This Funding Bill is Pointless

[angrychair]

I think it's important to clear up some confusion that the propaganda weasels in the new media are ignoring. The current fight over DHS funding is theater to make everyone feel better and feel like Congress is doing something.

Even if they don't come to any agreement, hell even if they refused to fund them for the next two years, it would not impact their ability to operate.


They are fully funded through 2029 because of the Big Bullshit Bill.

They need to abolish ICE. That's it. That is the only way you fix this. Abolish ICE and fire everyone.

Unless that is on the table they all can all fuck fight off. Every. Single. One. Of. Them.

That you can watch them attacking people, murdering people in cold blood and go "let's just give them the same engagement rules as regular police" like that fucking matters. Police have been out here harassing, beating, torturing, murdering and raping people since the beginning, especially Black and brown folk, and when one is actually held accountable, it's so rare that it makes not just national but international news. That image of that ICE agent standing over Alex Pretti with his gun to his head and knowing THEY SHOT HIM TEN TIMES IN THE BACK AND IN HIS HEAD, in broad daylight, in front of people filming, tells me they have been told they are untouchable. Also, the shooters were not new recruits but both have been with ICE for several years.

The type of solutions they are offering are not worth the paper they are written on.

ABOLISH ICE.

[chicoescuela]

1. All true and he will move money from other programs anyway.

It just doesn’t matter

[leftstreet]

2. ABOLISH ICE is now the moderate position

What part of this don't our expensively-consultant draped reps not understand?

[DJ Synikus Makisimus]

3. Not just I.C.E! Homeland Security needs to end.

Everyone ever involved should be given an investigative colonoscopy as well. Preferably while being held incommunicado at Gitmo. Nothing has eroded our rights and freedoms faster than this bipartisanly-approved and bipartisanly-maintained department created by Dubya's people using 911 as an excuse. It's a huge overstep of executive power enabled by a weak legislative branch that wants nothing more than to not be held responsible for anything.

Of course we all that's not going to happen, because some pigs are more equal than others. And freedom. And probably Jesus or something.

[J_William_Ryan]

4. "DHS funding is theater to make everyone feel better and feel like Congress is doing something."

Correct.

The same is true of the ‘reform’ provisions, such as a prohibition on agents using masks, mandates for body cameras and IDs, and requiring independent investigations, the Trump regime will simply ignore the law and its requirements as Trump has willfully violated other laws.

[Blue Full Moon]

5. The Homeland Security Act and the Patriot Act needs to be repealed

[reACTIONary]

6. "Abolish ICE" - Yet another BS slogan....

... right up there with "Defund the Police". A real loser.

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/david-axelrod-warn-dems-against-abolish-ice-message_n_697bd2cfe4b0bb3455fbfe33

[angrychair]

8. Fuck axeleod

Axelrod is an old burnout that hasn't a clue what he is talking about.
Ice has only existed since 2003. How does he think we did immigration enforcement for over 200 years before they existed?

He is smart enough to know that. He has another agenda and trust me there is money attached to it.

Abolish ICE.

[mvd]

16. Exactly

The police at least play a necessary role in society. ICE does not. And considering what ICE has become, I think a lot of people would agree with the abolish position. Carville is another one who is warning us about the abolish ICE message. Both he and Axelrod are out of touch now.

[reACTIONary]

24. Do you think that immigration enforcement is unnecessary? And...

.... if you do not think it unnecessary, exactly how is it to be accomplished?

[reACTIONary]

17. It doesn't matter when ICE was established....

.... when you say abolish ICE people will hear "stop enforcing immigration laws - open the border". That's the reality. And that's not the message we should project.

[Pototan]

9. I agree with you

So many of us act like we have a majority of the elected officials in government or have control of the Supreme Court.

Politics is not about philosophy, but it is mostly about math.

When and if we, as Democrats, have all 3 levels of elected national officials and a majority of SCOTUS, I will not criticize Democrats for failing to accomplish all we want.

[angrychair]

13. There is a difference

Between not getting all we want and helping Republicans get what they want.

As you stated, they have total control. So why are we participating in this at all? They can pass it all with a part line vote so pass it. We should not be compromising or legitimizing what they are doing.

That is the thing that pisses people off. The majority of people, the majority of Democrats, want to abolish ICE. Sure, they might not be able to convince enough Republicans to side with them but they should still try. If nothing else, they should not lift a finger to help them. Democrats could all not vote at all and the Republicans can still pass any legislation they want.
Try to convince the , offer amendments. Do whatever you can do to change their mind. That all fails? Then not a single person should lift a finger to help pass a Republican agenda.

[reACTIONary]

18. A majority of Americans also support...

.... deporting illegal immigrants. Not aggressively, and not as their major concern, but they do want immigration enforcement. Abolish ice isn't going to do us any good electorally. It will be used against us as a call for open borders. And that will be taken as extreme.

[angrychair]

20. Surveys support the position

Of "Abolish ice". By a significant margin. Also, far to many Americans are ignorant, uneducated bootlickers that know less about US civics then the average immigrant.

[reACTIONary]

26. Surveys also support immigration enforcement...

... and given your low opinion of the far too many Americans who are being surveyed, don't be surprised when they decide that "abolish ICE" means "Open Borders" and change their minds. They will have a lot of help towards coming to that conclusion.

[pat_k]

27. Pre-patriot act, ice was part of the immigration and naturalization service and domestic terrorism the FBI's bailiwick.

Merging/conflating immigration enforcement as part of a Homeland Security agency whose primary mission was purportedly to deal with domestic terrorism was a vile notion from the start. Calling it the "Homeland" security agency was an intentional embrace of ethnic nationalism and white supremacy. From day one, the word "homeland" framed the United States not as a nation founded on universal ideals, but as a "white homeland."

[choie]

29. Since you're so interested in language

The phrase is “undocumented immigrants, not illegal immigrants. People aren’t illegal. Language matters, right?

[reACTIONary]

35. Maybe Unlawful Immigrants? "Undocumented" is...

.... such a lame, virtue-signalling euphemism. It's a clumsy attempt to evade the reality that there actually is a law, and that law is actually being violated.

Come to think about it, for every unlawful immigrant there is an employer who is violating the law. An illegal employer. Should we should start calling them "undocumented employers"?

[choie]

37. How about "scum sucking bottom feeder employers"

They're not without documents, immigrants are.

And it's not virtue-signalling to treat people humanely. Employers who take advantage of the most vulnerable and let the vulnerable take the fall are SCUM.

[quakerboy]

11. do or die

Literally. If we do not disolve ice entirely, we will not be able to sustain this country as a democracy. It is a secret police funded by taxpayer dollars, loyal to trump and noone else.

[reACTIONary]

23. In my humble opinion...

.... that is unwarranted, exaggerated fearmongering vastly disproportionate to the actual threat.

[quakerboy]

30. in my humble opinion

Democracy can not tolerate or coexist with an unaccountable secret police loyal only to a person or party and not to the nation

[reACTIONary]

32. Well, I wasn't going to mention it, but since you brought it up again...

.... ICE is the worst kept secret police ever.

[quakerboy]

33. That is the norm.

Are you the sort of person who also challenges climate science based on the "logic" that it gets cold in winters and therefore global warming is false?

Look at your history. Secret police are not a secret in their existence. Was the German populace was unaware of the Gestapo? However their personnel are often kept secret, as are the depths of what they are doing. At least at first. The extrajudicial surveillance. The extrajudicial kidnappings. The extrajudicial killings. Although of late they have blown the lid wide open on that last one. I hope they are jumping the gun, not actually ready to take the next step in subjugating this country.

It really concerns me me that even here on DU people are willing to accept and even normalize the existence of this sort of organization. Its new, its nasty, and its very existence is incompatible with democracy.

[reACTIONary]

34. This sort of organization?

What sort of organization? An organization that enforces our immigration laws? Or an organization that disrespects the constitutional protections of due process and the bill of rights?

Let's not confuse the two. Because that confusion would work against reinforcing and protecting our liberal democracy.

As the ACLU states: "The Bill of Rights does not grant foreigners the right to enter the United States..." Immigration and boarder control are legitimate, if not necessary, state functions. They are also supported by the vast majority of the public - and in a liberal democracy, the legitimate claims of the people are to be respected.

As the ACLU also states: "....immigrants are entitled to certain, broad protections. These include the right to be treated fairly in court, to free speech and religious freedom, and to be protected from discrimination." And this is where our focus should be. Humane enforcement, respectful of both our legitimate, democratic laws and the rights of all persons, immigrants and citizens alike.

When we do not make a clear distinction between the legitimacy of the law itself verses the conduct used in enforcing the law, we put the protection of rights and due process at a disadvantage. Speaking to the original post's exclamation to "ABOLISH ICE", this slogan does not properly respect that distinction. It is going to be taken by the public as a declaration against the legitimate laws that they overwhelmingly support. And they will be encouraged in this interpretation by those who will claim that an "open society" means "open boarders." We are going to be smeared.

More to your point, which I believe is that we are on a slippery slope towards a totalitarian police state: We are always, and ever will be, on that slippery slope. All actions, and all inactions, tend toward or foreshadow some extreme. Hyperbolic, hysterical exclamations of immanent doom are not helpful because they are unrealistic and are recognized as such. And that recognition will be taken as advocacy for the opposite extreme: A slippery slope towards open boarders and lawless anarchy.

This is not mere speculation - many of my relatives characterize "liberals" in just this way, and they tend to dismiss our concerns as unrealistic, while holding onto their own unrealistic views. In discussions with them, I try to point out that their concerns are unrealistic and that liberals are not advocates for anarchy. And likewise on DU.

[quakerboy]

36. ICE is the latter

And has been for a long time, possibly all of its brief existence. It is not about immigration law enforcement. That is, was, and continues to be a threadbare excuse for creating a non-accountable private army operating with impunity inside the USA.

ICE is not necessary to maintain laws. Not even immigration laws. We arrested and deported non citizens long before ice existed. Ice needs to be abolished. It is corrupt start to end, top to bottom. It can not be reformed. Having an agency built on a base of kidnap, murder, and surveillance of American citizens, with complete impunity is fundamentally incompatible with continuing to have a democracy in this country. If it is not abolished, even if it is shrunk to a morsel, it will act as a cancer, waiting its time to spread again.

Do we need immigration controls? Sure. Lets use one of the other agencies that we have for that purpose CPB, perhaps. Or build a new one if we need a separate crew. ICE is not it, and can not be turned into it, short of a complete firing of every single person in the agency, top to bottom, and a complete rebuild from the bedrock up. At which point, you are still abolishing it and starting a new organization, just keeping the name and attendant baggage.

I would also say that It worries me that there are Du'rs who are so head in the sand that they think accurately noting current actual reality qualifies as hyperbolic or hysterical.

I also have family who have often stated beliefs as you describe. I guess im blessed with the ones who are at least somewhat paying attention to reality, though. At this point, even the 3 time trump supporters in my family are realizing how quickly things have gone bad. I will grant their ideas of how to deal with that are very different than mine, Revolving more around withdrawing from society until things work themselves out, rather than trying to fix them, but at least amongst my folks, they can see that this is not "normal" and that we are no longer fighting a slippery slope, we are have lost and are rapidly nearing freefall.

[choie]

38. Thank God we have posters like you

to keep us "realistic". What WOULD we do without you?

[AZJonnie]

22. Sadly agree. I also put "Medicare for All" in that category, much as I appreciate Bernie generally

Our side are not the best with the slogans. I'm not saying I was against these *ideas*, they just aren't the best ways of saying it.

When you say "Abolish ICE" a large majority of people think you're saying "stop enforcing immigration law". It's a political loser.

Me, Too was pretty good though.

[flashman13]

7. I agree with you to a point. But you can't just abolish ICE. They do have a legitimate job that has to be done.

What they are currently doing isn't it. So reform it. That's what must be done, but it's not something that can be done on the fly in the middle of another funding crisis.

Here is what can be done. Make some sensible demands and shut the entire government down until those demands are met. Trump wants to govern by extortion. Democrats can play that game.

What demands?

Obviously not a another dime for ICE and DHS as a whole.

Withdraw ICE etc. from every occupied city and state immediately.

Immediately terminate all ICE agents that have been hired since The Big Steaming Pile Bill was passed.

A joint investigation of the Good and Pretti murders by Minnesota officials and a Special Senate Investigation Committee with the best legal minds available. It should be similar to the J6 Committee.

The resignation of Noem, Bondi, Homan, Patel, and Miller.

And a three year extension of all ACA programs and benefits.

Feel free to add more.

That's a meaningful effort I can stand behind.

[angrychair]

10. Ice has only existed since 2003

Did we not do immigration enforcement before over 200 years before 2003 and then suddenly someone decided we should?

No.

CBP was doing that function. ICE was created after 911 and DHS was created then too. Did you know that when DHS was created it increased the size of the federal government by over 25% and was the greatest increase in executive power and reach in US history?

A president does not need their own secret police. We can do the job without them because we were doing it before them.

[flashman13]

15. ICE in some form or other has existed as long as we have had borders. Some organization must control the border.

That is not a political position. That is a fact that must be dealt with.

[angrychair]

19. And CBP did that job

They actually do it right now. ICE was a massive expansion of executive power that was completely unnecessary.
We already have an existing agency that was doing this job before 2003.

Tighten the requirements and rules on CBP and abolish ICE.

[flashman13]

25. At this point I don't see an iota of difference between ICE and CPB.

[AllyCat]

21. We had the INS to do that job. ICE, as they are today, serve no

Constructive purpose.

Comprehensive immigration reform that reduces crime, improves our economy, protects needed jobs, and is humane is what we need.

Abolish ICE. They are not the way forward.

[quakerboy]

31. ice is not legitimate

They are new on the scene, duplicating the function of other groups with no sign of doing them better.

Furthermore, they have been kidnapping us citizens off the streets for political reasons since at least trump 1. Going back to the republican turd bill won't resolve the problems. This agency is dirty top to bottom. It can not be reformed. Its existence is an existential threat to our democracy.

[Jack Valentino]

12. I AGREE with you, but the Democrats will have no power to abolish ICE

before we again take over both houses of Congress, and the Presidency!


In the meantime, if we can slow them down at all, that would be a good thing.....


So, I don't like any agreement that gives ICE 'continuing funding at the same level'---
and I think we should SHUT DOWN that part of the government
or ALL OF IT if that is what it takes!!!!

[angrychair]

14. They should at least try

Baring that they don't have to vote for the Republicans toxic agenda. Republicans can pass anything they want without Democrats help, even in the Senate. All Republicans have to do is nuke the filibuster in the Senate and pass all they want.

[W_HAMILTON]

28. I was about to give you a REC because you were on the same path as me -- and then you veered sharply off.

ICE is not going to be abolished as long as Republicans are in charge, so, demanding that, too, is theater.