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H2O Man

(79,149 posts)
Wed Apr 22, 2026, 11:56 PM Wednesday

Just Another Day

“Until we stop harming all other living beings, we are still savages.” – Thomas Jefferson

Years ago, I took a course on Alternatives to Violence, a Quaker program initially focused on teaching skills to the inmate population. Later, as it expanded, some of the Onondaga Clan Mothers would meet with the Quakers, and add to the program. In many ways, it is similar to the Iroquois' “Power of the Good Mind” from the teachings of Ayenwatha, who is also known as Hiawatha. (The real human being, not the character of Longfellow's poem.)

When I worked in Delaware County, I would use this in dealing with cases involving domestic abuse of all types. Then, in Chenago County, I used them in both jail and domestic abuse groups, with men and women. And I used it as part of a twenty-week course combining mental health, substance abuse/addiction/social services, for parents at risk of losing all custody rights. Some found benefit in it, others didn't.

There are some concepts that are important to put into practice. One has to recognize that others have different life experiences, and thus can view things differently, and hold different opinions. To recognize that the other person/people have the ability to be honest and tell the truth. To be non-confrontational, and speak in a conversational tone. To never be so foolish as to claim the ability to tell another what they are thinking. To focus on the issue at hand.

Now, these things are practiced in lots and lots of homes across this great country. They tend to be skills that parents model for their children, and thus are handed down in generations. But there are people who did not grow up in such homes, who lack these skills, and thus are unable to teach what they don't know. It becomes generation upon generation. (It's important to note that children raised in such a home can and frequently do recognize that violence is not a swell way to deal with disagreements.)

There are certain behaviors that are discouraged. One cannot make threats of any kind either before or after attempts to negotiate a solution to the problem. That obviously includes internet threats intended to intimidate the other into a total surrender to your will. On the local, micro-level, that results in having a judge decide which way the wind blows. That judge will read the reports from agencies, and listen to testimony from a range of people that includes the authors of those reports.

In other contexts that include harsh disagreements, a couple may use the services known as “marriage counseling.” Properly done, this includes someone trained in this field serving to guide the way to a resolution. In international disputes, that might be someone from a third country. This, of course, requires that the involved parties trust that person.

Now, in a dispute that may be headed to court, or is in court, both sides have the right to be represented by an attorney. Someone educated in the law, who passed the bar test. While, say, a great auto mechanic might be a witness, they can't represent someone else in court. Likewise, in international disputes, during negotiations, each country is represented by diplomats, who are trained in that specific field. Up until this administration, a couple of real estate billionaires who are not part of the administration or approved by the Senate, wholly intent upon accessing real estate deals to enrich themselves, would never have been tasked as diplomats.

We wouldn't consider the selection of someone who wants to build a McDonald's in Gaza, or a dollar store in the West Bank, to be a wonderful way to represent our country. Or someone as crooked as, say, Mr. Haney from Green Acres, because there cannot be trust when it comes to slime balls. Such a thing could only happen if one is not really serious about resolving a dispute.

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Just Another Day (Original Post) H2O Man Wednesday OP
I tend to think that that he is interested in resolving the dispute(he's bored, realizes this makes him look bad, etc), flying rabbit Thursday #1
Right. H2O Man Thursday #4
Thanks for sharing that. A good point you made but also appreciated the summary of your class nt lostnfound Thursday #2
Thank you. H2O Man Thursday #6
Thanks H20 Man jfz9580m Thursday #3
Interesting. H2O Man Thursday #7
I am not surprised jfz9580m Yesterday #9
The Queen of Soul spelled it out... Kid Berwyn Thursday #5
Very good! H2O Man Thursday #8

flying rabbit

(4,987 posts)
1. I tend to think that that he is interested in resolving the dispute(he's bored, realizes this makes him look bad, etc),
Thu Apr 23, 2026, 01:10 AM
Thursday

But he has only one tool in his toolbox. It is the wrong one for this (most) situation(s),and he keeps using it over, and over.

H2O Man

(79,149 posts)
4. Right.
Thu Apr 23, 2026, 01:41 PM
Thursday

In the infamous Situation Room meeting, Netanyahu convinced the president it would be a brief military exercise that would topple the Iranian government. Despite three administration officials telling him that an attack would not result in the 3rd and 4th step of the plan that Netanyahu laid out, the idea of watching bombs go off and becoming the global strong man/hero took root. And here we are today.

He feels trapped. He wants out, but there are two things preventing a cut & run. The first is it risks his being recognized as a "loser." The second is, of course, Netanyahu. Thus, he resorts to that tool of threats and bluffs. And it doesn't fit the situatin.

lostnfound

(17,579 posts)
2. Thanks for sharing that. A good point you made but also appreciated the summary of your class nt
Thu Apr 23, 2026, 09:35 AM
Thursday

H2O Man

(79,149 posts)
6. Thank you.
Thu Apr 23, 2026, 02:03 PM
Thursday

I had originally posted this on another internet site, where a few maga attempt to argue with me. Thus, I attempted to provide a step-by-step description of what conflict resolution requires, as well as what prevents it from working. Thus far, none of the maga have taken the opportunity to engage in a debate, where they focus on the errors in my thinking.

jfz9580m

(17,489 posts)
3. Thanks H20 Man
Thu Apr 23, 2026, 10:54 AM
Thursday

Last edited Thu Apr 23, 2026, 11:28 AM - Edit history (1)

A helpful read. Conflict is unfortunately on my mind a lot. I am in a conflict that has zero possibility of resolution where I live in India.

I have been trying to formulate a simple strategy for minimalism in communication.

There is no reason why I should be miserable because of the corruption and misogyny of those I deal with locally.

It frustrates one to use internal frameworks too far outside science to navigate the world.

Otoh it should not be the sort of hack-like effort popular with people I tend to avoid.

Never enjoyed communication much 🫤. But it ends up being more time consuming a chore to shirk than to put some effort into.

Maybe communication should be framed as more than an unavoidable and meaningless chore to muddle one’s way through.

I have no investment in resolving any disputes or complaints locally. But I do in salvaging my existence separately from external impositions forced on one using inane metaphoric leaps.

Game theory is not a bad framework, though it is used by a subset of public “intellectuals” I tend to lump into a category I label “pretentious, annoying and creepy charlatan/dilettante who likes the sound of his voice” (e.g.: Jonathan Haidt, Steven Pinker).

My apologies if you respect either btw. They are generally unpopular with people left of centre though.

If my creepy and corrupt state here in India tried a program like the one you describe it would just be a creepy and invasive fraud.

This is not the US. I can tell that the stuff I have seen here in India (that is outside the routine) is just harassment, fraud and misconduct contaminating anything it touches that works here or anywhere.

Short of a criminal case the techies, hospitals, gamers etc here will never get the message.

And as someone stuck with an internal voice that has a range spanning angry child to angry teen in this context it has been difficult.

I have thought a lot lately of this para from 1984 when pondering unpleasant chores:

Winston's greatest pleasure in life was in his work. Most of it was a tedious routine, but included in it there were also jobs so difficult and intricate that you could lose yourself in them as in the depths of a mathematical problem—delicate pieces of forgery in which you had nothing to guide you except your knowledge of the principles of Ingsoc and your estimate of what the Party wanted you to say. Winston was good at this kind of thing. On occasion he had even been entrusted with the rectification of 'The Times' leading articles, which were written entirely in Newspeak. He unrolled the message that he had set aside earlier.


Seems especially fitting given how our relationship with information is changing dramatically.

I am a scientific researcher not a subject in poorly conceived and misconduct riddled experiments very inappropriately bridging real life and the net coercively.

Complaints aside, I am trying to distinguish and distance myself from anything I would anyway end up going to the police over.

Because chaos and confusion are very much in the alt right toolkit, not to mention similar types the world over.

But that aside, I still enjoy science - work or play.

Edit: Your post made me think of The Human Terrain Systems. Especially this part:

We wouldn't consider the selection of someone who wants to build a McDonald's in Gaza, or a dollar store in the West Bank, to be a wonderful way to represent our country. Or someone as crooked as, say, Mr. Haney from Green Acres, because there cannot be trust when it comes to slime balls. Such a thing could only happen if one is not really serious about resolving a dispute.


The HTS had a few interesting ideas. But it fell apart over fraud and sexual harassment allegations. What did they expect with the kind of lousy oversight defense contracting, gig work etc go with? And plausible deniability is the go to when people already use deception and tests as valid methodologies.

Now what is cool is Sesame Street’s ‘one of these things isn’t like the other’ to extricate the 0.00000000000000000001% of something cool out of this icky mess of information, machines, humans etc.

i am on DU as it is a rare part of the net I am cool with, recognising that while it comes with ordinary net characteristics, it has a definite operating principle I fully understand and respect. The admins are trustworthy. How anyone uses Zuckerberg etc’s tools seriously confounds me.

H2O Man

(79,149 posts)
7. Interesting.
Thu Apr 23, 2026, 06:43 PM
Thursday

I'm familiar with both Haidt and Pinker, but not enough so to have a positive or negative opinion of either. Their areas of focus are interesting, I think, but neither of them speak to me. (I took the time to look through my library before responding, to make sure I didn't have any books by either, just in case at some previous time I had been interested in them.)

About a decade ago, my old daughter studied in India. I cannot think of the woman's name off the top of my head, but there was a leader in teaching the sustainable methods of growing food in rural areas. She made a huge impression on my daughter, who now lives in Europe.

It is a struggle for me these days to leave my home & property. I am more interested in sitting near my pond, or interacting with my children and grandchildren. Besides grocery shopping monthly, I do attend rallies. For some mysterious reason that I can't put my finger on, I did agree to do a public presentation in the late summer. But I'm too old and worn out to try to keep up the pace of activism that I once did.

jfz9580m

(17,489 posts)
9. I am not surprised
Fri Apr 24, 2026, 02:43 AM
Yesterday

That you still own books H20 man. I could never get a digital reader. I have missed reading more than any other thing in the past 14+ years.

I don’t post Current Affairs here very often as they do bash democrats. But Robinson is pretty savvy. He kinda represents the left zeitgeist I fit into where I find contemporary society so ill-fitting and have forever outside of things like this interaction (which does require technology). But I don’t think that the ugly implementation of anything you see these days is the only possible one.

It is a common tactic to make a type of left I belong to (though formerly less vocally) seem impractical or childish at a time when so many things the sensible or something sell are such a constant disaster. The worst would be calling me “overprivileged” or “lazy” etc for merely understanding some things people who only work and think in crowds fail to get.

I am privileged, but I don’t think sending me to the poorhouse (psychologjcally if not materially) is going to fix society’s woes. On the whole if I can work and play, but meeting some minimal standards that were common just 15 years ago, it is better for most everyone but Google, Facebook, Amazon, Tata, Reliance and small creepy ai companies one cannot even catch as easily.

There is a type of information the powers that be are trying to force as “inevitable” as they back a permacrisis and want to be forgiven for errors that aren’t going to be forgiven unless you are so myopic and hopeless that you can’t remember life from 15 years ago and have bought into a hustle culture worldview that is imposed using how much strain all populations are under.

I was looking at one of Rhiannon’s posts about a group of women fighting Texas’s insane abortion laws and thinking that it is so hard to take things on legally once they are codified into law.
While it is still Google declarations and things these guys do illicitly bts that one doesn’t recognize as a part of civil society, it is legally more potent in the long run to refuse to acknowledge stuff tech and private equity etc try to force, while engaging normally with the rare things one does engage with.

We don’t know how ai and tech regulation will proceed but Lina Khan was a move in the right direction.

A state of ignorance (feigned or real) that allows you to reject things before they are legitimized is essential. Its feigned in my case as I don’t actually talk honestly like this to most people or all the time. I find it hard to be honest outside the most serious type of left.

Even if it has nothing to do with any election or any formally defined thing. Tech has essentially turned tge clock back to the law of the jungle and now they want to force all sorts of compromises and that is NEVER going to happen, but constantly misrepresenting protesters is easy.

My “common ground” with the right is only when some stopped clock thing happens destroying something that is popular on both sides but I think is garbage destroying society like TikTok or celebrity culture. I consider those things such a cancer that anything that derails them has pluses in the long run imo. But that is just randomness and chaos.

We are where we are today because a lot of people made unconscionable choices when they were completely unstressed (no pregnancy or job insecurity) and that cannot be forgiven.

And communication has become harder as we do live in “The Society of the Spectacle”. A concept I found via Yasha Levine, which was brilliant. Till then I was really struggling to understand why I find even the concept of resolution insulting in the context of the reality we are all in.

For instance women operate in areas where it may just take too long to explain things that should be obvious about stuff that isn’t a nuisance for fhe male half of the species as much. But an endless and lame conversation about solidarity and all sorts of overobvious banalities (but which will doubtless be exploited by the creepy powers that be) would be fuel for the worst kinds of cottage industries.
Though the sheer stupidity of technocrats, the fact that not even hostages can give up information to them may be a “growth opportunity” for the type of sane lefty intelligence that cannot be gamed as lefties I trust don’t try to get away with stuff and it is innate and adapts to surveillance. But it would be nice if the personal cost was lower.


The ability to read other human minds adequately to communicate honestly.. I can read some minds well enough for a type of “telepathy” that is not Epstein funded (a reference to a creepy UCSD guy V.S.Ramachandran). And sometimes like-minded enough people reveal things without realizing it that can be interpreted by friendly forces adequately to buffer against machinic malice (e.g.: this creepy guy Eliezer Kudkowsky’s creepy “friendly ai”).

I was reading this just yesterday. I like Troy Farah (he is sweet..like a lot of these much younger people who are really not even doing anything so much as representing signs that everything may not just go belly up):

https://www.salon.com/2026/04/23/is-war-central-to-human-nature-chimps-cant-tell-us-everything/

It is always the specific humans.

Anyway I digress. But you would understand.
Your work must have been really hard. I can appreciate that now. I was never a people person except superficially as far as socializing goes. But I am not tuned out so much as taken aback that these creepy people in tech and entertainment and gaming continually refuse to get the magnitude of their offenses against society because fewer people increasingly will even remember a world that was nothing like this.

And it is not work that can be performed by a machine.

Because nothing worthwhile can. We already have calculators and scripts and such. They are just tools. I can say that the press may just have to suck up eventually being hated by most honest humans as they really are soulless shirkers.

Anyway this is Stephen Pinker fwiw. I thought it was altogether too flattering a profile, but that aside I agree:

https://www.currentaffairs.org/news/2019/05/the-worlds-most-annoying-man

Thanks H20 man. I hope the work you did comes back in society in new forms hut it takes effort and time. I am not even that opposed to technology in its domain. I buy vegan sweets and some clean food bars from people operating within the normal constraints of the modern economy.

Of all people Tim Cook of Apple had this one stopped clock insight for his ilk that tech should stop trying to get away with stuff. My resources are meaningless if they are just grabbed and redistributed by tech creeps claiming “but that’s what marxists do and you said you are on the left and like Spock so this logically consistent!” I am on the left but rethinking my opinion of Spock if he would consider all this logically consistent. South Park probably got it better with it’s episode “cancelled”.

But my mom and I did like to see small pieces of greenery sort of defiantly poke their heads out even in concrete jungles. Mom used to say “nature finds a way”. And if human life cannot survive except in the degraded form the brainless powers that be force with entertainment modules, actvism the module from Apple! How sensible people do it!

I couldn’t interact with you all without tech. But that is not excuse to throw in more and more bilge.

It’s mostly EarlG and elad. They are the admins, but I would not be here if it was some generic board administered by some Apple democrat. Still better than a Republican. Activism, socializing and engagement cannot be forced.

Importantly, I do not think gig work or ai can replace the kind of work you used to do. What its new form is remains to be seen.

I really should save and organize the information that I respond to. Otoh this may not be that type of information.

Have you heard of Andy Nikiforuk? I think you would like him H20 man.

Kid Berwyn

(24,768 posts)
5. The Queen of Soul spelled it out...
Thu Apr 23, 2026, 01:52 PM
Thursday

R-E-S-P-E-C-T



Sock it to me. Aretha was friends with Duane Allman.

H2O Man

(79,149 posts)
8. Very good!
Thu Apr 23, 2026, 06:46 PM
Thursday

At some point, while I'm still above dirt, I hope the two of us can sit down, listen to music, and talk.

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