THE ROLE OF ANTI-DEPRESSANTS IN MASS KILLINGS - Michael Moore on THE REAL LESSON OF COLUMBINE...

[Indi Guy]

This discussion thread was locked as off-topic by HappyMe (a host of the General Discussion forum).

Aside from the obvious connection of guns, let's look at the next obvious factor common to today's mass murderers.

Moore:
“In Bowling for Columbine,” we never really came up with the answer in terms of why this happened. I think we did a good job of exposing [that] all the reasons that were given were a bunch of B.S. ….And none of it really made any sense. That’s why I believe there should be an investigation in terms of what…prescribed pharmaceuticals these kids were on….

“It just would be shocking…to the millions of parents who prescribe this for their kids if it was finally explained to them, if this is the case, that this perhaps occurred for no other reason other than because of these prescriptions. “Imagine what that would do, imagine how people would totally re-think things – grasping for every little straw they can to explain why something like Columbine happens, when in fact it may be nothing more than this. How else do you explain two otherwise decent kids, very smart, no history of violence to other kids in the school – why them, why did this happen? It’s an extremely legitimate question to pose, and it demands an investigation.”

•Dekalb, Illinois – February 14, 2008: 27-year-old Steven Kazmierczak shot and killed five people and wounded 16 others before killing himself in a Northern Illinois University auditorium. According to his girlfriend, he had recently been taking Prozac, Xanax and Ambien. Toxicology results showed that he still had trace amount of Xanax in his system.

•Omaha, Nebraska – December 5, 2007: 19-year-old Robert Hawkins killed eight people and wounded five before committing suicide in an Omaha mall. Hawkins’ friend told CNN that the gunman was on antidepressants, and autopsy results confirmed he was under the influence of the “anti-anxiety” drug Valium.

•Jokela, Finland – November 7, 2007: 18-year-old Finnish gunman Pekka-Eric Auvinen had been taking antidepressants before he killed eight people and wounded a dozen more at Jokela High School in southern Finland, then committed suicide.

•Cleveland, Ohio – October 10, 2007: 14-year-old Asa Coon stormed through his school with a gun in each hand, shooting and wounding four before taking his own life. Court records show Coon had been placed on the antidepressant Trazodone.

•Blacksburg, Virginia – April 16, 2007: 23-year-old Seung Hui Cho shot to death 32 students and faculty of Virginia Tech, wounding 17 more, and then killing himself. He had received prior mental health treatment, however his mental health records remained sealed.

•Red Lake, Minnesota – March 2005: 16-year-old Jeff Weise, on Prozac, shot and killed his grandparents, then went to his school on the Red Lake Indian Reservation where he shot dead 7 students and a teacher, and wounded 7 before killing himself.

•Greenbush, New York – February 2004: 16-year-old Jon Romano strolled into his high school in east Greenbush and opened fire with a shotgun. Special education teacher Michael Bennett was hit in the leg. Romano had been taking “medication for depression”.

•El Cajon, California – March 22, 2001: 18-year-old Jason Hoffman, on the antidepressants Celexa and Effexor, opened fire on his classmates, wounding three students and two teachers at Granite Hills High School.

•Williamsport, Pennsylvania – March 7, 2001: 14-year-old Elizabeth Bush was taking the antidepressant Prozac when she shot at fellow students, wounding one.

•Conyers, Georgia – May 20, 1999: 15-year-old T.J. Solomon was being treated with antidepressants when he opened fire on and wounded six of his classmates.

•Columbine, Colorado – April 20, 1999: 18-year-old Eric Harris and his accomplice, Dylan Klebold, killed 12 students and a teacher and wounded 26 others before killing themselves. Harris was on the antidepressant Luvox. Klebold’s medical records remain sealed.

•Notus, Idaho – April 16, 1999: 15-year-old Shawn Cooper fired two shotgun rounds in his school, narrowly missing students. He was taking a prescribed SSRI antidepressant and Ritalin.

•Springfield, Oregon – May 21, 1998: 15-year-old Kip Kinkel murdered his parents and then proceeded to school where he opened fire on students in the cafeteria, killing two and wounding 22. Kinkel had been taking the antidepressant Prozac.

Full - http://psychiatricfraud.org/2011/04/the-real-lesson-of-columbine-psychiatric-drugs-induce-violence/

[Betsy Ross]

1. The "evidence" is beyond stupid.

Just maybe the drugs were'nt working. There are probably a lot more people alive because of medications than dead.

[Indi Guy]

2. Maybe...

...some people shouldn't be prescribed these drugs?

[Liberty Belle]

5. These drugs CAUSE psychosis and suicidal thoughts.

We've always had mental illness and depression. We've never had so many mass murders before and it's not just kids. I wonder how many of the murder-suicides, of which we've had a bunch in our area recently, may also be induced by people taking these mind-altering drugs?

In our area we had a 10-yaer-old stab his 12-year-old playmate to daeth. Neighbors said he was on psychiatric drugs and Mom was worried about the side effects he was having.

Way too many kids are placed on drugs who should not be.

When my daughter was young a teacher wanted her on Ritalin because she had trouble sitting still in class (at age 6!) She got into ice skating about that time and the coach suggested she practice before school. Problem was immediately solve d- on the days she skated there were no behavioral issues. I tell every parent with a so-called hyperactive child to get them into a before-school sport.

Increasingly links have been found between certain foods/nutrients and mental health. There are psychiatrists who have gotten people completely off mental health drugs simply by changing what they eat. Shortages of certain vitamins and too much sugar and junk food can actually make some mental illnesses worse. This should be tried first before any drugs are considered. Drugs should be only used in extreme cases such as when someone is acting psychotic or suicidal, where counseling and diet changes have been tried and did not work, and perhaps in cases where there is a history of serious mental illness.

I also wonder about GMOs in our foods....these are fairly new and known to cause all sorts of serious health problems; could mental instability be among them? Kids are big consumers of cereals which are made with GMO corn, for instance.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

26. You mention GMOs and destroy your line of reasoning

You are just wondering around speculating. Think. GMOs are a recent phenomenon. Massacres are as old as the hills. People were just less effective with knives and hunting rifles.

Its just that the media prominence and 24/7 coverage turns more disturbed people to the idea of "going out in a blaze of glory" in their twisted minds or taking more with them. The much higher availability of assault rifles, semi-auto pistols, and high capacity magazines means that the people with the intent are able to kill higher numbers.

They go in with three guns instead of a single six-shooter. So instead of killing one person and wounding two and being a two-day wonder on local TV, they kill twenty and become a three-day wonder on national TV.

GMOs may or may not have other problems, like allergies, but layoff the tinfoil speculation about much more because it is just speculation that loses all credibility.

There is not any more mental instability among kids these days. There is over-prescribing and over-diagnosis and kids do face greater pressure from cyber-bullying and middle class hover parents with money to hover and push.

[dkf]

32. The Neuroscience of the Gut Strange but true: the brain is shaped by bacteria in the digestive tract

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=the-neuroscience-of-gut

People may advise you to listen to your gut instincts: now research suggests that your gut may have more impact on your thoughts than you ever realized. Scientists from the Karolinska Institute in Sweden and the Genome Institute of Singapore led by Sven Pettersson recently reported in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences that normal gut flora, the bacteria that inhabit our intestines, have a significant impact on brain development and subsequent adult behavior.

Moreover, these bacteria have been implicated in the development of neurological and behavioral disorders. For example, gut bacteria may have an influence on the body’s use of vitamin B6, which in turn has profound effects on the health of nerve and muscle cells. They modulate immune tolerance and, because of this, they may have an influence on autoimmune diseases, such as multiple sclerosis. They have been shown to influence anxiety-related behavior, although there is controversy regarding whether gut bacteria exacerbate or ameliorate stress related anxiety responses. In autism and other pervasive developmental disorders, there are reports that the specific bacterial species present in the gut are altered and that gastrointestinal problems exacerbate behavioral symptoms. A newly developed biochemical test for autism is based, in part, upon the end products of bacterial metabolism.


The Effect of Glyphosate on Potential Pathogens and Beneficial Members of Poultry Microbiota In Vitro.

AuthorsShehata AA, et al. Show all Journal
Curr Microbiol. 2012 Dec 9.

Institute of Bacteriology and Mycology, Faculty of Veterinary Medicine, Leipzig University, An den Tierkliniken 29, 04103, Leipzig, Germany, [e-mail].

Abstract

The use of glyphosate modifies the environment which stresses the living microorganisms. The aim of the present study was to determine the real impact of glyphosate on potential pathogens and beneficial members of poultry microbiota in vitro. The presented results evidence that the highly pathogenic bacteria as Salmonella Entritidis, Salmonella Gallinarum, Salmonella Typhimurium, Clostridium perfringens and Clostridium botulinum are highly resistant to glyphosate. However, most of beneficial bacteria as Enterococcus faecalis, Enterococcus faecium, Bacillus badius, Bifidobacterium adolescentis and Lactobacillus spp. were found to be moderate to highly susceptible. Also Campylobacter spp. were found to be susceptible to glyphosate. A reduction of beneficial bacteria in the gastrointestinal tract microbiota by ingestion of glyphosate could disturb the normal gut bacterial community. Also, the toxicity of glyphosate to the most prevalent Enterococcus spp. could be a significant predisposing factor that is associated with the increase in C. botulinum-mediated diseases by suppressing the antagonistic effect of these bacteria on clostridia.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/23224412/

Roundup/Glyphosate Background Materials
http://www.monsanto.com/products/Pages/roundup-safety-background-materials.aspx

[rainin]

43. I can't believe you posted this.

People are not ready for this. You should break it down into layman's English and make its own thread. The connection between mental illness and the gut is an important one. You didn't say, but perhaps you are aware that severe mental illness like schizophrenia, depression, bipolar, and other brain disorders have been successfully treated by addressing vitamin deficiencies and gut disorders. Doctors (a few, cutting-edge doctors) have discovered that healthy guts process drugs differently than unhealthy ones. It makes sense, of course, if you think about it.

We'll never understand this if we are unwilling to consider the part that these drugs play in incidents such as these. I hoped at the time that Columbine was going to be the incident that woke people up to at least take a look at anti-depressants. Some did, like Michael Moore. But most ignored it. Maybe this time will be different.

[dkf]

44. I posted it the original article a few days ago...

I must say it felt like a huge discovery to me, almost as if I needed to rethink everything.

The implications for how we eat, how we take care of ourselves, the prospects for medicine and potential cures is mind boggling. It gave me hope that we can solve our health problems yet made me concerned about our food supply.

But it's all falling into place.

Seeing the movie "Food, Inc." was also huge.

The point of the post above was to move the GMO talk out of "Tin-foil" territory back to the realm of science where it does belong. I hope the person I responded to gets the gist of it but you are right it could have gone over their head, especially the roundup/Monsanto/GMO connection.

[rainin]

45. You really need to summarize this in layman's terms.

Most people won't know what they're reading.

[Major Nikon]

29. The worst worst school massacre in history was in 1927

Grant Duwe, a criminologist with the Minnesota Department of Corrections who has written a history of mass murders in America, said that while mass shootings rose between the 1960s and the 1990s, they actually dropped in the 2000s. And mass killings actually reached their peak in 1929, according to his data. He estimates that there were 32 in the 1980s, 42 in the 1990s and 26 in the first decade of the century.

http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/rise-mass-killings-impact-huge-article-1.1221062#ixzz2GXAGa9Hf

In 1929 the US was mostly an agrarian society where people ate very little processed sugars or processed anything for that matter. So it's just as reasonable to argue that the food people eat today, including GMO, processed sugar, pesticide ladened produce, etc. is responsible for less mass murder.

[FarPoint]

56. Blah, blah blah...

right wing...NRA jargon....What a way to minimize the facts of our community crisis. Nothing would get resolved with this antiquated thinking.

[veganlush]

57. Yes, the Mad Bomber Of Bath, Michigan

44 dead at the hands of an early version of a of tea-bag. Kehoe was mad at the people of Bath because they voted for a consolidated school that meant a property tax increase. Kehoe and his wife had no children (thankfully), and the fact that his taxes went up just blew the failed farmers mind. He took out his rage on the people of Bath by killing their children. Some families lost more than one child. If all of his bombs had worked, the death toll would have been much higher.

[green for victory]

17. the "evidence" is not beyond stupid

it's all here, as credible as the sun in july
US National Institutes of Health:
Antidepressants and Violence-problems at the Interface of
Medicine & Law
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1564177/

Michael Moore Live:

Doctor plus Congressional Testimony
H Waxman@4:05

Sourced Database: http://ssristories.com/index.php

There is more than enough evidence for immediate hearings.

Now.

[mettamega]

25. thank you

thank you for adding these you tube clips - such an important issue -

[napoleon_in_rags]

33. Yeah, this article is pretty irresponsible.

Its true, there are sober minded articles from scientific sources that show benefits of getting off psych meds long term for mental health issues, and not over-prescribing them. Often people don't need them, and even when they do, like a crutch, you eventually should find a way stop using it to recover fully.

But right after you break your leg, you damn well need that crutch.

That's what the anti-psychiatric and anti psych med superheroes don't get: The way this stuff works short term for people in crisis. The risk is when people ignore the guy who was about to blow his brains out before getting meds, or the person who was wandering the streets screaming at voices before being stabilised with meds... in order to focus on people who didn't really need to be on them in the first place.

What I really wish these people would do is volunteer with severely mentally ill people. Once they've spent some time with psychotics, with paranoid schizophrenics, with suicidal or depressed individuals. Once they had seen what the meds do, they would stop broadcasting the idea that taking your psych meds will make you a zombie killer: an idea which is sowing far MORE craziness in the world than it is removing.

[DCKit]

40. Crutches work for 100% of people, drugs (any drug) only works as indicated...

for 85% of people. For instance, cocaine derivatives have zero effect on me. I'll take an aspirin any day over a Tylenol-4.

[ProfessorGAC]

42. Kind Of Agree

At least one of those examples showed TRACE amounts of one of 3 of these drugs in the shooter's system.

Maybe it was a problem with someone in need of these meds NOT taking them as intended.

I don't know for sure, but this litany doesn't exactly establish causation.
GAC

[DirkGently]

50. These drugs are already linked to violence / suicide. Especially in kids.

Stupid would be not recognizing that.

You may have thoughts about suicide when you first start taking an antidepressant, especially if you are younger than 24 years old. Your doctor will need to check you at regular visits for at least the first 12 weeks of treatment with Prozac.

Report any new or worsening symptoms to your doctor, such as: mood or behavior changes, anxiety, panic attacks, trouble sleeping, or if you feel impulsive, irritable, agitated, hostile, aggressive, restless, hyperactive (mentally or physically), more depressed, or have thoughts about suicide or hurting yourself.

http://www.drugs.com/prozac.html

Paroxetine (Paxil) An SSRI antidepressant, Paxil is also linked with more severe withdrawal symptoms and a greater risk of birth defects compared to other medications in that class. It is 10.3 times more likely to be linked with violence compared to other drugs. (More on Time.com: Healthland’s Guide to Life 2011)

Fluoxetine (Prozac) The first well-known SSRI antidepressant, Prozac is 10.9 times more likely to be linked with violence in comparison with other medications.

http://healthland.time.com/2011/01/07/top-ten-legal-drugs-linked-to-violence/#ixzz2FXyIxoks

Overall, the child and teen suicide rate after initiation of antidepressant use among participants in the study was five times higher than the rate reported among all teens aged 13 to 17 in British Columbia, which researchers say reflects the higher suicide risks among the depressed.

"Our analysis supports the decision of the Food and Drug Administration to include all antidepressants in the black box warning regarding increased suicidality risk for children and adolescents initiating use of antidepressants," write researcher Sebastian Schneeweiss, MD, ScD of Harvard Medical School and colleagues in Pediatrics. "Once a decision to initiate pharmacotherapy is made, treatment decisions should be made on the basis of efficacy and less so on the basis of safety. Clinicians should be vigilant in monitoring children and adolescents for whom use of any antidepressant agents is initiated."

http://www.webmd.com/depression/news/20100412/teen-suicide-risk-similar-among-antidepressants

[regnaD kciN]

3. Cause...or symptom?

Is it because they were on antidepressants, or because they were suffering from depression?

One thing's for sure -- whether it was depression, antidepressants, or something else, there was one other factor...















...easy access to firearms.

[Indi Guy]

4. As I stated in the OP...

...guns are the obvious connection here. Does this mean that other factors should be dismissed?

[rainin]

13. No, they should not be dismissed. Thanks for posting. n/t

[Major Nikon]

31. They never have been dismissed

Pretty much every anti-depressant on the market contains some kind of warning about violent behavior. The problem with this type of sensationalism is some people are going to stop taking them after hearing it which may actually have the exact opposite effect of what MM would have you believe.

[AtheistCrusader]

7. The FBI indicated some years back, for Klebold and Harris, one was a manic depressive and the other

a sociopath. They teamed up. They wanted to make a mark upon the world. Bad shit happened.

I see no correlation between what they were prescribed, and what they eventually worked up to doing. I would like to see some peer reviewed evidence that links such, if any.



Also, on your point about firearms... Did they also have easy access to bombs? They made pipe bombs, and bombs for the parking lot to greet first responders. (timers failed) They didn't buy those at gun shows.

They stole some of the weapons, made others, and acquired at least one through a straw purchase, for which the perpetrator went to jail for.

Edit: Some source material.
http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/assessment/2004/04/the_depressive_and_the_psychopath.html

I tend to suspect the drugs simply failed to address the underlying problem, not caused it. If we can actually prove cause, then hey, we should be able to publish some background on that, and peer review it and reproduce the results. Till then, my assumption is perhaps the drugs are just not effective in all cases.

Possibly, the drugs lull caretakers into a false sense of progress or security.

[kelliekat44]

21. But if there were no guns they could not have shot and killed those they did.

Out side of OKC bombing, how many people are blown up daily by homemade bombs? two-year olds don't accidently pick up home made bombs and blow themselves up.

[rainin]

22. No one said stop looking at guns.

We need to take an honest look at the safety of these drugs. We need to investigate the side effects to understand the potential role they play in incidents such as these. Solutions may have to be complex. They won't fit on a bumper sticker.

[AtheistCrusader]

46. Ok

I'm not disagreeing that we should look at firearms, just Moore's questions about medication, and the 'easy access' meme. I think maybe we could look at safe storage requirements, that might help. Straw purchasing is already illegal.

I wish the media made as much hay out of the straw purchaser going to jail in that case, as they did the bogus and contrived 'trench coat mafia' nonsense.

[DirkGently]

51. Studies are done. These drugs have FDA "black box" warnings already.

It's not really even a question that SSRIs cause violent / suicidal thoughts.

Our analysis supports the decision of the Food and Drug Administration to include all antidepressants in the black box warning regarding increased suicidality risk for children and adolescents initiating use of antidepressants," write researcher Sebastian Schneeweiss, MD, ScD of Harvard Medical School and colleagues in Pediatrics. "Once a decision to initiate pharmacotherapy is made, treatment decisions should be made on the basis of efficacy and less so on the basis of safety. Clinicians should be vigilant in monitoring children and adolescents for whom use of any antidepressant agents is initiated."

http://www.webmd.com/depression/news/20100412/teen-suicide-risk-similar-among-antidepressants

[AtheistCrusader]

58. Suicide != school shooting like violence.

Not a word in that article about violence.

[Union Scribe]

6. Scientologist propaganda

This group also blames psychiatry for 9/11. Great to see this kind of utterly idiotic kookery posted here

[green for victory]

18. please see #17

I've learned that "scientologist propaganda" is the standard Pharma retort

It worked in the past, but it ain't gonna work now

Mark My Words

[SidDithers]

37. The OP links to a Scientologist site...

So, yes, it is Scientologist propaganda.

Sid

[AtheistCrusader]

47. oh, well, that makes it all better then.

[mettamega]

23. Michael Moore is NOT a scientologist

I understand Scientology knocks psychiatry and its drugs and these powerful drugs are being given to adolescents, whose brains are still actively developing - it is striking that so many of these mass murders where on these neurological drugs - worth looking deeper into - and needless to say, Michael Moore is not a Scientologist

[AtheistCrusader]

48. Correlation/causation.

I see zero evidence the drugs helped this event along, and only evidence these people needed help of some sort. Based on the data so far, I can't make a reasonable statement beyond; the drugs are not always effective, possibly not always prescribed correctly, and the people observing them might be lulled into a false sense of security by the application of those drugs.

If 100% of the people who drink water, eventually die, that doesn't tell us water killed all those people.

[BarackTheVote]

60. My ex girlfriend was prescribed Zanex or Zoloft... one of the "Z"s

She was in college, suffering from the early stages of Lyme disease and was misdiagnosed as having an anxiety disorder. She started having suicidal ideations, lined up all the pills in a row, and took them all one by one. I can't remember if she called someone, or if someone found her, but they were able to get her stomach pumped and save her life. Her first and only suicide attempt, and she said she never even thought about it until she was put on that drug.

[AtheistCrusader]

61. Ok.

What does suicide have to do with this? (Also, I JUST talked about misdiagnosis or wrong prescriptions)

[rainin]

8. Don't dismiss this without looking deeper. This needs to be looked at.

Start with http://www.cchrint.org/tag/black-box-warnings/
New Study Links ADHD Drugs, Antidepressants, Hypnotics & Anti-Smoking Drug to 1,527 Acts of Violence
Thursday, December 16th, 2010

For years, there were contentious debates about links between certain prescription meds, notably antidepressants, and suicidal behavior. Now, the focus is turning to violent behavior directed toward others. And a new study is linking 31 widely prescribed drugs – most notably, the Chantix anti-smoking pill – with 1,527 serious acts of violence, such as physical abuse, physical assault and homicide.

The study, which was published in PLoS One, identified 484 drugs that accounted for 780,169 serious adverse event reports of all kinds, including 1,937 cases meeting the violence criteria determined by the researchers. There were 387 reports of homicide, 404 physical assaults, 27 cases indicating physical abuse, 896 homicidal ideation reports and 223 cases described as violence-related symptoms.

Besides Pfizer’s Chantix, 11 antidepressants, three ADHD meds and five hypnotics or sedatives were linked to 79 percent of the violence cases. Looked at another way, no cases of violence were reported for 324 of the 484 drugs evaluated. And so an association with violence appeared “highly unlikely” for nearly 85 percent of all evaluated drugs in widespread clinical use.

This is not, by the way, the first time that Chantix has been linked to violent behavior. The same authors published a study last summer in The Annals of Pharmacotherapy that found Chantix is not only associated with violent and aggressive thoughts and acts, but they also identified some of the common characteristics among people using the pill and their subsequent behavior (see original article for additional information).

“Acts of violence towards others are a genuine and serious adverse drug event associated with a relatively small group of drugs. (Chantix), which increases the availability of dopamine, and antidepressants with serotonergic effects were the most strongly and consistently implicated drugs,” the researchers write. Interestingly, this finding appears just after the infamous Zoloft defense case drew to a close. That involved a 12-year-old boy who killed his grandparents and his lawyers blamed the antidepressant (see original article for additional information).

The authors do, however, cite some limitations. The submission of an individual adverse event report does not itself establish causality,” the note, “only that a reporting individual suspected a relationship existed.” And they add that the quality and detail in each report varies. On the other hand, they also say that, “given that violent thoughts or actions are not typically attributed to drug therapy or recorded in medical records, the reporting rate for violence cases could be very low. The selected violence cases do not provide a reliable estimate of how often they might occur.”

In the end, they recommend prospective studies to “establish the incidence, confirm differences among drugs and identify additional common features.”

http://www.pharmalot.com/2010/12/chantix-prescription-drugs-and-violent-acts/

Note from CCHR: As far back as 1991, the FDA held hearings into antidepressants causing suicidal ideation and violence, largely prompted by CCHR’s demands for an investigation. CCHR testified along with dozens of victims and medical experts. The FDA panel, largely Pharma funded, refused to issue warnings despite the evidence presented. It would take the FDA another 13 years to finally admit antidepressants cause suicidal ideation and issue black box warnings on the drugs. The FDA has still never fully investigated the overwhelming evidence linking antidepressants and other psychiatric drugs to acts of violence and homicide.

Watch this video, produced by CCHR, of the 1991 FDA hearings into antidepressants causing suicide and violence http://www.youtube.com/cchrint#p/c/B9EA75455D155D89/6/FxJomeak4V4

[Union Scribe]

10. CCHR again

Interesting to note: this cult requires its members to sign a form vowing to hold the cult faultless for any harm that comes from the members NOT being treated by psychiatric medicine. Odd stance for people who think no good can come of such things.

[green for victory]

19. not in post #17

[rainin]

9. If all these kids were marijuana users, they'd be screaming about it.

The silence about these psychotropic drugs is deafening.

I remember hearing a story about a boy of maybe 8 years of age, who was on mood altering drugs. He suffered from thoughts of wanting to cut his mom into pieces. After they weaned him off the drugs, he was completely free of those thoughts and became a normal 8-year-old. I don't remember the whole story, but I remember thinking he was lucky. He could have ended up with more "treatment" not less and who knows where he would be today.

[Union Scribe]

11. I remember hearing about a cult

that sends people out to push anti-med propaganda on unwary netizens.

[orleans]

15. wtf? so all the drug warnings-- as stated by the manufactures--don't mean shit?

[sabrina 1]

24. Drugs have side effects and we don't need any cult to know that

some of them have disastrous side effects for many people.

It's amazing that people are so in denial about this drug-addled society we live in. What did people do before they had all these drugs? For one thing they weren't shooting up school children.

No one can tell me that we have so many children in this country who need these heavy duty drugs. How come children in other countries manage to survive childhood without being drugged into a zombie state?

I have never signed a paper given to me by any doctor that any of my students needed medication simply because they were full of energy. As someone upthread said, if they have that much energy, it can be directed into something that will use it in a positive way. But the answer to everything in this country now is drugs, and guns, and war and then drugs to handle the violence etc. etc.

We live in a totally screwed up society and unless something is done about it, we will continue to have these mass killings. Drugs and guns, imagine if children had no access to either, they could just be kids as they were for centuries. But then a whole lot of people would not be making the money they are making.

[AtheistCrusader]

49. That's a lie.

The first school shootings in the US pre-date automobiles, and Germ Theory.

[rainin]

12. Somebody sounds a little too defensive.

Which part of "mind-altering" do people not understand? The drugs are chemicals. The package inserts list increase risk of violent behavior. Why would someone throw around 9/11, cult, like we must be a conspiracy theorist for suggesting that there might be a connection? Humm. Makes you wonder. What do some people feel the need to protect?

[nvme]

14. Confirmation Bias

Last edited Sun Dec 30, 2012, 06:37 AM - Edit history (1)

Mental Illness is the core issue. All of the crimes are horrific. It is reckless to select 10-12 crimes and blame the psychotropic drugs based on so few case studies. That reflects bias.

[rainin]

16. Lump all meds?

What I hear is someone suggesting we look in the direction of the meds. The response seems to be "look away, nothing to see here". If we consider the meds honestly, then those meds that are not a problem would be clearly differentiated. Just look. I'm always amazed when people won't consider a possibility. This one's an obvious place to look. Just consider it.

[Are_grits_groceries]

20. I would not be alive without these drugs.

My depression was so severe that it took a lot of talk and other treatment to break it.

The side effects should not be ignored, but to declare with certainty that they cause mass shootings is irresponsible.

Kids should always be medicated with great care because they are still forming both physically and mentally. I taught some kids who were medicated that I wondered about.

I don't take ANYTHING at face value that the doctors or the drug literature tells me. The brain is so complex that any treatment is a wild guess in some ways. I don't think we know 1% of what we could know.

Every drug has side effects and reacts differently with different people. When taking anti-depressants, you have to not only have the right drug but the right amount. It is a maddening process for somebody seeking relief from 'the black dog.'

I will fight you to the end about getting rid of or curtailing these drugs. We need more research and better treatments including different drugs. What we have now has literaly been a life saver for untold numbers of people.

One thing you won't know unless you have to deal with it is the problem with getting insurance for mental illness or to pay for it once it occurs. There have been parity laws, but many still want to limit the number of visits, the amount paid, and any hospitalization for these conditions. Imagine trying to fight that battle while depressed.

[davidpdx]

39. I hear you about medication saving lives

And you are right about the side effects varying with different people. If we were taking the same exact drugs most likely they would cause different side effects. People are very dismissive of anti-depressants as evil. To some they save lives and let us lead normal lives.

Many of the medications mentioned in the OP I am either on or have been on in the past, so I'm well aware of the side effects of most of them (there are a few I've never been on).

I also agree with you about being careful about medicating kids. Simply shoving Ritalin down the kids throat may solve a short term problem, but not the long term behavior problems. That being said I don't think you can go to the extreme like some are preaching which is not give kids medication even when they do need it.

The best advice I can give anyone who is on or thinking about going on a medication is do research on your own.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

27. Yes, over-prescribing exists, but root causes are still over-supply of guns and magazines & media:

The media prominence and 24/7 coverage turns more disturbed people to the idea of "going out in a blaze of glory" in their twisted minds or taking more with them. The much higher availability of assault rifles, semi-auto pistols, and high capacity magazines means that the people with the intent are able to kill higher numbers.

They go in with three guns instead of a single six-shooter. So instead of killing one person and wounding two and being a two-day wonder on local TV, they kill twenty and become a three-day wonder on national TV.

[Smarmie Doofus]

28. Correlation does not equal causation.

And cherry picking anecdotes to support a hypothesis is the *weakest* form of argument.

Hasn't any individual , at any time or in any place EVER committed a violent crime while NOT taking pharmaceuticals?

Come on.

[intaglio]

30. Do NOT link to the Scientologist group "Psychiatric Fraud"

Now into the detail

OK, talk to a depressive for whom these drugs have worked before you start blaming them for these events. Also do not link drugs whose modes of action and physiological effects are completely different. Vallium does NOT act like an SSRI nor an SNRI nor a SARI, none of these act like Ritalin. Xanax is a reuptake inhibitor (amongst a whole load of other things) but it is not an "antidepressant".

Yes, SSRIs, SNRIs and SARIs have a cognitive effect that can be associated with bad actions. There is a known link between beginning taking these drugs and successful suicides. There is also a link between ceasing these drugs and such actions In the UK (effective) prescription of these drugs is always accompanied by frequent visits to a doctor who watches for signs of increased suicidal ideation and violent thoughts. The suicides that do occur are known to be impulsive, not planned, although they may involve elements talked about in previous episodes of near suicide.

The killings listed are just that. Let's look at them.
Dekalb, Illinois – February 14, 2008 By the toxicology results Kazmierczak had ceased taking his prescription. Additionally, you should NEVER take Prozac and Xanax together, combining it with Ambien is plain stupid. Xanax is also a short acting anti anxiety drug - NOT an antidepressant and Ambien is a drug for sleep disorders (NOT an antidepressant).

Omaha, Nebraska – December 5, 2007 Valium is exactly the stuff you should NOT take if you are a depressive. It makes the symptoms worse. V is a drug of addiction. There's also the small matter that only the report of Hawkins' "friend" places him on Valium.

Jokela, Finland – November 7, 2007 Do you have any evidence that Auvinen was taking an antidepressant and if so which?

Cleveland, Ohio – October 10, 2007 Trazodone is a SARI (Serotonin antagonist and reuptake inhibitor). It is also sleep inducing (narcoleptic). It is also prescribed for many mental health issues and is thought unsuitable in some.

Blacksburg, Virginia – April 16, 2007 If you can tell us what the mental health problems that the shooter had then perhaps we could make some judgement. Note also that your report states that he had received "prior" mental health treatment - it doesn't say what or when prior.

Red Lake, Minnesota – March 2005 The guy was on Prozac. no indication of why but I'll say it might be the first score for the Scientologists.

Greenbush, New York – February 2004 Hearsay report without describing which of many medications he might have been taking, if any. No Tox report from the ME.

El Cajon, California – March 22, 2001 You are never on citalopram (Celexa) and venlafaxine (Effexor) at the same time. Suspicion, if any, should be directed at SSRI discontinuation syndrome.

Williamsport, Pennsylvania – March 7, 2001 Firstly, not exactly a massacre and secondly what was the cause of the depression? Might it have been bullying? In which case there might be another reason for shooting whilst the fact that she was ineffective in her (possible) desire to kill could be taken as evidence of effective treatment

Conyers, Georgia – May 20, 1999 "Being treated on antidepressants" is hearsay and omits the important detail of which drug (if any). No Tox report.

Columbine, Colorado – April 20, 1999 ONE of the killers was on an SSRI. For the other the records are sealed so no indication of psychiatric disorder.

Notus, Idaho – April 16, 1999 Yet another case of mixed drugs. No indication what mental health issues were being treated.

Springfield, Oregon – May 21, 1998 Like Red Lake, I'll let the Hubbardites have this one - with reservations.

[davidpdx]

41. I have to agree that most of these claims are out there

With many of the cases we don't know exactly what treatment the person was receiving, what disorder they had, and whether they were receiving medication. HIPPA pretty much prevents this unless it came out some other way. The person may have killed people and may be dead, but they still have their right to privacy.

Many of these medications I am either on or have been on in the past (Celexa, Valium, Ritalin and Prozac are among the ones I have less knowledge about).

Those who dismiss out of hand the potential help the medications can provide. It is up to the individual who is being prescribed the medication to talk to their doctor and research the possible side effects.

Children under 16 are going to have a different metabolism and react to drugs differently. I didn't start on medication until after I was 18 so I have no experience with that. I'd always urge caution though.

[Vashondem]

34. Antidepressants

Re antidepressants and suicide: when I was in nursing school one of the big themes in psychiatric care was that when a depression is lifting it is there that there must be extreme vigilance for signs of suicidal thoughts. The released and increased energy in the sufferer then makes it easier for that person to take his/her own life.

Re trazadone: it is a very weak antidepressant that is no longer used for depression. It is however widely prescribed for sleep in that it makes the taker very sleepy. I've been using it for years with great benefit.

[Squinch]

35. This, though, is a chicken and egg problem. Were the antidepressants a factor in the

behavior, or were the antidepressants insufficient to overcome a behavior that was already there? The list of incidents doesn't really show anything, other than that the shooters come from a subset of society that has at some point been identified as having mood problems, and the shooters were given or took medication. That isn't really surprising.

I don't know if there is any way to do a real scientific study on this.

[SidDithers]

36. Scientologist bullshit...

Peddle that L Ron Hubbard science-fiction somewhere else.

Sid

[lynne]

38. My cousins husband took a shotgun to my cousin and then to their adult child -

- before putting the gun in his mouth and blowing his own head off. He had been depressed and had just begun taking Xanax. It was later discovered that he was taking too much of it - the old "if one will make me feel better then three should make me feel great" syndrome.

This was a full grown man who had battled depression before without incident. This was also before they began to associate some of these drugs with suicidal tendencies.

Was it the Xanax that pushed him over the edge? Guess we'll never know. Do I think that there's a connection between mental illness, these drugs, and the mass murders listed above? Oh, yes.

[Odin2005]

52. Hateful Scientologist BS bigotry against the mentally ill.

You should be ashamed for posting this shit.

[abelenkpe]

53. Two of my cousins committed suicide and were on antidepressants.

Personally don't trust that chemical bs. But was it that they were depressed or on the drug? Who knows...

[2on2u]

54. They could go here, but this isn't where their training is, this isn't where the paymasters

want them to go. Five stars all around.

http://www.amazon.com/Natural-Healing-Schizophrenia-Common-Disorders/dp/0965097676/ref=sr_1_cc_1?s=aps&ie=UTF8&qid=1356888436&sr=1-1-catcorr&keywords=eva+edelman



Review
"The most useful volume on nutritional methods for mental illness in 20 years... A valuable resource for researchers, clinicans and families alike." -- William J. Walsh, Ph.D. <br />
A magnificent and needed contribution ot the field of mental health... A superb work... A beacon of hope." -- Ralph Golan, M.D.<br />
"An invaluable resource... This book will enlighten us all in the medical profession, and will give great hope and comfort to patients. I recommend it most enthusiastically." -- Oscar Rogers Kruesi, M.D., F.A.C.P.<br /> --Back cover notes, Natural Healing for Schizophrenia

"It is a daunting task for persons with schizophrenia to find objective information to make informed decisions on therapy. Edelman's excellent book addresses that need: a resource which brings together the rich diversity of orthomolecular treatments. This book is informative and accessible to those with schizophrenia and their families, and is a valuable reference for health care practitioners." -- Greg Shilhab --Nutrition and Mental Health, 1996

"If psychiatry had the good sense to adopt this approach there would be an enormous saving of pain and suffering. -- Abram Hoffer, M.D., Ph.D., Father of Orthomolecular Medicine --Journal of Orthomolecular Medicine, Spring 1997
About the Author

Eva Edelman, is a nutritionist, herbalist and health educator, with twenty-five years experience in these fields. Edelman lectures and writes extensively on natural approaches to mental health, and appears on media nationwide. She has just completed a second volume, "Natural Healing for Bipolar Disorder."

[Comrade_McKenzie]

59. This fringe bullshit belongs in Creative Speculation...

I hope anyone making these claims without valid research accepted in the mainstream community are sued by the drug companies for making fraudulent claims and reduced to shopping for clothes out of the Salvation Army dumpster.

The Democratic Party and its places of discussion should be void of nutjobbery. This fringe distrust of helpful drugs is something that is often discussed on far right conspiracy forums.

And anyone that accepts a source like "psychiatricfraud" or a thoughtful, but poorly arranged display of video clips and snark in documentaries like "Bowling For Columbine" as information are lost.

The amount of conspiracy garbage on the Internet is enough to make someone physically ill. Constantly being subjected to the paranoid delusions of people that comstantly feel like it is somehow intellectual to challenge the reality of everything is just getting to be too much.

The Internet has created generations of faux intellectuals sharing links to makeshift documentaries full of more fallacies than one can list.

It is truly sickening and anyone that perpetuates this nonsense is sickening.

Good day, sir.

[HappyMe]

62. Locking.

Please consider reposting in Creative Spec. Thanks.