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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsWhy there is an E after the U in Robt Muellers name
Robert Muller's proper name in German was spelled with an umlaut over the U, but only one E.
This might be Muller with an umlaut if my copy and paste transfers the umlaut: Robert Müller.
Robert Muller of course died yday. RIP Herr Muller.
In German, an umlaut (oom lowt) is a diacritic which slightly alters the pronunciation of the 3 letters a, o, and u, as well as the couplet au. An umlaut is two dots atop the letter a, o, or u - one more dot than the similar dot above the English lower case I. The colon : would be an umlaut sideways, rotate 90 degrees for the umlaut.
The umlaut alters pronunciation by simply rounding the lips, like kissing mum or sister on the forehead, and then pronouncing the letters in English as saying the long a, long o, long u (pronounce the U as oo, not yoo). Do it now and you can detect a slight difference between the long English vowel and the umlauted vowel, though it sounds nearly the same with a tonality difference.
The umlauted German word Madchen (young girl) is thus close to Maid chen, rather than mad chen.
German Ostlich (easterly) rhymes close with toast lick. OL (oil) close with sole. Muller as moo ler.
The umlauted au is most famous in the German 'fraulein' where the umlauted au sound is like English ow, so close to Frow line - not froy line as some do. Fraulein is also a young lady.
My iPad does not have umlaut capability, which was essentially the reason for the added E after the 3 vowels a, o, and u, as I will explain.
About the 1960's, perhaps earlier, American and British typewriters and keyboards also did not have the capability to type an umlaut. So when umlauted words and names such as Muller appeared in English newspapers and many documents, the umlaut was perforce missing, German words mispronounced, and Muller was pronounced as a short U, rhyming with duller.
A few umlauted words such as Uber were pronounced more properly as oober, surely due the well known song 'Deutschland uber alles'.
The Germans became so perplexed at hearing their umlauted words being mispronounced so frequently as short English vowels that they developed a strategy to correct the misperceptions.
They realized that by placing an E after the A, O, and U, of course easily done on typewriters, the English speaker would pronounce the 3 vowels as long rather than short, which is indeed a rule of thumb in English, though not absolute. Due, rue, sue, doe, hoe, foe, toe, aeleron, aerobics.
And thus the written German umlauted word would be pronounced more properly as a long vowel. That was the hope and desire!
Alas, over the years the E stratagem has tended to be disregarded at least in America, as evidenced by our general mispronouncing Muller, still as rhyming with duller.
2naSalit
(102,479 posts)ue substitute is what my SIL used in her name that had an umlaut over the u.
Fiendish Thingy
(23,084 posts)Why does the Governor of California spell his name Newsom instead of the more popular (at least on DU) Newsome?
Why, when someone doesnt win a game, election etc. they lose instead of the more phonetically logical loose?
These are just a few of my Favourite Things I never think about
Igel
(37,516 posts)It induces fronting.
/ u / is rounded, high and back in the mouth. The IPA / y / is rounded, high, but front in the mouth. French < ou > v < u >.
Same for / o /, rounded, back, and mid versus the umlauted variety: both are rounded and mid, but the umlauted variety is fronted. French also has both phones.
/ a / is a bit different because the low vowel space is more constrained. You'd think the fronted or 'umlauted' version would be /ae/ (as a single glyph) but instead it's raised in most dialects into the phonetic space occupied historically by some mid-front unrounded vowel. Maybe it resulted in a (likely) push chain that caused speakers to merge the mid-front unrounded vowels to make space, maybe it merged with one of the unrounded front vowels.
Usually the German umlaut resulted from compensatory lengthening, so that the resulting vowel was lengthened and fronted. (We had lengthening in English from loss of final < e > (for want of a better representation), and in some cases it did affect the vowel quality and not just vowel length. In some cases the change was levelled, in some classes cut-syllable timing did the trick or tri-syllabic shortening overrode the outcome. But it's been a long time since I looked at English historical phonology; my German h.r. is much more recent.
How rounded front vowels are borrowed into other languages or how they change over time within a language varies in ways I can't explain and haven't always seen explained satisfactorily. Take "revue", with its / y / (same as umlauted < u >
. In English it comes out as "you"; but in Czech it's "ee". "Revue" might be "ree-'vyue" in English, but it's clearly "'reh-vee" in Czech.
(But I'm a physic sciences high school teacher, so what do I know?)
Bavorskoami
(169 posts)... Jeek? or Hedgehog? (The subject line would not accept the "" when I previewed my reply)
Not too often one sees posts here referencing both German and Czech. My user name gives away something about me if you know them both.
Very good explainer on the German umlauted vowels.
Also thanks for the info on "revue" in Czech. I would have pronounced it like the German, and I think most Czechs would accept it coming from me, but good to know. Maybe I should have known because "menu" works the same (sounds like "meny"
jimmy the one
(2,803 posts)Thank you for the in depth insight, truly. I only wish I understood half of it!
I think in a previous occupation, you a linguist yes?
I had two years high school German and two years in college - two semesters I think. All we were taught was the rounded lips method for the umlaut. I think this is not the rounded you refer to, is it?
Do you agree with my pronunciation guide for a o u au?
As far as what we know, there are far more things in the world which we do not know, as opposed to what we do know. And that pertains to all the eight billion people in here. We only excel in what we study or learn from experience.
Latin I can pronounce well, tho I understand little of what I am saying. Erk. The mispronunciation of many Latin words and terms is annoying, such as Pontius Pilate, which was in his time, phonetically, Pone tee oose Pee lah tay...... E pluribus unum is >> aye 'ploo ree boose oo num.
So simply put, what is fronting and rounding. These will be new experiences.
Emrys
(9,097 posts)You wrote:
No. Östlich is pronounced more like (clumsy attempts at non-IPA phonetic explanations ahead) erstlich (don't roll the r) or uhstlich; Öl is pronounced to rhyme with earl (again don't roll the r) or uhl.
You wrote:
No. Fräulein is definitely pronounced froyline. Without the umlaut, the au combination would sound like ow, as in the German word Maus (English mouse).
In medieval times (way before the timescale you mentioned), when the orthography (way of writing) of German was still evolving more quickly than it is nowadays, scribes used to write a superscript e after the vowel they wanted to modify. Over time, this developed into the umlauted letter forms as we know them. If a certain font nowadays doesn't include the umlauted versions, using, say, oe for ö is an alternative in German, though it can look a bit archaic.
In English nowadays, in the absence of the umlauted forms, the guidance is more often to substitute the un-umlauted form of the letter, though this can grate on anyone who knows German.
Other than that, listen to Igel.
jimmy the one
(2,803 posts)Yes I can agree with ertslich for ostlich, tho I think more a blend of ost / toast and erst, to get urst. Rounding the lips and pronouncing the long O does sound a bit like ohr, or uhr. Ditto with OL.
Since you are adamant as to fraulein being froylein, I guess I have been under a misconception since my college days. What I said about far more we do not know bites backwards too sometimes as to what we think we know. A fluent German would say froylein then?
I did pass 3 or 4 semesters of 3 and 4 credit physics at uni Maryland, en route to bs degree half century back, tho not in physics. I think B and C grades. Seemed logical and factual.
Cheers Emrys.
Emrys
(9,097 posts)then more briefly at university, so I'm familiar with its pronunciation, though I've no doubt by now forgotten much more than I ever learned.
I'm also a Welsh speaker, and one of its features is that its vowel sounds are "pure" compared to UK English. For example, UK English speakers in most regional accents outside the north of England would likely pronounce most vowels as dipthongs - "bale" for instance, would be pronounced as "bayl", whereas in Welsh and German we don't dipthong-ize vowels, so I was complimented on my German pronunciation, at least, by native German speakers. (It also helped with the ch sound, which Welsh also has.)
If you search on Google for the word Fräulein, the first result, for me at least, reads
Definitions from Oxford Languages · Learn more
Fräulein
/ˈfrɔɪlʌɪn/
noun
noun: Fräulein; plural noun: Fräuleins
a title or form of address for an unmarried German-speaking woman, especially a young woman.
"Fräulein Winkelmann"
and it includes a speaker icon. If you click on it, it gives an audio pronunciation of the word, which is as I explained.
(That definition assumes you want to define the word as it's been borrowed into English - in German, Fräuleins is definitely not the plural form!)
Here's another site that'll read you the word as spoken by a variety of German speakers, again as I explained: https://forvo.com/word/fr%C3%A4ulein/
Dread Pirate Roberts
(2,000 posts)hemorrohids are on you ass? Shouldn't it be the other way around?
LudwigPastorius
(14,672 posts)
LeftInTX
(34,207 posts)I knew alot of Muellers where I lived. We more or less pronounced it as a variation of "Miller". The "i" was softer with a lazy pronouncation as a opposed to Miller. That's how you could tell Miller from Mueller without seeing the name spelling. We didn't pronounce it Muller.
I'm not a phonics person by any means, so I'm probably not explaining this very well...
jimmy the one
(2,803 posts)Muller with umlaut, means miller in German. Miller Muller, potato potahto, ha!
You are familiar with various pronunciations, but during trumps first term the Mueller investigation was mostly pronounced by tv talking heads as 'the Muller Report', rhyming with duller.
Here is a somewhat relevant story from Austin Texas which corroborates my thread premise.
With the glaring exception that this is not the Robert Mueller of this thread. I read somewhere that Muller with umlaut is the most common surname in Germany, so coincidental.
Author does use E instead of U to make his point, I think valid as well as U.
Within the whole article, author does say that Mueller was often pronounced Miller.
Mueller Family Robert Mueller Sr., 1881-1927
"The 'UE' letter sequence is a transliteration of the umlaut," Hinrichs said. "That is a sound English doesn't have ... it's like saying 'E,' but rounding your lips. I will leave it to your listeners to practice it by themselves, but it does not exist in English."
Austin newcomers, he said, will simply pronounce the name as it is spelled.
"It's spelled M-U-E," Hinrichs said. "How does English typically pronounce M-U-E? Well we're going to say [MEW-ler]."
https://www.kut.org/austin/2016-02-19/austin-texas-right-way-pronounce-mueller
spinbaby
(15,387 posts)Just hold down the letter you want an umlaut on and choose the proper accent. I am typing this on an iPad: üäö. See?
jimmy the one
(2,803 posts)I see what you are saying and yes a small 5 letter menu with umlaut and 4 other diacritics appear after holding down the letter key, but disappears when I lift the finger. So how do you activate it again? Mine is a fairly old iPad.
Might only work with vowels it appears.
ColoringFool
(657 posts)Sentence dismayed me.
We aren't "mispronouncing" Muller or Mueller; we are pronouncing the name as the deceased wished (I presume, as I have not read where Robert corrected anyone).
And pronunciation is the prerogative of the holder.
Emrys
(9,097 posts)The brothers pronounce it "Coke" (well Charles does, and David did), and Ed pronounced it "Kotch". In German, it would end in a ch sound, which some folks evidently have problems pronouncing.