In light of recent events, it's clear that Israel will be a topic of some discussion here.

[3_Limes]

So can we please firmly establish that pointing out that criticism of the political state of Israel and it's leaders is NOT anti-semitic? Most adults can keep that distinction clear, so can we refrain from knee-jerk accusations while this topic is on the table? It really would help discussions stay focused on what's happening today?

[leftstreet]

1. Good luck with that

I mean that sincerely actually.

Props to you for bringing it up

[sarisataka]

2. Protip:

If one does not want to be thought being antisemitic when criticizing Israel, do not use antisemitic tropes when criticizing Israel.

[3_Limes]

3. If it were that simple I wouldn't have posted this.

Unfortunately, for the last few decades I've been watching zionist work diligently to chain the two together in order to be able to use a charge of anti-semitism to shout down Any criticism of Israel, legitimate or not. We'll probably see that in action right in this thread.

[sarisataka]

5. I have repeatedly criticized

The government of Israel, Netanyahu and Likud without anyone saying I was being antisemitic.
It takes a few more keystrokes than simply saying Israel or Zionist but I believe it worth the effort to make my criticism clear.

[3_Limes]

6. OK then.

I'll consider my wrist slapped.

[sarisataka]

8. Consider it a tap rather than a slap.

My youngest is very much against recent Israeli actions and the Gaza war acknowledges there is a broad range of Zionism- from Biden on one end to Huckabee/ Netanyahu on the other.
We rightfully distinguish between Islam and radical Islamic groups like the Taliban. We should distinguish radical Zionists who are no better than than other extremists.

To be clear- I do not support the US/Israeli attack on Iran. The Iranian government is contemptible but that does not excuse an unprovoked attack on Iran any more than attacking the US or Israel because of their contemptible leaders.

[3_Limes]

21. I lkve the sentiment, but-

We're still working on distinguishing zionism from Judaism , so sorting "normal" and radical zionist is still a stretch. And with the radicals in charge of the country, theirs seems to be the view that matters.

[flashman13]

15. I can tell you that your experience is not necessarily universal.

[cab67]

17. I've had the opposite experience.

[cab67]

18. Doesn't make a difference.

Seriously. This is coming from personal experience.

When I criticized the IDF's activities in Gaza, I made it clear that Hamas did, in fact, start the conflict. I was also clear to criticize Netanyahu, the Israeli government, or portions of the IDF - not Israel or all Israelis. I was pointing to the disproportionate reaction by the Israeli government to the Hamas attacks - not saying there was no provocation, or that Hamas was somehow justified in what it did.

Made no difference. I still got called an antisemite.

[lostincalifornia]

39. +++ Thank-you

[2naSalit]

4. Noble suggestion...

Probably not going to happen here.

[DiverDave]

7. We must be able

To have a rational conversation about the ISRAELI GOVERNMENT.
It cannot happen if someone shouts antisemitism every time someone criticizes the government of Israel.
But, they have found out that if they do scream that we hate Isreal it just devolves into that. And nothing gets done.
And they smugly go away thinking "I showed them".

[QueerDuck]

9. Oh please. Somewhere, someone is editing a post to demand the opposite!

...to try and "firmly establish" that all such posts are indeed antisemitic. I'm sure of it! I guess that rather than judging each post on it's own merit or flaw, it's always easier to make arbitrary supplemental rules rather than simply enforcing the existing rules. What a great advantage that would be, eh?

[QueerDuck]

11. Well that's just brilliant! So simple!

[3_Limes]

12. Yeah. Guess you missed this up above -

If it were that simple I wouldn't have posted this.

Unfortunately, for the last few decades I've been watching zionist work diligently to chain the two together in order to be able to use a charge of anti-semitism to shout down Any criticism of Israel, legitimate or not. We'll probably see that in action right in this thread.

[cab67]

16. Yeah, but...

... pointing out the distinction between Judaism and its adherents (a set of beliefs and cultural traditions dating back millennia that has flourished and given the world much, in spite of ongoing efforts to marginalize and exterminate) and the government of Israel (a nation-state founded in 1947) often gets me tarred as an antisemite.

I disagree with most of the things done by the US government these days, but that doesn't make me anti-American. Same thing, but not everyone is able to accept that.

[whathehell]

24. Exactly..

to call criticism of Netanyahu and his policies "anti Semitic" is like doing the same to Donald Trump and calling it "anti American".

[ShazamIam]

13. I just avoid any post about Israel because this charge is so common, claiming antisemitism when it is anti-Israel gov.

I am only jumping in to state that fact. Speak against current Israel government will draw claims of antisemitism. It is deliberate provocation.
Though I do understand how much fun it is to argue.

[cab67]

14. I tried making this point a while ago.

It got me nowhere. I was accused of "gentile-splaining."

When I pointed out that my wife is Jewish, I was accused of being the kind of bigot who claims to have black friends and therefore can't be racist.

I was called a Hamas sympathizer.

[3_Limes]

19. I've seen this. And it saddens me deeply.

You and Shaz, just above, make valid points. But I still hold out hope even though it's probably a lost cause. These topics deserve open discussion, and this -should- be place for those discussions.

[3_Limes]

22. Sniff. -Sniff-

Troll?

[GP6971]

23. Not very tolerant are you?

[TNNurse]

25. As far as I am concerned,

If you think say that not supporting Netanyahu and the government is anti semitic, then not supporting the current administration is anti American and that is clearly not true.

[enid602]

26. Israel

Is Israel still blockading Gaza?

[BidenRocks]

27. I've said it before,

Any critique of Israel is a third rail to getting banned.

If many of us said what we feel we would be gone. Reported on.

There can be no back and forth debate.

Now what?

(Don't report me!)

[FadedMullet]

28. From your lips to the masses. I share your hope and point out that you've got 58 recs already, so that nice.

[RockRaven]

29. You can try to establish that...

Based on prior behavior witnesses over and over here on DU, I will have to say: good luck!

[EarlG]

30. Criticism of the political state of Israel and its leaders is not antisemitic

But the manner in which that criticism is carried out often is antisemitic, most of the time because (IMO) people haven't done a great job educating themselves on what is antisemitic and what is not. I've seen plenty of antisemitic tropes posted on DU, but only rarely is it easy to tell that someone is made such a statement deliberately -- more often than not, it appears that cluelessness is the culprit.

That's why I think it's worth revisiting the "No bigotry" rule, because as well as banning outright antisemitism, it also talks about how to discuss sensitive subjects. People often forget the second part of the rule: "No insensitivity." Here are some relevant sections from the rule:

"Members are expected to respect diversity and demonstrate an appropriate level of sensitivity when discussing related topics."

"Democratic Underground is a diverse community ... we want to promote a welcoming atmosphere for all of our members."

Its common sense that DUers who forget that part of the rule while criticizing the political state of Israel and its leaders will find themselves more likely to have posts removed than people who do their best to avoid inflammatory language.

[Skittles]

32. it should be obvious to EVERYONE

the accusations are just so fucking tiresome

[Iggo]

33. It's a wonderful thought.

Never works, though.

[True Dough]

34. I suspect

that this holds true for many Israelis, just as it does for many Americans:

[yardwork]

35. Blaming Israel for every bad thing in the world is inherently antisemitic.

It's fashionable now to blame Israel for everything Trump does. For instance, it's assumed that Israel coerced Trump into attacking Iran. That overly simplistic thinking ignores the roles of Saudi Arabia and Trump's billionaire buddies. It also falls back on an ancient antisemitic belief.

Of course Israel's government is involved. I'm not defending Israel's actions. I'm speaking out against the use of ancient antisemitic tropes that cast Jews as an all-powerful conniving evil.

I agree with EarlG here that many of these posters don't seem to understand that they are using antisemitic tropes when they post their thoughts. However, it's easy to see the influence of pervasive anti-Jewish beliefs.

We don't excuse MAGAs for being ignorant and uninformed.

Before you post about Israel or Jews, take some time to read up on antisemitic tropes. These ancient libels include things like assuming Jews have unnatural and universal power, are running the world from the shadows, are inherently greedy and thieving, and drink the blood of innocents.

If you don't learn about the stereotypes and lies about Jews that permeate our culture, you're likely to repeat them - possibly inadvertently - and then you're going to get called out.

[3_Limes]

37. We're all trying our best. We really are.

But as some of the comments above illustrate, there's some frustration in the ranks over being jumped on and demonized even when making an honest effort though. That was the point of the post. That's all.

[Ping Tung]

36. But such is the irresistible nature of truth, that all it asks, and all it wants is the liberty of appearing.

Thomas Paine


Of course all things are subjective even the truth:

“There are no facts, only interpretations.” - Friedrich Nietzsche

[David__77]

38. 1) don't be anti-Semitic, 2) do oppose, expose, and criticize Israel