In just 5 hours and 26 minutes, the Bush Tax Cuts are DEAD FOREVER!

[RomneyLies]

Now it will be easier for Obama to demand that tax cuts only be for those making less than $250K/year.

Since he can attach this to all deficit talks, he can demand even more on those fronts.

Negotiations start from square one at midnight.

The Republicans were given precisely enough rope that they shot themselves in the face.

[flamingdem]

1. Hmm. I wouldn't count on it

since Biden seemed to have agreed to the 450 k figure ?

[RomneyLies]

3. Too late, the House has adjorned.

The elimination of the Bush Tax Cuts is automatic at midnight.

Anything after that will be the Obama Tax Cuts.

[flamingdem]

4. Then if this is good why did the Dems try so hard...

.. I have to admit I really don't have this one sussed out ..

[RomneyLies]

6. They cannot be seen as the reason why we "went over the cliff"

It's all about assigning blame.

[flamingdem]

9. From what the pundits were saying Obama didn't want this..

I mean it looks bad on him as the leader, but in his conference today he didn't look all that upset!

[freshwest]

33. There 3 million reasons amd all of them have families who won't get UEB this week is why.

[leveymg]

53. First order of business for the new Congress should be to restore UI. Up or down. Let the GOP go

on record as sending millions into foreclosure and abject poverty. Same goes for not agreeing to middle-class tax breaks - but, that, we know will get passed quickly. The rest should be dealt with issue by issue.

No Grand Deals. Leave Social Security out of it.

[freshwest]

69. +1,000. Thanks. Yes, there were reasons to try.

[doc03]

56. I will bet the cutoff is much higher than the

$250000 figure when it is all over.

[RomneyLies]

58. It all depends.

If there's no bill before midnight Thursday, the president and the Democrats are in a much better position for that part of it.

The problem lies in extended UI benefits and too many would be hurt by that.

Also, if they are kicking the can down the road with sequestration, the president has made it clear revenues will be a part of that as well, so we could alter some things with those negotiations.

[doc03]

64. Once the fiscal cliff bs is over, what bargaining power does the

president have when the debt ceiling comes up again?

[RomneyLies]

65. Not much unless tied to sequestration n/t

[doc03]

66. The Republicans don't give a damn they will do the same thing

they did last year and have our credit rating dropped anther notch.

[quinnox]

2. celebration commences!

The new year is off to a great start.

[Pretzel_Warrior]

5. Bring it on!!! People trust Obama. Polls say so

And they think repukes in Congress are either motherfuckin crazy or lying sacks of shit.

Bring on the cliff, stupid fuckers!

[freshwest]

34. Looks like Americans are catching on.. except for the 60 million assholes who voted Puke last month

[Hekate]

7. Bush gave it 10 years so that it would land smack on the next president

Junior was a world-class asshole. Remember when he sent everybody a check for $300? He got rid of a big chunk of the Clinton surplus by doing that. He got rid of another chunk with this brilliant idea. Then he ran two wars on the credit card.

I am glad to see this piece of legislation die. Start over. Tax the wealthy more, give relief to those who need it. Screw the Norquistians blue.

Hekate

[Liberalynn]

48. Before Jr. I thought Reagan was the worst President ever.

Dumbya definitely brought it to a new low.

[Make7]

63. Budget Act and the Byrd Rule

 
[div class="excerpt" style="margin-left:1em; border: 1px solid #bfbfbf; border-radius:0.4615em; box-shadow: 3px 3px 3px #bfbfbf;"]Importantly for sunset provisions, the Byrd Rule also defines as extraneous provisions that "would increase the deficit for a fiscal year beyond those covered by the reconciliation measure." Since the Budget Act states the budget resolution covers at least the four years following the "budget year" which is typically the year following the year in which it adopted, that is the usual period of time. However, budget resolutions have covered periods as long as ten years, so a reconciliation measure may cover the ten years.[font style="font-size:0.8462em;"]


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunset_provision#Budget_Act_and_the_Byrd_Rule[/font]

[ToxMarz]

70. More simply

If they had been passed to extend beyond ten years they would have been required to be included in the deficit calculations (would have been scored by the CBO) and couldn't have been passed in reconciliation as they were. Like the cost of the wars and Medicare Part D, they hid everything. That is what they left the next President.

[baldguy]

8. .

[FarPoint]

13. Excellent choice for a theme.

[pangaia]

10. How do repubs shoot themselved in the face....

with a rope?
Don't you mean enough rope to hang themselves?

Sorry, couldn't resist.
too much egg nog.

Happy 2013

[RomneyLies]

16. See, you would expect them to hang themselves with that rope

Instead they pulled a gun and shot themselves in the face.

[pangaia]

21. OH ! never thought of that !

[bluestate10]

17. They are stupid. Their base is stupid. nt

[baldguy]

24. Off topic....

After I got out of work I went to three different supermarkets looking for some damned egg nog. The only king I found was 4 small bottles of crappy, overpriced "boutique" egg nog-like substance that was - get this - low fat. It wasn't even in the dairy section.

But they did have a shitload of Valentine's Day crap out on display.

[eilen]

83. If you have a BJ's Wholesale Club store nearby

they still have egg nog. I bought some on Saturday. It is a half gallon size. My son thinks it is nectar of the Gods.

[freshwest]

35. You don't think they suggest guns everywhere and would let the chance pass?

Although I understand the question...

RomneyLies, is that what you were thinking?

[pangaia]

67. I already had too much eggnog at 7:05..

and you expects me to awserm a complekatde qweschon like that moow?

[freshwest]

68. Well, happy new year to ya!

[pangaia]

85. Back at you, too.

[lib2DaBone]

11. We are going OVER the cliff...

..and no politician will have to take responsibility for ANYTHING!

Its the Dems.., Oh no, it's the Republicans...

see how that works? NO ONE is to BLAME....

[ananda]

12. Let them die, please!

..

[bluestate10]

14. I like the idea of going over the fiscal cliff, it is going to cost me and others money, but a

line has to be drawn. Go over the cliff and bloody republicans next year.

[Romulox]

15. You didn't watch the President's press conference today, did you. nt

[RomneyLies]

18. Yes, I did.

Maybe you were watching something else.

[hfojvt]

19. Why do you want to bring so many of them back?

Why not tax cuts that favor the bottom 50% instead of favoring the top 20%?

Let's let the $250,000 number die with the Bush tax cuts.

Most Americans make far, far less than $250,000.

[RomneyLies]

20. Ever try to live in a big city?

That $250K isn't all that much living in Chicago unless you live in an area akin to a war zone.

The better bet might be more steps for $500K and above.

Say, 39.6% for $250K-$499K, then 41.2% for $500K-$749K, then 42.8% for $750K-$999K, then 45% for everything a million and above.

Of course, trying to get that through the 113th Congress would be no small feat, though it would be slightly easier than the 112th Congress has been.

[Skittles]

22. please tell me you are either kidding or a republican

PLEASE

[RomneyLies]

23. I'm being honest.

You, apparently have never had to pay the high rents of a large city.

Edited to add: I find your insult of comparing me to a Republican vulgar.

[FSogol]

26. I found it vulgar when you said you admired Reagan

[RomneyLies]

28. I find it vulgar that you treat the political arena like some kind of war.

I admire anybody who offers service to their country, regardless.

I disagreed with Reagan's political policies, and spent eight years of his administration working to elect Democrats and fighting against those policies.

The two are different and are completely separable. In fact, the failure to separate them indicates an infantile mind.

[FSogol]

38. Reagan was scum and so are his defenders.

I'm sure Idi Amin was nice to his grandmother, but I won't give him credit for it.

[Skittles]

42. THANK YOU

[RomneyLies]

43. Idi Amin never offered service to the United States

He was scum.

Reagan was a poor administrator and implemented incredibly naive and harmful policies.

He was not evil incarnate.

[FSogol]

45. You constantly defend Reagan on "Democratic Underground," yet wonder why people

call you a Republican?



And since you passively aggressively called me infantile, this is for you:

"If you like Reagan so much, why don't you marry him!"

[RomneyLies]

46. Treating your political opponents as evil incarnate never solved anything

In fact, it only makes matters worse.

It's the Teabagger mindset and it harms this country.

I disagreed with Reagan politically.

He was not evil incarnate.

And painting me as evil incarnate because I refuse to agree with your painting of Reagan as evil incarnate is PRECISELY the same as the teabaggers pushing the somewhat reasonable Republicans out and pushed themselves into the corner they now inhabit.

[FSogol]

51. Another fail. You are the one using the term "evil." I used "scum."

You called me infantile and are saying I have the tea-bagger mindset. Pathetic.

[RomneyLies]

54. Now you have completely lost me

I have no clue what the fuck you are trying to say with your link.

So I must say goodbye.

[fascisthunter]

62. yeah, well... Sid isn't much better

[trumad]

27. I find you telling us that 250,000 is simply not enough for some people insulting.

Live in the fucking suburbs if rent is to high in the city.

[RomneyLies]

30. I moved to the Suburbs because I do not make that kind of money

and it's still expensive out here.

Geez. Get realistic. Life does not revolve around oyur perceptions of where middle class begins and ends and political sausage making certainly doesn't.

Grow up and learn how politics works.

[Jim Warren]

47. Grow up and learn how the world works

Your idea of "middle class" is starting to sound like bourgeoisie, the French term derived from the old French burgeis meaning walled city. No one in my circle of friends lives in gated community, but of course they are all working class.

[RomneyLies]

49. Actually, you're the one who should probably grow up and learn how the world works. n/t

[trumad]

55. Wow... learn how politics works?

12 year member here...you must think I'm here to just hang in the sports forum.

My wife and I make a combined salary of exactly 250,000 per year.

Guess what... We can afford to live wherever we want and still have plenty left over.

We live very good lives and within our budget.

Whhhhaaaa for those who just find it so difficult to live on 400 grand...or 33 thousand per month.

[RomneyLies]

57. Given your posts, you have been here to do nothing but rant

with no clue whatsoever about that which you rant.

And if you read any of the posts I have made about I WISH we could move the top tax bracket you'd know I WISH I was taxed at a higher rate, and my wife and I make less than half what you and your wife make.

You'd also know that I WISH we could have brackets above that with even higher rates.

But I am also a political realist and I understand completely that this is nothing but wishful thinking where the 112th and 113th Congresses are concerned. I'll take what I can get and due to public perception and political will, increasing rates on $250K/year and above is the BEST we can HOPE to get.

[trumad]

75. Yeah I'm a realist to

And I'm fine with the 400 grand mark...

BUT---you whining that 250,000 is not enough for some is pure unadulterated horseshit.

[RomneyLies]

60. And one other point

Before my wife and I moved out of the city nearly ten years ago, we would hear gun shots most nights in our neighborhood. This was also a fairly decent Chicago neighborhood.

And we were making just over $100K annually combined income before the move. We would have needed double that to live in a neighborhood where we would not have heard those gun shots.

[trumad]

76. Keep making shit up as you go

[RomneyLies]

81. Keep blinders to reality on.

[trumad]

82. Reality to what?

250,000 is not enough to live on?

[RomneyLies]

36. One other point

$250K for a family of four would be at the upper end of upper middle class in most large cities when you consider the upper middle class is the professional class without outside incomes (doctors, lawyers, etc.). My wife and I do not fall into that arena.

Go beyond that and you are in upper class.

Yes, it's somewhat arbitrary, but you have to draw lines somewhere.

And quite frankly, I would have no problems personally with dropping that considerably and increasing my own taxes dramatically on the upper end of my family's income (we would be at the bottom end of upper middle class i.e. just past the five figure threshold for professional class). The problem is you do not have the political will in this country to make that happen in either the 112th or 113th Congresses.

[Jim Warren]

29. I'm being honest

You, apparently don't know what living within your means is.

[RomneyLies]

31. I'm being honest

You apparently do not understand that the cost of living is different in different areas.

[Lex]

32. Less than 3% of the population claim more than $250,000 in income

(AGI) yearly.

[RomneyLies]

39. And the portion of the population that makes that as earned income

are at the upper end of the scale in the professional class in large urban environments.

I'd have no problems with increasing taxes on myself and my wife and we make less than half that amount, but there is no political will to make that happen in either the 112th or 113th Congresses.

[Skittles]

37. I have almost always lived in the city!!

which INCLUDES CHICAGO (I am a native Illinoisan). And me - VULGAR?

[RomneyLies]

40. Yes, vulgar. n/t

[Skittles]

41. LOL

[RomneyLies]

44. HA

[vi5]

79. Here's a solution:

Don't live in the city with the high rent. Live outside of it. When i worked in New York City, if I couldn't afford to live there, I commuted from outside the city where the rents are cheaper.

I live in one of the most expensive parts of the country and make well below $250K between my wife and I and we do just fine.

Let me guess: You're one of these people who consider private school an essential expense?

[hfojvt]

50. except the top rate does not kick in at $250,000

the top rate does not kick in until $357,700 and that is a number that happens AFTER deductions and exemptions.

A family of four gets exemptions of $14,800

A household making $372,500 is almost sure to itemize their deductions. If, for example, they deduct state income taxes of 4%, they will have a deduction right there of $14,900, which is more than the $11,900 that is standard. They are likely to have another $20,000 in deductions.

So, basically, right now, households do not start paying the top rate unless their income is over $400,000 a year.

Would I put more brackets on top of that? Heck to the yeah, but that's NOT what this discussion is about.

It is about whether somebody making $240,000 should pay taxes on their income over $180,000 at the pre-Bush 35.5% rate or as the post-Bush 33% rate. I claim that they can easily afford another $30 a week in taxes, but Obama wants to shield them from such a horrible fate.

[RomneyLies]

52. You make a valid point

The $250K is AGI, not Gross Income.

But there's also two things at work here. There's perception and political will.

It's a lot easier to make it sound reasonable at the $250K mark, and that is right around the place where the middle class ends in Gross Income, depending on location.

Then there's the political will to increase taxes, which is nearly non-existent on the other side of the aisle due to the fact that they've worked their base into a froth and have no room for maneuvering whatsoever.

So you'd never increase the rates where they probably should be, starting back around $100K for the 39.6% bracket and further brackets above that, due to a lack of political will from the party that controls the House.

When you add in the fact that the GOP controls the House under the Hastert Rule whereby no legislation that will not get a majority of the Republican caucus can be brought to the floor for a vote, and you have a recipe for disaster.

I doubt there will be any deal before the Speaker of the House is elected for the 113th Congress, and even after that, it's going to be tough.

[Cobalt Violet]

73. Are you saying the top 3%ers living in Chicargo are the neuvo-working poor?

[Yo_Mama_Been_Loggin]

25. Ding dong the witch is dead.

[ellie]

59. Is that midnight EST?

WOo HoO!

[RomneyLies]

61. Yes

Though it's 3 hours and 45 minutes now.

[GatorOrange]

71. We all know Bush is the Worst Ever...but what is his legacy to conservatives now?

Think about it through a conservatives eyes:

His wars were mismanaged failures with no true victory achieved ...

He failed to "shrink" government to the bases liking....

He was way too friendly to immigrants and his pathway to citizenship went down in flames.

His hand picked Chief Justice upheld Evil Obamacare and his failed nominee Harriet Miers wasn't conservative enough...

He oversaw the massive Medicare drug expansion...

Now his Tax Cuts bearing his name will be gone in a few short hours...

Bush is simply permanent political toxic waste to the GOP and is banished by the ever going farther to the right base. There is NO positive legacy from a Republican point of view. Not one bit of one. Even the history books he says will judge him kinder will fail to find anything positive. He launched no generational shift as Reagan did in that party. He didn't set his party up for long term success in the South like Goldwater did. No Nixon-esque elder statesman status or big "China" moment. Not even a happy go lucky reputation like Gerald Ford.

Maybe the worst thought that can go through a GOPer's head from that point of view: Bush was such a horrific President that his stench allowed Obama to get elected...TWICE.

He gets exactly what he deserves in the end. Sneers. Eye Rolls. Banishment.

And as someone who lived in Florida, voted for Gore, and suffered across the years can say three words to a conservative when Bush is brought up: We. Warned. You.

[bobclark86]

72. ...and there was much rejoicing...

[fadedrose]

74. 'Bout time we threw the first wife's junk out......nt

[HiPointDem]

77. they're not. the rich get to keep all the cuts everyone else does; they also get to keep the

bush rate on dividend income.

[BlueStreak]

80. Exactly. Obama's bold move was to make 98% of the Bush tax cuts PERMANENT

thereby locking us into structural deficits as far as the eye can see. That means that for the next 10-20 years we will have to deal with these teabaggers every 6 months as the debt authorization keeps coming up.

Obama has GUARANTEED that our programs will be slashed over and over again. Obama is only 2% away from Grover Norquist. Is that really what we voted for?

The "lesser of evils" was only lesser by 2% it seems.

[vi5]

78. Does anyone really think....

That somehow after Obama agrees to and the Senate overwhelmingly passes the $450K threshold for making them permanent that somehow in the new year they're going to grow a bigger set of balls and not use that as the mark?

[Enrique]

84. by "dead forever"

you mean "extended permanently" for the first time.