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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsBlame everything on mental illness. Blame me personally if you want.
Ever since Newtown, it seems to me half the threads on here touch on mental illness as a cause of the woes of society.
It would be unrealistic to deny that mental illness does play a role in some events, like the murders at Va Tech, Tucson, Aurora, Wisconsin, and Newtown. And apparently in the subway platform hate crime murder in NY.
But it's equally unrealistic to blame every woe on MH problems.
Gun crimes might be caused by MI, but be definition can't occur without available firearms.
Alex Jones may be a self-aggrandizing fraud. But I have heard no evidence that he has had a psychiatric evaluation which diagnosed a recocognized MI.
There was a MI element to the NY platform murder, but there was an equal element of a hate crime, bigotry of Arab Americans.
Prozac and other drugs which help millions are dismissed as dangerous, even poisonous, because they have the potential to cause serious side effects, including exacerbation of depression or psychosis, in a very small percentage of patients.
I personally find all of this very offensive. As a guy struggling to move past the shame, embarrassment, and stigma of my recent psychiatric breakdown and hospitalization, I would ask that DU members be more sensitive. This is, after all, a liberal left leaning forum, I would like to hope that as a group, we could be more sensitive, empathetic, and enlightened than our Freeper or conservative cave counterparts. I appeal to the better angels found within all if you.
But if not, tear into me. There is little anyone could do to me at this pooint that could hurt me more than I have already been hurt and traumatized by my personal experiences.
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Glaug-Eldare
(1,089 posts)This is a classic case of lazy minds trying to drive a steamroller over a people without a voice. I disagree on the gun issue, but it is appalling how many people would like to use human beings with medical conditions as a political prop, or a stepping stone, or an excuse to pursue unsavory ends. I look forward to the day when a psychiatric diagnosis is no more damning than diabetes or heart disease. The only place solutions can spring from is the left, since the right will fight to the death to prevent any public spending on improving mental health care, and the invisible hand of the free market doesn't give a damn about mental patients unless they happen to be trust fund babies. We have GOT to be united in supporting universal human dignity.
OneGrassRoot
(23,953 posts)
for your courage and honesty.
K&R
Lionessa
(3,894 posts)The point isn't as you suggest that mental illness is the woe of the world. It's that those with mental illness to the point of breakdowns, shouldn't be allowed to buy guns, not just no AR-47s, but no guns at all. The idea being that if someone's mental illness caused one breakdown, it could potentially cause another, as could the meds, and people who might have a breakdown, shouldn't have access to guns.
While no one is stigmatizing you or your recovery, I certain stand by the idea that you should never be allowed to own a gun.
Neoma
(10,039 posts)That's a laugh.
Lionessa
(3,894 posts)I've seen no one suggest that people with mental illness are a problem. I've seen concerns over meds seeming to both not work and be as bad as the disease. I've seen great worry over the availability of treatment for the mentally ill.
If you've seen some please provide links.
Neoma
(10,039 posts)Heck, AtypicalLiberal got banned for it.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1240&pid=192033
fizzgig
(24,146 posts)
Posteritatis
(18,807 posts)
Denninmi
(6,581 posts)You just did.
You don't know me personally, only whatever I have chosen to put out on DU. Nor do you know my complete medical history.
Show me the professional credentials after your name, and I might be more willing to consider your argument that I could "break down" and harm someone. MD? PhD? MSW? MA LLP? RN?
As far as right to purchase or obtain a ccw permit, I haven't come across anything in either state or federal law that says I can't at this point.
Posts like yours almost make me want to stop at Wal-mart, well, God no, not Wal-mart, maybe Dunhams, and pick one out. If it's "instant" I could take it home on the spot, right?
Why? Because I don't suffer intolerance well.
sibelian
(7,804 posts)"While no one is stigmatizing you or your recovery"...
:-/
Neoma
(10,039 posts)
Denninmi
(6,581 posts)I have also been known to viciously chop celery, onions, and carrots, as well as commit gruesome murders of clams, mussels, oysters, and lobsters.
Clearly a menace to society. But, they better round up Jacques Pepin, Marcus Samuelson, Andreas Vielstadts, and the entire hosting staff of The Chew.
Neoma
(10,039 posts)
musical_soul
(775 posts)911 attackers thought knives were useful as well.
Ban them.
fizzgig
(24,146 posts)Last edited Wed Jan 9, 2013, 01:39 AM - Edit history (1)
should they be allowed to buy guns. and how do you define a 'breakdown'? we all breakdown at some time or another.
and it's a load that you're not stigmatizing us.
Lionessa
(3,894 posts)I notice many on DU seem to think any evidence of any mental illness shouldn't be allowed to own guns, and still others think no one even without mental illness should own a gun.
My point isn't to draw the line, but to correct the OP's misunderstanding about the current discussions about mental illness regarding the current massacre. It isn't an attempt to demonize mental illness, but to say regulations need to restrict the gun ownership opportunities of those with mental illness. Not any kind of life demonization or anythiing requiring the extreme defensiveness displayed in the OP, just regarding mental illness and gun ownership which the OP never mentions. I guess if the OP was hoping to own a gun, then perhaps he/she would feel picked on, but he/she says nothing of the relevant qualifier (guns) in his/her pule.
fizzgig
(24,146 posts)there are a variety of reasons you may end up in the hospital, some related to long-term illnesses, others related to specific situations. there is still such a catch all that you can't use the same broad brush across the board.
someone who has a 'breakdown' that includs homicidal ideation is very different from some who has a 'breakdown' due to suicidal ideation or sudden trauma.
the only restriction should be if they're proven to be a threat to others.
as someone who has a mental illness, i understand the defensiveness of the op. we're hearing that we should have to be on some manner of government registry simply for being on medication. we're being told that all of us have potential for horrible violence. the very medications that make us well are demonized on the board.
when someone is drunk and accidentally shoots someone i don't hear clamoring to prevent anyone who ever drinks alcohol from owning guns. i certainly don't hear anything about taking guns away from men, who are much more likely to be perpetrators of gun violence.
i just wonder why the 'mentally ill' are the only focus in such conversations.
Lionessa
(3,894 posts)breakdowns are at risk for additional breakdowns which may take the form of violence against others or themselves, so yes. I guess I do in that pretty much everyone whose mass murdered has mental illness.
fizzgig
(24,146 posts)anyone is at risk for a breakdown. and unreasonable violence DOES NOT show mental illness, ALL violence is unreasonable excepting self-defense.
Glaug-Eldare
(1,089 posts)but this post does stigmatize treatment. For one thing, advocating a permanent ban means that, no matter how well your illness is managed, how effective a procedure is, how long you've gone without incident, you should never, EVER, be able to enjoy a civil right again. Until you die, you are less of a citizen than your neighbors. That's a big fear to conquer when you're trying to decide whether to spend huge amounts of money to have a stranger write down your most private experiences in a binder. Another problem is that the described symptoms don't indicate even a slight propensity toward violence. A "breakdown" sounds dangerous, but it could mean being so overcome with anxiety that you lock yourself in a bathroom and hide in the toilet stall. The entire reason for removing a person from firearms or other weapons is the likelihood of them perpetrating violence. Unfortunately, people (and I think you did here) read "threat" in many completely nonviolent symptoms and descriptions for mental illness. Due process demands that individuals be evaluated...individually. Any one-size-fits-all or permanent punishments create a fear of being lumped together and locked away if you seek treatment.
Denninmi
(6,581 posts)I will admit that my uncontrolled sobbing while driving, which came on suddenly, posed a theoretical danger. But I pulled off ASAP. I puked in a lot of parking lots.
Lionessa
(3,894 posts)should have un-scrutinized access to firearms. And yes, if one has been hospitalized for a breakdown, they should be forever restricted from gun ownership, imo.
it seems to be "OK" that army and police are controlled by psychopaths.
Denninmi
(6,581 posts)A "breakdown" could happen to anyone under the right stressors.
Like Green Day said in their song 'Restless Heart Syndrome' "Who are you to be so self-assured?"
If you don't think it could happen to a "normal" person, you are in serious denial.
get the red out
(14,031 posts)What about when you try to buy or rent a home, can someone ask the same? Not that guns would necessarily be needed but that it would be a nice way to weed out the bad seeds among the good people.
You wouldn't want someone like ME living next door, I might walk the dog before work or make spicy chili on the weekends; all kinds of frighteningly normal things anyone else might be caught doing in the neighborhood (but I'd be doing it "mentally ill", properly treated with those scary depression medications that inspire jucy conspiracy theories).
Denninmi
(6,581 posts)So much for HIPPA as a safeguard of privacy or dignity.
get the red out
(14,031 posts)That would be an oh so easy way to get around all that and get some good old fashioned open persecution started. Then see how many people who need treatment ever seek it out! (What a mess!)
Denninmi
(6,581 posts)So looking forward to that.
HereSince1628
(36,063 posts)Unless a regulatory change forces that term on the psychiatric industry searches of medical records for it will be useless.
You really should be ashamed of yourself.
Glaug-Eldare
(1,089 posts)To me, this is a chance to educate. Let's take it! 
Glaug-Eldare
(1,089 posts)[IMG]
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UnrepentantLiberal
(11,700 posts)Should you be allowed to own a gun?
Lionessa
(3,894 posts)That said, I would think that having a breakdown to the point of temporary hospitalization should be a line for gun ownership. I think some on DU think it should be anyone being treated in anyway for any mental illness, I do not agree with that. I have ptsd, but I've never been incapacitated or hospitalized for anything related to ptsd nor have I ever had a "breakdown," and I've owned a gun most of my adult life.
rustydog
(9,186 posts)I personally know a person who should never be allowed to purchase a gun.
He is bi-polar. when he is on his medication he is a very good person. he is able to tune out the voices that tell him to kill people around him.
There are times he can't tune the voices out (like when meds are changed) and he becomes extremely violent. Or when he feels better and decides to stop taking the medications and the voices take over again...He should never be allowed to walk into a store and purchase a gun, or go to a gun show and buy a gun, any gun. If I were to sell a firearm to him privately, I should be forced, by law, to report that sale to the county sheriff's office or FBI or local BATF.
I'm not disparaging people with psychological illnesses. It is pointing out a serious issue, but this is not the only issue in the gun control debate. It will NOT help drive the debate if people are allowed to distract the issue by hinting that it is a mental health issue and gun control to us "normal" Americans isn't needed.
Neoma
(10,039 posts)Yeah, I don't think so.
Denninmi
(6,581 posts)And many loopholes closed.
FWIW, the only "voices in my head" are when I crank up the Bluetooth headphones while working out my gym. I guess I could do worse than Rihanna, Snow Patrol, and the Irish and Korean rap I've been listening to the last couple of days.
Irish rap? Yeah, buddy.
JaneyVee
(19,877 posts)MOST people within the broad spectrum of mental illness are harmless, or more of a threat to themselves than to others. These mass shooters as well as others that use gun violence are beyond mental illness, they are sociopaths or psychopaths.
patricia92243
(12,975 posts)Denninmi
(6,581 posts)It seems like many can't differentiate between these different conditions, let alone understand the nuances between various DX. Too many paint with a broad brush, as if anorexia and schizoaffective disorders were basically the same thing.
Thanks for "getting it"
LeftofObama
(4,243 posts)You hit the nail on the head with that reply! I wish I could recommend your post. 
socialindependocrat
(1,372 posts)HereSince1628
(36,063 posts)90% of gun suicides are linked to a mental illness--most frequently the presence of depression, which is a symptom in many disorders.
Suicide far exceeds homicide, and suicides are mostly not about sociopathy.
defacto7
(14,162 posts)to recognize until something actually bad happens. Outside of that, they are the nice, church going, PTA member, community volunteer, people next door. Then they find the bodies in the basement.
I would never be concerned about someone who recognizes they need help with psychological issues. It's the sociopath who can lie so perfectly no one would know they were dangerous. It's the sociopath who can create their own fictitious world as they need it, convincing others around them that they are a trusted friend.
riderinthestorm
(23,272 posts)Its been so many I made a post in Meta about how "we" collectively (DU in general) have been hurting DUers like you with the broad assumptions and ignorant conflation of anyone with a mental illness as being akin to Adam Lanza.
Very hurtful.
Thank you for your courage, your bravery and your persistence. You are making a difference. Stay strong.
SidDithers
(44,333 posts)there were a number of disgusting threads a few weeks blaming the Newton shooting on Lanza's use of SSRIs, even though there was no evidend that Lanza was taking any medication at all.
There was definately an agenda being pushed.
Sid
get the red out
(14,031 posts)I wish you well in your recovery!
What bothers me most is that the extreme suspicion of medications that help treat various forms of mental illness sounds rather "Alex Jonesian" itself; yet anyone like him has to be "nuts" (rather than just a slick con man).
JustAnotherGen
(38,054 posts)Because people are confusing mental illness with personality disorders. And because neither mental illness nor a personality killed 20 children . . . bullets did.
Permanut
(8,391 posts)Good on ya, as Thom Hartmann would say, for sharing your challenges, and for making an excellent point.
Union Scribe
(7,099 posts)Your voice here is such a valuable one.
historylovr
(1,557 posts) 
GeorgeGist
(25,570 posts)Seriously.
Neoma
(10,039 posts)
loyalsister
(13,390 posts)That's what I keep hearing on the topic. How could someone in their right mind want to (or would it be "not want to"
kill.... their spouse after catching them cheating, or the boss who fired them Christmas eve, the loan officer who made the bad loan and foreclosed on their home?
There are very ordinary situations and motives that are understood so universally that most of us can understand how someone might feel justified in killing. We understand this as rage rather than mental illness.
I see many people who are so dismayed by the recent killings that they are quick to shove aside the possibility that there is a kind of rage, or trail of murderous logic they do not understand.
It is much easier to think that people who may have bad intentions have been identified as having a mental illness because there is a chance they are being treated and don't blend in too easily.
I totally share your concerns and hope that threads like these serve to educate and improve our dialogue.
HereSince1628
(36,063 posts)when it showed up in the news. Perhaps because they feared their own emotional moments would get them labelled.
But, in the fury that broke after Newtown, anyone doing something in a rage filled moment just MUST be mentally ill.
It's not a little bit frightening to listen to Barbara Boxer and Hosts and Analysts on MSNBC talk about the need to keep guns out the hands of the undefined mentally ill. Not because the mentally ill should have guns, but because there is no thought at all for the institutionalized witch hunts in private medical records that will be sanctioned to support that goal.
If we spoke about the need to direct policy against any other arbitrarily bounded class there would be shock. But such broadbrushes about 'the mentally ill' pass the lips of our celebrities without reflection on their ambiguity.
loyalsister
(13,390 posts)I have fluctuated between cutting them slack because they find it hard to understand and being angry about the lack of interest in questioning the behaviors outside of preconceptions.
But the lack of will to try to avoid making the experience of people with mental illnesses worse by adding another reason for stigma is lazy and ignorant.
HereSince1628
(36,063 posts)with anti-depressants end up with their names in the same national database with felons.
In a country determined to turn all government functions over to for-profit vendors what could possibly go wrong?
loyalsister
(13,390 posts)Monitoring AA meetings will also be immensely popular
Robyn66
(1,675 posts)First of all- Full disclosure I am bi-polar. I don't feel I am a danger to myself or others but I have no problem not knowing where the key to the gun safe is. My husband hasn't hid it I just don't care to know. He hunts has one or two hunting rifles and that is it. I don't like guns but that is another story.
I have an uncle who has been in two armed stand offs with police, TWO. THe last one lasted around 40 hours. He lived in the state of NH and like my father he had enough guns to arm a small country which the police took when they took him in to custody. He is very ill. But the state of NH is lousy at caring for the mentally ill. After the dust settled from the first armed stand off, they GAVE HIS GUNS BACK TO HIM because in NH we believe you have a RIGHT to your GUNS!
Now, after the second armed stand off, he was taken in to custody, put in the hospital for a short time and then put in jail for something like 6 months, WAY TO HELP THE MENTALLY ILL!!!
I am not sure if he got his guns back this time but the fact of the matter is you can go in to Walmart and buy a gun off the shelf no matter who you are because they don't do a background check on you.
I think that a PART of the problem is mental health care. Appropriate mental health care is a BIG problem for MANY reasons. My problems include FINDING a psychiatrist for meds that takes my insurance, FINDING a therapist, there is just too much to go in to where the mental health system is lacking. I am bipolar and have PTSD, I had a breakdown and DIDN'T go in to the hospital and probably should have. I have lived with the stigma of having to hide scars or lie about what caused them so I understand that it is a rough subject. But personally I don't feel like people like me are being attacked. I feel that mental illness is not being appropriately diagnosed and treated especially in young people. That being said, it is only one part of the problem. The GUNS are the other part.
The assault weapons have to go. Period. No one NEEDS an assault rifle. The gun lust in this country is sick. I don't care how many mass shootings are committed with assault rifles, one would be enough but it is ever so many more than one mass killing and how often are assault rifles not used? I think that is the real question.
But none of this will improve until we can get the vast majority of Americans to believe in the sanctity of human life over gun lust. THere are talking points and statistics and all kinds of excuses that want to absolve the use of guns to kill people and don't forget the laughable false equivalency between guns and car accidents.
So I don't know the answer but I just would like to suggest to those who share my challenges that it is ok to say untreated mental illness is a problem. It is the shame of this country the poor state of the mental health system and I don't take that as an attack and I hope with all my heart that others can try and not take it as an attack either. We face enough struggles without borrowing more.
Peace
Glaug-Eldare
(1,089 posts)that is a felony and needs to be reported to the ATF immediately.
Robyn66
(1,675 posts)Glaug-Eldare
(1,089 posts)There is no state where FFLs are not required to perform background checks for purchasers. If Wal-Mart is involved in the retail sale of firearms, they must obey the laws for FFLs. If they are not obeying them, they need to be reported and audited by the ATF. They can catch huge fines and prison time for this.
Seriously. If this is a real complaint, forget whatever somebody told you about "how we do it in New Hampshire" and call ATF at 1-800-ATF-GUNS. Let them sweat the details.
Fire Walk With Me
(38,893 posts)drug ads, and consider what this may contribute to people's behavior and lives.
As I used to listen to these ads, I'd shout out like a set of Sushi chefs, "suicidal thoughts or behavior!" if it was one listed, and it often is.
http://www.bing.com/search?q=side+effects+suicidal&form=MOZSBR&pc=MOZI
musical_soul
(775 posts)I can't speak for the others, but I do not believe that any any type of mental problems equals being the type who can become a killer. That makes a *very small* percentage of those who are mentally ill. Those people have killed with different types of weapons.
I personally know a schizophrenic who says mental illness is not an excuse.
Chorophyll
(5,179 posts)We as a society are up to our necks in guns, bigotry, and hate. I guess it's easier to make a scapegoat of people with mental illness than it is to take a long hard look in the mirror. But it's wrong.
libdem4life
(13,877 posts)as a "tool" to "fix" lurking inner demons such as inhabit violent offenders of any type. They are usually far beyond the available tools of diagnosing, counseling and pharmaceuticals. It is less an issue of the psyche than an issue of the wounded soul and/or spirit.
Warm regards, OP, in your courage and bravery...also in posting and sharing your experiences. I pray you have loved ones to assist you in your journey.
defacto7
(14,162 posts)The whole discussion and misinformation would be unnecessary if the instruments of killing were disposed of. But that will probably never happen in this country. Because of that, people end up looking for quick and easy solutions that end up placing blame to point away from the fact that we are in a hole that can't be fixed and it's a hole of our own making. Humans don't like being cornered; we all seek answers to dilemma and when we can't find it, we create something, anything to patch the empty hole and cover our fears. Unfortunately, cruel and stupid words are flung around and people get hurt.
When we do our best to help others see from a different perspective and make our points, it's not of any use or worth the effort to expect people to change or be moved. We just plant the seed and know we did our bit to make the point and move on.
Thanks for your strong and reasonable point of view.
It's primarily a technique to "other" someone that's found distasteful. If we say this or that man or woman was mentally ill, we don't have to look at ourselves as a society and wonder what we might have contributed to their actions. Mental illness might play a role in a mass shooting, but it certainly isn't an equal role to our constant glorification of violence. (I don't mean video games or movies. I mean glorification of real violence against real people.)
The platform murder wasn't mental illness, it was ignorance and hate. The same bullshit that caused hicks to drag an African American behind a pickup. They weren't mentally ill either. They were just hateful bigots. It's damned useful to scapegoat mentally ill people for that one, because then people don't have to look back at what they might have said about Muslims over the last decade that contributed to an atmosphere that made someone think it was ok to kill someone they thought looked like a Muslim.
I fear the mentally ill will be the last minority it's socially acceptable to attack, because it's the most convenient and useful one to use as a scapegoat.
WiffenPoof
(2,404 posts)I too have been disturbed by those on this board that speak from a point of ignorance.
P
ileus
(15,396 posts)on the fact I'm getting ready to go to work...
and haven't bought a dirt bike yet this year...
or washed my Honda for a few weeks...
Oh and it's all your fault I haven't taken down the Christmas lights yet, hopefully you'll stop being a roadblock and I'll get it done this weekend.
Denninmi
(6,581 posts)Especially the bike. I have my eye on a Specialized Stump Jumper mountain bike for the spring. I set 3 specific goals to meet at my gym, if I make all 3 by April 1 I'll get it, a couple of guys from the cycle club who do true mountain biking told me they would take me out in the spring and show me the ropes.
Hey, if you want to blame me for your plight, I'm happy to take it.
ileus
(15,396 posts)The opened a new trail system on National Forrest behind my house, but I never made it there. Some guys I know are riding nearly every weekend but I'm too lazy to get my bike out. 
The Straight Story
(48,121 posts)(And by 'nuts' I refer to how some love to use the term gun nuts around here as though that makes the argument for them)
Used to be people blamed individuals and looked at the whys of what they did. Now it is more like the middle ages where we look for demons to blame.
If a gun was used, blame guns. If the person had a mental health history, fear all people with MI issues and want to make sure only 'good' people can buy guns.
Jennicut
(25,415 posts)Been on Prozac, Lexapro, Celexa, Zoloft, etc. I had my own "breakdown" at 20. And I was on a psych ward for about 2 days. It sucks. Depression is an illness I wish on no one. I finally feel like have some control over it now. I take meds for it every day and hate the total hatred of meds because they really have saved my life.
I do feel like there needs to be more balance when we discuss mental illness. There are so many different types, some that are more inward then outward. Depression usually involves wanting to hurt yourself, I have never wanted to hurt anyone else.
Denninmi
(6,581 posts)Some of the finest people I have ever met were a couple of guys and women I befriended during my three week partial hospitalization program. Good, kind souls who could feel great empathy for others, just not capable of handling their own issues without outside help.
Jennicut
(25,415 posts)I have been there. I had a wonderful psychologist help me about 7 years ago. She made me feel that I was the one that could change my life instead of feeling like my depression controlled everything. Very non judgemental too. I found the right meds and learned coping strategies that helped.
Denninmi
(6,581 posts)I have a great therapist, too. Meds, meh, not a problem, doesn't bother me if I'm on it long term, generic lamictal is dirt cheap.
dkf
(37,305 posts)Mass shootings/killings (including bombs).
It should be done more from a profiling angle where specific disorders are targeted FOR HELP.
But people with certain problems, hallucinations, psychosis, paranoia, probably shouldn't have access to guns.
Neoma
(10,039 posts)You imagine it.