We have a rape problem in this country

[Taverner]

I'm not saying we have the most rapes or the most violent, but it's our attitude.

When a whole town can protect rapists who drugged, raped and then shared pics of the event - and no one does anything, including the police, there is a rape problem

When an entire Football Apparatus can protect a child molester who rapes small children, and no one does anything - there is a rape problem

When a reporter is sexually molested in Egypt, and the media's response is "you had it coming" - there is a rape problem

[EOTE]

1. I think every country has a rape problem.

But we stick out very poorly in comparison to the rest of the developed world. I don't think that other first world countries need to worry nearly as much about systemic coverups and absues like Steubenville, though.

[Taverner]

2. You are probably right - But I can only speak to ours

Since to not notice it you'd have to be blind

[awoke_in_2003]

168. Sadly, my birthplace is Syeubenville...

it never makes news in a food way.

[Electric Monk]

170. (reported to police) Rape statistics per-capita (according to wiki)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_statistics#UN_Rape_Statistics

Rate per 100,000 population (semi-random sample of countries that had stats for 2009 and 2010)
Country 2009 2010
Botswana 88.5 92.9
Jamaica 25.5 24.4
Mexico 13.3 13.2
Bolivia 20.4 26.1
U.S.A. 29.0 27.3
Canada 1.4 1.7
Ukraine 1.7 1.4
Greece 1.9 1.9
Spain 4.5 3.4
Australia 7.0 8.1
Ireland 8.5 10.7

[redqueen]

3. No, it is global. It is a misogyny problem. When western liberals pat themselves on the back

for being so very advanced when it comes to women's issues, or when atheists pat themselves on the back for being so so much more enlightened on these issues than religious people, they are often demonstrating how much they don't know.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/10/12/world/europe/in-france-light-gang-rape-penalties-prompt-outcry.html?_r=0

[Taverner]

4. You are probably right - I just can't speak to other countries' problems

But there is a problem here - and I think the meme going around right now is absolutely correct.

"Instead of teaching your daughter how to dress, teach your sons not to rape"

[redqueen]

11. It is good to see the focus finally changing,

and fewer people attacking others for making that argument.

[Taverner]

13. The key to any social change is empathy

How we get it - no clue

I have been pushing empathy to my kids since day one, and I hope it does the trick

[redqueen]

20. Empathy for women is scarce due to rampant misogyny.

Even other women most often reflect society's patriarchal values.

[Taverner]

22. Yes, this is true. Roman Pater Familias never left our culture.

[redqueen]

25. Thanks for making me think of O Brother Where Art Thou?

[phylny]

102. OMG, I know this is a serious subject,

but I'm glad it's not just me. The minute I read that, all I could think of was, "I am the damn paterfamilias!"

And, to get back on topic, I think there was and has always been a worldwide problem with rape. In too many places, disrespect and disregard for others runs rampant.

[Taverner]

152. "Pater Familias" is more of a problem than we think

The idea was as a Roman Citizen, you could sell your children into slavery. You could rape your slave without any retribution. You could do whatever if you were the eldest MAN of your FAMILY.

Your home is YOUR property, not your wives', not your kids' - but YOURS!

And that includes all wives and children.

This was one of the fundamentals Romans fought for.

They found egalitarianism as "barbarian."

They truly believed it is a "Man's World."

[snooper2]

31. Atheists are more enlightened, why you have to bring that into it?

[redqueen]

32. "on these issues" no, they are not. nt

[AtheistCrusader]

44. Care to substantiate that?

[redqueen]

50. Read about Elevatorgate.

Rape culture was treated like a joke, the idea was mocked, the women who tried educating their peers were mocked, and to this day there remains a current of denial and outright hostility toward feminists who dare to confront these issues.

There is evidence of this right here on DU.

[MynameisBlarney]

62. Care to enlighten

us heathens?

[AtheistCrusader]

72. So, one guy that may havebehaved badly, and Dawkins was exorciorated for it by the broader atheist

community, is your evidence? One guy?

Rape is a violation of non-aggression. It's right up there with murder, for most atheist philosophers. To be more offensive, you'd have to actually kill someone.

I don't agree with Dawkins' explanation of his comments. I kind of see what he's trying to say, but he himself is making assumptions about how Watson felt about the encounter, dismissive of her interpretation of the event. (Just push a button and get out, whiner) That's not right. If the advance was creepy or made her feel trapped, and an unwanted advance, she has a right to say so, and she has a right to be offended.

Not having been in the elevator, I can't do anything to objectively determine if it was a harmless advance, or a genuinely creepy thing, but I CAN accept that she was genuinely offended by it.

[redqueen]

76. This debate has been played out ad nauseam.

I'm glad you see how fucked up Dawkins' comments were.

If you missed the widespread hatred directed at RW for daring to call out one single manifestation of rape culture, you're very lucky.

[AtheistCrusader]

89. I've been to her site.

I've seen some of the bile on Twitter and such that has been directed at her. I have absolutely NO CLUE what the religious affiliation of those sources are. This could easily have risen to the attention level of non-atheists.

I could also probably do a venn diagram in which some atheists overlap into circles labeled 'asshole trolls'.

I don't see this as an indictment of Atheists as a group. I'd like to see some actual peer reviewed evidence gauging the general opinions of, for instance, male atheists towards feminism, versus general population.

I will accept your position in that there may still be a widespread issue within our subculture, but I don't think this proves it.

[redqueen]

92. I didn't indict atheists as a group, nor liberals.

I simply pointed out that the 'us vs. them' idea, wherein 'we' have it right and 'they' have it wrong are not justified where rape culture is concerned.

I'm on my phone, but here is a snapshot.
http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?p=8729910

I could provide plenty more evidence, there is no shortage of it.

[AtheistCrusader]

111. I wouldn't use the absolutist 'right'.

Maybe 'better'? I'm not trying to take this into 'no true Scotsman' territory, but your original statement is more certain than that.

"when atheists pat themselves on the back for being so so much more enlightened on these issues than religious people"

We don't institutionalize patriarchy or misogyny, for starters. That's being 'so so much better' right there, in my estimate. Just the fact that so many turned their backs on, or criticized Dawkins for that incident speaks volumes. (And I suspect someday Dawkins will come to see his comments for the callousness he displayed, and will probably regret it)

Treating women as equals isn't a light switch that flips the moment someone becomes an atheist. It's part and parcel of a whole new worldview that people slowly adopt, some around humanism, some around self-ownership/first principles, etc.

I don't necessarily expect a person raised in a patriarchal society to instantly come to the right conclusion on gender equality or feminism the moment they stop believing there's an invisible security camera in the sky that demands they behave. (or worse, said invisible security camera carries dogma attached that institutionalizes misogyny.)

I don't have any numbers to back it up, and I am curious to see some, but I would hazard a guess, that even just taking into account the non-institutionalization of patriarchy in atheism as a worldview, puts us leaps and bounds ahead of most theists. (Perhaps excluding pagans?)

[redqueen]

122. Yes, better...

but that reminds me of USians patting ourselves on the back for being "better" than Saddam Hussein.

Again I am not indicting all USians, only the portion who view these things as being more black and white than on a sliding scale.

I agree with you about the slow rate of change, however the frustration comes from the fact that we have in most ways been regressing on these issues for the past 40 years. And I also agree about excepting pagans.

[AtheistCrusader]

134. You know we're not allowed to agree on an issue that starts out so contentious?

I think it's agin' the rules, somewhere.

[tkmorris]

127. Very good post this

So many people I know view Atheism merely as a "Dearth of Religion", focusing completely on what Atheists do not make part of their lives. What those people rarely seem to understand is that Atheists do not usually stop there. All of the assumptions and attitudes, the rules and moral codes, EVERYTHING has to be torn down and reconstructed from scratch. We, as you say, adopt an entirely new worldview over time that, if one is diligent, removes the archaic and patriarchal beliefs that are so inherent to most religious doctrines.

[tama]

155. Atheism is neutral non-belief

but many materialists disguise and confuse their belief system with atheism - and with science.

Scientific and academic real life social and mental structures are certainly not free from "archaic and patriarchal beliefs", if you ask feminist epistemology and philosophy of science:
http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/feminism-epistemology/

[Major Nikon]

109. I just don't see a subculture of atheism at all

The only thing common to atheists is just a rejection of religious belief. While some may band together due to common interests, the largest of those would do well to represent a tiny sliver of the whole of atheism.

[AtheistCrusader]

115. That's why I called out two subgroups.

Humanism, and first principles.

Take away the invisible security camera in the sky and people usually start looking for some other foundational philosophy. (Whether they know the names of those philosophy's or not)

Edit: whoops, I didn't specify that in the post you responded to. I suggested subgroups one post downthread.

[Major Nikon]

101. Yet you still can't see the problem with your comment

You denigrate all atheists because you don't like the comments that came from one of them and those who may have dared to disagree with you or others. That mentality is not much different than that which you rail against and the fact that you can't even begin to see it goes along way toward explaining the hostility you claim to encounter.

Just sayin'

[redqueen]

116. Tell us again about rape... and how the "'no means no' meme is bullshit"

and how the poor rapist may have only been trying to become her fantasy.

[Major Nikon]

158. You mean you want me to repost the empirical study done by two academic feminists?

The one that was published in the Journal of Personality and Social Psychology?

I'm not really sure what that has to do with a bigoted statement about atheism. You diversionary reply does offer more insight, though. Perhaps I'll reference it myself the next time I notice you posting an accusation of bigotry by someone else.

Just sayin'

[tama]

154. Atheism and materialism

are not same things, but get easily confused and mixed together. Materialistic philosophy or metaphysics and it's propagandizers and preachers is dominantly a male club with lot's of patriarchal structures and attitudes left.

[AtheistCrusader]

163. That venue is certainly male-dominated.

Grant that. Not sure if it's protected at that level as a patriarchy, or rather, it's a reflection/end result of how much (or, rather, little) this country values women in fields like particle physics. (I can think of only ONE off the top of my head, sadly.)

I have seen significant barriers to entry in these fields long before high school.

[LWolf]

33. Agreed.

The U.S., and the rest of the world, has a very long way to go.

Meanwhile, we seem to be regressing here at home.

[MynameisBlarney]

51. I read this article you linked

and unless I have missed something, I fail to see that it has anything to do with what you posted along with it.
Again, unless I missed something, your comment appears to be a totally misplaced jab at liberals and atheists with an unrelated link.

[redqueen]

84. Taverner said the US has a rape problem.

The link highlights one single case which shows this problem is global, even in the most liberal, most socially conscious countries.

The observations which you refer to as a misplaced jab highlight the fact that although the majority of people who are so comfortable observing these situations when they happen in Arab countries, in African countries, etc, are reacting as if these incidents were completely out of the blue, when the fact is they really are not all that rare or unique.

IOW there is a common sentiment that 'we' treat 'our' women so much better than those 'backwards' places, look we let our women drive and get abortions (mostly)... when in reality the difference is not nearly as great as it should be

[MynameisBlarney]

95. Ah

ok, thanks for elaborating.
I think I get where you're coming from now.
But wasn't France under fairly conservative rule until just recently?
And I still fail to see the connection with liberals and atheists.
But, for the most part, FWIW, I agree with you.

[Iggo]

125. I would've went with "Yes, and it's global."

[L0oniX]

5. We also have a rape problem in our military.

Over 20% of women get raped in the military.

[Taverner]

7. Yes - and the real number is probably much higher

Whistle blowers don't last very long in the military

[L0oniX]

14. I find this much more discusting than rape in the general population.

I don't mean to diminish the criminality of any form of rape but when it's your fellow troops that you are suppose to trust more than usual, sometimes with your life, it is the worst.

[Taverner]

18. Well you know how I feel about Military Training...

And blame the messenger comes to mind every time I post something on it

[L0oniX]

21. Been there ...seen that ...had that happen too. n/t

[patrice]

61. "What happens ___________ stays ______________" ask any military wife.

And I know this is going to get me in trouble, but military really DOES need to talk about alcohol.

[L0oniX]

81. Let's not go down the path of partially blaming drugs (including alcohol) for rape. n/t

"Well she was drunk, stoned and wearing a mini skirt"

[patrice]

94. I was thinking about excuses one might hear from men for why "I misunderstood her";

from the guys' perspectives, during the investigation process.

Drinking is admired. It is a hallmark of friendships and social status. When a rapist says, honestly or not, "I drank too much and I'm sorry", he's often talking to someone else who shares similar alcohol experiences.

[L0oniX]

146. I'm a man. There is no excuse ...good or bad ...for rape.

[patrice]

149. I agree. Just thinking about what goes on "out there". My mind just kind of naturally does

the point:counter-point dialogue even when I try to shut it up.

The power position is ALWAYS the most responsible for whatever happens and it's pretty obvious that the most common bases of power are physical power, the ability to do things without another person's consent or to pose a physical threat of one type or another. There are no excuses for using power of any type and/or threats of any type to coerce another person into sex.

[datasuspect]

6. bosnia

africa

[Taverner]

8. I'm sure it's world wide, but I can only speak to ours

[datasuspect]

12. rape used as a tool of war

systematic rape and sexual slavery.


i had a friend who was a child soldier in bosnia in the 1990s.

he watched his mother, his sisters, and his grandmother all get brutally raped and then murdered. that was after his father and his brother were shot first.

[lunatica]

9. Yes. Women have been speaking out about this forever

It's bad whether it's rape of women, men or children. Funny how so much of this crap is making the news right now, including the pedophile arrests yesterday.

[Taverner]

10. I think it's great that this is finally coming into the open

Maybe, just maybe, we can do something about it

I've always felt America lacked empathy - and if anything these stories have inspired empathy

[Hugabear]

15. Don't forget about prison rape, which is often the fodder for jokes - even here on DU

Rape is rape is rape. It's sickening and dehumanizing, and should never be condoned, excused, tolerated, or joked about.

[Taverner]

17. Yes. Miltary Rape, Prison Rape - we lack empathy on a grand scale

[CrispyQ]

59. "we lack empathy on a grand scale"

The truest, saddest statement I've read in a long time.

Thank you for the thread. Awareness helps. We need to start questioning some of our sacred cows, like athletics & the privileged it extends it's members. Even at the high school level, it is appalling.

[Rex]

16. There is a hidden world

that has a global child slave trade. That has a female slave trade. We have massive problems.

[CrispyQ]

63. rec rec rec

no words

[Aerows]

19. The part that makes me so sick

about the Steubenville situation is just how flippantly those guys talked and laughed about it. Only 1 of them had the guts to say "this isn't right, that's rape."

What do their mothers, sisters and other females in their lives think about them? If that were a relative of mine laughing about a girl who was drugged without her knowledge, raped repeatedly and pissed on, I would shun them for life.

And the town protecting them. That's disgusting. Did they all have their consciences surgically removed? We are talking about a 16 year old that was drugged and raped for heaven's sake. Only a piece of shit would defend that.

[DearAbby]

23. +1

[Rex]

26. The greatest evil in this world is indifference.

That poor girl. I cannot watch the video. I don't want to see them dragging her around like a prop or tool. It is beyond revolting.

[AtheistCrusader]

54. The plot of the indifferent.

– Do not be afraid of enemies; the worst they can do is to kill you. Do not be afraid of friends; the worst they can do is to betray you. Be afraid of the indifferent; they do not kill or betray. But only because of their silent agreement, betrayal and murder exist on earth.

Bruno Yasienski

[Rex]

143. Thank you.

[AtheistCrusader]

145. I was extremely dissapointed how hard that quote was to find

given how many of the keywords I knew by heart.

[Aerows]

142. Too true

I couldn't watch it, either. What I've read is revolting enough

[redqueen]

98. There were two, actually.

Anonymous has identified both of the evolved humans, who told the rape supporters the truth about their horrific words and actions.

This isn't limited to Steubenville, not by a longshot.

The ONLY reason this case is getting all this attention is that this time, someone cared enough to document these monsters bragging and joking online. This happens all the time. And most times the victim is told to shut up, and not ruin some bright young man's future simply because she exercised poor judgement.

[Aerows]

140. For whatever reason

we are discussing it, I still think that it can end with the young woman getting justice, and maybe, just maybe, one young woman will be spared what she went through.

[Scootaloo]

128. Because football

I'm not saying the sport is related to rape at all, it's obviously not. But schools, communities, and families seem to have fucking enormous blind-spots when it comes to the behavior of school athletes.

[Aerows]

141. I agree that

there are huge bind spots when it comes to the behavior of school athletes. It's just so horribly sad how this thing played out. One of her female "friends" helped lure her into the situation. There was plenty of ugliness going on in the whole situation.

[smirkymonkey]

159. +10.000

Those football players make me sick. So does anyone protecting them. They should be prosecuted and charged and never let into a University into their lives. I personally hope they all working at minimum wage jobs for the rest of their lives if they ever get out of prison.

[closeupready]

24. Males are probably raped in numbers equal to females, maybe higher, but

that's a type of rape problem we have in this country which we don't talk about. And frankly, it happens in most places, but we never talk about it. In the military. In prisons. In schools. In parochial environments.

And even when it does come out, there is a lot of pressure to suppress discussion, punishment and/or resolution.

[Helen Reddy]

30. Huh?!

[closeupready]

34. Have a headache?

Wat?

[LisaLynne]

35. Probably.

I suddenly have a stabbing pain, too.

[closeupready]

39. Yes, because male rape is silly/unspeakable.

The two of you have a lot to learn, IMO.

[LisaLynne]

55. You have just created a straw man argument, so ...

I'm glad you're so proud of yourself for it.

[cali]

41. do you have any evidence that men are raped in equal or greater numbers than

women?

Yes, male on male rape occurs in prisons and the military and schools. And women are raped in all those places as well.

Everything I've seen indicates that more women than men are raped- though there is no doubt that male rape is even more under reported.

I wouldn't be surprised to find out that male minors are raped in equal numbers to female minors. I would be surprised if adult men were raped in equal numbers to women.

[closeupready]

58. Not at hand, no.

Certainly, it's reasonable to believe that in muslim societies where females are strictly controlled, male rape is not only as common, but more common, than female rape. Do you disagree?

[cali]

64. no. I do not agree.

do you not understand that women can be and are raped by their husbands? In at least some Muslim countries it takes several male witnesses to convict a man of raping a woman.

[closeupready]

65. Well, that's your perogative.

Women in the US can be and are raped by their husbands, too.

Anyway, I don't think you have a point, other than to pick a fight, so unless you want to tell me what the problem is, I'm done here.

[LisaLynne]

70. The problem is you made a claim that you can't back up.

I understand what I think may have been more your point -- that men are raped, too -- but the way in which you went about it, with no statistics or proof of any kind -- seems suspect to some of us. Most here are only asking that you provide some sort of proof.

What your original post sounds like is that you are saying that the privileged group (men) are suffering more than the unprivileged group (women) from rape. What if someone came to a thread on racism and said that white people are more discriminated against than African Americans, but offered no proof? Could you not see how that would invite a certain amount of discussion?

[closeupready]

100. Suspect as to what, though? What would be my motive here

if I were up to mischief? Even if someone agreed with you that I committed some sort of e-crime here, there is no motive; nothing to gain. I've been a DU member in good standing for a very long time. Do you really think I'd just stir up shit here, just for the hell of it? From what I've read here, you seem much smarter than that.

Backing up, the thread was about a rape problem in this country. I concurred with that point.

I added that males are raped, too.

You and two others then objected.

In my opinion, those objections merely underscore my own point, that American culture discourages males from reporting and punishing rape against other males. To take that point a little further, in some respects, I think rape is even encouraged - for example, prison settings; many (here and elsewhere) will state "so-and-so bad guy better not drop the soap, haha".

[LisaLynne]

106. We objected that you said that men are raped more often than women.

And I totally agree about the way men being raped is portrayed, thought of, etc, but if you think men are raped more than women, you are going to have to have some stats on that because all the stats I have show a far different picture.

And more than two objected, so you may want to consider that. And suspected of what? Maybe of not looking at the facts.

[closeupready]

107. I said equally, and "maybe" more. Emphasis on maybe.

If citations as to 'fact' were required to participate here, how long would DU last?

As a reminder, this is a discussion board, not an echo chamber. I've been a member here for 8 years, and my transparency has never been publicly available.

My statements here stand, as is.

[LisaLynne]

112. You must be looking at a different DU than me ...

because people always want links.

So, you think because you've been here a while you can toss out any unsubstantiated claim and get a pass?

[closeupready]

117. I mean to put you on ignore earlier

with the others and missed your name somehow. I saw some follow up that suggested you wanted a discussion. I can see now my initial impulse was correct. So I'm putting you on ignore now, and wishing you all the best.

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

120. There are more left handed than right handed people in the world. So there. Feel free

to believe otherwise. And where do you get the nerve to ask people to back up their assertions. See how easy it is?

[LisaLynne]

124. Why didn't I think of that before!

Man, I'm stupid, what with paying attention to "facts".

BTW, I'm familiar with the double facepalm, but this is the first time I've seen the triple!

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

126. If there was a quadruple with Capt. Kirk having traveled through time to

join these three. Trust me I would've used that instead. It would be more than appropriate.

[LisaLynne]

130. LOL, yes.

I feel an urge to open up Photoshop ...

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

132. Ha! I almost added that to my earlier reply :-p

[MynameisBlarney]

119. LOL Fine.

As does our ridicule of your statements.

[cali]

85. yes, women are raped by their husbands in the US

duh. I didn't specify country.

I'm so glad you're done here.

[closeupready]

93. lol - you. funny.

[raccoon]

171. "I don't think you have a point, other than to pick a fight"--pot's calling the kettle black. nt

[LanternWaste]

133. Your premise appears to be based on..

Your premise appears to be based on the logical fallacy of post hoc ergo prompter hoc.

[closeupready]

135. Maybe so.

[MynameisBlarney]

42. Wait...wut?

Next thing you're gonna tell me, is that the white man is the most discriminated against minority.

[closeupready]

49. Plonking all three of you.

Not sure what the three of you are on about, but don't care.

My point stands.

[Bradical79]

56. It's not that hard to figure out.

You made a claim that sounds ridiculous to a lot of people without backing it up.

[closeupready]

67. Okay. I stand by the claim.

I get that you and the others here disapprove of independent thought.

Anything else?

[MynameisBlarney]

79. Yes

Don't get butt hurt if you make a ridiculous claim, making no effort to back it up, then get called out for it.

Now...about that ridiculous claim of yours.
Got any evidence to back it up?

[Helen Reddy]

86. "Independent thought"

does NOT translate into reality or fact.

And NO, I will not do the research for you. A plethora of viable statistics are easily available to defang your "independent thought" analysis.

[gollygee]

103. It isn't independent thought

Without any evidence, it's wild speculation.

[closeupready]

105. You're entitled to believe that.

Cheers.

[LanternWaste]

137. You can of course then, provide us with the specific and relevant difference between

You can of course then, provide us with the specific and relevant difference between "independent claim" and "speculation" in this particular case, and why you imagine it to be one and not the other, yes...?

[closeupready]

138. done with you.

Thanks.

[MynameisBlarney]

57. I see.

And what point would that be, exactly?
Only thing I saw from you was a ridiculous claim and nothing to back it up.

[LanternWaste]

136. Rather an unfounded, ungrounded, baseless, conjecture without supporting evidence than an actual poi

"My point stands..."

Rather an unfounded, ungrounded, baseless, conjecture without supporting evidence than an actual point. You do see the difference, yes?

[Bradical79]

52. What makes you think that?

Among children, sure, I could see that. But when I think of adults, I have a hard time believing that's accurate. Would you care to enlighten us?

[closeupready]

60. "Us" who?

?? Why so antagonistic? I'm a liberal, too.

[bloom]

164. closeupready -> Men who minimize rape (against women) are part of the problem. Iow -> you.

Must be wearing male victim blinders or something. Don't see / don't want to see the institutional patriarchal sexism in our culture and in all of the other cultures based on male gods / male power.

[closeupready]

167. I really do find myself

Asking if I am changing or why I lately can't stand this board any longer. I don't think you are commenting to be mean or spiteful, but I do feel like stepping away for a good period of time.

[PeaceNikki]

28. wtf?

[Taverner]

36. WTF indeed!

This thread is not man bashing in the least

[freshwest]

160. Dittohead. He's gone now.

[Spider Jerusalem]

29. Clearly George Carlin had the right idea

"fence off some of those square states out West; put the rapists in Utah, the gun nuts in Wyoming, and the drug addicts in Colorado...and open the gates for 48 hours once a year and put it on pay-per-view TV"

[arthritisR_US]

37. Oh how I miss him!

[libodem]

38. We have a violence culture

A gun culture and a might makes right culture. Rape is not about sex but about violence dominance and control. It is about whomever's got the most power pushing the weaker down and taking what they want.

[patrice]

47. Which violence authentically strong males don't find necessary most of the time. Yet in our

culture it's more or less "necessary" ALL of the time, from which we might infer that men in our culture are not authentically strong. Mistaken or otherwise, they feel weak and infantilized and their reaction to that is to negate it with violence.

Q. So, what is making American males, on the average, to feel weak and vulnerable? A. Violence is at least one important factor. We have a circular thing going on here that justifies itself by itself and solves nothing. It's self-sustaining.

[libodem]

66. Right

Authenticly strong doesn't need to prove anything. It is a real act of cowardice to prey on women or children or trans females. (I consider them women, too).

[patrice]

68. I can only guess the horrors that trans-females endure. I do happen to know a few

trans-males and, though I don't want to over-simplify their situations, it appears that their social problems are more manageable.

[libodem]

113. well both really

I suppose. All have a most difficult path as it is. All should be especially protected from perpetuation of hate crimes. In a way, rape of any kind but especially violent, rape, should be a hate crime. It is perpetrated on the weaker of society. Often women, trans men and women and children, are the victims.

[crazyjoe]

40. your right, we need a law....oh wait..

rape is against the law, is considered a violent crime, and is punished harshly. Also, in most cases, the woman's word is all that is necessary in order to convict.
The big problem, i would say the biggest problem, is false accusations. Perfect example is that dancer that accused the lacrosse team of rape, and those poor bastards were tried and convicted in the court of public opinion, even by many right here at DU.
Thank god she was proven to by a f*in lying *****. Those guys could of ended up in prison, and their lives ruined. That woman did irreparable harm to other woman who are truly raped, and that's just one example, there are many more. Innocent men have spent years in prison due to false accusations. So we need to heir on the side of caution.
So, how do you know in some cases where there are on witnesses or evidence, or if it was consensual ?
That, in my humble opinion, is the problem.

[Taverner]

43. Both cases cite a distinct lack of empathy

Both on the false accuser in the Lacrosse Case

And on the part of the "Rape Squad"

[cali]

46. to buy into crazy joe's crazy post

you actually have to believe that there are more false accusations of rape than actual rape.

[crazyjoe]

80. I said no such thing. Please keep the comments to what i actually say.

[MynameisBlarney]

88. To be fair Joe

You did kinda make it sound like that is the case.

[cali]

90. so what do you mean by your claim that false accusations of rape are a bigger

problem than rape itself? do tell.

[Taverner]

96. There's a lot of BS there

There's a lot of BS there

But I'd rather promote empathy than chase trolls

I've done too much of that lately

[cali]

45. no, a woman's word is not all that is necessary to convict in most cases.

And the false accusations of rape are certainly not the biggest problem. that is a sick, sick response. You are saying that women blithely run around falsely accusing men of rape. Most certainly do not.

As the victim of sexual assault, your post make me ill. literally.

YOU and people like you are a significant part of the problem.

[davidn3600]

71. It's not just about false accusations

It is wrongful identification as well.

Like what happened in this case. A rape victim identified this man as the rapist even though she was blindfolded during the attack. The jury believed the woman completely and he went to jail for 17 years for a crime he didnt commit. The real rapist meanwhile is still free.
http://www.cnn.com/2012/03/25/justice/wrongful-conviction-payments/index.html?hpt=hp_c1

[cali]

74. yes, misidentification is a problem- and not just in rape cases.

that has nothing to do with my point, which is that the poster is claiming that more false accusations of rape occur than rapes. He pointed out that the false accusation of rape can ruin a life. I wouldn't argue that, but rape ruins far more lives.

That poster hates women. that is clear and he is strong evidence of the cultural problem itself.

[crazyjoe]

87. Ok, you crossed the line. I do not hate woman, I have 2 beautiful daughters,

and a terrific wife. If anyone ever harmed them in any way they would pay dearly. You are obviously nuts and I am done responding to your wild accusations.

[cali]

91. anyone who claims as YOU did that false accusations of rape

are a greater problem than rape itself, clearly believes that huge numbers of women are running around falsely accusing men of rape. and that says a great deal about what you think of women.

[closeupready]

104. No it doesn't. You, again, are picking a fight here,

for whatever reason, your own aggrandizement or narcissism or whatever. You take one claim, and take it to an extreme, and it's really tired.

[cali]

108. no. I'm not picking a fight. I'm horrified by your claim

that false accusations of rape are a bigger problem than rape itself.

[bettyellen]

118. If anyone harmed them, it's much less likely that they would inform you because they are probably

aware you'd try to make someone "pay dearly" and make things worse, instead of better. It's major reason women do not report the most common "acquaintance" type rape - the social fallout (including having men they care about drawn into violence) as well as people not believing that their accusations are true. You fail society on both counts.

Unfortunately for your wife and daughter, opinions like yours are part of the reason rapists get away with this shit.

[LanternWaste]

139. I'd make up stuff to better hide any misogynist I made have also.

" I do not hate woman, I have 2 beautiful daughters..."


I'd make up stuff to better hide any misogynist I made have also.

Not that you're making stuff up or anything-- I'm certain you may even believe it yourself...

[crazyjoe]

77. just because you don't like it, doesn't make it not true,it took me 10 seconds to find this example.

http://www.suntimes.com/news/mitchell/14561314-452/conviction-but-no-tangible-evidence.html


from the article:

But given the hundreds of people who have been released from prison because they were wrongfully convicted, it is surprising that a prosecutor pursued these allegations without any evidence.

After all, an estimated 891 people have had their cases overturned because of they were wrongfully convicted nationwide, according to the National Registry of Exonerations.

What Darrell’s conviction shows is that despite this disturbing trend, a person like Darrell Williams can easily be convicted of sex-related crimes without a shred of tangible evidence.

[cali]

82. I'm sorry, but that most certainly does NOT provide credible evidence

to your sick claim that more women make false accusations of rape than are actually raped. and yes, when you claim that false accusations of rape are a bigger problem than rape that is exactly what you are saying.

Furthermore, crazy joe, you note that false accusations can ruin lives. I wouldn't challenge that, but what the fuck do you think rape does, genius?

[ReRe]

147. Agree...

I dare say there are no rape cases that stand up in court just on the woman's (or man's) word. But with our lousy judicial system these days, one might have squeaked thru. Like if it was David Koch's wife, where all the evidence could be cooked up for a hefty price. And if a woman/man cries rape and there's no evidence to back it up that will stand up in court, they deserve to be held accountable for making the accusation to begin with.

[bettyellen]

69. MRA bullshit --> " in most cases, the woman's word is all that is necessary in order to convict."

If that was true, a larger percentage of rapes would be reported. As it is, women know how fucking hard it is and don't opt to put themselves through the nightmare.

[crazyjoe]

78. see my response to #45

[bettyellen]

83. see post #87.

[gollygee]

110. This is sick

False accusations are a bigger problem? What I've read is that the rate of false accusations for rape is the same as for other crimes, and when people are falsely accused of murder or child molestation or a number of other things, their lives are also ruined.

I can't believe you feel that false accusations specifically of rape are a bigger problem than rape, when so many people (women, men, and children) are raped in the US, and in the world. It's a really huge problem.

[DisgustipatedinCA]

156. The biggest problem is certainly NOT false accusations

False accusations are the biggest problem in the world, if you're the one being falsely accused. But your assertion falls apart under scrutiny. A quick search tells me that nearly 20% of women in the US have been raped. I have no idea how accurate that number is, but any argument to one side or another still means a hell of a lot of women have been raped.

Have 20% of US males been falsely accused of rape? If yes, there should be roughly 30 million false rape accusations out there. I don't think I need to write a concluding sentence here.

[Tsiyu]

165. Yes, that does appear to be the "biggest problem" for some

I suspect that for others, being drugged against your will, dragged to three different parties, raped, sodomized, pissed on, written on and having pictures of your rape, and video of the possible rapists further humiliating you, having those sudents who call themselves the Rape Crew continue to mock and humiliate you for months - well, all that might be slightly more of a problem than "false accusations."

But the prosecutor in that town - whose home was one place used for the torture of this young woman - didn't appear to be too worried about false accusations, did she? She counseled the victim and her family to drop it because THE VICTIM WOULD BE RUN THROUGH THE MILL DURING THE TRIAL. Not because of the problem of false allegations.

In fact, most PEOPLE will not report rape because they will be made to be the guilty party by both the courts and by society. Most rape vctims bear all the pain and all of the guilt, and their attackers go on and rape some more, because society doesn't want to get involved, doesn't want to hear about penises being used as weapons.

The perpetrators SURELY weren't concerned with false accusations, were they? Not a problem for the Rape Crew.

In fact, they felt so sure of their ability to gang rape a 15-year-old with impunity, they posted pictures of themselves doing so! They tweeted their delight as they admitted the girl was being raped by their freinds! They made a video bragging about it, they were SO CONCERNED with FALSE ALLEGATIONS.

Biggest problem to me? Those who enable rapists by whatever means necessary.....

[morningfog]

166. "...the biggest problem, is false accusations. "

Wow. That is not a humble opinion. You are "heiring" on exactly the wrong side.

[bigtree]

48. essential article

Sarah Arnold ‏@SarahArnold8

Essential article, @JessicaValenti on America's rape problem: http://www.thenation.com/blog/172024/americas-rape-problem-we-refuse-admit-there-one …

[Egalitarian Thug]

97. +1 and thanks for putting this up. n/t

[patrice]

53. Men need to talk about what authentic male strength is & how it differs from bullying & violence. nt

[leftstreet]

75. While they're doing that, women need to learn kickboxing n/t

[patrice]

99. Kickboxing is THE BEST!!

I used to have a really good instructor, would leave those sessions higher than a kite on endorphins and good music.

[KittyWampus]

73. We have a violence problem. It's all related. It's time humans evolved a bit more.

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

114. This thread has brought out 2 of the worst posts I've read on this subject and the 2 idiots

writing these should be ashamed.

[LisaLynne]

121. But I got my first ignore from this thread!

I was sort of feeling left out because no one had ever ignored me before.

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

123. I've never used that feature before. But goddamn if said posts are any indication.

I may have to start.

[Scootaloo]

129. Yup, threads regarding rape tend to break out the troglodytes

More so than threads about Islam, in fact.

Usually their posts get passed by juries, owing to the "that's just like his OPINION, man!" attitudes.

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

131. "that's just like his OPINION, man!" That's my "favorite" response to an alert. Yeah no

shit it's their opinion. It still doesn't change the fact that it's a stupid right wing knuckle dragging opinion.

[patrice]

153. And no one ever gets to the extension of that: So, why doesn't "just like MY OPINION" carry the same

weight as his, in which case, they both cancel each other out, so what ARE we doing? It's a null set. What's. the. point? if opinion is enough, why bother . . . ?

.....................................

FACTS matter.

[riderinthestorm]

157. +1. The jury system has always been a flawed version of the DU popularity contest in best of times

combine it with a rape thread and its a mess.

[freshwest]

161. i noticed that.

[Warren DeMontague]

144. Everyone in that town who had any awareness of that incident & didnt try to stop it

Needs to go to jail.

Anyone who tried to cover it up - needs to go to jail.

If the prosecuting attorney- who is the mother of one of the alleged "rape crew"- tried to downplay the crime or talk the victim out of pressing charges, she needs to be fired and prosecuted herself.

[Taverner]

151. Yes and yes nt

[No Compromise]

148. this just happened in a town in Alaska, evidence on video, police/adults looked the other way

Football players Caught on Video Raping a Drunken Teenage Boy with a Beer Bottle
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022132583

[Taverner]

150. Fuck all, let's make this public

No more Penn States!

No more Penn States!

No more Penn States!

No more Penn States!

[Gregorian]

162. We have a child abuse problem.

That is where the other problems come from. And many more. The gun problem. The authoritarian politician problem. The war problem.