Do you think violent movies, TV, and video games contribute NOTHING to the carnage in this country?

[Larrymoe Curlyshemp]

If so, I respectfully disagree. Do NOT misunderstand me: The overwhelming #1 cause of death by shooting in America is the fact that we allow every Tom, Dick and (Wannabe Dirty) Harry to possess firearms that the founders never envisioned or intended in their most fevered dreams!

But to say that Hollywood splatterfests, shoot 'em up shows on televvision, and, yes, video games drenched in CGI blood, which raise the heartbeats of players to over 250 per minute, and which the military itself uses to train soldiers, have absolutely NO impact on the problem?

Sorry, but that's dogmatism.

[LeftyMom]

1. Your username caused me to poke somebody in the eye.

[Larrymoe Curlyshemp]

2. awok awok awok!

[JohnnyRingo]

29. I get it.

I grew up in that era, and I remember the outrage by some that the Three Stooges were inciting violence among children. Kinda ironic, isn't it?

[Fumesucker]

3. Do they contribute to the carnage in Japan?

[Posteritatis]

11. Or Canada? (nt)

[JI7]

15. maybe they play different video games and watch different movies than us

[jeff47]

19. They don't.

They play the exact same games and get the same movies in Canada and Western Europe.

In Japan, they get our games and movies, as well as games and movies that are so horrifically violent that no one will distribute them outside Japan.

[geomon666]

40. Hell if anything, in Japan those movies are more violent.

We'd never get away with showing something like Battle Royale or Ichi The Killer.

[frylock]

135. Battle Royale comes to mind

[BlueCaliDem]

54. Or Holland? Germany? The UK? Belgium? France?

I mean, they all have the same video games and watch the same movies as we do. The answer, thus, is no.

[KittyWampus]

70. The suicide rate in Japan is very high. Social conformity is expected>violence turned inwards

[LittleBlue]

132. Good response. Thread was ended quickly.

Nothing more to see here.

[0rganism]

4. that same media is available in other countries too

Look, if the violence of a society were inherited directly from its movies, TV shows, and video games, Japan would have the highest murder rate on the planet. (They don't...) But even positing indirect influence, there's a world of difference between fake violence and real violence.

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/jimquisition/6692-Desensitized-to-Violence

[Larrymoe Curlyshemp]

8. Yes

But I'm talking about this country!

[jeff47]

20. Your theory would require other countries to be similarly affected

If violent media caused violent crime, other countries with violent media would have to also experience lots of violent crime.

[KittyWampus]

87. Actually, there is violent crime Europe. In fact, it's quite high. I was just looking at statistics.

Not all violent crime involves a gun.

Check out the rape statistics.

[99Forever]

39. Well then..

...your answer would be to completely ignore all evidence that blows your premise out of the water, eh?

Yeah, that's gonna happen!

[0rganism]

130. so then the question becomes "Why is *this* country so damned different?"

It's "American exceptionalism" in reverse. Other countries that produce and consume media content at least as violent as what we get here have discovered ways to distinguish between fantasy and reality that we, apparently, can't figure out. Why is this society so backward and inept that we are impressionable in ways that others are not? Are our fragile little minds so incapable of handling certain ideas that we must contemplate censorship where others do not? Why are we all so immature?

I'd prefer to go back to what you said at the start of your OP, let's start by improving regulation of the commerce of firearms and see how much that helps with the violence. One thing is certain, and I think we could agree on this point: it is much easier for our citizenry to commit fatal acts of violence than it ought to be.

[Downwinder]

5. Are violent movies, TV, and video games a cause or effect?

Is current fare more violent than Mighty Mouse, Elmer Fudd and Bugs Bunny, etc? Bear in mind that Sylvester J. Pussycat, Sr. won three Academy Awards.

[Kalidurga]

6. Violence is not an invention of film makers, video game makers, or comic book writers...

In fact people may have been even more violent before people settled down into agrarian societies and industrial societies. It is not to say that violence in the media has never been a factor in any crime ever. But, to say that it's somehow responsible is kind of crazy. People do violent things with or without the help of the media. The most violent terrorist attack on school children wasn't from a man with a gun it was from a man with explosives and this was in Bath Michigan in 1927, he was I suppose the original tea bagger his motive being that he felt his taxes were too high and the reason he lost his farm. He murdered a lot of students over this. And regulations over the means of making explosives were tightened.

So, what do you propose to do to reduce the chances of someone being influenced to violence from the media?

[nyquil_man]

7. I don't know, but crushing someone's head in a vice is HILARIOUS.

If Curly's eye had popped out I would have peed myself!

[Larrymoe Curlyshemp]

9. A simple request before bedtime

Please read the op, not just the headlone. Good night.

[Confusious]

10. Well if you want people to take you seriously

Don't fall into hyperbole. i.e. 250 beats a minute

The heart isn't an electric motor. It doesn't pump more blood the faster it goes.

The heart works in a range of speeds, 60 being the average, at rest. You get up to 120, and the heart can't finish a beat before starting another one, so you get inefficient blood flow. At 150-175, you're going to pass out.

at 250bpm, you would die.

I've had tachycardia, that's how I know. It's not fun, and scary as shit.


As far as video games, using them to train people for war is like masturbating to train yourself for sex. No where near the same. at all.

I've played video games, and had someone shoot at me trying to kill me.

[Spider Jerusalem]

12. I don't think so, no

because violent games and films are very popular in countries that haven't got America's crazed gun fetish; those countries also don't have routine mass shootings and high rates of firearms murders. Look at the UK; murder rate is one in 100k and there were fewer than a dozen fatal shootings last year. I personally think that trying to blame it on anything BUT the guns (it's video games/movies/rap music/mental illness!) is either disingenuous, wilful blind ignorance, or blatant stupidity.

[justiceischeap]

13. Let's say, "Yes, violent movies, TV, and video games contribute to carnage in this country."

The next logical question is, what is wrong with Americans that violent movies, TV, and video games contribute to carnage in this country. These mass shootings don't happen in other countries, so it has to be something wrong with Americans that violent movies, TV, and video games somehow convince/condition these unwell people to go out and kill innocent children.

Using Newtown as an example, instead of having a discussion about why the mother, herself a victim in this latest mass shooting, allowed easy access to her weapon's stash, when by all reports, she knew her son to be unwell, let's instead talk about movies, tv and video games. Instead of having the discussion of why this family didn't seek help for their son who was reportedly unwell, let's instead talk about movies, tv and video games. Or let's talk about a guy who was unwell, killed some people and it was because his neighbor bought guns for him. The system was actually working in that case, but the neighbor circumvented that system but instead we'll talk about movies, TV and video games.

Or how about we talk about the millions upon millions of people who watch violent movies, TV and play violent video games that DON'T go out and kill a bunch a people, nor have never had the desire to shoot any living being or own a gun. Nah, that would be too logical and wouldn't go to making your point that it's never easy access to weapons or the lack of proper mental health care in this country but violent movies, TV and video games instead.

[JI7]

16. we can then blame the mentally ill, and after that

we can post about the guy in china who went on the attack at the school with a knife.

[justiceischeap]

24. How many kids died in China because of that knife attack?

It's just so frustrating that no one wants to talk about the real issues when it comes to this shit. Instead they want to find a thing that really has nothing to do with it to blame.

[KittyWampus]

85. even MORE frustrating is that apparently violent crime is acceptable if it doesn't involve guns.

The "real" issue is violent crimes.

Even if we banned guns completely there'd still be violent crime.

So the overarching issue is violent crime and ultimately violence.

[A Simple Game]

123. Not acceptable, just less fatal. n/t

[KittyWampus]

93. Considering that some European countries & Canada do have fairly high gun ownership rates

you have approached an interesting topic.

What is wrong in America?

But while Europe/Canada does have fewer gun related homicides, they do have violent crime.

[justiceischeap]

136. I don't think, unless we lobotomize people, we are going to do away with violent crime

however, we can take steps to make those crimes less fatal.

[RandiFan1290]

14. You sound JUST like the Glenn Beck show!

Shocker!

[loose wheel]

17. You mean to tell me...

that George Washington never looked out across a battlefield and said to himself, "Man, if I only had guns that could be fired faster than twice a minute and could hist something further than one hundred yards out."

The founder were aware of private ships of war and even provided for their contract use (see letters of marque in the constitution). These ships were capable of leveling entire cities, so it seems that they did provide that powerful weapons could be in civilian hands.

A heart rate over 220 bpm is redline danger territory for a heart attack or an aneurism, and the military does no such thing.

I don't think violent movies have much of an impact as a lot of the baby boomers grew up watching Westerns on TV and War movies at the theater.

The last point I'll bring up is one of agreement. Studies from WW1, WW2, and Korea indicated that only about 10% of American troops actively targeted and fired upon enemy soldiers. They were raised in an environment where "Thou shalt not kill" was the highest law. The US Army modified it's Basic Rifle Marksmanship program, and instead of stationary round targets, troops shot at human sihouettes that popped up and dropped down after a few seconds. This switched thinking from "Thou shalt not kill" to "Must shoot quickly" and ended that particular problem. Most video games don't provide the player with a simulated rifle, but the goal is kill quickly. So yes, they do have an effect on a some small portion of the population.

[Locrian]

18. another angle

I don't know about the violence in movies/tv etc affecting the *general* population. I mean to the extent of pushing them to commit the shootings etc. I think you do have to have a 'special' (call it whatever you want) type of person that reacts off of the 'normal'. But can they in some cases? absolutely.

That said, what I think is a DEFINITE effect of the portrayal of violence etc is the ADVERTISING of GUNS as SOLUTIONS in almost ALL the action movies/tv/games. It's 24/7/365 adds for guns. There are reality shows about guns. The movies are filled with 'hardware' (ie guns) of all types and 'cool' (not my word for it, I call it 'sick') stuff.

I think a lot of people want to be the HERO. And be LIKE the hero - which in almost all cases means using GUNS to solve a problem. Which means buying guns, you know, in case zombies, bad guys WHATEVER attacks.

It gets in. Billions of $$ are spent in advertising that says if you make people uncomfortable (fear) and show them a 'solution' that they buy it. THAT is what I think a lot of the movies / tv / etc do the 'best'.

Couple that with easy access and a general culture of the above, plus fear, etc and you get a nation awash in guns.

[obamanut2012]

21. No

[Recursion]

22. Personally, yes

I think they have no impact on the problem of gun violence, or one so small as to be negligible.

[1-Old-Man]

23. Here is a sub-argument in defense of what you have said

To the best of my knowledge, comming from the blather that is television news, that in the mass killings that have taken place over the last decade or so virtually all of the killers have been described as loners, hermits, or other things that indicate they were isolated from those around them. If that is the case, and to the best of my knowledge it is, then you have to ask yourself where a person who has little socialization gets their notions of proper behavior? I would suggest that lacking human interaction at any meaningful level they take their social norms from the television and the movies, which are little more than blood-fests.

Their entire world view comes from the media simply because they lack any meaningful contact with their fellow humans.

[jeff47]

26. Because only people in the US are hermits?

How come other countries with the same media don't have the same level of violence? Is there some mechanism that produces many more hermits in the US than other countries?

[1-Old-Man]

45. I don't know, but it might be. I am also think of that fellow who killed many last summer

And please excuse me for not looking this up, but I think it was in Norway that the fellow went to some island that was being used as a youth camp of some sort. He had the luxury of a couple of hours shooting spree and I think he shot something like 40 or so people. So its not just a problem here, but of course it seems to be worse here than elsewhere.

I honestly think we have developed a more violent character, probably originating with the false bravado that was our self-proclaimed winning of the second world war. Go ask the Russians who actually paid the price for winning that war - but that is another discussion. At any rate we are the home of international bloody media. Turn on a television to any commercial channel you like and just watch the previews of upcoming movies that are going to be released in the next couple of weeks - it will be an absolute bloodfest that they show. Commercial television programs aren't a bit better and I honestly think that for many many people the television defines their version of reality.

[jeff47]

53. No, we're not home to bloody media

There are comics, movies and video games in Japan that are so horrifically violent that no one will distribute them outside Japan. They are in an utterly different league when it comes to violence in media.

And to answer my question, no hermits aren't unique to the US. But our level of violence is unique. IMO it's because we idolize sociopaths, which doesn't require any actual violence. For example, vulture capitalists are revered without them physically attacking anyone.

And they're thrilled when we spend our time battling strawmen like violent media instead of looking at them.

[randome]

55. Everything should be on the table. Otherwise, we are not serious about change.

If vulture capitalism may have an influence, then put it on the table. I'm all for that.

[jeff47]

76. Then I want intergalactic radioactive walruses on the table.

For too long we have ignored their interplanetary mammalian threat. But I'm absolutely sure their demonic thought rays are converting peaceful, God-fearing people into violent killing machines so that we destroy each other in preparation for their invasion.

Things should only be on the table if they actually do something. Putting the above "on the table" would be a waste of time and effort, when we're already going to be fighting a very uphill battle on issues we know are part of the problem - such as the availability of extremely effective guns.

The problem with the "it's violent media" theory is its proponents have not explained how come other countries don't suffer it with the same media, or even more violent media. So we'd be spending time trying to clean up something that doesn't appear to have any direct effect.

[randome]

79. No one is saying "It's violent media."

"It's" meaning "It is". No one is saying violent media is a cause of mass murder. But it's among the top 10 or so possibilities that people suspect have an influence.

What's wrong with some self-examination? Do you think the government is going to take away our games? I don't think so.

Even if they outlawed all future violent video games, are you suggesting that some would miss having a steady influx of new violent gaming? How can someone 'miss' that? It sounds kind of disturbing to me.

We can't determine what solutions are appropriate unless we look at a range of possiblities. And how they interact with OTHER possibilities.

Intergalactic radioactive walruses are not very likely as one of those possibilities. Although it sounds like a cool pet to have.

As Michael Moore pointed out, Americans are more fearful and hateful. That's a big difference between us and other countries.

[1-Old-Man]

99. Good thinking

I think you've said it well. I'm not saying that it is the movies or TV that cause the killing. But the same thing that causes me to say that also causes me to say its not the guns that cause the killing either. Both add to the mix that causes the triggers to be pulled.

And in a sense radio-active walruses may be part of the cause too. I'm not saying that plain and simple mental illness, illusions and such, may not play a big part too. Who would deny that any mass killer, or serial killer either for that matter, isn't a very sick person? It just seems to me that modern culture as provided by the omnipresent media has to be way up there on the list of causal participants in the mess we have. I was thinking about this on the way back from the grocery store this morning too: You take a young persons who are feeling alienated from his (or her) peers, they have never traveled and for the most part do not read. Where do they get their perceptions of how society functions if not from the television and the movies? These people are not suspending disbelief, they believe.

[randome]

101. Hell, even the Internet may have an influence.

It connects us but it also isolates us. I'm not interested in censorship or outright bans on anything. But I AM interested in -if not having an answer- then having a hypothesis that may lead to fewer mass murders in the future.

I drink coffee. If there was an iota of proof that coffee has an influence on mentally disturbed individuals, I would give it up in a heartbeat.

I want to know the truth, wherever it may lead. If I can't find the truth, I want something that is at least a good substitute.

[KittyWampus]

109. What drives suicidal mass shooters > researcher links suicide bombers/mass shooters.

very interesting article

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/18/opinion/what-drives-suicidal-mass-killers.html?_r=0

[jeff47]

127. Do you realize this same argument was used against your generation?

You take a young persons who are feeling alienated from his (or her) peers, they have never traveled and for the most part do not read. Where do they get their perceptions of how society functions if not from the television and the movies? These people are not suspending disbelief, they believe.

Was it true for you? No. It's not true for us. Or our kids.

[jeff47]

121. Actually, you are

In as much as you are saying it's a cause. No one is claiming you are saying it's the cause. But you are saying it is a cause.

And again, my point is for your claim to make sense, you have to explain why violent media appears to have no effect on any country other than the US. Otherwise, it makes no sense as a cause - if violent media causes humans to be violent, then that would be just as true inside the US as outside the US.

What's wrong with some self-examination?

When you are self-examining something that's irrelevant, you aren't examining things that are relevant.

Even if they outlawed all future violent video games, are you suggesting that some would miss having a steady influx of new violent gaming? How can someone 'miss' that? It sounds kind of disturbing to me.

That's because you're busy insisting violent media is a cause and people must be addicted in order to not want to examine it.

I don't want a repeat of the Meese commission. I don't want to waste our time analyzing something when we can already demonstrate there is no link. Groups like the NRA are going to be fighting like hell to blame anything but access to guns, and every bit of effort we spend on violent media is effort we can't spend on guns. Meaning more guns.

Chasing violent media will cause real-world people to die, and will find the same result as all the previous times we've studied it - there is no link. I'm not willing to trade those dead for people to feel good.

[randome]

125. 'Influence'. Not 'cause'.

There is very little science that can reliably predict human behavior. All we have to go on are suppositions, theories and anecdotal 'evidence'.

I don't want a repeat of the Meese Commission, either. But if we had a list of the top 10 items in order to reduce mass murders in our country, I would think violence-soaked media should be somewhere in that list.

It can be examined and discounted so time is not wasted but there are enough people who think it SHOULD be examined that I don't want to push it off the table. The government CAN do more than one thing at a time.

As far as the NRA 'fighting like hell', I suspect the video gaming industry and dedicated gamers will do the same. That should not matter if the only thing that counts is getting closer to a working hypothesis.

[jeff47]

128. Actually, there's plenty of science that can do so

We even created an entire field called psychology.

Exposure to violent media has been studied, through brain scans and behavioral studies. It has an effect on people exposed to it....for about 20 minutes. That effect is to desensitize people to violence. There was no detectable increase in the violent tendencies of the person.

And we also have this gigantic experiment called the real world, where we expose people in the US, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, Western Europe, Japan, South Korea, Taiwan, and a lot of other places to the same violent media. Yet we don't get violent results outside the US. Kinda indicates violent media doesn't have an effect.

But if we had a list of the top 10 items in order to reduce mass murders in our country, I would think violence-soaked media should be somewhere in that list.

And as I keep asking you over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over again, why does it have no effect outside the US?

If violent media was a contributing factor, it would be a contributing factor everywhere. But the US is far more violent than every other country exposed to the same violent media.

I realize you really, really, really want to be able to point a finger at violent media. But you have to explain why nowhere else in the world is affected by the exact same media.

As far as the NRA 'fighting like hell', I suspect the video gaming industry and dedicated gamers will do the same.

Because they have the same resources and influence.

[randome]

133. Michael Moore said the difference stems from Americans being more fearful.

From that, I would add 'paranoid' and 'hateful'. There is plenty of all these things in the world at large but in America, it seems to have a different bent to it. I'm glad we don't go around beheading people we don't agree with but killing scores of innocent school children is just as bad, IMO.

Again, just an opinion. And something that deserves more research, perhaps. I don't have a definitive answer on why other countries don't have as big a problem as we do.

But I do not want to 'point a finger' at any one thing. Again you seem to think I am putting the blame on violent media. I am not. I'm asking the question -as many others are asking- does it have an effect on us? Does it 'encourage' more violent thoughts in the minds of the already mentally distressed? I would like it to be addressed, that's all.

Biden is talking with the video gaming industry. If nothing comes of it, fine. So long as it's discounted for the right reasons.

[jeff47]

139. And I say it's from those walruses

Both statements have the same basis in science: None.

And if we assume this theory is true, wouldn't it be a better idea to fix that "fearful/paranoid/hateful" part instead? That way you'd get rid of the violence, and people are less fearful, paranoid and hateful.

And something that deserves more research, perhaps.

What was the problem with the previous research?

But I do not want to 'point a finger' at any one thing.

Definite versus indefinite articles. I'm not picking which to use willy-nilly.

Point the finger would mean it's the primary or only cause. I didn't say that. I said point a finger. Meaning there's other fingers to be pointed at other locations.

I'm asking the question -as many others are asking- does it have an effect on us? Does it 'encourage' more violent thoughts in the minds of the already mentally distressed?

For about 20 minutes, through desensitization. Not shown to encourage violence.

[KittyWampus]

105. I think Institutional Violence in the USA might be a factor too. Poverty for instance.

Shredding of social safety net.

Europe has a much more evolved welfare state.

[KittyWampus]

104. You need to be specific in saying "gun violence" because Europe also has violent crimes like rape.

[jeff47]

124. Unless you're actually trying to argue about violent media

There's no reason violent media would only lead to gun violence. If violent media triggers violence in people, it would trigger more crimes than just gun violence.

[KittyWampus]

103. Mass shootings do happen in other countries. Proliferation of guns in the US points to need for gun

control. But the poster has an excellent point.

There is a researcher who compares mass shooters with suicide bombers.

[jeff47]

122. Except in other countries they are exceptionally rare.

In the US, we call them "Tuesday".

Time spent trying to rid us of violent media means more dead people. Because we're going after something proven to not be a cause instead of issues that are.

[marions ghost]

69. yes there is a personality type

--a fragile type that sees games and movies as providing solutions. In a country where guns are prevalent and easy to get, it's not hard to see the combination is lethal.

Not to see the effect of movies and games on people with emotional problems is just another form of denial, an attempt to shut down dialogue.

[jeff47]

25. Today people blame video games

20 years ago, it was violent TV
10 years before that, it was violent movies
10 years before that, it was that devil music known as "Rock 'n Roll".

and so on and so on.

If media caused violence, then the places that got the same media would also get violence. They don't. Canada, Australia, all of Western Europe and Japan get the same games. The same movies. The same TV. They don't have anywhere near our level of violence. Even when you take guns out of the comparison.

which raise the heartbeats of players to over 250 per minute

That would actually be fatal.

which the military itself uses to train soldiers

They use it to teach unit tactics. Not violence. Because they've found using a joystick to control a virtual gun is nothing like a real gun.

[randome]

33. We didn't have widely available torture porn in previous decades.

I understand your point but I think we would be a better society if we at least toned down some of the visceral violence.

[jeff47]

48. And that argument has been used for decades.

We didn't have (fill in the blank) in previous decades. When people were trying to explain how TV was different from movies, and how movies were different from comic books, and how rock-n-roll was different from older music, and so on.

And again, other countries have the same media.

[Posteritatis]

142. Yeah, about that, might wanna look into the stuff that inspired the Comics Code.

The Code itself was ridiculous draconian bullshit, but they were reacting to stuff that most people these days wouldn't think existed in the wonderful, civilized, rose-coloured past.

[snooper2]

27. I blame a lot of it on the Scary Movie series...

[NeedleCast]

28. I think they contribute so little it might as well be nothing

Studies just don't seem to back up your assertion.

[Johonny]

35. pretty much

[ancianita]

30. I think that what video games provide is an aggression displacement outlet. At worst they condition

an immediate fantasy trigger toward aggression similar to those of the famous short story character, Walter Mitty.

[JaneyVee]

31. Movies are made to watch. Guns are made to kill.

[LanternWaste]

32. Garbage in, garbage out...

Garbage in, garbage out...

Which is the intake and which is the outtake is the puzzle.

[Puzzledtraveller]

34. Complete lack of parenting does more damage, maybe irreperable damage

than any movie, film, game....

[Romulox]

36. In fact, one of the reasons our movie industry is such low quality is pandering to overseas markets.

Movies with a lot of dialogue don't get made these days. Movies with explosions and comic book characters do.

That's because there are no subtitles needed for explosions.

[kydo]

37. Um to answer your question, No, but

No really the movies, games, shows, books, music etc, really honestly for the most part numb us. All those things just reflect what is already happening.

But I think the difference between the US and other developed countries that have access to guns and the same movies, games, shows, books, music etc, is that they don't have hate radio and faux news inciting violence through hate and fear that they spew 24/7.

When people start talking about the violence in movies and games they are forgetting you have this whole other industry constantly telling down right out lies, encouraging them to be violent. I think we need to regulate hate radio and faux news plus a total ban high capacity military assault weapons (this means automatic, semi-automatic weapons and their ammo).

[randome]

38. If hate radio can influence us, then so can violent movies and videogames.

[kydo]

41. no

the movies and games aren't telling to do things hate radio is.

[randome]

42. Gaming is a way of life for many. That should be cause for concern right there.

I don't believe in any other decade has there been this intense focus on playing 'games' as there is today.

Why is that? Is it because the virtual reality environment makes it seem real? Why don't we see millions of people playing Monopoly day in and day out?

Playing games today is not the same as playing games in previous decades.

[kydo]

46. I'm not saying

that some people take games way over the top and that we shouldn't be concerned if all a person does is play games 24/7. Nor am I saying that the arts have no role in the violent society we have in the US.

What I am saying is that one of the biggest difference from us and other countries is hate radio and hate tv.

You have people telling you ....

government is the enemy
take back your country
they are coming for your guns
white people are being oppressed
christians are being oppressed
its womens fault
pro choice is bad bomb planned parent hood
fem-nazi
make the white house white
the government should help drug addicts and thieves
black people are all on welfare taking your money
the president is hitler
take back your country
god hates gays so you should to

I could go on and on, hate radio and hate tv do, they go on and on 24/7 and take callers expresssing the same thing..

When you add the hate and fear being spread by hate radio and faux news to a society already numb to violence and access to high capacity military assault weapons, its just a matter of time before the next killing.

These things happen much less in other countries that watch the same movies we do, listen to the same music we do, and play the same games we do. What they don't have and that we do is hate radio, hate tv and access to military assault weapons. The thing other countries have that we don't have is access to mental health resources and less a stigma for seeking mental health care.

Its when you combine all of this together you get monthly massacres like we have in the US.

[randome]

49. Yeah, hate radio should be on the table as well.

We should leave no stone unturned.

[mn9driver]

43. These things exist because there is a clear market for them.

Especially among adolescent and young adult males. The fantasy of heroic violence is close to universal at this age and it goes back for generations in this country as well as many others. I had it. I didn't go out and shoot people up. My sons have it. They aren't going out to shoot people up. All the other consumers in other countries who view these movies and games have it, too. They don't go out and shoot people up.

Here are the 2 most common exceptions:

1. Young men who are encouraged to act on these fantasies by real life authority figures and are given the tools to do so. This applies to more than one situation and more than one country/culture and I'm not going to start a flame war about any of them.

2. Young men who, through mental illness, drugs, or whatever, have no need for reinforcement from an actual authority figure. They generate one internally, AND they must still have access to the tools.

Movies and games are not authority figures. It takes severe mental illness for someone to turn Batman or Call of Duty into permission to act.

And even then, it STILL requires access to the tools. Without a realistic prospect of being able to act, even a mentally ill young man will find another less destructive way to resolve his internal conflict.

The rest of the world has figured out how to allow this very common and normal fantasy to play out harmlessly. Unfortunately here in the US, not as much. The difference between here and everywhere else: Untreated/undiagnosed mental illness combined with easy access to mass killing tools.

[LiberalEsque01]

44. Indeed

[jberryhill]

47. There is more violence in the Bible than a Tarantino movie

[Shadowflash]

80. Not just MORE but also worse.

A lot of it is even more sick, twisted and horrific than you find in movies.

[RomneyLies]

50. They are a SYMPTOM of the problem, not a cause n/t

[randome]

52. I don't think anyone is saying they are a cause.

But can they have an effect on already mentally disturbed individuals? It's a question that needs examination. Just as kydo pointed out above about hate radio.

Everything should be on the table. Otherwise, we are not serious about change.

[RomneyLies]

56. I got that the OP was saying they were a cause.

A dog owned by a neighbor can have an effect on an already mentally disturbed individual. If you don't believe me, ask David Berkowitz.

[randome]

59. As serious as we should be about self-examination on this topic...

...if neighbor-owned dogs were suspected of influencing mass murder, it should be on the table. But no one even suspects that as an influence.

If we truly want change, we should leave no stone unturned. Video games. Hate radio. Gun access. Mental illness.

Nothing should be off the table if we suspect it of having an influence. The influence can be discounted and discarded but when enough people chime in saying it should be on the table, then it should be on the table.

[RomneyLies]

62. Oh really? a neighbor's dog WAS an influence in mass murder

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Berkowitz

We should have been looking at outlawing dogs since 1977 by your logic.

[randome]

66. The prevalence of opinion does not implicate dogs, however.

There are enough people who believe that violence in the media and an obsession with gaming MAY contribute to a climate that fosters murder in already mentally disturbed individuals. Notice the 'MAY'.

If you truly believe that dogs are contributing to this climate, then convince enough people to support your position and contact Joe Biden.

[RomneyLies]

74. Fallacy Ad Populum

[randome]

75. I don't agree. We need starting points.

Obviously, we can't put everything in the Universe on the table. The table isn't that big.

An examination of the top 10 possibilities would be good. It sounds like Biden IS talking to the video gaming industry. That doesn't mean anything will come of it but at least it's on the table and I think it should be.

[Report1212]

51. They're a symptom not a cause nt

[Voice for Peace]

57. I think they are most definitely a piece of the puzzle.

The good guys always have lots of guns and zillions of rounds.
They are glamorous, smart, endearing, humane.

Shows and movies like this are exciting and engrossing.
They absolutely imprint on the human psyche.

I don't know much about video games but I think
it's even more likely.. the visceral experience of shooting
and killing in a game. The mindset of "bad guys need to
be taken out."

I believe there are many pieces, it's a pretty complex
issue.

[MynameisBlarney]

58. I think a very very tiny

percentage of people are triggered by violent games and movies.
But they are likely batshit crazy anyway and are ticking time bombs who would go on killing sprees regardless.

[Sheepshank]

60. I think internet bulletin boards and Fox News contribute more to the violence problem that gamess

It's their job, and they are good at raising paranoia to outragrous levels and scaring the shit outta people with guns. ADULTS are doing most of the shooting and they know that games are games. The type that has 5-6-50 guns thinks Bekk, Limpballs, Fox and LaPierre are to be trusted, and look to Freeperville for support, have that paranoia fed constantly.

[randome]

61. Then that should be on the table, as well.

I think enough people would agree with you.

[Sheepshank]

63. seems like there are politicians that like to provoke anger, paranoia and revenge

Palin and Angle come to mind. On the table they go.

[randome]

67. They're selling crap that too many are buying into.

Even if nothing comes from Joe Biden's task force but finding ways to advocate for more civil discourse among politicians, at least SOMETHING will have been done.

[WilmywoodNCparalegal]

64. Yes, I don't think they contribute a thing to carnage in this country

Shakespeare has very gruesome violence in his works. He also has very crude sexual innuendos and references in his works. The Bible has its share of murder, rape and violence. Greek and Roman mythology abound with stories of rape, vengeful people, violence, homicide, etc.

The Aztec or Mayans or Toltecs (can't recall which) used to play a version of soccer where the ball was an enemy's severed head. They also practiced human sacrifice.

Some tribes practiced and practice cannibalism.

The point is that violence and abhorring behavior have been part of human nature since the beginning. Plenty of people around the world watch the same movies and TV shows, and play the same videogames 'drenched in CGI blood.'

I am one of those, by the way. I play Call of Duty games nightly after work with other players from all over the world. I am quite good at it. It's a great stress reliever and I enjoy kicking people's asses virtually. I am a 40-year old happily married woman who certainly does not fit the stereotypes of gamers. Yes, my heartbeat goes up - but mostly because the people I play against tend to be homophobic and sexist twerps and it gives me pleasure that a 'girl' beats them.

I remember growing up in Italy and watching Italian TV shows where women are often scantily clad and sometimes even topless. I remember watching movies with nudity and lovemaking. I didn't grow up to be a sex addict or a rapist or a pornographer.

I enjoyed "Django Unchained" immensely and I think it was this year's best movie. It has plenty of violence - much of which is exaggerated on purpose. Yet, I'm not going out to shoot a bunch of people.

In fact, I don't own guns or rifles nor do I have the yearning to do so. I am an otherwise well adjusted person who believes there need to be more restrictions on gun ownership including better and more consistent registration methods (ones that are similar from state to state), yearly licensing, mandatory liability insurance, periodic testing, etc.

I realize that it would be impossible to remove guns and rifles from American homes. I also realize the gun culture in this country is part of its fabric and that there are some people who still cling to and romanticize the Old West, much like some southerners romanticize the Civil War.

Culturally, Americans believe that to defend themselves they need more weapons, an idea that is foreign to me - a foreigner. I think The Onion said it best lately. They illustrated how a family got killed by a gorilla and how suddenly everyone wants a gorilla for self-defense.

A car kills, but killing is not the purpose of the car. A beer can kill, but beer's purpose is not to kill. And so on. But a gun or rifle's sole purpose is to inflict injury - including death - on another being. Thus, it should be treated differently than a car or alcohol or drugs.

[Rex]

65. Then how do other nations deal with this crisis of yours?

They don't have the gun deaths that America does, but have the same access to movies, video games, etc..

[randome]

71. They are not as fearful nor as hateful as Americans.

[L0oniX]

68. I'm going with neuro toxins and neuro chemical imbalance.

Early childhood lead exposure along with all the other neuro toxins.

[Comrade_McKenzie]

72. I don't have to "think." The statistics do it for me. nt

[KittyWampus]

73. Yet DU'ers will constantly blame FOX News & Rush Limbaugh. HYPOCRITES. Either Media does have

an effect or it doesn't. Pick a fucking lane.

[berni_mccoy]

77. There is no hypocrisy. Most who listen to FOX aren't listening in the same context

as when they go to see a movie for purely entertainment purposes.

FOX viewers listen to it as if it were News reported in good faith.

They likely don't go to see Avengers in the same context.

That being said, the average IQ of a Fox News viewer is lower than the average age of a Fox News viewer.

[KittyWampus]

81. Yes of course there is hypocrisy. Either it influences someone or it doesn't. Your need to try and

rationalize why it influences some and not others just points out your hypocrisy.

Either it does or doesn't.

PICK A LANE.

You tacitly admit that it does effect some people. So you picked a lane and then decided to drive in both lanes anyway.

[Zoeisright]

91. You need to rationalize why you can't understand

the difference between watching a GAME and listening to someone tell you your life is in danger and the only solution is to arm yourself and shoot people.

Christ on a fucking crutch. What a STUPID post.

[KittyWampus]

100. I picked my lane that is backed with science. That Media does influence our behavior, attitudes.

My position is backed by science.

So the stupid is pretending Media doesn't influence us.

I'm not a hypocrite.

Rush Limbaugh is a blivet blowing hot air on the airwaves. He is an entertainer. According to your own metrics, entertainment doesn't influence us in anyway.

Or rather, it does. Just only when it's convenient for you.

[nadinbrzezinski]

110. All the science done on the effect of video games

Is bad science... Derided by fellow scientists for extremely bad methodology.

For the record, there is one incident, in te 1990s that might be tied to a certain video game. Even if the science was above reproach, one out of 30k yearly deaths is hardly statistically significant. Let's forget the few years since.

[KittyWampus]

116. Actually the science indicates that violent Media does effect us.

Does it lead directly to shooting someone? No.

It's more subtle than that.

Just like man's influence on weather patterns is more subtle.

Complex systems interacting with each other leads to indirect influences having an effect that isn't always immediate.

And my point stands. Either Media influences us or it does not.

Pick a lane.

[nadinbrzezinski]

118. I will pick a lane

As far as video games are concerned, the science is shoddy at best

Can you understand shades of gray? The shades of gray come from marketing research, which is not shoddy science. You see, shades of gray matter. It s not back and white as you intend it to be. If it were, Korea would be knee deep in blood.

[KittyWampus]

120. there is quite a bit of noteworthy science that violent gaming impacts

areas of our brain that deal with emotional control/aggressive behavior/empathy.

Also that is desensitizes us to violence.

Some of the research also indicates that peaceful games can foster the opposite.

[nadinbrzezinski]

126. And all the reviews I have read is the science specifically

To games is shoddy at best, coming from scientists themselves.

I am sure that they will find the holy grail to prove all games should be banned (the final objective) oh wait, they have, a few times, and the holy grail has been critiqued for being extremely shoddy science.

I am sure you also realize a game like grand theft auto, is rated mature...17 and above...so a parent that buys it for little Johnny is practicing very poor parenting.

There is an effect, we know from marketing research. American news media have a lot more to do with it, IMO, in what they chose to cover and chiefly how.

From listening to my local media you'd think gangs of minority people are prowling the streets looking for a mark...never mind national and local stats show it way down...and that is an example. Hence, from coverage, I should be scared out f my mind and go get a few guns. FYI, a discussion on that has actually started, as well as how much the media is actually sanitized.

There were pools of blood, take my word, at both Aurora and Newtown. I got to go watch Le Miserable to see the effect of violence?

You like that shoddy science since it confirms your bias. I have yet to find one study that is not heavily critiqued by the wider scientific community. This is agenda driven research. Yes, I have followed this for the last twenty years. It was first DnD, then Battletech (the kids at Columbine played it) then Vampire the Masquerade, now it is Grand theft auto.

No, it is guns, and the wide availability of it, and the glorification of violence and guns as a solution to all ills (where marketing comes in). There is the rub, of a weak safety net. there is some in SSRI use and research and their side effects. But there is no clear, holy grail, games are bad for you.

Sorry if these shades of gray are hard to comprehend. I know, it means it's complex...and not a silver bullet.

Have a good day pushing that simplistic crapola.

[randome]

129. Your own bias is showing when you say anyone wants to 'ban' video games.

That is not what anyone is talking about. Not on this thread.

[Posteritatis]

143. Also, Fox and Rush tend to actually call for action

GTA isn't telling me to go out, hotwire a car, and use it in various entropy-increasing off-label ways. Rush or Beck do actively encourage people to Do Things.

[99Forever]

78. False equivocate much?

[KittyWampus]

82. The subject is Media and whether it influences behavior, is it not? Pick a lane.

[99Forever]

131. Nope, Delicate Flower...

.. "the subject" is what can the NRA apologists do to divert the well earned anger and disgust We the People have with those that worship at the Altar of Lead Spewing Weapons of Death.

My "lane" is sanity.

[Puzzledtraveller]

84. I agree KittyWampus

I can loathe fox and rush but I loathe being in the company of hypocrites equally if not more and try myself to not add to that category.

[Zoeisright]

90. They're fucking inciting violence.

If you can't tell the difference, that's just pathetic.

[KittyWampus]

95. DU'ers blamed the tv show "24" for many believing torture works. As example #2.

And how can Rush "incite" violence any more than any other form of entertainment?

PICK A LANE.

I've picked mine. I KNOW that Media influences people. That's why corporations spend millions advertising.

The influence is subtle though. It's not an immediate "watch this violent movie & go commit murder".

[Fresh_Start]

83. so why doesn't the rest of the world which also sees the same movies and video games

not have the same problem?
Heck they usually see all this before it makes the US market.

And their TV has less censorship then ours so don't bother to blame TV either.

[Puzzledtraveller]

86. Well you see there are those that don't play violent video games, or watch violent films

therefore there is no valid reason for anyone else to enjoy those things or for them to exist.

[randome]

89. As Michael Moore pointed out, Americans are more fearful and hateful.

[Fresh_Start]

92. any analysis to back that up?

I don't know that I've seen any study about it one way or the other.

[randome]

98. No proof. I also don't have proof that climate change is caused by Man.

Or that cigarettes cause cancer.

When enough people think that looking at a wide range of possible interconnected causes is a good idea, what's wrong with some self-examination?

Hate radio. Torture porn movies. Violent video games.

What's wrong with looking at the influence of media on mentally disturbed individuals? Is there an outcome you fear will come from this?

[Fresh_Start]

112. actually there are plenty of studies

about climate change and cancer.

[Fresh_Start]

114. generally speaking science is a better tool

than belief for diagnostics and solutions.

[randome]

119. Sure.

But there is very little science that can predict human behavior. That's why diagnostics and inferences are better tools.

Biden is talking with the video gaming industry. Probably nothing will come of it but I'm glad it's a consideration.

[KittyWampus]

97. DING DING DING! And he also used MEDIA examples of how we are conditioned.

Killer bees from Africa…. scary black people coming to get you.

I come from the position that Media does influence us.

Corporations don't pay millions for advertising because it doesn't.

However, the ways Media influences are subtle and not as obvious as > watch a violent video game and go kill someone.

[green for victory]

137. he has also pointed out that every shooting has involved SSRI's

and wanted an investigation a few years ago.

[randome]

140. I sincerely hope that is on the table for Biden's task force, as well.

[Zoeisright]

88. There was MORE violence in the world BEFORE mass media

and video games.

[Kelvin Mace]

94. I think anything violent can set off an unbalanced mind

For example, The Bible.

But also, violent argument with coworkers, spouses, partners, classmates, politicians, CEO's of gun companies, racists, etc.

The world is chock full of violence. A deranged person may crack because of some incitement and act on the impulse.

However, the result of his actions are different depending on the tools he has at hand. A baseball bat, a knife, fists, or an automobile has a different outcomes than a massive arsenal.

[Tippy]

96. Well.......how about a gown man...a hunter...a member of the NRA

Shooting his TV while watching a violent movie...and he was cold sober.....

[JoeyT]

102. That train's never late!

I'd love to see a link to the study that claims a 250bpm heart rate. The only video game I could imagine doing that would be something like DDR or Wii fit on someone that never exercised at all.

[cynatnite]

106. Maybe it contributes to the mentality of how many in this country thinks...

Last edited Fri Jan 11, 2013, 02:00 PM - Edit history (1)

I've really struggled with this because we export our violent games, movies and whatnot to other countries who continue to be considerably less violent. It seems like the attitudes and fear which are easily manipulated in this country are less prevelant in others.

I don't believe violent entertainment is a good thing...especially in large doses, but I don't believe that in itself is the reason behind the level of violence in the US.

[Follow The Money]

107. no problem for most people, but the 2% that are sociopaths on psychoactive drugs with a bad reaction

combined with incitement by violent tv/video games...not a good combination.

I think it interesting to ask, what would our society be like if our television shows were proactive, relationships were positive, problems were communicated well and discussed and solved with an open mind, actors presented the very best of humanity for us to emulate?

In the 80's we had MacGuyver for instance, who hated guns. Although the criminals on the show did have guns, he used his intelligence to beat them, without a gun, every time. If he suddenly had access to a gun, rather than use it, he would dismantle it so no one else could use it against him.

[Motown_Johnny]

108. You are wrong.

You may as well say that race car video games and car chases in movies lead to reckless driving.

It may be that some people who have problems distinguishing between reality and fantasy might confuse the two. This does not mean that the games and media are the problem or even that they contribute to the problem. These people have issues that will continue to exist even if they have no exposure to these types of violent fantasies.


The truth is that an opposing argument also exists. That some people who may be prone to violence are able to vent their hostilities in a safe manner thanks to these video games.

There is exactly the same amount of evidence for each argument, none.



Oh, as for that #1 cause of death by shooting, you got that right. It is the video game stuff which you have talked yourself into that is nuts.

[Agnosticsherbet]

111. Yes, and a major part of my reason is a bit of history I read about WWI

In the early phase of WWI the U.S. military was having problems getting soldiers to shoot at other human beings, even after training with targets. They made a simple change and altered the shape of the target to human shape. After training shooting at human shaped targets soldiers lost much of their reluctance to shooting human shaped humans.

In many video games, especially first person shooters, people spend hours killing not simply human shaped targets but virtual humans. Whole genres have flourished on television and in movies around hyper violence, and the violence in these movies continues to be more graphic and realistic. What does that easy training to kill and to enjoy violence do to the human mind, especially the young whose brains continue to develop until they are twenty-five. What does it do to minds that are more amenable to suggestion or are already flawed to to other mental illnesses?

Edward Bernays made a science out of using media to influence human behavior. It does, and of that there is no doubt.

[Sekhmets Daughter]

113. I don't think the problem is the violent content...

I believe the problem rests within the individuals who are so removed from society they choose to spend countless hours playing video games. Millions of kids play these violent games and grow up to be perfectly normal, in fact most don't ever purchase a gun.

[A Simple Game]

115. I suspect more use it as an outlet than as an instruction manual.

But like you I am just making a guess.

[patrice]

117. I agree, but they are a symptom, not a root cause. Families are under assault from within and from

outside and conventional conservative ideas about how to respond to those problems can, on average, be at least in-appropriate if not outright full on dysfunctional for a significant number of persons a significant number of times in a significant cross-section of their experiential universe.

We need full parity for mental health services and that means not only for pathology, but also for preventative maintenance and coping skills for normal people too. Churches are businesses and people know it now, so they just aren't going to meet the need and mostly never did anyway.

[billh58]

134. As has been pointed out,

other countries citizens are exposed to exactly the same movies and games, and these influences may contribute to acts of violence everywhere.

The big difference, however, is that the USA promotes -- not just allows, but promotes -- easy access to guns for our society compared to other advanced countries. That is why we have more gun violence than any other comparable country in the world.

What you are really pointing out here is the conflict between the 1st and 2nd Amendments in this country. We most likely will not resort to censorship of movie and game content, but we can certainly regulate and control the access to guns in this country without violating the 2nd Amendment.

So yes, your premise about violent content in widespread graphic forms contributing to the general violent nature of the American society has merit, just as it does for other cultures as well. The fact remains that the USA has the highest gun-related death and injury rates in the civilized world, and we can and must address gun control immediately.

[sibelian]

138. Cause and effect aren't perfectly polarised here.

The information going in and the activity coming out of the human brain are going through the most complicated sytem known to exist. We can make educated assumptions about what's going on, but they're just assumptions.

[CBHagman]

141. They can be PART of the problem, but only part.

Gruesome entertainment, mob violence, the dehumanization of others? Not new, not even slightly. History is replete with examples.

What does concern me is that technology at present can be harnessed to increase narcissism, decrease empathy, and in general estrange someone from reality.

[XRubicon]

144. Yes. nt