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[Nye Bevan]

This message was self-deleted by its author (Nye Bevan) on Sat Jan 5, 2013, 07:26 PM. When the original post in a discussion thread is self-deleted, the entire discussion thread is automatically locked so new replies cannot be posted.

[Tempest]

1. Blaming the victim. Classy.

Remember that the next time a woman is at a bar and given a date rape drug without her knowledge.

And FUCK NO I don't agree with you.

[PeaceNikki]

3. I believe it's a rebuttal to this thread:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022131082#post19

[Nye Bevan]

5. No, that's a great thread. Nothing there to "rebut". (nt)

[Tempest]

9. You'll have to explain the connection

Because I see him blaming the victim.

[PeaceNikki]

51. The OP posted a very sarcastic reply in there and I even used the term 'vicitm blame' in reply to it

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022131082#post19


So, I see one whether or not they admit. Seems oddly timed if it were not.

[slackmaster]

4. I'm male. My dad taught ME to stay out of risky situations, and to intervene when I saw...

...someone who was at risk.

[Nye Bevan]

6. You don't agree with me?

So I shouldn't tell my daughters to watch out for the slightly creepy guy who insists on refilling their drink himself, while they are not looking?

(I am assuming that this is the part of my post that "fuck no, you don't agree with" as opposed to the "no means no and drunkeness is not consent" part).

[slackmaster]

8. Apparently some people think that teaching girls to take care of themselves is "blaming the victim"

[Tempest]

11. Once again, that's not what she posted.

And once again, most rapes are done by someone the victim knows.

[seabeyond]

41. do you GET what you are saying. be afraid girls... all the time. be paranoid girls, all the time.

be aware girls, all the time.

then, we listen to men on DU tell us that we should TRUST a strange man on the street and not think he possibly can rape her.

wow. create a pretzel for a woman to live, in order to protect herself in rape and say NOTHING to men. the rapists...

[KitSileya]

69. Yeah, just watch the MRA guys go batshit insane whenever we bring up Schrødinger's rapist.

Any woman can't win for losing in this world.

[seabeyond]

73. dont have bruises and broken bones? not raped. consent. really. nt

[duffyduff]

95. You have to be afraid unless you have some man there to take you everywhere

I absolutely DETEST that shit, always have.

[dsc]

97. as a gay man I have to say

I keep my drink with me at all times if I am in a gay bar. I do that for two reasons. One, I don't drink alcohol and thus want to be sure I don't wind up drinking an alcoholic drink on accident. Two, I know that some guys fuck with drinks in bars so they can victimize the drinker. I don't think it is blaming the victim to give women similar advice for similar reasons.

[Tempest]

58. Wary of people they know?

It seems the NRA meme has permeated into the rape discussion.

[slackmaster]

60. What the blue fuck does the NRA have to do with taking reasonable precautions with everyone?

Do you have NRA on the brain or something?

Sheesh, this isn't even a fucking "gun" thread.

[Tempest]

81. The NRA: Be afraid of everyone. Get a gun to protect yourself. n/t

[Tempest]

10. THAT IS NOT WHAT YOU POSTED

"Young adults also need to be taught not to unnecessarily place themselves in risky situations"

What about a woman at a bar? Is that a risky situation?

And most rapes are perpetrated by SOMEONE THE VICTIM KNOWS!

Jeesh.

[slackmaster]

15. Are you suggesting that women should not bother practicing situational awareness?

Or that it's perfectly reasonable for a woman to go out alone to an unfamiliar place, or to not watch how much they drink? Or not to be on the alert for the possibility that a man they know could be a potential "date" rapist?

What about a woman at a bar? Is that a risky situation?

It certainly can be, depending on the location of the bar, the kind of crowd, the time of day, and other factors.

I'm a man, and there are bars I won't go to.

[seabeyond]

21. a woman was at a concert. a man walked up behind her and stuck hand up her skirt. courts blamed her

for putting herself in a bad situation. she should have known the possibilities of being at a concert.

thank you for reinforces the courts attitudes.

[slackmaster]

24. False equivalence. A bad court decision isn't a true measure of who is at fault.

Courts don't always get it right.

[seabeyond]

38. no. it is not false. but does not meet YOUR argument. cause you are wrong. it perfectly

illustrates people attitude not putting oneself at risk, does not solve the issue.

the judge, another man, decided she put herself at risk KNOWINGLY by going to a fuckin concert.

[slackmaster]

42. The judge is a fucking idiot

One lawyer in three graduated in the bottom third of his or her law school class.

One of the biggest dumbshits from my high school class is now a trial judge in the San Diego Superior Court. Those of us who remember him as a teenager have a hard time believing he passed the LSAT, but there he is on the bench.

[seabeyond]

45. it is not the POINT, about the judge being an idiot. it is the same thing you men are

suggesting. one can say that you too are being idiots placing ALL the responsibilities on the girls to protect themselves from rapes.

that is the point

[slackmaster]

48. Uh-oh, now I am a member of the infamous hated group called "you men"

[seabeyond]

57. geeezus, just stop. you are wrong. you refuse to listen to women. now you do the BS man hater

crap.

yet, want to be taken seriously.

this is a game. and when discussing rape of our girls, i do not find games fun or funny. so laugh your ass off all you want.

[slackmaster]

63. This thread is about rape PREVENTION

Not rape.

[PeaceNikki]

68. No, it's risk reduction. Not prevention.

http://www.rhrealitycheck.org/blog/2008/06/02/jackson-katz-violence-against-women-is-a-mens-issue


Another reason why Katz has a problem with people using women's issues to describe violence against women is the issue of perpetration and who is responsible for perpetrating these acts. "Take rape for example," said Katz. "Over 99 percent of rape is perpetrated by men, but it's a women's issue?"

Kats said one underlying problem is that college campuses tend to focus on the prevention of rape and sexual violence. "But the term prevention in not really prevention; rather, it's risk reduction," Katz said. "These programs focus on how women can reduce their chances of being sexually assaulted. I agree that women benefit from these education programs, but let us not mistake this for prevention."

"If a woman has done everything in her power to reduce her risk, then a man who has the proclivity for abuse or need for power will just move on to another woman or target," Katz added. "It's about the guy and his need to assert his power. And it's not just individual men, it's a cultural problem. Our culture is producing violent men, and violence against women has become institutionalized. We need to take a step back and examine the institutionalized polices drafted by men that perpetuate the problem.

[seabeyond]

74. yes. i really resented the hell out of prevention, but obviously this poster refuses to listen and

understand.

prevention. fuck that mentality

they do not even kinda get why that would be so fuckin offensive.

[PeaceNikki]

84. The poster fails to see the difference and that we are sick to DEATH of the 'confusion'

This is NOT prevention, it's risk reduction and it's important to know the difference.

http://www.pimall.com/nais/rapepreventiontips.html
http://littlerock.about.com/cs/moreresources/a/rape.htm

http://www.washingtoncitypaper.com/blogs/sexist/2009/08/10/rape-prevention-tips-stay-inside-or-die-a-horrible-death/

Targeting rape prevention advice at women can start off as empowering, and slowly descend into crippling—or worse, preemptive victim blaming.

Risk reduction is important, but it should not be confused with prevention. It's a cultural problem. Our culture is producing violent men, and violence against women has become institutionalized. We need to take a step back and examine the institutionalized polices drafted by men that perpetuate the problem.

[TorchTheWitch]

70. that judge was a woman

Which made her statement even more appauling.

[Nye Bevan]

40. That court was wrong and stupid (nt)

[seabeyond]

43. but that is the problem with shifting blame. you feel the girl should have been aware,

a young, inexperienced girl in life, should have been aware and not allowed herself to be drugged with what she thought was a double date.

you dismissed her experience putting it on her shoulder, regardless how you come back to.... rape is wrong.

[Nye Bevan]

18. A bar is not usually a risky situation, but it can be.

If my daughter walked into a bar that turned out to be full of drunken, rowdy football players with very few other women there, I would want her to turn around and walk out.

If she walked into a bar that contained a few members of the chess club sipping white wine, then that's fine.

Common sense, no?

[seabeyond]

23. how about a company christmas party? the girl really should have known with all her co workers

the risk she took.

this is the problem here.

[Nye Bevan]

44. Depends on the coworkers.

If it's a bunch of leering creepy guys who tend to make inappropriate comments, it may well be best to avoid a place where they will be getting drunk.

But if it's a pleasant workplace with normal, respectable people, should be no problem.

[seabeyond]

46. you would be wrong. this girl should have been aware. she was raped. nation wide company.

normal every day law abiding people.

first drink.

raped.

[duffyduff]

96. A woman who is alone for any reason is in a "risky situation" and therefore

is "asking for it" if she gets raped, murdered, or assaulted.

I have despised that attitude all my life. It's saying women are worthless human beings who should have no freedom at all to do what they want, where they want, when they want without some goddamned man around to "protect" them.

It is BULLSHIT. Men have no right to infringe on my freedom. Period.

[abelenkpe]

12. You should teach them to fill their own drinks

And never accept any from a stranger. I was given a drink with the date rape drug in it from a bartender at a bar. (in LA at el coyote) Luckily I passed out and was taken home by my girlfriends and not by our friendly bartender as was his plan. Hell, tell your daughters to never go to bars too.

And for the record that stuff makes you a lump unable to respond but you can remember.

[Nye Bevan]

22. As a father of daughters, that stuff scares the hell out of me. Thanks for sharing.

But apparently (according to some) warning my daughters about this stuff means that I am "blaming the victim".

[abelenkpe]

34. Don't worry it's society we need to change

You're right to look for ways to protect your kids.

[rainin]

13. Why is learning to be wary the same as blaming the victim?

Crazy logic, Tempest. Tempest, you have a chip on your shoulder. The screen name fits. For the rest of us, it makes sense to warn our daughters to be careful. BTW, I also tell my sons to watch our for girls who look drunk. Stay close to them, don't let someone take them off into a room alone. Make sure they have another girl who will watch over them (sister or friend). Get them home, call an adult, keep them safe. They might look drunk, but they could be drugged. You can't tell. Just don't let them out of your sight until you know they are safe.

[Tempest]

30. Christ, I can't believe I have to explain this again

The vast majority of rapes occur by someone the victim knows.

Are you suggesting a woman should be taught to fear and distrust everyone?

[slackmaster]

39. Maybe you are finding yourself trying to explain yourself again because you are wrong

Please consider it.

Are you suggesting a woman should be taught to fear and distrust everyone?

Women should be taught to take reasonable precautions with everyone.

[Tempest]

49. That's is nothing more than a variation of what the NRA says

Danger is everywhere, arm yourself.

Fuck that.

[slackmaster]

50. You're just wrong about my attitude and about the OP

So very, very wrong.

[Tempest]

64. And yet on more than one post here you mimick the NRA's meme.

Go figure.

[slackmaster]

67. That's beyond ridiculous

Good day.

[seabeyond]

32. it is the comment that a victim should not put herself in a risky position. a bar, concert, trusted

persons home, company christmas party.

are these risky positions? yet, she is being lectured to avoid rape, do not put yourself in risky position.

you do not see how that is not directing responsibility toward the girl?

i educate my niece. sheeeeit, my sons to be aware of their environment.

but to suggest, that avoiding risky positions will allow a girl to not be raped is bullshit. uninformed. uneducated on the subject....

and really tired of men not knowing what the fuck they are talking about, tell me how to avoid rape. men, that refuse to even listen to women when we actually try to educate them. then proceed to ignore, and lecture.

[Tempest]

53. THANK YOU!

More than 70% of rapes are by someone the victim knows.

You can't prepare for something like that without distrusting and being suspicious of every single male they know. And that's not healthy for someone's mental well being.

[slackmaster]

2. YES! My dad taught me exactly that when I was 16.

I remember him saying the words "No means no."

[pnwmom]

7. No absolutely means no. But the issue I can't easily figure out

is when both partners are drunk and nobody says no.

If a man has sex with a drunk woman, it's rape. If a woman has sex with a drunk man it's rape.

But if they're both drunk, they're both rapists? Or they're both victims? Or what?

[rainin]

14. They are both stupid. n/t

[snot]

28. My favorite definition of abuse focusses on whether there's an imbalance of power.

And an imbalance of power clearly exists where one person has greater knowledge, awareness, or mental capacity.

Such greater capacity can exist, e.g.,

on the part of an adult vis a vis a child;

on the part of one who has greater knowledge of the situation; e.g., on the part of one who knows a stock is about to take off based on inside information, vis a vis a pension fund that's considering selling the stock and lacks such knowledge;

on the part of a "normal" person vis a vis one that has impaired mental capacity due to Alzheimer's or other mental impairment;

on the part of someone who's a lot less drunk or drugged than the person they're trying to have sex with.;

etc.

If both partners in a sex act are equally impaired, I'd say there's no imbalance; so although the act may be regrettable or even illegal on both sides, what happened wouldn't qualify, for me, as abuse.

[seabeyond]

16. university in our area does something interesting. the upper classes go to the parties, stay sober

and watch for girls that are over the top, watch for boys going for those girls, and escort the girls home. it is a whole tier of students that feel responsible for providing safety for the girls when they do drink.

one of the things that came out, was my discussion with sons on date rape, and at any party, keep an eye out for a girl that behaves drugged and HELP her.

[Nye Bevan]

26. I LOVE that idea (nt)

[seabeyond]

54. yes. it is easy enough to implement. and is effective. it is a village mentality. and good for

all. makes an environment of responsibilities and an awareness of rape without blaming the girl. without telling her, she should not drink. without suggesting she is on her own, if she did not watch her drink close enough, or trusted someone.

that would be the different approach and solutions that differ from you and others argument on the thread.

no one is mad at you and others. but, this would be the difference, that we are trying to point out. for awareness.

[leftstreet]

17. What constitutes a 'risky situation?' n/t

[abelenkpe]

25. Good question

Wasn't the girl in CA who was raped by her "friends" only guilty of drinking a soda drugged with a date rape drug wearing sweatpants. Hardly what one would expect to be a risky situation.

Happened a few years ago. Same deal where the father of one of the boys was a sheriff. Orange county I think....

[KitSileya]

66. Yes, here in Norway,

a 19-year old one evening rang the doorbell of his neighbor. A very risky situation, right? At least for the woman who answered, a 98-year old who had seen this boy grow from diapers. She saw it was him, opened the door, was raped, and murdered. If only she had learned never to open her door.

[abelenkpe]

82. That's messed up

Shows how much we need to change society. Still should teach kids to try and avoid stuff, to protect others and report crimes they witness, but the larger issue is changing society so we don't put the responsibility on the victim. We have a long long way to go.

[abelenkpe]

19. Probably ought to teach them it's not ok to drug someone

And never ok to take advantage of someone in need. And never turn a blind eye. Always help those in need.

[KitSileya]

20. Risky situations?

You mean, like playing across the road from your home as a 10 year-old? (Which is what happened when I was raped.) Or up the street to the library (which is where I encountered a flasher as a 13-year old?) Or going to school every day (which is where I was harassed by 2 boys in my 8-grade class that convinced themselves they "were in love with me" and the teachers thought it was cute?)

Most rapes are committed by someone the woman knows, and even trust. So to take what you're saying to its utmost conclusion, you're saying that all children should be taught to avoid being alone with adult men, regardless of family ties, that all women should refuse to marry or live with a man, women should not join the armed forces, should hold to a curfew of not being out after dark, and should generally never socialize in mixed company? After all, that is placing themselves "in risky situations."

[yardwork]

29. I'm very sorry for what happened to you.

[KitSileya]

47. Thank you.

I don't talk about it much, and I had a break-down about it when I was in my early twenties, but I am doing alright. It has most certainly had an effect on my life - and if it hadn't happened, there's a good chance I would have tried to find someone to marry and have kids with, but it did happen, and so I've made the best out of the life I got.

It just makes me infuriatingly, incandescently angry when the onus of protecting themselves falls only on women. My colleagues think I am horrible square that I won't drink more than half a class of wine if we're at a party, but I cannot get myself to drink more because I am afraid of losing situational awareness. That boys can drink themselves dead drunk without this fear is so unfair! It is so unfair that women are the ones who are made to feel that they cannot go to a bar alone, or travel alone, or walk home from work after dark. All statistics show that men make up at least 90%, if not more, of all rapists. Why are not men collectively restrained in the daily lives? Why don't they have the curfew, the ban on partying, the restrictions? Arrggghh!

[leftstreet]

31. +1

Best response on this thread

[yardwork]

27. Would you agree that women should be taught to be wary of men they don't know?

[Nye Bevan]

36. I think anyone should be wary of anyone they don't know,

at least initially. And of course that's not to say that people shouldn't be wary of people they *do* know.

"The Gift of Fear" by Gavin deBecker is an excellent book that covers this kind of stuff.

[yardwork]

62. The reason I ask is that that question caused a flamewar on DU some months ago.

Some DUers who identify as male were very insulted and angry at the suggestion that women should ever have to be wary of strangers. I recall one thread about a woman rebuffing the unwanted sexual attention of a stranger, a male she encountered in public, and a number of DUers were very angry about it. They stated that it was bigoted for women to rebuff unwanted attention of males in public. We are supposed to smile and not be rude. It still makes me angry to remember this.

I recall an incident that occurred when I was about sixteen. I was walking to the store from my home, wearing jeans and a tunic-style top. Nothing I was wearing was revealing. (It's sad that I feel obligated to mention this but I do, given the tendency of people to assume that a woman who receives unwanted attention must have been dressed provocatively.) I was small for my age, a little skinny sixteen year old kid in jeans and a long loose top. As I walked down the public street I passed an apartment where a number of men were sitting on a deck. They started hooting and hollering and calling out to me. I ignored them. I did not say anything or look at them. I was scared and I kept on walking. Their hoots and hollers turned to jeers and then insults. They started yelling at me that I was a stuck up bitch, a .... (sorry, don't want to type what they called me). The tone of their words still upsets me. This happened almost 40 years ago and it still bothers me.

It's a very minor story comparatively speaking, but I still remember how upsetting it was to be treated that way by a group of grown men when I was sixteen. The same age as the female victim of the Rape Crew at Steubenville High.

And no, I never told my parents. I never told anybody until today.

[Nye Bevan]

71. I am very, very aware of the fear that women live with.

I never offer unsolicited help to a woman in a grocery parking lot, for example, as I understand that she has no idea what my true intentions are.

And I am in no way insulted if a woman alone does not come into an elevator with me late at night.

Again, I highly recommend the book "The Gift of Fear" which explains all of this stuff very well.

[yardwork]

80. Thanks. I hope that you will remember it and be supportive the next time this comes up on DU.

Right now it's very fashionable on DU to tell women that we're responsible for never leaving our drinks unattended, but in a few weeks when this Steubenville story is no longer in the news the pendulum will swing back and we'll be back to OPs complaining about women who unfairly paint "all men as rapists."

[seabeyond]

72. we are responsible for not being raped being paranoid/afraid of ALL men and we are not allowed to be

paranoid/fearful of any men.

men sure are setting us up for failure in avoiding and preventing our rape at every turn.

fuckin NOTHING has changed.

[yardwork]

78. You know it, seabeyond. And those of us who point it out are called all kinds of names on DU.

[Tempest]

56. They have more to fear from men they know.

More than 70% of rapes are by males the victim knows.

[yardwork]

76. See my post #62. There's been some inconsistency on this on DU.

One day all the women on DU are being told that we are rude and even bigoted to rebuff the unwanted attention of strange men. Another day we're being told that women who don't watch their drinks every second are to blame for being raped. Both admonitions are bullshit and part of the same old double standard. I'm tired of reading it on DU. There are plenty of right-wing sites where I can go read how every rape is the fault of the victim, either because she was "too naive and trusting" or because she was "too provocative and slutty."

FFS when will people figure out that the responsibility for rape lies with the rapists. I guess that would be taking on too much responsibility.

[HereSince1628]

35. Agree, they and younger people also need to be taught about the danger

of situational morality and disrespect for the dignity of others.

If asked individually by parents or in a civics classroom , I suspect the two assailants and the 'spectators' could provide all the appropriate answers.

The morality we know hardly matters if we don't live it.

[Tempest]

37. More than 70% of rapes are by someone the victim knows

Yes, your idea is sound, but how effective?

If a male who is a good friend hands you a drink are you going to be suspicious? Not likely.

That's the point I was trying to make. That and women shouldn't be taught to be suspicious of even their close male friends.

[brewens]

52. Never watch and let someone do what I did one time.

I literally packed a drunk woman out of a bar once. We were acquaintances and had been drinking and dancing. She told me the next day she was thinking about going home with me before she had those several too many.

I don't think she ever really passed out completely but she puked a few times and was totally helpless. Several people saw me pack her out, stuff her in my truck and drive off. I took her to my house and tossed her on the bed. I think I changed into some gym shorts to be comfortable but didn't even think of undressing her. Sex with a passed out girls isn't my thing. i suppose I took advantage of her in a way. I love to sleep with women. I snuggled up next to her and went to sleep.

She was a little surprised to wake up fully clothed. I dated her long enough to find out that she wouldn't always remember everything if she had a lot to drink, even if it was nowhere near like that first night I took her home.

These days in almost every state I'm pretty sure a bar isn't supposed to serve someone to that point. I'd think someone should stop a guy from dragging a girl like that outside for sure. Threaten to call the cops if that's what it takes. Make sure she has a safe ride home or to the hospital. In my case, something like that may have happened if we weren't both pretty well known at that bar.

[slackmaster]

55. Something very similar happened to me just before Christmas

I stopped a VERY drunk woman from driving home from a bar. I convinced her to give me her keys and allow me to drive her in her vehicle.

She made a sloppy attempt to get me to go into her home. I politely declined, and she acted insulted.

I've seen her three times since then, at the same bar. She's bought me a drink each time.

[etherealtruth]

59. What the hell is a risky situation?

If I go to a party have i entered into a risky situation? If I go shopping alone have I put myself into a risky situation?

My job requires that I conduct in depth investigations for commercial and industrial properties ... I am, more often than not, alone in strange cities and towns .... have I put myself in a risky situation?

Seriously, what situations are not risky for a woman alone? In some Islamic countries women are not permitted out unless they are accompanied by a male relative ... does that sufficiently lessen the risk?

[Tempest]

61. Apparently for some a risky situation is any where a male is in the vicinity. n/t

[etherealtruth]

65. It sure sounds that way n/t

[brewens]

75. It could also mean a guy taking home a girl that is really drunk. The odds may be

pretty long but what if a girl says yes and doesn't remember that in the morning? I'd call that a risky situation for the guy.

The unnecessarily putting yourself in a risky position can mean a lot of things. Not bad advice to give anyone if you're talking about something like drinking to the blackout stage.

[Nye Bevan]

77. It depends.

Party at a frat house with the football team which has an unsavory reputation = risky.

Grandma's 90th birthday party = not risky.

Aha, some DUers are saying now. What if your creepy uncle rapes you in the restroom during Grandma's birthday party? Doesn't that possibility prove you wrong?

And I would say no, nobody can ever reduce their risk to zero. But they can stack the odds in their favor.

[etherealtruth]

85. My job requires me (very often) to be in vacant and abandoned buildings and properties

or conversely, I may find myself in industrial sites with largely male employees

More often than not alone ... I am carrying gear and dressed for optimum mobility (in order to climb reach etc)

By performing the duties of my job, i am most assuredly, putting myself into risky situations ... do I "chuck" my degree and work as a babysitter (probably low risk) ... my ability to support my family will be greatly diminished (actually destroyed) ... but I most assuredly will be viewed by "others" as not putting myself in a risky situation.


My Field has long been dominated by men (actually changing now) ... networking often occurs outside of work at bars etc ... if I engage in these activities (as the men do) am I putting myself at risk? Should I simply take myself out of the networking loop?

[Nye Bevan]

87. Only you can answer those questions.

Just like I can talk to my daughters, but ultimately they will be the ones to make the decision whether to go into a particular bar or attend a certain party.

[PeaceNikki]

88. And, to clarify, you're encouraging risk reduction, not suggesting it would be her fault

if she made a decision and someone raped her... right?

I believe that's what you believe, but given the above kerfuffle, I think it's always important to discuss that. Even if she makes a choice that someone else might not have made, it's never ever her FAULT if she is drugged and/or sexually assaulted and she should never be made as though she bears any brunt of the blame or responsibility for it.

[Nye Bevan]

90. YES. It is NEVER the victim's fault. NEVER. (nt)

[PeaceNikki]

91. OK, I think that is what all of the controversy is about.

The very important distinction that it be taught AS risk reduction and not 'prevention'.

Acts of sexual assault and domestic violence are often discussed in terms of what the victim could or should have done differently. That, in fact, is victim blaming.

[Tempest]

79. And while you're teaching her to be fearful, make sure to let her know about PPD.

Paranoia Personality Disorder.

Paranoid personality disorder is a mental disorder characterized by paranoia and a pervasive, long-standing suspiciousness and generalized mistrust of others.

[Recursion]

83. Women and girls don't need to be reminded of the risks they face of sexual assault

The entire culture already victim-shames; there's no need to make more of it part of any larger response.

[Nye Bevan]

99. Is it OK with you if I warn my daughters about Rhohypnol?

Or should I keep my mouth shut to avoid being accused of "victim shaming"?

[MotherPetrie]

86. Whoa... had to doublecheck to make sure I wasn't accidentally at Freeperville

[Nye Bevan]

89. Yep, "no means no" and warning my daughters about date-rape drugs is dangerously right-wing stuff.

At this very minute the powers that be are probably deciding whether to PPR me. My fault for posting such controversial material.

[MotherPetrie]

92. How very disingenuous of you

You didn't specify "daughters" - you specified "young adults." That was clearly a very deliberate choice of language.

So the rest of your responses in this thread speak for themselves.

[pnwmom]

94. I also have no idea what you're getting at.

Both young men and young women need to be taught that no means no and that drunk people can't give consent.

[leftstreet]

98. Now it's your 'daughters' and 'date-rape drugs?'

Your OP fixed the responsibility for rape avoidance on women. That does sound like blaming the victims. Whether or not you meant to sound that way, who knows.

Hopefully this thread will cause you to reconsider your words. The majority of rape victims already knew their attackers, so unless you're suggesting women avoid employment, education, dating, marriage, family members, churches, having friends...well you can see how it sounds

[nenagh]

93. May be off topic... Googling Rohypnol (flunitrazepam)...

The presence of Rohypnol (flunitrazepam) can be detected by a urine test...for up to 60 hours after ingestion.

One suggestion is that if a person suspects they have been given Rohypnol, they can be tested in a Hospital Emergency room..

However, another suggestion was to involve the police in the Rohypnol testing, because of later legalities.

Thought I read that the poor girl involved in the Steubenville case, was told that it was too late to do drug testing.

Hope that is incorrect info.

I know my daughter came very close to being raped in University... but she got away from her "date" somehow.

As a Mother/ parent, I would want to know if a drug was involved....hoping to have a critical piece of information in order to stop the person from repeating the rape with other girl...

[mythology]

100. Apparently not

Situational awareness is apparently a rather controversial topic. But I think it's important to teach that. Obviously it won't avoid all crime (not just rape or other sexual assaults), but it can help reduce your odds of being the victim of a crime.

[Nye Bevan]

101. I think this discussion has run its course so I am closing it.

Here is what my OP said:

Young adults need to be taught that "no" means "no" and that drunkenness does not equal consent.
Young adults also need to be taught not to unnecessarily place themselves in risky situations, and to be aware of the existence of creeps with "date rape" drugs.

Despite a few DUers claiming that this is "blaming the victim", I still maintain that this is common-sense advice (as stated by Jurors 1 and 6 below), which I plan to share with my son and daughters.

Thanks to all for participating.


A randomly-selected Jury of DU members completed their review of this alert at Sat Jan 5, 2013, 06:15 PM, and voted 2-4 to LEAVE IT ALONE.

Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: Seems like common sense advice.
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: No explanation given
Juror #3 voted to HIDE IT and said: No explanation given
Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: No. No and no.
Juror #5 voted to HIDE IT and said: Blaming the victim
Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: I disagree with the alerting member. I think this is simply common sense and not blaming the victim at all. The alerting member needs to take a breath and chill out.

[Quantess]

102. I am not offended by this, at all. It's realistic.

Women DO have to watch out. But at the same time, you can never be 100% certain of what's going to happen.

I've never been sexually assaulted, which is something I attribute partly to being wary of certain people and certain situations, and partly to luck. But in the same breath, I am also fully supportive of people who have been sexually assaulted, and not judgmental at all. There is no way to prevent sexual harrassment, and I am here to tell everyone that. I know what it means to be regarded as nothing more than a sexual piece of meat, in terms of sexual harrassment goes.

In High School, I didn't go to those parties where girls got "sleep-bandited". I wasn't invited anyway, because I was too much of a cynical, depressed, angry, bookworm. I went to other weird and wild parties in high school, with edgy kids, but none of those guys were a rapist, at least none that I knew about. I've been to all kinds of crazy, fucked up parties in my life, ended up drunk. There have been plenty of creeps I have encountered, but I could tell they were creeps, and that's probably what saved my ass (no pun intended).

The only time I ever suspected the possibility of a date rape drug was when I was visiting the midwest, age 25, and was all by myself in a nightclub. Two random, obviously conservative, uncool guys who said they were in town for a convention sat down next to me, chatted me up in polite conversation and finally asked me where I was from. San Francisco (the city I lived in at that time). Oh... well... you could tell there was heavy judgment swirling around in their brains, about a young woman from SF, all by herself in some weird club in Chicago with some crappy techno music in the background, with pierced & dyed people flailing around in black pleather outfits, in the background. The conversation turned really annoying and stupid after that, and I excused myself to the ladies room.

When I came back, there was an unexpected pint of beer waiting for me. "No thanks!" I said politely. "I'm going home now", and I got out of there. I chased down the next bus I could find. Nobody will ever know if there was a date rape drug in that beer or not.