful order. Heroism is the Bradley Mannings who say, "This makes me sick, and I have to try to stop it, no matter what the personal cost."

My father was a conscientious objector during World War II, but he didn't get off easy. He and others like him, mostly Quakers, Mennonites, and Jehovah's Witnesses, were subjected to medical experiments that could have killed them, including starvation, prolonged sleep deprivation, and being purposely infected with various diseases. To be known as a conscientious objector during and immediately after a popular war wasn't easy, either.

[jody]

353. You know I didn't propose "going along". I repeat "Blame the Commander in Chief and O-10s." nt

[Logical]

201. So no one can complain about the military unless they have been in the military? really?

[jody]

206. You know I didn't say that so I won't answer. nt

[theKed]

301. If you're not going to answer

then don't fucking answer.

[Skittles]

4. let me guess: you never served

[AnotherMcIntosh]

101. John Wayne never served.

Dick Cheney never served.

And, of course, there are many more.

[cliffordu]

106. A group of Vietnam Veterans in wheelchairs wanted to meet with

John Wayne in 1968 during the Republican National Convention...

John Wayne took a long draw on his cigarette and said:

"Aw, Hell..."

And walked off.

Fuck John Wayne's dead corpse with a Turducken.

[AnotherMcIntosh]

125. I'm not surprised.

[cliffordu]

102. I'd bet some skin that weak ass never served anything

but him/her self.

[Logical]

202. What difference does that make? I have never been a cop either. Can I complain about them?? n-t

[Skittles]

292. it makes a huge difference in the way you "complain"

whether or not you sound like a complete asshole

[TreasonousBastard]

306. That kinda sums up this whole thread, doesn't it?

[byeya]

6. Great post Taverner. The cult of the veteran is abominable unless that vet was a draftee.

The recent enlistees knew they were getting into illegal unethical wars.

[xtraxritical]

262. Youth, poor and not very educated, that's what the military needs.

[ornotna]

7. Bless your heart!

[OneTenthofOnePercent]

9. Your right to sit there and openly disparage our nations troops...

has been fought for and paid in blood by our troops throughout our nation's history. I'm glad you're enjoying/using the rights they've secured for us... otherwise they all might have died in vein.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

15. None of the wars after Korea (and maybe not even that) were fought to "secure our rights"

If you look closely, they were fought out of economic interests and ideological fanaticism and the notion that the U.S. somehow has the right to control other countries.

If you believe that Vietnam or the Afghanistan or Iraq Wars or the interventions in Central America and Grenada were fought "to secure our rights" or even to "bring freedom," then you don't know your history but have swallowed basic training propaganda.

[OneMoreDemocrat]

19. I agree...

but the wars prior to Korea are enough for me; especially the Revolutionary one.

Everything after that though we could have stayed home.

[Taverner]

186. Most of those veterans are now dead

[jmg257]

30. Dont't forget the Indian, Spanish American or Philipines wars. Arian conquest plain and simple. nt

[Coyote_Tan]

147. All debatable points...

The simple fact is that if there was no military someone else would be in place of the US govt and odds are you wouldn't enjoy the freedom you do now.

[Taverner]

195. "Debateable"?????? How is Grenada "debatable"?

[Lydia Leftcoast]

261. No military response was necessary to any of those situations

Grenada was getting uppity, wanting to process its own fruit and spice crops instead of exporting raw materials and then having to re-import things like orange juice and nutmeg made from its own crops. They wanted to develop their own tourist industry, which was what the airport was for.

Reagan LIED when he said that the Cubans were building the airport so that the Russians could have a base near the U.S. Grenada wanted an airport capable of handling jumbo jets full of tourists, something that many other Caribbean islands have.

The U.S. intervened in Guatemala in 1954, overthrowing a democratically elected president whose "crime" was to annoy the United Fruit Company. After that, Guatemala suffered through more than 30 years of dictatorial thugs.

Later, when rebels in Guatemala, El Salvador, and Nicaragua began rebelling against the horrible human rights abuses and economic injustices in those countries (basically, they were right-wing libertarian paradises: almost no regulations on the private sector or public services), the U.S. screeched "Communism!" and intervened on the side of the dictatorial thugs in Guatemala and El Salvador. I have spoken with someone who was one of the American "advisers," and he was so full of remorse for what he had done that he could barely talk about it. When the Nicaraguan rebels succeeded in overthrowing their dictatorial thugs, the U.S. did everything it could to thwart them and make sure that their revolution failed.

The U.S. and Britain (another country that has more military might than sense at times) overthrew Mossadegh, the democratically elected leader of Iran in the 1950s and put the Shah on the throne. Most people don't know that the Shah was no long-standing traditional dynastic figure but the son of some army officer who had proclaimed himself Shah. But the Shah played nice with the oil companies, while Mossadegh wanted to nationalize them, so the hell with what the Iranian people wanted.

We're supposed to be all delighted that the U.S. overthrew the Taliban, but guess where the Taliban came from. They're one faction of the anti-Soviet forces that the U.S. armed and trained beginning to fight the homegrown Marxists in the summer of 1979, before the Russians even arrived. The Soviet advance into Afghanistan in December 1979 was no invasion; the revolutionary government actually invited them in to suppress the rebels who were fighting for the "freedom" to keep women and girls veiled and illiterate against attempts to legislate compulsory education and women's rights.

After the Russians left in 1989, the various factions of the Afghan rebels fought for control of the country. The CIA favored the Taliban, because they were the best disciplined faction.

I suggest you do a little reading, especially Jonathan Kwitny's book Endless Enemies. Kwitny was a reporter for the Wall Street Journal, but he was appalled at the utter stupidity of American interventions.

U.S. interventions in Latin America and the Middle East are not something to be proud of. They are something to be ashamed of.

[earthside]

31. Rights THEY'VE Secured for Us?

Whoa.

That is not American.

The Declaration of independence doesn't say anything about our rights being granted to us by a military force.

Nor does the Constitution make any such reference.

You can be pro-military ... but have some perspective. We are free because of a lot of different Americans doing a lot of different things.

In fact, I would put the military quite a ways down on the list of important individuals and groups that have done heroic things to secure our way of life.

A whole history full of laborers ... farmers and factory workers ... sadly indentured servants and slaves ... explorers and pioneers ... small business owners and religious leaders ... on and on and on.

George Washington and his comrades warned about a standing army with good cause and we should never forget his admonition. In fact, in my estimation, for the every 'positive' the U.S. military did for the country, there are at least two of three bad consequences.

[MessiahRp]

293. Thank you for this post.

There is this line we probably should draw here. What happened to Vietnam Vets when they came back and were treated with disdain, well that seemed to burn into our collective psyche and now we have this incredible need for hero worship with our troops as we make them out to be infallible.

I define my thoughts on the military like this:

I despise war but I hate the politicians that force it to happen.

I despise war criminals in the military and think no amount of stress or PTSD should shield you from being charged for abuse or murder if you step over the line.

I have personally found a lot of military members I have run into to be very right wing, I think that is because Armed Forces Radio brainwashes soldiers with Right Wing Radio and then commanding officers are forcing right wing evangelism onto soldiers as well. That pisses me off.

I don't hate the soldier but I don't think they are angels that deserve protection from criticism and when warranted criminal probes.

And this whole thing about somehow the military being the reason we have rights? Total bullshit. Thomas Jefferson would be puking with utter disgust if he heard that. The Revolutionary War was the one and only time we fought for rights. Everything since has been based around financial interests, yes even the Civil War. That's not defending freedom. That's being a personal police force for the wealthy elite.

[L0oniX]

87. Military grunt psych.

[RomneyLies]

274. +1,000,000,000,000 n/t

[hobbit709]

10. I don't really worship the ground the military walks on

But then I don't worship the ground you or anyone else walks on either.

[broiles]

11. Our military is incompetent. We've been whipped in Iraq and

now Afghanistan.

[zappaman]

14. It is?

You should join then and make them competent!

[broiles]

221. I would make them even more incompetent. I'm a pacifist.

[jody]

16. Our troops have never lost a war but civilians appointed over them have used them incompetently. nt

[truebluegreen]

45. Nice dodge.

The military have no responsibility whatsoever in losing wars? Even the very recent wars where the civilians supposedly in charge just listened to the generals on the ground? Generals like the sainted--oops, not so much--Petraeus?

[jody]

48. Please study military history. Presidents select generals who will execute his will often to become

scapegoats for a president's failure.

[truebluegreen]

94. What makes you think I haven't?

You go too easy on the military.

That line about only losing wars because of poor civilian leadership? That was always the "hawk" dodge regarding Vietnam. The truth is we lost in Vietnam. Our tactics were wrong, our strategy was wrong and our whole reason for being there was wrong. We wouldn't have been there at all if we--including the generals and the civilian leadership--understood military history, and regional history....if we understood that some wars can't be won by military means*, and many don't need to be fought at all.

Since WWII this country has engaged in a number of "wars" and "police actions" and special ops, and pretty much all of them were short-sighted, unnecessary, expensive and counter-productive. Were you around for the Cuban Missile Crisis? The military brass were chomping at the bit to start a war. Do you think that would have been a good plan?

Fact is, there's plenty of stupidity on both sides of the military/civilian divide. And our military now is far more involved with furthering our corporations' interests, not OURS. And the civilian leadership the same.

*You'd think the PTB would get that since we only won the Revolutionary War by staying-in-the-field-but-not-fighting the greatest military power of the day.

[jody]

128. "What makes you think I haven't?" Because you lump all troops together in your condemnation.

Current active military strength is about 1,458,697.
Active O-10 are about 38

No one below the rank of O-10 has any significant decision authority over military policy and all O-10s are personally selected by a president because she/he will implement without question the policies of the Commander in Chief.

If you want to blame presidents and the O-10s, then come join me and I encourage you to read "Dereliction of Duty : Johnson, McNamara, the Joint Chiefs of Staff, and the Lies That Led to Vietnam"

Just don't blame the troops who obeyed their oath "I will obey the orders of the President of the United States".

[truebluegreen]

176. I lump all troops together?

So do you.

You think they are all heroes, I suppose.

I think they are all human, no better or worse than the rest of us. I don't revere them for their service; I don't despise them either.

I do despise the brass and the neocons who send them off to battle with no more thought than playing with armies in a game of Risk, and probably less.

P.S. A healthy skepticism on all fronts is useful in the study of history. I recommend it.

[jody]

203. "military have no responsibility whatsoever in losing wars?" lumps all from E-1 to O-10 together.

See #166 for one of my posts on ALL military.

[truebluegreen]

383. <snort>

My statement is a generality. A generality means that it applies in general, not universally.

More than that, it's laughable to imply that the military, from generals to enlisted, have NO responsibility in losing wars. Which is what you did.

I think you belong in the class of what I call the Bubbas of the World. Enjoy your stay.

[Puregonzo1188]

249. Wow...that's some rightwing revisionist history there.

Was Vietnam lost by the politicians and the hippies?

[jody]

259. You know I didn't say that. I said presidents and O-10s who did their bidding used our troops

incompetently.

The details of that war have been well documented in many papers and books.

Those who fought that war on the ground, in the air, and brown-water navy understand and those who weren't there will never understand.

[Bluenorthwest]

312. You referred to the Constitutional cornerstone of civilian leadership of the military as civilians

'appointed' to that position, when in fact they are elected to offices which the Constitution of the United States says have control and command of the military. This principle of civilian leadership of the military is basic to our form of government. Those civilians are not 'appointed' they are elected and empowered by the Constitution. To so much as imply otherwise is in my view extreme right wing rhetoric.

[jody]

332. Good point PA(1776) constitution said "XIII. That the people have a right to bear arms for the

defence of themselves and the state; and as standing armies in the time of peace are dangerous to liberty, they ought not to be kept up; And that the military should be kept under strict subordination to, and governed by, the civil power."

Today PA contitution says

Standing Army; Military Subordinate to Civil Power
Section 22.
No standing army shall, in time of peace, be kept up without the consent of the Legislature, and the military shall in all cases and at all times be in strict subordination to the civil power.

I focused on PA and other first constitutions that did not make the clear distinction you made about elected versus appointed.

Our Constitution says in Article I:

To raise and support Armies, but no Appropriation of Money to that Use shall be for a longer Term than two Years;

To provide and maintain a Navy;

To make Rules for the Government and Regulation of the land and naval Forces;

Thanks for clearing that up

[Puregonzo1188]

324. So I guess we should just let the military run the country?

[Joey Liberal]

92. Its not the soldiers who are incompetent

It's their leaders. We have smart soldiers, airmen, sailors and marines in our military. They just don't have good commanders or good senior enlisted leadership.

Look at what happened to Pat Tillman. His chain of command, from platoon to the generals, lied about how he died. Thus is the state of the leadership in our military.

[democrattotheend]

258. But do you blame that on the rank and file soldiers?

I certainly don't. It's the generals who set the on the ground strategy. I have nothing but respect for the soldiers on the front lines.

[broiles]

328. No.

[stevenleser]

374. Really, you mean Saddam Hussein and Mullah Omar won and are in control there?

In terms of Saddam Hussein, I can only guess that means you see dead people.

In terms of Mullah Omar, is he in the capitol of Afghanistan running the state? Funny, I dont think so.

[broiles]

384. We were kicked of Iraq and how

much does the Taliban spend on its military versus the 1 trillion per year we spend. Given how much we budget I would expect better results.

[stevenleser]

385. Using that logic, we were kicked out of Germany and Japan too. Thats ridiculous.

There is no question that we won the war with Iraq. The question of Afghanistan is a little murkier. Of course, our objective was murkier. In Iraq, winning meant toppling Hussein and the Baathists. That is unquestionably done.

[RedCappedBandit]

17. Me neither

Military personnel are just people, no different from the rest of us.

Some do good, some don't, just like the rest of us.

Some enlist to serve their country, some don't.

They're just normal people. Many have earned a certain degree of respect. Then again, so have many civilians. Still, many haven't.

[Gregorian]

22. Right fucking on.

And my dad is a world war two veteran. He isn't proud of it. We don't celebrate Veterans day. And since I can remember, he fumed about how the Pentagon runs this country.

I could go on and on, but I would only offend those who take pride in wearing uniforms.

[tblue]

27. I am 90% with you.

I support the wounded warriors because our country just uses them and then craps on them, but I don't think joining the military automatically makes anyone a hero. I also don't believe in absolute glorifying of the military. Might does not = Right. That's what the Nazis thought, and I would hope we we would always be wary of what the military is and does. It does much more harm than good these days it sure seems to me. Since WWII, it's our military actions have all been debatable and controversial, not to mention jingoistic and a racket.

[a11ig8r]

28. People in the military are Federal employees.

Nothing more, nothing less. They should be thankful to the taxpayers who employ them, not the other way around.

[bluesbassman]

34. Ever read the UCMJ?

Do that and then get back to me about how military personnel are Federal employees, nothing more, nothing less.

As a matter of fact, after you've read the UCMJ, go enlist, do your Basic and AIT training, and if you last through that, go do a tour or two in harms way then get back to me.

[earthside]

36. All the rest of us pay their salary and benefits.

Such as they are ... and for the elite brass, too.

I don't care what the UCMJ says --- they work for us, they are federal government employees.

The even bigger scandal is that the 'defense' contractors, weapons manufacturers, etc., are also on the taxpayer gravy train ... in effect, we are paying their salaries and benefits and for the owner's profits, too.

And the 'harms way' argument just doesn't hold much sway in the era of the volunteer military and the Afghanistan and Iraq wars where Bush/Cheney sent the military to basically fight for empire and corporate profit.

Sorry, but while I can respect the average GI for doing his duty, we all would have been better off if they had all had the courage to say 'no' and stayed home.

[bluesbassman]

52. "I don't care what the UCMJ says". Obviously.

But the reality is that the post I was responding to said that soldiers are "Federal employees, nothing more, nothing less" and that is disingenuous. Of course they are "Federal employees", but the fact is, as a soldier, one is subject to an entirely different set of rules than either the average American or civilian Federal employee. In addition, the very job description of a soldier puts them in a position that, with the exception af law enforcement, is something that all other "Federal employees" do not face.

Do you know how one enters in to military service? It begins with this:

I, (NAME), do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice.

Notice what the first stipulation is? Yeah, that's right, it's the Constitution of the United States. Not Standard Oil's corporate charter, or Lockheed's articles of incorporation. It goes on to say that taking that oath binds one to follow orders from the President and superior officers in allegiance to that oath. So while I disagree with our involvement in the wars we've been in, the fact remains that the service members who have and continue to fight in them are doing so because it's their duty to do so. Your problem is with the leaders who sent them.

Of course we'd all be better off if those soldiers could stay home. But until we as a species can figure out how to live on this planet in peace, there will be the necessity for Federal employees who put themselves in harms way.

[a11ig8r]

70. All federal employees must swear allegiance to the US Constitution

And most of the US military is made up of noncombatants.

[bluesbassman]

142. True, but that does not make them soldiers, nor subject to UCMJ, does it?

And FYI, many "noncombatants" lie in Arlington. No matter what one's MOS is, a tour of duty carries with it the potential to be in harms way. Your premise is that military personnel are merely "Federal employees, nothing more, nothing less". I have made several points to refute that assertion and you have made no attempt at either supporting the claim with fact or explaining what your rationale is for making such an absurd claim.

As you are either unwilling or unable to engage in meaningful discussion, I will discontinue my participation in this sub-thread. Enjoy your current stay at DU.

[PavePusher]

390. Some people "can't handle the truth". n/t

[a11ig8r]

41. The UCMJ says that military personnel are not Federal employees?

That must be a big surprise for them when they get that government check in the mail every month.

[uppityperson]

44. I think the "nothing more, nothing less" is the issue. nt

[bluesbassman]

54. See posts #44 and #52. That should make it clear. n/t

[hobbit709]

187. I get a government check every month too. I'm retired.

So does that make me a Federal employee by your illogic?

[Logical]

204. LOL, once again, so no one can complain about anything unless they have done the SAME thing?

[bluesbassman]

240. One can complain about anything one wishes too.

But one should not expect to get a free pass when one talks out their ejection port. Savvy?

[mokawanis]

32. I hate being told I must "support the troops"

Most of the time when I hear someone say "support the troops" I think they really mean "support the war(s)", and that pisses me off because America has not fought a war in my lifetime that deserved my support.

[L0oniX]

60. +1

[earthside]

33. 'Universal Soldier'

The larger, more profound truth is contained in the song written by Buffy Sainte-Marie and sung in this video by Donovan.

He's five foot two and he's six feet four
He fights with missiles and with spears
He's all of thirty-one and he's only seventeen
Been a soldier for a thousand years

He's a Catholic, a Hindu, an Atheist, a Jain
A Buddhist and a Baptist and a Jew
And he knows he shouldn't kill and he knows he always will
Kill you for me my friend and me for you

And he's fighting for Canada
He's fighting for France, he's fighting for the U.S.A.
And he's fighting for the Russians
And he's fighting for Japan
And he thinks we'll put an end to war this way

And he's fighting for Democracy, he's fighting for the Reds
He says "It's for the peace of all"
He's the one who must decide, who's to live and who's to die
And he never sees the writing on the wall

But without him
How would Hitler have condemned him at Labau?
Without him Caesar would have stood alone
He's the one who gives his body as a weapon of the war
And without him all this killing can't go on

He's the Universal Soldier and he really is to blame
His orders come from far away no more
They come from here and there and you and me
And brothers can't you see
This is not the way we put the end to war

[bahrbearian]

42. Thanks for posting that, it says it all.

[L0oniX]

65. Monster - Steppenwolf

Once the religious, the hunted and weary Chasing the promise of freedom and hope Came to this country to build a new vision Far from the reaches of kingdom and pope Like good Christians, some would burn the witches Later some got slaves to gather riches
But still from near and far to seek America They came by thousands to court the wild But she just patiently smiled and bore a child To be their spirit and guiding light
And once the ties with the crown had been broken Westward in saddle and wagon it went And 'til the railroad linked ocean to ocean Many the lives which had come to an end While we bullied, stole and bought our a homeland We began the slaughter of the red man
But still from near and far to seek America They came by thousands to court the wild But she just patiently smiled and bore a child To be their spirit and guiding light
The blue and gray they stomped it They kicked it just like a dog And when the war was over They stuffed it just like a hog
And though the past has it's share of injustice Kind was the spirit in many a way But it's protectors and friends have been sleeping Now it's a monster and will not obey
The spirit was freedom and justice And it's keepers seem friendly and kind It's leaders were supposed to serve the country But now they won't pay it no mind
'Cause the people got fat and grew lazy Now their vote is like a meaningless joke You know they talk about law, about order But it's all just an echo of what they've been told
'Cause there's a monster on the loose It's got our heads into a noose And it just sits there watchin'
Our cities have turned into jungles And corruption is stranglin' the land The police force is watching the people And the people just can't understand
We don't know how to mind our own business 'Cause the whole worlds got to be just like us Now we are fighting a war over there No matter who wins, you know we can't pay the cost
'Cause there's a monster on the loose It's got our heads into the noose And it just sits there watching
America where are you now? Don't you care about your sons and daughters? Don't you know we need you now We can't fight alone against the monster
America where are you now? Don't you care about your sons and daughters? Don't you know we need you now We can't fight alone against the monster
America where are you now? Don't you care about your sons and daughters? Don't you know we need you now We can't fight alone against the monster
America where are you now? Don't you care about your sons and daughters? Don't you know we need you now We can't fight alone against the monster America

[Taverner]

157. +100

[shintao]

37. Another $2 Billion Week in Afghanistan comes to a close

And we need $6 Billion on hand, just to with draw from the chit-hole



Well, come on all of you, big strong men,
Uncle Sam needs your help again.
Yeah, he's got himself in a terrible jam
Way down yonder in the desert sands
So put down your books and pick up a gun,
Gonna have a whole lotta fun.

And it's one, two, three,
What are we fighting for ?
Don't ask me, I don't give a damn,
Next stop is desert sand;
And it's five, six, seven,
Open up the pearly gates,
Well there ain't no time to wonder why,
Whoopee! we're all gonna die.

Yeah, come on Wall Street, don't be slow,
Why man, this is war au-go-go
There's plenty good money to be made
By supplying the Army with the tools of its trade,
Just hope and pray that if they drop the bomb,
They drop it on the al-Qaeda john.

And it's one, two, three,
What are we fighting for ?
Don't ask me, I don't give a damn,
Next stop is Desert sands.
And it's five, six, seven,
Open up the pearly gates,
Well there ain't no time to wonder why
Whoopee! we're all gonna die.

Well, come on generals, let's move fast;
Your big chance has come at last.
Now you can go out and get those reds
'Cause the only good Afghan is the one that's dead
And you know that peace can only be won

Read more at http://www.songmeanings.net/songs/view/88285/#ABegFL9QVZRbGt1L.99

[hrmjustin]

55. I think people should have a healthy dose of respect and skepticism of the military.

I am not into the worship of war or guns, but I respect any person who joins up. I think what many people do not like is the war worship of many in this country. Being a member of the military is nothing to be ashamed about.

[PeaceNikki]

62. .

[Initech]

64. I just saw the movie "Zero Dark Thirty" last weekend.

While it was necessary to find Osama bin Laden, there were two things about that movie that really disturbed me.

1. If he was in Pakistan this whole time - in a compound, what the fuck were we doing spending 8 years and hundreds of billions looking for him in caves in Afghanistan for????

2. The torture that was inflicted on those we captured - was fucking horrific to say the least. I wouldn't wish that on even my worst enemy.

[earthside]

74. You think Bush/Cheney didn't know?

I personally believe that the elite of the Bush/Cheney administration knew where bin Laden was for years.

But kill or capture him and the whole rationale for staying in Afghanistan and invading Iraq would collapse among the American public ... and Haliburton and the other 'defense' industries wouldn't have made anymore astronomical sums of money courtesy of the U.S. taxpayer.

That is my 'conspiracy theory' ... my contempt for Bush/Cheney is such that I certainly believe that they very well could have known and kept in to themselves for the political and personal benefit of themselves and their cronies.

[Initech]

99. Oh I'm sure they knew. Without question.

The thing is most people going to see this movie are most likely not going to dig deep into the real stories depicted in the movie but knowing what we know about the BFEE that wouldn't surprise me.

[Taverner]

155. I ask the same questions

I think America needs a big wake up that we aren't the good guys

[L0oniX]

66. Our military is the cause of terrorism.

Get the hell out of other peoples countries ...especially Islamic ones!

[Riftaxe]

69. Probably an even bet, that the troops

do not support self righteous twits, so your feelings toward our service and former service members are likely reciprocated if that helps you at all?

[XRubicon]

77. I think you are confused

Seems like you have issues with leadership. I will say that the volunteer military has greatly contributed to the military industrial complex. I would like to see a small professional military and a large population of draftees.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

78. Fortunate Son are you?

[Joey Liberal]

81. I'm a Liberal and a Veteran

I agree that we have way too many bases overseas. Yes, the military is too big.

But your statement about not supporting the troops and the military closing the doors is complete bullshit.

Abu Ghraib was an unacceptable tragedy and a black mark on our military, as is Gitmo.

But you really can't say that all generals are "murderous". They are not. And trust me, as a former Army Sergeant, I am no big fan of officers of all ranks.

The problem is that we have too many generals in the military and not enough veterans in Congress. We never should have invaded Iraq. We should have gotten out of Afghanistan years ago. We had a madman (Cheney) running the show with an incompetent twit (W) as the Commander n Chief. They also had a fool (Rumsfeld) as the Secretary of Defense. They ruined our military.

Get off of your high horse because unless you served in the military, you don't know your ass from a hole in the ground when it comes to veterans.

[Tanta]

109. I must say

I agree with Joey. There is so much hate in this thread...is this really DU?

This right here should be the center point of the argument.

[DissidentVoice]

409. Another liberal and veteran NT

[BigDemVoter]

82. Most people in the service are Repigs. . . .

Go figure. . . . I guess they like getting sent to senseless wars. I've never understood their attraction to the GOP.

Not that there AREN'T sensible people in the service. . . . But in 2012, a HUGE % went for Romney. I guess Romney's "military service" in a mansion in Paris rather than on patrol on the Mekong Delta was attractive to some.

[PavePusher]

391. You mean people voted for the side that didn't have people actively shitting on them?

Wow, what a surprise, eh?

Yeah, think about it.

[richmwill]

84. Oh, look- another Taverner "attention seeking shock-post" (eyeroll). (n/t)

[Inkfreak]

88. As a vet I can say I do not ask, nor care. n/t

[Coyote_Tan]

149. Active duty and I agree...

The right to desperately cry out for attention and validation is a sacred right in America.

One of the federalist papers I believe.

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

90. Some people wake up in the morning....

....and say "How can I look like an asshole today?"

Well played sir, well played.

[Berserker]

127. [phone]

[EmeraldCityGrl]

91. Those I have know that are most critical of the military

have been Vets. War is a racket and they know it.

[cliffordu]

95. Well... You might alert on what I'm about to say:

You said:

"Do I support the troops? Hell no."

Bummer. We will miss your simpering, useless, flaccid flamebait.

[zappaman]

108. +1

[Bonobo]

119. "useless and flaccid", huh.

So listen up everybody. Cause "cliffordu" wants to tell you two things.

1. Is that he's a virile, tough manly man who gets erections -BIG damn ones! In a heartbeat. He is USEFUL and STIFF.

2. That the OP, because he doesn't support the military, is a pansy. He is a womanly man (in cliffordu's opinion) who cannot get an erection and is therefore USELESS and FLACCID.

[L0oniX]

124. LMFAO

I used to not like you. Please forgive me for that.

[Bonobo]

139. No problem.

I tend to get kinda conservative only when I am defending Japan and stuff...

But I always liked you!

[Skittles]

134. that's why we LOVE Cliffordu

[a11ig8r]

298. Good call

[Egalitarian Thug]

414. Another insecure girlie-man exposed by the truth-bomb. Bava. n/t

[Taverner]

146. Nope, not going to alert

We've been head to head here before, and neither of us alerted on each other before

Let me ask you this, tho.

How did the war you served in protect our freedom?

[L0oniX]

148. I hear pins dropping. n/t

[jody]

154. What cliffordu said. nt

[Pharaoh]

96. ditto n/t

[MotherPetrie]

103. DITTO. I don't support the troops either.

Military worship sickens me.

[PavePusher]

392. Fortunately, no-one is asking you to worship anyone or anything.

And 99.99% of the military wouldn't want you to if you did.

[Dman292]

105. Federal Employees

I believe our soldiers are more than Federal Employees. They deserve all our respect. There are to few members of society paying attention, don't blame the soldier blame the citizen who is not paying Attention. They are making great sacrifices in service of our country

[Oasis_]

198. +1

I completely agree. The military routinely turns out fine, disciplined young men and women who are an asset to our society. Those that honorably serve our country in the armed forces deserve (at the very least) our respect. The anti-military sentiment expressed by a few is pretty disgusting.

[Puregonzo1188]

251. Do federal employees not deserve our respect?

[Bonobo]

112. You speak for me as well.

And then some.

[cliffordu]

120. To quote Chris Rock:

"That train is never late!!"

[secondvariety]

114. What a bullshit post.

Have you no sense of decency?

[L0oniX]

116. LMAO n/t

[Taverner]

144. What a bullshit response

Have you no sense of reality?

[secondvariety]

156. What the fuck is wrong with you?

You have no respect or appreciation for ANYONE who serves in the military? Thank God your fucking opinion is shared by only the most insignificant cretins and high school radicals. Grow the fuck up.

[Taverner]

161. Did I say that? No. I did not.

I see you've graduated to using real words instead of schoolyard taunts.

Look - the US has not been invaded. Even Pearl Harbor was not an invasion. 9/11 was not an invasion.

Yet we need to defend Afghanistan to defend the USA? Vietnam?

THEY ARE NOT FIGHTING FOR OUR FREEDOM.

They are fighting for Haliburton, Unocal, Duke Energy and Chevron.

What party am I from? The Democratic one. You're the one who wants those who you disagree with to shut up.

And yet you have the temerity to call yourself a Democrat?

Anyway, the invitation still stands - you are free to kiss my ass.

[secondvariety]

178. If your so sure of your position,

go spew your ignorant claptrap to the next Marine you see instead of a bunch of faceless internet users. Maybe when you sober up, you'll realize what an assheaded post you wrote.

[Taverner]

192. Ah I see...might makes right. That's what American Exceptionalism is all about.

Manifest Destiny!

We are the new chosen people!

USA!! USA!!!

[PavePusher]

394. Who said anything about "might" or any kind of force?

I'd expect you to get a short, pointed lecture, and maybe a hearty "go fuck yourself, sir".

But your insinuation of thoughtless thuggery seems to be of a piece with the rest of your drivel.

[L0oniX]

211. +1

[PavePusher]

393. Actually, I'm obeying the orders of my President, at the consent of Congress.

You know, those people we all voted for?

Don't like it? Take it up with the president, and don't shit on the rest of us.

[Canuckistanian]

122. Damn, that's a courageous stand

And as a Canadian, where we don't worship our military QUITE so much, I say bravo.

But you'd better put on your asbestos underwear anyways, Taverner.

[OldDem2012]

130. Just curious, but have you ever served in the military? You do understand that....

....you sign a contract when you join any branch of the military, don't you? Do you also understand that you have to go where the top guys order you to go?

Do I like it when a very small percentage of the military commits terrible acts/war crimes and it makes the entire US military as well as the entire US look bad?

No.

Do I think the Defense Department needs an annual budget anywhere close to $800+ billion?

No.

Do I support the troops?

As a former vet, yes I do, because I know what they're dealing with overseas and at home from people like you.

[L0oniX]

135. Some may think that by joining the military you are willingly dancing with the devil.

[Skittles]

136. of course not

people who have served certainly can and do criticize the military but they do not sound ignorant

[jody]

356. Agree! nt

[lost-in-nj]

131. when I see Abu Ghraib pictures I understand it's not all military

just some sick people that are in the military...

broad brush and all that....

whats wrong not enough drama tonight???

lost


on edit: I think this is a hit and run post.... OP's silence speaks volumes

[Taverner]

170. You really didn't read the news back then did you?

Do you know how many Iraqi prison photos the US had suppress?

Did you know this problem was SYSTEMIC during the war?

Did you know they had 10-year-old boys being sodomized by guards?

And this is just what leaked....

[lost-in-nj]

177. again ... yes i understand but also

this was not the WHOLE military.... not in the least
this was not a mind step

yes I read the news and
I saw the pictures and I know this is not
conducive of ALL military personal ... no matter what you say

horrors like this happened through all the wars, unfortunately but

it doesn't mean it was condoned by all.... and it is not condoned by me either

lost

[Taverner]

181. Not saying it is - but pretty much any investigator told us that was the tip of the iceberg

As the soldiers get older, they will start to tell their stories.

Same thing happened after Vietnam.

--------------------------

LEt me put it this way: if you were just assigned Abu Gharaib duty, and your CO told you to smear menstral blood on detainees (which was done) - would you refuse? I think you would. And I think you'd stand up.

From Abu Gharaib, no one did.

They only reason we found out about it was that the photos leaked on Facebook.

If you spend six months of someone's life teaching them to kill indiscriminately, why is it such a surprise when they go and do that?

[PavePusher]

396. No-one in the military is taught to "kill indiscriminately". Another slur from you. Feck off. n/

[Berserker]

132. Look a Veteran in the eye

and say that are you man enough?

[Taverner]

143. I have and did

And he told me he respected that, and yes, war is a racket.

[Berserker]

150. I think as a veteran

your post on this site is a piece of stinking shit and does not in any way represent our fellow Democrats or veterans and what we believe. I do not know what party you belong in but it is not mine.

[Taverner]

151. Kiss kiss

my ass that is

[Berserker]

152. Well you are correct

You are and ass.

[Taverner]

153. BTW...what makes you think I didn't serve my country?

Peace Corps, 92-95, Thailand, group 102

[Berserker]

169. LOL you are AWESOME

You call me a neocon what a small mind you have. Your pimply ass does nothing for me. But your OP does wonders for the REAL Democrat's in here. It let's everyone know what a real asshole you really are. Rock on.

[Taverner]

171. How can you be a REAL Democrat?

Calling for my posts to be censored....just like a typical bully

Yell louder so no one else joins in

Bullys don't get my respect

Neither do killers and their enablers

BTW...why the name "Berserker"? Did you know that they were Norse invaders who would kill, steal, and rape anything that got in their way? Yeah - tells me a lot about you, pally. You loves yourself some sadistic violence.

[Berserker]

180. OK play toy

I am not yelling. Never have but lets play. RESPECT you have none from any veteran. The name Berserker really you have to go there that's all you got? I'm not your pally. You are just a limp wrested whiner that loves attention. Try posting something that respects our veterans or do you really hate them?

[Taverner]

183. Oh cool, now we're at homophobic taunts. "Limp-wristed????"

Please tell me how Rove is doing?

Did he ever find those Ohio ballots?

[Bluenorthwest]

313. Amazingly homophobic language, sexist as well. The US military has many women and men who

are in service and are gay at the same time. The disrespect you are showing by using such vicious characterizations makes your objectives seem shallow and false. You yourself are disrespecting not only veterans but current service members as well. The words you use are words of hate, intolerance and ultimate disrespect.
When you offer yourself as spokesman for the military and then use that sort of verbiage, I'd say you do the service a disservice.

[stevenleser]

214. Your post was alerted

At Fri Dec 28, 2012, 08:56 PM an alert was sent on the following post:

I think as a veteran
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=2089259

REASON FOR ALERT:

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate. (See <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=aboutus#communitystandards" target="_blank">Community Standards</a>.)

ALERTER'S COMMENTS:

This post is an extreme, baiting, personal attack and goes way beyond violating what has long been our Community Standards here on DU. Every Anti-War Vet in this country normally affiliates themselves with the Democratic Party and they have done so for the past fifty years, so even what "Berserker" claims is a bold-faced lie. We do not need these sort of snarling attack posts on this board, so please hide this one.

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Fri Dec 28, 2012, 09:01 PM, and the Jury voted 3-3 to LEAVE IT.

Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: No explanation given
Juror #2 voted to HIDE IT and said: tend to agree...point defending military can be made without such vitriol
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: This post is a response to a horseshit OP. Leave it alone.
Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: Every few weeks someone like Taverner posts the same flame bait about not supporting the military and then we are supposed to be surprised when the flame bait is flamed. I'm not voting to hide this. When we get full equality for the LGBT community, when we get equal pay for equal work for women, when we get economic policies that are more just for the middle class, it will still not be time to deal with silliness like the OP.
Juror #5 voted to HIDE IT and said: No explanation given
Juror #6 voted to HIDE IT and said: No explanation given

Thank you very much for participating in our Jury system, and we hope you will be able to participate again in the future.

[Puregonzo1188]

255. Wow, sexist much?

"Man enough" it's a shame what kind of gendered, sexist bullshit is allowed to exist on this site.

[roody]

138. Most of our so called wars,

invasions actually, are fought to deny freedom to the people whose countries we attack.

[DevonRex]

162. I don't give a flying fuck or a rat's ass. I'm a proud female Army veteran.

I didn't need your support then and I sure as hell don't want it now.

[Scurrilous]

164. ...

[Berserker]

165. Thank you

for your service. And I am a Democrat and proud of it.

[Berserker]

182. What a joke you are!

You do not represent any of us. Bye Bye.

[Taverner]

184. Funny, I was going to say the same of you

Tell Wolfie I said HI!

[Berserker]

188. Awwww you are so cute

Thanks for playing.

[Taverner]

190. I have an offer you can't refuse

I put you on ignore

You put me on ignore

deal?

[jody]

199. I've got DevonRex's back, any other vets want to fall in? nt

[JohnnyLib2]

209. Sure, and a pat on the back to you, too.

Somehow, the awful phrase "friendly fire" comes to mind in this thread.

[DevonRex]

224. Definitely

creepy. The kind that'll make the hair on the back of your neck rise up.

[DevonRex]

222. Thanks.

And I have yours.

[pecwae]

296. Another thumbs up

from a fellow Army female vet!

[DevonRex]

381. Cool!

It's always great to meet someone who has been there, done that. We did it. We succeeded. You and I know what that means.

[stevenleser]

372. Proud USAF vet here who supports you. These ridiculous OP's we get every few weeks are just that.

Ridiculous. Taverner and those who agree with him/her are not going to convince people we shouldnt honor idealistic and patriotic kids willing to risk their lives for us. That is true whether those kids join the peace corps, join the fire department, go into law enforcement, or join the military.

The military is 100% under civilian control as it reports to the President. And the President, like all elected leaders, reports to "We The People". "We the People" are responsible for those whom we elect. We also pay taxes to the government who uses those taxes to pay for whatever the military does.

So every American citizen owns a piece of control of the military. Blaming "the military" for defense decisions made by civilian leadership is ridiculous.

Fact is, it is much easier for Taverner and those who agree with him/her to attack idealistic kids than address the real questions about responsibility here.

[DevonRex]

373. Exactly.

I figure it's 50/50 these days, idealistic kids who want to serve their country to those who are just so poor they have no other option but to risk their lives in order to support themselves. But along the way, they develop a sense of idealism, too.

Sometimes it gets crushed by the cold, hard realities of war and the horrors they face. But for a little while at least, they're all humbled and honored by the responsibility. It's so very far from asking to be worshiped it leaves me aghast at the OP.

[OldDem2012]

377. From one vet to another - "High Five". nt.

[DevonRex]

382. Right backatcha. ^^^^^

[Throd]

172. Considering how much you worship your ego, opinions, and indulgences, there is time for little else.

[Taverner]

173. Hey, how's Rove doing?

Did he ever find those missing Ohio votes?

[Berserker]

185. Tell us

we want to know anti-vet

[Taverner]

189. Hey I'm not the college republican intern working out of that Langley office

[Berserker]

191. ARE YOU SURE?

What you are at this point?

[Taverner]

194. I am toying with a small mouse, who thinks he or she has a chance

But cannot muster anything other than a jingoist chant, or a fluttering flag

[Captain Stern]

179. I agree with a lot of what you said...

....but you lost me with this: "Do I support the troops? Hell no."

Our troops are our sons and daughters. They sign up for a hard job to make better lives for themselves and their kids. They don't start wars. They have no say whatsoever about where they'll be asked to serve. They have a job, and they show up, and do it well.

I don't think anyone has asked you to worship the ground that our military walks on, but our troops do deserve your support....whether you like the decisions that our civilian leaders have made or not.

[quinnox]

197. I would only support the troops if they were fighting a war based on self-defense, or

stopping the threat of world-wide tyranny like WW II. So far, in my lifetime, all the wars have been fought for economic, or natural resources, or strategic reasons, and are bullshit type reasons to fight wars, so I don't support those wars.

And those who think that anyone who puts on a uniform is an automatic "hero" or deserves automatic respect has been brainwashed by our ever present, blanketing and constant psychological propaganda of our military worshiping culture that we have in this country.

[AldoLeopold]

230. Yep - pretty much. You win this thread

[Lydia Leftcoast]

263. Yes, people act as if patriotism and militarism are the same thing

There is no honor in fighting a bad war. I feel sorry for the rank-and-file soldiers who have been suckered into believing that they're fighting for freedom and for those who have joined for economic reasons. I think that veterans who have been wounded in mind or body deserve the best of care.

But if a young person came to me and said, "Should I enlist?" I'd say, "Hell, no! Not with the way the U.S. fights wars now."

[malz]

205. no need for this

No one who hasn't been in a hyper-pressurized situation can really know. Or judge.

[jody]

357. Agree! nt

[condoleeza]

208. Well, I know you can be a pain in the ass here, Taverner, but

I have to say that we pretty well agree here.

I'm Vietnam era, my fiancé died there in 2/68. We didn't learn the real circumstances of his death until nearly a year later when one of his fellow soldiers contacted me after he had completed his duty there. They were both serving at the Embassy in Saigon during the Tet Offensive of early '68. Westmoreland was "in residence" there for a bit and they were having a big party for him there in the beautiful palace they occupied, with indoor swimming pools, and dinners that were rather lavish, while the regular troops were out in the jungles slogging it out and dying by land mines daily. So, my fiancé was sent out via helicopter to pick up some "girls" from a local "friendly" village to entertain the visiting dignitaries and their staff people - can we say prostitutes? - yes that's what they were. The only bit of comfort I have is that the helicopter was shot down before they picked up the "girls".

We had a draft then, education and job opportunities didn't matter, they took everyone that didn't know how to play the game. It's not like that now. In WW2 there was a true need for global protection against Germany, but IMO, every war since then has been a matter of economics and protecting the wealth of SOME Americans. My classmates, friends, and my fiancé, 14 of whom died in Vietnam, were literally drafted a month BEFORE graduating HS or College and my fiancé had dreams of being a diplomat, which is why he was chosen to be where he served. Those who came back were damaged and PTSD wasn't even a recognized condition then. They came home from an unpopular war where they had experienced horrific atrocities and nobody welcomed them, or respected them for their service and they became disillusioned, became alcoholics, and often became violent, there was no mental health counseling available to them. You want to talk "rape culture", VietNam gave Vietnamese women no option if they wanted to feed their family.

I was getting all my paperwork in order prior to my fiancé's release from service in 5/'68 because he'd been in contact as a liaison with the news and had been offered a job after he'd served as a reporter for a now nonexistent magazine and I was planning on joining him in 6/'68. I would have loved to have been there, to have been part of rebuilding what we'd destroyed.

I know there are some who grew up with a pride in serving their country, however misdirected, IMO, but the reality is that the vast majority of those who serve now and since Korea, are those who have few options, little education and thus are just fodder for the wealthy who depend on them to give their service, their limbs, and their lives to fight for their absolutely insatiable and completely guiltless belief that they deserve to be rich. They are literally groomed as fodder from an early age, it is just pathetic, racist and shameful, IMO.

Where do you walk a line that supports Veterans Day and the very real injuries and deaths that have occurred since Bush 1 and 9/11? I don't know, it's just a continuing tragedy, IMO. I'm old, I'm just so disillusioned, I worked hard for civil rights when I was inspired by my HS SS teacher, and have been involved since then politically, but now I just really wonder what's the point? We're still arguing "reproduction politics" in every election, we're still so unimportant as a voice for equality worldwide. I'm just sad and hopeless, and I see that in you too. My investments have been robbed, I'm SS age now and I can only work so many more years and then I'm dependent on the SS that I've been paying into since I was 14, and WTF do I have to look forward to? Guess I can sign onto a plan where I can live off the equity in my house...........

[countryjake]

218. ^^^This^^^

I thank you for this meaningful post and since Taverner has now been knocked right out of this thread, I'd imagine that they would thank you.

Some of us are old enough and aware enough to get it.

[JohnnyLib2]

223. Your post brings so much back to mind--

the draft, the deaths, the protests, the painful realizations across those years. I honor the memory of your fiance and
feel sad for your loss.

I don't know the answer to your question about walking that line, but respect for the sacrifices made will always be important to this old guy.

[condoleeza]

248. Yeah, me too JohnnyLib2 and Countryjake

Just thought that we'd have evolved as humans by this point in my life and I guess that's too much to hope for. I'm most often too wordy here, as people like little bites to read and I'm a writer and often frustrated here by the generational lack of knowledge of actual history.

I'd have loved to have gone to Saigon and have been there during "the fall" so many what if's, for so many of my generation. I am hopeful that Kerry will come into his own as SOS, and truly will make a difference, but......don't want to hope too much.

Speaking of Kerry, this is my all-time favorite post - post election 2004:


best of craigslist > boston > welcome, the have nots and have even less--you fucking idiots
Originally Posted: Wed, 3 Nov 21:12 EST
welcome, the have nots and have even less--you fucking idiots

Date: 2004-11-03, 9:12PM EST

all day i felt like i had broken up with someone. i fell asleep with the remote in my hand listening to the news reporting votes. i woke up unable to even look at newspaper headlines or look at cnn. i saw a headline while walking up the steps to my job "undecided". i felt hope. we gathered around the television to listen to kerry and edwards admit defeat, no fighting where the finally couldve...this wasnt al gore. fuck you kerry if you think that i am going to help you out next time. get a fucking democrat with some motherfucking balls..or at least one. i cried while watching him speak/give up. i fucking cried.
and the expression on bush's face makes me want to ram my fucking foot down his throat. that fucking smirk on his shiny monkey face he has that look like a guy gives a girl “oh, wrong hole.” get ready to be fucked in the ass for four more years honey. i want president bush to have an underwear nightmare in front of the entire world. i want someone to catch him gloating about all of the inbred misinformed poor people that voted for him. i want a fucking movie moment. i want to storm the whitehouse.


my mother and her political partners didnt risk their fucking lives year after year just to relive some of this shit. my uncle didnt go to vietnam and come back only to be abused for fighting and then for fighting against the war. i sat on my godmother hip while she had her head bashed in by police for workers rights for nothing. i was covered in blood at age 6 because my family and friends were fighting to make your lives better. my parents sacrified my fucking childhood so hundreds of other kids wouldnt have to suffer. i wouldnt have ever said that i wanted to take that all back but i if i could, i would because you didnt deserve it. ive watched dozens of people be beaten down by people in uniform. i had rocks thrown at my house because we fought against the klan. i hid for more that 9 hours in an attic unable to speak because my family and friends fought against shit like this. ive had nightmares for years because my family fought your battles. during the gulf war i watched as one of my indian friends got his ass kicked because they thought that he was an “irakee”. FUCK YOU for voting for a goddamn terrorist. you rehired a sadistic fuck who only cares if oil is thicker than your blood.


you havent fought for a fucking thing in your life if you voted for bush.

when you vote republican its like pretending that you are a millionaire. FUCK TAXES? who the fuck is going to pay for your ebt or wic? fuck abortion? how many more fucking babies are you going to crowd into your house? what house? screw housing developments! fuck healthcare? see who is gonna take care of you when you are drooling all over yourself? fuck you because all those babies that you couldnt afford to have in the first place are the first ones that are going to war every time because to bush and the rest of the world thinks your sons life is trash. by voting for bush you are setting your children up to be killed. you think bush is pro-life? what trimester is your 18 year old son going to be in when they take his ass over to some oil soaked country just to use him as bait? you think that 9/11 was it? you fucking watch how much more pissed off everyone else is now that we have this fucking asshole as president again. no one is going to bomb motherfucking ohio. no one is going to attack idaho. doesnt it say anything to you that kerry won ny? that kerry won washington d.c and pennsylvania? the very states that were actually attacked? and you are fucking scared sitting your fucking trailer drinking your goddamn coors talking "them immigrants taking all the jobs." no one would even waste throwing a rock at you. you think bush is going to take care of you? you think hes gonna actually defend you? maybe bush will be real nice and ask his friend ken lay to give you a fucking job.
when your foodstamps are gone and you are pissing all over yourself on the corner of a street without disability or a pension i will smile in your face. i will lean really close to you and mouth the words "i told you so."




Whoever it was that posted this obviously was inspired by personal experience, which is why it resonated with me. Little has changed since then, and much of what this person said is reality now. I hope Kerry has grown a pair and will use it now, what does he have to lose?

[theKed]

311. Excellent post.

[jody]

366. Agree I'm confident JohnnyLib2 & I march to the same drummer re "don't know the answer" but we hope.

That's all that we old guys and women have left, hope!

But that's HOPE for future generations because some of us have already fought and died so our descendants may build a better tomorrow.

Our second President John Adams said “I must study politics and war, that my sons may have the liberty to study mathematics and philosophy, natural history and naval architecture, in order to give their children a right to study painting, poetry, music, architecture, tapestry, and porcelain.”

Seems like some here on DU are still in John Adam's first level.

[Paladin]

303. Well Said, Condoleeza. Thanks.

Your comments make up for all the military jock sniffing so in evidence on this thread.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

321. I didn't lose a fiancé, but I'm also part of the generation where 50,000 Americans died

for ideological fanaticism and LBJ's ego and Henry Kissinger's cynicism, and countless others came home disabled or mentally disturbed. That's not counting the millions of Vietnamese whose blood is on our hands.

There's a whole branch of my mother's side of the family that's career military. I can't talk to them about politics at all, because they start playing the tape about "fighting for freedom" and "defending your rights to criticize," but except for my great-uncle, who was a chaplain for the troops in the South Pacific during World War II, they all managed to spend their careers in safe posts Stateside or in Europe (one generation was too old for Vietnam, and the next one was too young). Are they heroes?

What about the men of my generation who enlisted rather than be drafted so that they would have a chance of avoiding Vietnam? I know some of them, too. They were able to spend their entire four years in safe posts, so were they heroes?

What about the fellow I mentioned in another post, the one who is so guilt-ridden about what he was forced to do and what he saw during his time as an "adviser" in Central America that he can't talk about it without choking up? Is he a hero?

Ever since Reagan came to office, there's been this cult of glorification of the military, something that had been dormant since World War II. Every country needs a military to defend itself. It does NOT need a military to "extend its influence."

[Aerows]

210. I've seen shameful posts before

but this one takes the cake. Our men and women in uniform do a difficult job, and it is a job that they serve our country for. I'm sure they don't always agree with their orders, but they are diligent in doing them because they took an oath to do so.

[NYC_SKP]

212. On average, US veterans commit 18 suicides per day. Successful suicides. Per DAY!

You have to wonder why anyone would want to pile on them.

Much less why 39 people would want to pile on that pile.

[Aerows]

215. I don't understand it either

This is a bullshit post, and I, for one, take a stand against it.

[AsahinaKimi]

244. As someone who

Volunteers at the VA Hospital and works with disabled veterans, I find this post disgusting. But its a free country and people are allowed their opinions and we are allowed to disagree with them.

[Aerows]

256. Kimiko!

So good to see you posting again

[AsahinaKimi]

264. hi!

[Lydia Leftcoast]

270. I do not begrudge the veterans good treatment, but as a nation, we have to get over the following

poisonous ideas:

1. That all U.S. military ventures past and present have been about fighting for freedom

2. That military personnel are serving their country instead of the corporate interests that run the country

3. That serving in the military will "make a man" out of an 18-year-old. (A sick thought, as if learning to kill is what constitutes manhood).

4. That if you hate what the U.S. has done with its military, then you hate the soldiers

5. That if you aren't a gung ho supporter of every U.S. military venture, then you're unpatriotic

Above all, we need an economy that provides good jobs for non-college young people, so that they don't feel that the military is their only option.

[DevonRex]

282. Your second one is totally fucked up. Fuck that shit.

You wanna take it to that extreme then you serve corporate interests every damned day of your own life. Unless you're totally off the grid, hmm??? I thought not. Leave the kids out of it. They're serving in the same damn military I did and our parents did in Vietnam and WWII. You just think it sounds cool to say shit like your #2 when it is completely meaningless.

Oh, and how nice that you don't begrudge veterans proper care.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

285. Sorry, Devon, but I can't see anything in the wars since Korea

that have been about "freedom."

You can think whatever you like about what you were doing in the military. That doesn't change the fact that you weren't "fighting for freedom" or "serving your country," as if only military personnel serve their country. Those of us who protested the Vietnam and Iraq Wars did so in the spirit of "serving our country," partly because we didn't want to see people like you get killed and maimed for no good reason, partly because we thought our country should not act like a meddling empire.

[Aerows]

288. You may not

But the fact is that our military does indeed serve with honor, and neglecting that point is a travesty to me.

I have family members currently serving in dangerous conditions. I don't like the war in Afghanistan, I think it is absurd. But to malign the men and women service by making their mission one of ignominy?

I will not do it.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

289. Some serve with honor; others don't

and like many of the other posters here, I resent being told by the media that I have to "support the troops" by not criticizing the wars or by excusing the misdeeds that some military personnel commit.

[earthside]

352. "Honor" would be to get out of a corrupt military.

It's a volunteer job.

There is also always the option to have real genuine courage and refuse to fight a war of occupation (that's what Iraq was/is; that's what afghanistan has become) ... and accept the consequences.

Until we make militaries and wars dishonorable endeavors, we are going to continue to see the innocent slaughtered for empire and profit.

[DevonRex]

291. You're confusing issues with institutions.

The institution is the same. It is the military. Period. Each war is different, to be fought and protested on its own merits. To have been in the military does not mean I support all wars, or any war in the future. I have protested myself. I would prefer there to be no more wars ever. I would protect the US and I would intervene in genocide. Those 2 are givens for me. Because I am a protector by nature. Mostly I believe in prevention.

But that freedom argument is insulting. That's how Republicans talk and I remind you that I am a very well educated Democrat and I know quite well when someone is talking down to me. However, I did serve my country thank you very much. I continued to do so afterwards, as well, helping keep the public safe from the illegal gun trade in this country. It's an impossible, thankless task. You're welcome.

[jody]

360. Hit that one out of the park! nt

[jody]

359. Agree! nt

[PavePusher]

398. And I'll take exception to #3.

If you think that is all anyone learns in the military, or even the majority, it merely demonstrates your ignorance and bigotry.

Go awy and learn something before spewing such vile crap again.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

401. I have relatives who think that way

I didn't just make it up. They urge their sons to enlist at 18 "to make men out of them."

[PavePusher]

405. But you're using that brush on everyone. And that doesn't work. So knock it off. n/t

[Lydia Leftcoast]

407. It's not an uncommon attitude--I've heard it from others as well--

but I never said that everyone felt that way or had all those beliefs.

If the shoe fits, wear it. Otherwise, why are you upset?

[Kath1]

280. AsahinaKimi....

A voice of reason! Thank you, young sister!

[AsahinaKimi]

286. dou itashimashite

you are welcome.

[PeaceNikki]

217. I care for them as PEOPLE. As such, I want fewer vets. Fewer atrocities of war. Fewer suicides.

Fewer snapping and shooting up Sikh Temples, beauty salons and their wives faces.

[DevonRex]

267. Between your post and LittleBlue's

just below, I'm just bowled over with all the care and concern. Thanks. From a veteran, a female vet. Sorry to burst your bubble, I never snapped and shot up a temple , etc.

[PeaceNikki]

271. of course you haven't.

I want fewer vets and more care for the ones we have.

Look, I'm not the OP, nor am I the other poster you replied to. I care for the people that the military kills, hurts, ruins and uses.

[DevonRex]

276. Ok.

Thanks. I guess this thread has gotten to me. Sorry.

[PeaceNikki]

279. I understand, it's tense in here.

I get what the OP meant, and I don't think he meant malice against you guys personally... But I could be wrong. However, I can only speak for me. I get the contempt for glorifying war and the military machine and illegal wars. And I get the pride, honor and commitment of soldiers, marines and seamen (et Al).

I am very seriously personally concerned about what these wars are doing to our generation. It's been 11 years and a lot of bad shit has gone down in very dangerous regions. And I think we need to stop and take care of those we've hurt.



ETA: this just happened in my hometown. I am not saying it's *you* or every vet, but watch the video linked. Even just the first few minutes. In context, it's chilling. And heartbreaking.
The Milwaukee County District Attorney's Office filed one count of First Degree Intentional Homicide against Benjamin Sebena in the murder of his wife, Wauwatosa Police officer Jennifer Sebena, early Christmas Eve morning.

Sebena, 30, appeared in court Thursday and bail was set at $1 million.

According to a criminal complaint, Sebena admitted to "stalking his wife for several days" because "he had been jealous of other men with regards to his wife."

On December 24th, he "laid in wait for her in the area of . He waited for several hours."

"On seeing her squad car, he came up and began to shoot her after she emerged from her break in the fire department. He said she moved like she was reaching for her firearm. He then took her gun from her holster."

"He then shot her in the face with her service weapon three or four times. Benjamin Sebena stated that he wanted to make sure she was dead to she wouldn't suffer."
http://www.jsonline.com/multimedia/video/?bcpid=13960334001&bctid=2054803896001

[Lydia Leftcoast]

275. I want to pile on a system that takes mostly naive young people, puts them

in foreign countries that they don't understand, and makes them do things that traumatize them so badly that they are driven to suicide.

I'm not piling on the individuals, but if it makes you fell all patriotic to interpret it that way, go ahead.

[jody]

364. If you're serious, then attack presidents and the O-10s they select and Congress that funds the

things you and I oppose?

Why do people allow those who want to divide and conquer once again We the People when it is not the "military" but Presidents and Congress who are the problem.

IMO as long as We the People allow ourselves to be divided and polarized over 5 or 6 political issues between major political parties and as in this thread within a major political party, the only real winners are the corporatists who finance enough candidates in both major parties to pass bills that advance us toward a corporate state.

If we allow thoughts like this threads OP to impede progress within the Democratic Party, then Lincoln's dream of a people's government will indeed perish and MLK's "I Have a Dream" will die aborning.

Our United States government is the world's oldest continuous government, Iceland is disputable, and the grandest experiment of all times to see if a disparate society representing all aspects of the world's peoples, can find enough common ground to govern itself.

If that experiment fails, and each of us is a player, then the world's governments are doomed to fail and only a despotic world government controlled by corporatists will survive.

[LittleBlue]

220. I'll save my sympathy for the tens of thousands we've butchered

in Bush's wars.

Whatever the difficulty of their job, being killed, maimed, or orphaned by their weapons is infinitely worse.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

266. That's the standard bullshit line

Whatever the rank-and-file personnel THINK they're doing, they're actually serving corporate interests.

[Aerows]

268. When you get shot at

on a regular basis, I think it tends to color your perspective. That is the reality that our men and women face regardless of what we might think in the overall picture. I have family members serving currently, and I love them.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

277. I hope your family members stay safe, and I hope you're asking your

Congresscritters and the president to wind up these stupid wars and bring the troops home.

[jody]

365. Agree. Unless you've marched in their boots, don't condemn the "military" that includes E-1 to O-10.

[jody]

358. Agree! nt

[LittleBlue]

213. Heroes my ass

Most of them signed up because it was a career path with few barriers to entry (no drugs, no felonies) and/or wanted money for college.

We never used to call them heroes, they only became heroes when they fought in two utterly pointless Mid East wars. They are little more than political/corporate tools, deployed to enhance the perception of the president and to pad profits for corporations. Protecting the homeland? lol not a hemisphere away they're not! The people who really decide whether they live or die sit in board rooms counting profits from oil, and if they can squeeze out a few million for the death of a soldier, that's a bargain for them.

Sorry, it's the truth about our military. The armed services haven't been used for defense in a long, long time.

[bigtree]

229. dick post

. . .

[rl6214]

231. And who are you and who really gives a fuck what you think

Or what you rant about

[white_wolf]

234. Einstein sums up my views very well:

"He who joyfully marches to music in rank and file has already earned my contempt. He has been given a large brain by mistake, since for him the spinal cord would fully suffice. This disgrace to civilization should be done away with at once. Heroism at command, senseless brutality, deplorable love-of-country stance, how violently I hate all this, how despicable and ignoble war is; I would rather be torn to shreds than be a part of so base an action! It is my conviction that killing under the cloak of war is nothing but an act of murder. "

[L0oniX]

342. Patriotism is for fools: See list bellow...

Military men are just dumb stupid animals to be used as pawns in foreign policy. - Henry Kissinger

"Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired signifies, in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and are not clothed. This world in arms is not spending money alone. It is spending the sweat of its laborers, the genius of its scientists, the hopes of its children." - Dwight Eisenhower

You measure a democracy by the freedom it gives its dissidents, not the freedom it gives its assimilated conformists.- Abbie Hoffman


Blind obedience to authority is the enemy of the truth. - Albert Einstein

Become an internationalist and learn to respect all life. Make war on machines. And in particular the sterile machines of corporate death and the robots that guard them. -Abbie Hoffman

That worst outcrop of herd life, the military system, which I abhor . . . This plague-spot of civilization ought to be abolished with all possible speed. Heroism on command, senseless violence, and all the loathsome nonsense that goes by the name of patriotism–how passionately I hate them! – Albert Einstein

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Never was a patriot yet, but was a fool. – John Dryden

A patriot is a fool in ev’ry age. – Alexander Pope.

Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel. – Samuel Johnson

In Dr. Johnson’s famous dictionary, patriotism is defined as the last resort of a scoundrel. With all due respect to an enlightened but inferior lexicographer, I beg to submit that it is the first. – Ambrose Bierce

Patriotism is as fierce as a fever, pitiless as the grave, blind as a stone, and irrational as a headless hen. – Ambrose Bierce

That pernicious sentiment, “Our country, right or wrong.” – James Russell Lowell

“My country right or wrong” is a thing that no patriot would think of saying except in a desperate case. It is like saying, “My mother drunk or sober.” – G. K. Chesterton

Patriotism which has the quality of intoxication is a danger not only to its native land but to the world, and “My country never wrong” is an even more dangerous maxim than “My country, right or wrong.” – Bertrand Russell

Patrioism is your conviction that this country is superior to all other countries because you were born in it. – George Bernard Shaw

Patriotism is the virtue of the vicious. – George Bernard Shaw

You’ll never have a quiet world till you knock the patriotism out of the human race. – George Bernard Shaw

Patriotism is a pernicious, psychopathic form of idiocy. – George Bernard Shaw

Patriotism is an ephemeral motive that scarcely ever outlasts the particular threat to society that aroused it. – Denis Diderot

To me, it seems a dreadful indignity to have a soul controlled by geography. – George Santayana

The Athenian democracy suffered much from that narrowness of patriotism which is the ruin of all nations. – H.G. Wells

Nationalism is our form of incest, is our idolatry, is our insanity. “Patriotism” is its cult. . . . Just as love for one individual which excludes the love for others is not love, love for one’s country which is not part of one’s love for humanity is not love, but idolatrous worship. – Erich Fromm

One of the great attractions of patriotism–it fulfills our worst wishes. In the person of our nation we are able, vicariously, to bully and cheat, Bully and cheat, what’s more, with a feeling that we are profoundly virtuous. – Aldous Huxley

Many studies have discovered a close link between prejudice and “patriotism” . . . Extreme bigots are almost always super-patriots – Gordon Allport

It seems like the less a statesman amounts to, the more he loves the flag. – Elbert Hubband

Patriotism varies, from a noble devotion to a moral lunacy. – William Inge

Every miserable fool who has nothing at all of which he can be proud, adopts, as a last resource, pride in the nation to which he belongs; he is ready and glad to defend all its faults and follies tooth and nail, thus reimbursing himself for his own inferiority. – Arthur Schopenhauer

Patriotism is the passion of fools and the most foolish of passions. – Arthur Schopenhauer

Patriotism corrupts history. – Goethe

Into the cultural and technological system of the modern world, the patriotic spirit fits like dust in the eyes and sand in the bearings. Its net contribution to the outcome is obscuration, distrust, and retardation at every point where it touches the fortunes of modern mankind. – Thorstein Veblen

The standardization of mass-production carries with it a tendency to standardize a mass-mind, producing a willing conformity, not merely to common ways of living, but to common ways of thinking and common valuations. The worst defect of patriotism is its tendency to foster and impose this common mind, and so to stifle the innumerable germs of liberty. – J.A. Hobson

2. Patriotism and War:

At the bottom of all patriotism is war: that is why I am no patriot. – Jules Renard

No other factor in history, not even religion, has produced so many wars as has the clash of national egotisms sanctified by the name of patriotism. – Preserved Smith

Naturally the common people don’t want war . . . Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders . . . All you have to do is to tell them they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism. – Hermann Goering.


3. Patriotism and Religion:

Patriotism is a kind of religion; it is the egg from which wars are hatched. – Guy de Maupassant

God and Country are an unbeatable team; they break all records for oppression and bloodshed. – Luis Buñuel

To be patriotic, hate all nations but your own; to be religious, all sects but your own; to be moral, all pretenses but your own. – Lionel Strachey

When a dog barks at the moon, then it is religion; but when he barks at strangers, it is patriotism! – David Starr Jordan

4. The American Syndrome:

If you have a weak candidate and a weak platform, wrap yourself up in the American flag and talk about the Constitution. – Matt Quay

How much longer are we going to think it necessary to be “American” before (or in contradistinction to) being cultivated, being enlightened, being humane, & having the same intellectual discipline as other civilized countries? It is really too easy a disguise for our shortcomings to dress them up as a form of patriotism. – Edith Wharton

The 100 percent American is 99 percent an idiot. – George Bernard Shaw

Treason is in the air around us everywhere. It goes by the name of patriotism. – Thomas Corwin

5. Three relatively positive assessments of patriotism:

A patriot is somebody who protects his country from his government. Or better yet: who has the guts to protect his country from its government. – Piotyr Dirk

Guard against the impostures of pretended patriotism. – George Washington

Dissent is the highest form of patriotism. – Thomas Jefferson

[Kath1]

238. I am vehemently anti-war

but I do support the men and women in the military. What I don't support are our officials who use them for unjust purposes. I have young family members who have served in Iraq and Afghanistan. They know I've protested against the war and they have no problem with that at all. They have to follow orders. It is up to us to elect the right people.

[jody]

278. "officials who use them for unjust purposes" and IMO the worst offenders are Dubya Bush and Obama.

Obama has the authority to expedite his retreat from Afghanistan, close Guantanamo, and to not get involved in Libya, Egypt, Syria and the ME.

Dubya screwed up big time but Obama can no longer blame his misadventures in the Middle East on Dubya.

[a11ig8r]

310. That's like being against gun violence

but pro NRA.

[nadinbrzezinski]

269. So, let's s'pose the military closes up shop

Let's go there for a second.

How long for the rest of the world to follow suit?

Yes, I can see a few trillion in cuts, but the world will not go into kumbaya.

And I blame the political class you and I elect by the by, for the misuse f the armed forces.

Misplaced anger and all that.

[Dems to Win]

287. I support the troops so much I want to bring them home right now. And care for them as needed.

And give them disability pay and medical care without hassling them for years on end.

People like Jessica Lynch, Pfc, are just trying to get by in a tough world. I respect them just as I respect people who work at Walmart. We owe the people who joined the military in good faith and were sent to awful places to do awful things in our names.

Petraeus, Scharzkopf, Colin Powell, et al? I don't respect them so much.

But anyone I'm likely to meet that served in the military is worthy of my honor and respect and my letters to my congressman supporting their fair treatment. Regardless of my views on the war (and I opposed both Iraq wars and Afghanistan from day one) we do owe them good treatment, as best we can provide.

[Resonance_Chamber]

294. As a Vet I can say OK that is your right this is what freedom is about

Much of the negative about the military that has been posted is true and much of it is false too. Pointless to straighten people out most people would not and do not believe the truth anyway anymore.

A full time and funded Navy is required by the US Constitution but the Army and Air Force are not allowed funding for more than 2 years at a time, hence the 2 year DoD Budget cycle to skirt around the pesky Constitution.

If one wants a smaller Military one needs to stop the corporate lobbying.

[diphthong]

295. The best response to this is "Critical Acclaim" by Avenged Sevenfold

The rant at about 1:51 says it all....

Shhh be quiet, you might piss somebody off
Like me motherfucker, you've been at it for too long
While you feed off others insecurities
You stand in front of me and bite the hand that feeds

Self-righteousness is wearing thin
(Lies inside your head your bestfriend)
Heart bleeds but not for fellow men
(Broken glass, your fake reflection)

I've had enough it's time for something real
I don't respect the words you're speaking
Gone too far, a clone

So how does it feel to know that someones kid in the heart of america
Has blood on their hands, fighting to defend your rights
So you can maintain the lifestyle that insults this family's existance

Well, where I'm from we have a special salute we aim high in the air
Towards all those pompous assholes who spend their days pointing fingers

Fuck you


Shh be quiet, you might piss somebody off
Like the heartbeat of this country when antagonized too long
I'll be damned if you count me in as part of your generous hypocrisy
Collecting enemies

Tabloid gossip queen worthless man
(There's no need for us to bury you)
Selfish agenda once again
(Right this way, you've dug your own grave)

I've had enough it's time for something real
I don't respect the words you're speaking
Gone too far, a clone

All the way from the east to the west
We've got this high society looking down on this very foundation
Constantly reminding us that our actions are the cause of all their problems
Pointing the fingers in every direction
Blaming their own nation for who wins elections
They've never contributed a fucking thing to the country they love to criticize

Excuse the obscene, ignore the untrue
Depictions we see, try and get through
Admitting mistakes can hurt
I'm not the last but I sure ain't the first

Shh be quiet, you might piss somebody off

(Self-righteousness is wearing thin)
Lies inside your head your bestfriend
(Heart bleeds but not for fellow man)
Broken glass, your fake reflection

I've had enough it's time for something real
I don't respect these words you speak
You've gone too far, a clone

[white_wolf]

351. I think Rise Against's "Hero of War" is a much better response to this thread.

[sibelian]

304. Taverner...

Maybe just leave it, huh, buddy?

[deathrind]

305. 99%

Of vets I have known see people who have not served as being not equal to them. Service to your country is only honorable when it is done with honor and that means sometimes one has to stand up for what it right not just follow orders.

[Jokerman]

308. Wow, you post a perfectly reasonable but controversial opinion on a "democratic" board...

and the floodgates of hate swing open wide.

Proof that the military worship in this country is completely out of control.

No wonder we can't have a serious discussion about ending the stranglehold the military has on our country.

[a11ig8r]

309. I used to think that rampant militarism was the realm of Republicans

Not so, apparently. I think a lot of it is coming from Viet Nam era veterans who feel that were chided for "losing a war".

[obamanut2012]

316. The "Old Guard" threads of a couple months ago showed me that

People went bonkers over those.

[L0oniX]

339. +1 DU = We don't discuss what we object to. We just insult like school bullies.

[mike_c]

346. "you suck" has become the new normal on DU....

Personal attacks, emotional, reactionary thinking, and general nastiness greet just about every thought-provoking post on DU these days.

[OldDem2012]

354. So, if you disagree with part or all of the OP's post, you're part of the "floodgates of hate"?.....

....Really?

What happened to that "serious discussion" you mentioned in your post?

[stevenleser]

368. I dont find attacks on 18-21 year old kids who dont know any better generally compelling.

Nor do I find opportunistic attacks on any young people who risk their lives for us compelling. I attack Republicans when they attack police and firefighters, and will happily attack anyone on the right or left who attack the military.

Our military is mostly composed of patriotic 18-21 year old kids willing to risk their lives for what they believe is freedom.

We can argue about whether what the government is using them for is right or just or even legal. That doesnt change what these kids are doing and willing to risk.

In fact, the fault for how the military is used lies with the folks who elect the government, also known as "We the people". If you vote in the US and pay taxes in the US, you are as responsible for how the military is used as an E1-E3 enlisted person. If you have been voting for a while, you are probably more responsible than any enlisted person.

If you are willing to risk your life in my name in the fire department, military or law enforcement, I will honor you. Anyone who doesnt like that can kiss where the sun doesnt shine.

[NCTraveler]

315. In an attempt to be agreeable.

"I do not think our military should be as big as it is

I do not think we need bases in Germany, Scotland or Diego Garcia"

I support this.

[Mosaic]

320. Bravo! Agree Totally!

I despise the ground, far from worship it. Again Bravo!

[99Forever]

326. I agree.

We don't have "defense department," we have a feed the 1% our treasure and children department.

It WILL destroy this Nation, exactly as the Last real Republican predicted.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

333. What the rah-rah military supporters forget is that

the Soviet Union fell apart partly because it devoted all its resources to military spending and trying to maintain an empire.

Those who haven't traveled much (or only to Third World resorts) have no idea how far behind we are with respect to the countries that do not feel compelled to maintain a large military establishment.

Note that Norway and the UK both have North Sea oil. Britain thinks deep down that it still controls or ought to control 1/3 of the world and maintains the world's fourth largest military with the world's 22nd largest population, and despite its many charms, its public infrastructure, inequality, percentage of children in poverty, (and lack of social mobility) are among the worst in Europe. Norway maintains a small military for defensive purposes and devotes its North Sea oil money to enhancing the quality of life domestically. It shows.

[99Forever]

338. Every empire in history....

.. has the same fate. They always over-extend their reach and doom themselves. ALWAYS. The USA has reached that point. It will collapse, the only question is when.

[raouldukelives]

336. Well, it's a good job with benefits.

All the sentiments about defending freedom and assuring America remains an operational society are obviously ridiculous when comparing the "war" we are engaged in to historical efforts to defend ourselves.
They call themselves "volunteers" when they are compensated. Without said compensation I have no doubts the amount of "volunteers" would sharply drop.
On the flip side if this nation ever were seriously under threat I think even some of the most pacifist liberals you can find would join up in a heartbeat to prevent us from turning into Foxconn. If of course that was something we actually wanted to prevent.

[Rex]

340. Wow, got some heat from this post didn't ya?

As a vet, I don't worship the ground our military walks on either.

So what...

[treestar]

341. I don't worship the ground they walk on

But they are necessary. We cannot possibly do away with them. And once this country goes to war, we are all responsible for that decision, made via officials we elected, and so in those cases they are not murderers, but are doing their duty. We can't dodge responsibility for the fact that our government went to a war by shifting the blame to the troops themselves.

[arely staircase]

343. i'm sure they feel the same about you

as do i

[SomethingFishy]

344. I come from a long line of soldiers...

All of them.. dead. 3 generations of my family grew up without a father. The government would call that a "proud heritage".. I call it fucked up.


I don't know, maybe if we stopped bombing people and started feeding them....

[L0oniX]

349. [phone]

[mike_c]

345. agree, 100 percent....

Well said.

[Old Troop]

347. Well

I spent 27 years on active duty as an infantry officer. It was a career distinguished by remarkable mediocrity punctuated by moments of shrieking cowardice. But that's not important now. There are a couple of points that I'd like to respectfully make:
1. Both service members and welfare (for want of a better term) recipients receive most of their income from government. Soldiers, however, work to earn that income from the government; often extremely long hours in inhospitable environments. Much of what they do is very hazardous - working on the flight deck of an aircraft carrier for instance or switching out the power pack for a Bradley or Abrams under field conditions. Serving in battle increases those hazards, of course, exponentially.

2. Recommending that service members refuse civilian directives to conduct combat operations has a flip side. If the military arrogates to itself the decision to refuse to go to war, it also has arrogated the authority to decide to go to war when, in its opinion, civilian authority has failed to properly address a threat. In that dismissal of civilian authority lies the seeds of a coup.

Whether you love or hate the military is a personal opinion that is protected by the constitution. All military members swear or affirm an oath to support and defend that constitution; not to fight for a specific political figure or an institution, but to defend the basic law of the United States. My experience was that soldiers, when they thought about it, took that oath at face value.

[PufPuf23]

348. The military budget should be cut by 75% and arms aid or sales to other countries should be illegal.

I respect Draftees.

Entrance to the service academies should be by draft of qualifying students.

[mokawanis]

363. You spend a lot of time on RW forums?

Had to ask.

Some of us "arrogant liberal assholes" just don't buy into the notion of blind patriotism and the ridiculous attitude that supporting the troops means we have to support wars like the one in Iraq.

[Paladin]

361. I Watched "Seven Days In May" On Turner Classic Movies, Today.

Those of you on this thread who are registering such problems with the civilian administration of this country's military forces could really use a viewing of this great flick from 1964.

[Pretzel_Warrior]

362. Great! Glad you said this. Military worship

Is actually a sign of a repressive society.

[underpants]

369. I don't think that having served gives me any greater right to comment but.....

The thing that pisses me off is the militarism of every single stinking holiday.
The 4th of July is about Americana it is not about the military.
Thanksgiving "look ins" on the "the troops" are corrupting. This is a end of harvest festival - it has NO connection to anything military.
"Remember the troops on Christmas" - well I spent three Christmases in Germany and do you know why? BECAUSE I SIGNED UP. Don't pity someone for their own choices.

Don't even get me STARTED on Arbor Day

[lutefisk]

375. Don't forget the militarism of sporting events

Nothing like experiencing an ear-splitting flyover of US military killing machines to begin an afternoon at Lambeau field. I, for one, resent the intrusion...

[stevenleser]

376. Three comments of yours hidden, your transparency page exposed...

[Amaya]

400. I agree with you

When I look at this thread it's truly scary how brainwashed Americans are about the military.
The military are not in any sense of the word "heroes"
It's a volunteer job , they chose it. They are not giving us "freedom" .. Such bullshit.
The military doesn't spread "freedom". They just making sure no one fucks with the American empire and it's objectives.

As for the drafted vets, I truly feel they are of a different breed of military. I respect them.

[DissidentVoice]

403. What is your axe to grind?

All you do is give the far right grist for their bullshit lines that "Democrats hate the military, Democrats aren't patriotic," which they've used (too) well ever since the Reagan era.

Your arguments about overseas bases have validity. However, it sure as hell isn't the average Soldier, Sailor, Airman, Marine or Coastie who MAKES policy on that. A common saying we had about such things was "that's above my paygrade."

Be proactive with your concerns. Don't disrespect those who have chosen to serve or have been conscripted.

Write to:

The Honorable Leon E. Panetta
Secretary of Defense
1400 Defense Pentagon
Washington, DC 20301-1400

[7wo7rees]

404. Thanks Taverner for a timely message! Peace on Earth!

[zappaman]

410. Gee, if I did not know better

I would think you are posting these lame OPs just to make DU look stupid.
Unrec.

[Moses2SandyKoufax]

411. Why the fuck do you care

how DU looks? Who cares? These threads are a real eye opener. They have gone to great lengths exposing various mindsets of certain people who have a tremendous sense of entitlement, and their reactions when they don't receive the reverence and worship they feel they're owed.

[DissidentVoice]

412. Why do I care?

Because I did serve in the military and I'll be damned if I let anyone try to shame me for it.

I don't have a sense of "entitlement" nor do I want to be "worshipped."

Just a "thanks for serving" is quite sufficient for me.

[zappaman]

413. "Why the fuck do you care"

[SlimJimmy]

416. And I will fight to my last breath against your bashing of

those who proudly serve. Enjoy your stay in America courtesy of those same folks.