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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsSo Why Would Zimmerman Not Necessarily Have Deserved a Swollen Nose and Bruises?
Coverage has seemed to focus on the fact that perhaps Tryavon Martin fought with Zimmerman and caused him some injuries.
Well why should Martin have NOT fought with Zimmerman? Zimmerman obviously disobeyed the instructions of law enforcement by exiting his vehicle and pursuing Martin. Zimmerman had absolutely no authority to detain or question Martin.
So any normal person who is accosted by some cop want-to-be like Zimmerman is perfectly justified in defending themselves. Why Zimmerman seems to be the only person in this situation entitled to "stand your ground" laws and Martin is labeled a criminal if he fought Zimmerman and perhaps inflicted wounds upon him baffles me. Was Martin not entitled to "stand your ground" protection?
Zimmerman may have been neighborhood watch but that does not confer any authority on him other than the right to call 911. He did that and then did exactly the opposite of what he was told to do. The 911 operators obviously know that people like Zimmerman are not trained to handle these situations and certainly have no legal authority to act in these situations.
So if Martin did react to a non-uniformed person who could not identify himself as law enforcement and approached him by getting into a physical altercation then so what? It seems very likely Zimmerman provoked any sort of altercation. I highly doubt the guy on the way home with Skittles and Iced Tea was looking for a fight. I find it much more likely Zimmerman, the guy who flunked tests to become law enforcement and was patrolling his gated community with a gun was looking to feel his penis wasn't too small.
Someone is going to have to explain to me why Martin didn't have a right to defend himself and perhaps inflict some wounds on Zimmerman.
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DiverDave
(4,886 posts)the talk of 'injuries' is just a freaking LIE.
He wasnt in any scuffle.
The footage of him getting out of the cop car shows NOTHING, not even grass stains.
It's a right wing lie.
TorchTheWitch
(11,065 posts)Back to that useless grainy footage after he was cleaned up. The police report said he had minor injuries and EMT's saw to him. Multiple witness reported that there was a physical altercation.
Just quit this silliness and admit there was indeed a scuffle and he had some minor injuries for heaven's sake. The point it that his minor injuries doesn't justify his shooting Martin, and his chasing and accosting Martin gave Martin every right to defend himself from the nutter. Zimmerman's getting some minor injuries out of it is his own damn fault.
FarPoint
(12,356 posts)Trayvon was stalked and murdered by a gun nut. I so hope Trayvon got a few licks in while he fought for his life against a racist gun nut armed and looking to assassinate a black child walking home from the store.
loyalkydem
(1,678 posts)you will never be able to convince the Zimmerman apologist.
FarPoint
(12,356 posts)Don't let gun nuts bully you! I know what we saw in Receiving at the County Jail. No facial trauma for Zimmerman.
librarylu
(503 posts)....like Trayvon provoked the situation by walking while black.
How dare he visit his girlfriend and try to walk home!
dballance
(5,756 posts)Or was it just cold enough to pull the hood up? I live in Oregon. I regularly pull up the hood because of rain. So far it has not made me a murderous felon.
tavalon
(27,985 posts)I think you just hit the bullseye.
orpupilofnature57
(15,472 posts)Does a person authorized to police the community run the risk of injury or death ? Usurpers, which is all that ass heads like Zimmerman are, wanting to dispense the law as if that's provided for in the 2nd .
dballance
(5,756 posts)Certainly many of them probably use it as a reason they should be allowed to wield guns.
I really think that most of them have some sort of personality disorder. It is reported Zimmerman flunked tests to enter law enforcement. Apparently those tests are doing some good weeding out people.
It is unfortunate though that those tests don't disqualify them from buying guns and becoming a cop want-to-be. I am afraid that if anyone takes Wayne LaDerrier seriously and starts to put armed volunteers into schools we'll end up with many Zimmermans with guns in our schools. Penis problems where the length of their penis and judgement is far shorter than the length of their barrels.
obamanut2012
(26,071 posts)And, even if he HAD been an official community watch guy, they are explicitly NOT ALLOWED to police the community. Ever.
Zimmerman was a vigilante.
uponit7771
(90,335 posts)orpupilofnature57
(15,472 posts)Usurper
Puregonzo1188
(1,948 posts)be on his way to death row right now after a sham of trial.
loyalkydem
(1,678 posts)Trayvon would be facing first degree murder charges and his case would have never got national attention.
orpupilofnature57
(15,472 posts)
aandegoons
(473 posts)And we wouldn't have had to read all those post back then on why Trayvon needed to be shot. The gungeon would have stayed in their little hidey-hole waiting to champion the next shooter.
Scuba
(53,475 posts)
hobbit709
(41,694 posts)uponit7771
(90,335 posts)obamanut2012
(26,071 posts)
vaberella
(24,634 posts)michigandem58
(1,044 posts)Black folks can't throw a punch in self defense, yet white folks should feel free to shoot any agressor.
Bette Noir
(3,581 posts)It took guts for Trayvon to punch Zimmerman. Good for him, to defend himself.
Tutonic
(2,522 posts)gun towards the person. The blow back force of the bullet exiting the chamber would push the gun back toward the shooter. This would almost always happen when the shooter is on top of the person. Look at where the nose is bruised on Zimmerman--pretty high up--likely that the gun hit his nose and not Martin. Angela Corey must know this.
Hoyt
(54,770 posts)Trayvon Martin would be rotting in jail now, but at least alive.
Whatever Martin might have done defending himself, Zimmerman deserved.
I Agree....the moment that he disregarded the dispatchers statement that they did not need him to follow Trayvon is the Moment it turned into a premeditated Murder...Trayvon Martin is the only one of the two that came under the "stand your ground" laws...protection
Buzz Clik
(38,437 posts)Martin was the scary one. He was wearing a hoodie. Zimmerman was merely chasing and threatening Martin.
orpupilofnature57
(15,472 posts)
ProgressiveProfessor
(22,144 posts)Verbal provocation alone is rarely justification for physical violence under the law.
It is not true that Zimmerman disobeyed law enforcement. A 9-11 operator is not an LEO. What he did was disregard the request/suggestion.
While Zimmerman had no authority to detain, but you can speak to anyone you want to in public. They have no requirement to listen, answer, acknowledge or comply.
Unless it can be shown that Zimmerman touched him first, brandished his pistol, or other overt threat, that Martin assaulted him works for, not against Zimmerman under the law.
The burden is on Zimmerman is to show that he was in reasonable fear of GBI or death at the hands of Martin. Despite all of the above, it is going to be a high hurdle. IMO the shooting was clearly unjustified and he should be convicted.
orpupilofnature57
(15,472 posts)he should be convicted. You also have the right to tell someone to go fuck themselves when they approach you with conversation. Simply trying to detain a person without authority is against the law. PERIOD .
ProgressiveProfessor
(22,144 posts)Like I said, the hurdle of reasonable fear of GBI or death is going to be where Zimmerman fails and so he will be convicted.
graham4anything
(11,464 posts)too bad it wasn't the other way around and Zimmerman would be dead as Zimmerman put Mr. Martin's life in danger and Mr. Martin only would have been protecting himself.
Zimmerman should fry.
This case is so obvious, as the 9-1-1- call is proof that his life was NOT in danger and he was told to back off and didn't
nothing else matters.
Vigilante kills innocent man coward style here.Zim guilty.
Evergreen Emerald
(13,069 posts)Indeed the hold-your-ground law was created for just that situation: a menacing man with a gun follows him, runs up on him attacking him as he walks home. Trayvon has the right to protect himself by any means.
The fact that the defendant was injured tells me that after Trayvon hung up the phone, he defended his life.
In this case the defense and gun nuts are twisting the law to protect the attacker.
exboyfil
(17,863 posts)At best Zimmerman has a Dooley case. Perhaps the forensics will show more (such as Zimmerman on top which makes it Murder). Dooley ended in a conviction for manslaughter, and that is the best that should happen for Zimmerman even if Martin threw the first punch after being accosted in the dark by an adult who had come out of his car. Dooley was jumped after turning to leave (the "victims" own daughter testified to this). He may have brandished his gun before the physical encounter (testimony differs on this). The victim did pursue him before the physical altercation and laid his hands on Dooley first.
http://www.tampabay.com/news/courts/criminal/jury-finds-trevor-dooley-guilty-in-manslaughter-case/1262347
"They (a couple which watched the altercation) testified last week they saw Dooley flip up his T-shirt, revealing a gun in his waistband, as he cursed James. They said Dooley then turned and headed home, but James spun him around and tried to grab the gun."
"The skateboarder, Spencer Arthur, also watched, stunned. He didn't see Dooley flash a gun but said he saw him pull out the weapon as he spun around."
"Danielle could hardly remember anything. She clutched a toy bunny named Monica as she testified. She has been in counseling for two years. She said she only remembered Dooley trying to go home."
krispos42
(49,445 posts)He had every right to be where he was, on a public sidewalk.
I'd LOVE to see Zimmerman's injuries attributed to SYG laws before they toss him in the clink.
ArcticFox
(1,249 posts)He with the lightest skin has the highest right.
Maybe make trumps female too. I understand a woman could claim no benefit of the law when she shot a ceiling.
Unfortunately, I am serious.
Vox Moi
(546 posts)Every time I hear people defending Zimmerman this quote comes to mind.
Isn't it clear that Zimmerman was in pursuit?
How in hell can a man in pursuit claim he was standing his ground?
rrneck
(17,671 posts)he probably stalked Martin with the lights on bright for a while and pissed him off. Nice move Zim, fuck with somebody in your car for a while then get out and confront them for no reason. That rates an ass whipping right there.
Lizzie Poppet
(10,164 posts)And I'm talking about Zimmerman's actions before the shooting...
Zimmerman continued to follow Martin even after hearing the explicit advice of the dispatcher not to do so. He exited the vehicle to approach Martin, and I would be very surprised indeed if that approach were anything other than confrontational. Essentially, Zimmerman started the conflict, and that's critical. Martin wasn't looking for trouble; Zimmerman was. Moreover, Martin believing he needed to defend himself is a perfectly reasonable reaction to the circumstances, and when faced with a much bulkier opponent, getting the first punch in can make a big difference. Martin can't be faulted for taking the first swing, if that's how it happened.
It may well be the case that as the fight went against him, Zimmerman was legitimately in fear of serious injury and even death. Normally that would legitimize using deadly force. But not when you start the damned fight, it isn't!
Rex
(65,616 posts)and the media. Initially, all this was supposed to just 'go away' so that the Zimmerman's could get on with their lives. The fact that realtime tapes contradicted claims of assault, then news that the detective on the case dropped his pursuit of a homicide charge (when asked to)...made this case be re-examined by the FBI. HAD NONE of this happen, that poor boy would have been denied justice. I have no doubt of this.
IOW, it is really much bigger then 'he said, she said' and could cost a lot of jobs-careers. A lot of people have much riding on this case and the official investigation imo.
Demo_Chris
(6,234 posts)GZ followed this boy on a dark rainy night in his vehicle.
TM walked away.
GZ continued to pursue him in his vehicle, slowly driving after him.
TM ran away. He was scared of the stranger behind him.
GZ then exited his vehicle and ran after him. He continued to do so after being advised to stop by dispatch.
All of this would create a reasonable fear in TMs mind. He clearly felt like he was in danger (it turns out he was correct).
The critical question:
What steps, if any, did GZ take to reassure TM that he was not a threat. According to GZ the answer is none. Lacking this, TM had more than satisfied any requirements for self-defense. He was in reasonable fear for his life -- as it turns out he was correct to be afraid. Looking beyond this, GZs story simply does not add up. The times are wrong, and his statements to officers do not fit with the evidence or what he reported to dispatch.
It is MY BELIEF (note, opinion here) that almost everything GZ has reported about that night, from the call to dispatch to the post-shooting interviews, are all lies. I BELIEVE, based upon the statements GZ made to dispatch, that he intended to kill someone. I believe he was setting the stage for a "justified" shoot while on the telephone. Let's review his critical statements in the 911 call, in order. My comments in parentheses:
There’s a real suspicious guy.
This guy looks like he’s up to no good or he’s on drugs or something...
(GZ establishing motive: TM is on drugs)
He looks black.
He’s here now … he’s just staring.
Now he’s staring at me.
(GZ is setting the stage: The black drugged out hoodlum is sizing up his next victim.)
Now he’s coming toward me.
(GZ establishing cause for fear: the drugged up hoodlum is heading his way!)
He’s got his hands in his waist band.
(Holy crap George, watch out!)
Something’s wrong with him.
Yep, he’s coming to check me out.
He’s got something in his hands.
( Shit George, is it a gun! Zimmerman has almost finished laying the groundwork for a "justified" self-defense shooting...[/b)]
See if you can get an officer over here.
I don’t know what his deal is.
How long until you get an officer over here?
( And there it is. Poor Zimmerman is frightened. Where's the help?! Please send help! He's laid the foundation, now to blow this guy away. Except...)
He’s running.
( Poor George. All that work setting the stage, ruined.)
Zimmerman went through that entire 911 call setting up his shoot. In my opinion he planned to gun down Trayvon right there on the street. Only two things marred this otherwise wonderful show. The first is that Tugboat wanted to sound cool and in-control; the second was that the 911 dispatcher didn't play along with him. I suspect that this dispatcher felt something was off. He was not giving the kinds of advice you might expect if he believed what Zimmerman was telling him. Advice such as: get away from this drugged up guy who might have just drawn a weapon and is now heading your way.
And of course ALL of this falls apart once the facts become more clear. Zimmerman was unable to describe to the investigating detectives what TM was doing that led him to believe that TM was on drugs, he was unable to describe what TM was doing that inspired him to say "Something is wrong with him." In fact, we now know that Trayvon was NOT on drugs, and so far as anyone can tell nothing was wrong with him. These are critical points. CRITICAL. They set the stage for everything that follows, and if Zimmerman remembered nothing else he would remember this. He doesn't remember because it was an invention, he was just checking off his self-defense list.
I don't want to belabor this, but it's important.
His "belief" that Trayvon was on drugs, and that something was wrong with him, are the theoretical reasons for everything that followed. This was the reason he was calling the police in the first place, the reason he began following this poor kid around. He followed because something was wrong with him, he was on drugs, he was up to no good.
Only none of that is true. George cannot describe what led him to believe these things because it was an invention. Trayvon wasn't on drugs, wasn't singing in the rain or doing backflips down main street, he was walking home from the store while talking to his girlfriend on the phone. He was an innocent kid, and Zimmerman is quite possibly a psychopath.
The problem here is that the Limbaugh / Fox news right has politicized this case. But I am still cautiously optimistic that this guy is going to prison.
dballance
(5,756 posts)I believe GZ certainly has penis issues and needed to try exert his "power" and "control" over another person. I believe the situation escalated beyond what GZ expected and he reacted in a totally inappropriate manner.
There are a lot of "ifs" here. If GZ had done what he was instructed to do by dispatch and wait in his car and if GZ wasn't toting a weapon he should not have been carrying on a simple neighborhood watch things would likely have turned out differently and Martin would likely still be alive.
But GZ made conscious decisions. He decided to carry a weapon on neighborhood watch. A watch where it is still in dispute that he was actually an authorized neighborhood watch person. He decided to ignore instructions from the 911 dispatcher who is arguably more well trained than GZ in this type of situation. He obviously approached an innocent kid and confronted him in some manner.
I'm not a DA but I think that usually when people make so many conscious decisions that lead to another person's death it results in at least a manslaughter charge.
Demo_Chris
(6,234 posts)First, remember that it is very likely that the things he described are very likely not true. In any case, JUST consider what he was saying. Not what ultimately happened. In fact, for the purpose of this mental excercise, assume that nothing else did happen.
Does it not sound like a person going down a mental list, checking off bullet points (pun intended) for a justified self-defense claim?
* Black guy acting suspitious
* He's on drugs! Something is wrong with him!
* Oh no, he's spotted me, he's checking me out!
* He's coming this way!
* He's reaching in his waistband!
* He's pulled something out, and I can't see what it is!
* Please send help!
This was essentially what Zimmerman said and in the order that he said it. He had laid the entire groundwork to gun him down on the spot. After all, it was dark and raining and he "couldn't see" what Trayvon had in his hands. Had he blown him away we wouldn't even know his name.
But Trayvon ran.
Obviously no one can PROVE any of this. None the less, when I look at what Zimmerman said, the order he said it, and then consider that it is quite likely NONE of it ever happened, my opinion is that Zimmerman was planning to kill. That's what it looks like to me.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)1) you believed the person was high on drugs, and capable of any kind of violent, erratic behavior.
2) you need to believe they are armed, and a direct immediate threat to you.
According to my cop friends, you need to have both reasons in play when you shoot an unarmed person. George had to know this too. Like the guy with the hammer- except he had a hammer. If he wasn't swinging it and moving toward the cop, they could not have shot him.
And you are completely right, his phone call was a set up to cover his ass in case things went bad.
Where he fucked up was, telling 911 he thought he was dangerous - reaching for "something in his waistband" and then following him.
He tried to say he later found himself under immediate threat during their scuffle, but that was something he initiated himself by leaving the car and admittedly following the kid.
Demo_Chris
(6,234 posts)Zimmerman was all but telling the dispatcher: 'I am being confronted by a doped up black guy with a gun.'
Had Trayvon not run when he did, I suspect Zimmerman's next words would have been him screaming "Drop your weapon!" followed by the sound of a shot.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)I think because he'd gotten very good at the he said/ she said thing, and knew local cops, that he could really push things and "apprehend" this kid and lie through his teeth about what the kid did. Because he would have likely had his word taken over Trayvon's.
I think a lot of people should not have guns. They totally overestimate how good or responsible they actually are.
Quixote1818
(28,930 posts)nt
