what are your feelings of a church bringing in activites to teach Character ed in public schools

[sad-cafe]

http://252blog.com/2012/06/27/its-a-kidzworld-at-newspring-church/





Dan Kubish is the Children’s Pastor at NewSpring Church in Wichita, Kansas, where he has been on staff for 18 years. Dan and his wife Debbie have 5 children who are all active in the ministry at NewSpring with them. Here’s the story of the impact his team is making on their community. Learn more at http://kidzworldgang.com/

—————————————————————————————————————————————

In the fall of 2010, the KidzWorld staff at NewSpring Church in Wichita, Kan., dreamed about partnering with public schools in a way that would provide a positive impact for the administration, teachers and students. A couple of small opportunities arose as their team provided balloon animals for carnivals and even sponsored a ventriloquist program on bullying for one school.

One of their team members, who was highly involved in one elementary school, suggested to the principal that the team would love to present a high energy program designed to teach values—called them Big Ideas—to students. After further discussion with the principal at Seltzer Elementary, the first KidzWorld Gang assembly was scheduled at the school for February 2011.
>>More at link>>

[hrmjustin]

1. I am against it.

This is simply not a good idea at all.

[sad-cafe]

2. I don't see where they make any reference to religion

and schools are always looking for volunteers to do the things that they can't like character education

[Le Taz Hot]

35. Organized religion

is the LAST institution that needs to be bringing up values. "Values" has become the dog whistle for the fundamentalist faithful in this country. That would be the fundamentalist faithful with their homophobic, misogynist belief system. This is nothing more than the fundies' way to get into the school system through the back door. We used to teach ethics in school, which has been around since the Greeks (it's where we get the term) and there was absolutely nothing wrong with it. I don't see the need to trade ethics for "values."

[LeftofObama]

39. My thoughts exactly!

"This is nothing more than the fundies' way to get into the school system through the back door."

They will use any trick they can think of to get in and try to indoctrinate children to their right wing idiocy!

[Jeff In Milwaukee]

62. For starters, you're assuming that this is a fundamentalist church...

Secondly, as long as they keep scripture out of if, I see no difference between lessons of character building being taught by someone affiliated with a church (even a fundamentalist church) and someone who is religiously unaffiliated. Since about 80% of Americans are somehow affiliated with a church, you're draining the talent pool of presenters by banning faith-based organizations.

http://religions.pewforum.org/affiliations
Church Affiliation]

To be sure, the curriculum and the presentation should be monitored by the school, but so long as they maintain the wall of separation, I've got no issue with it.

[TM99]

43. Agreed

Ethics and the philosophical questions on how to live the 'good life', yes, definitely.

Morality, fundamentalist Christian style, hell no!

[obamanut2012]

46. Excellent post

[fascisthunter]

70. no shit

ya gotta be totally ignorant to think this is a good thing. Then again... they don't "think", they just believe.

[KittyWampus]

80. Are you familiar with Unitarians? Buddhists? Sikhs?

[hrmjustin]

91. I still don't think it is a good idea.

[NYC_SKP]

3. It depends on the content of their presentation.

I have no problem where they came from, church, temple, synagog, or non-denominational organization.

[sad-cafe]

4. teachers are always looking to bring things like this to the fore-front

but they can't because of their hands being tyed to specific curicculum



As long as they are not recruiting or trolling for members I don't think this is harmful

[99Forever]

66. Religous organizations are....

... ALWAYS trolling for members, without exception.

These holier-than-thou creeps can "teach about values" in their own church all they please.

Public institutions? Stay the fuck out, as the Constitution also gives us the RIGHT to be free FROM religion, if that is our CHOICE.

[NYC_SKP]

5. Uh Oh, They use Core Essentials which sponsors with Chik Fil A.

So disregard what I wrote above.

Link: http://www.coreessentials.org/elementary/pricing.html

[libdem4life]

6. Schools are in desperate need of warm and current ways to relate. Bullying is so major and they

don't know what to do about it. Bullies are kids who have lacked love at home...they are love magnets in the right atrmosphere. Racial tension, all manner of things, and spiritual people mean very well and have good tasks for kids. As long as there is no "altar call" or invitations to church, I'm good with it. Teachers and schools need all the good energy they can get.

[djean111]

67. Well, there are laws in some state(s) that say bullying gays IN SCHOOL

is okay if the bully's religion hates gays.
So - no.

[niyad]

7. welcome to DU--I am absolutely opposed to it--churches need to stay the hell away from

our public schools. quite frankly, the "character" of racist, sexist, homophobic, anti-science, anti-woman, tax-evading, pedophile-hiding bigots, is not something we should be encouraging.

isn't character something PARENTS are supposed to teach their children? yes, I know, many parents do not (witness the repukes and the tea-hadists, as two examples), but I still do not want churches--any of them-- teaching "character" in public schools.

[kiranon]

23. Agree. Religion belongs in houses of worship not in public schools.

[Buzz Clik]

8. In many ways, I do not have a problem with it.

The fact that it is in Kansas makes me nervous, but as long as they aren't bathing the kids in religious blah blah blah and it is not replacement any aspect of actual academic pursuits, it would be an interesting experiment.

[RKP5637]

10. It's a foot in the door, like a door-to-door salesman. I watched my small town destroyed by

religion and hatred.

[MuseRider]

72. It makes you nervous and it should make us all nervous.

Sam wants to solve childhood poverty by marriage. The list is endless and covenant marriage is apparently on the agenda this year as well.

This is exactly what he wants to see. From the article it seems they take religious stories and switch them up to present the same ending thereby keeping it "kosher". This is step one. Step two, bringing Jesus into it next and will be seen shortly I think. Perhaps after this next legislative session.

Since when do character and morals need to be taught by Christians? They have no claim to those things more than other religions or people without religion. This is the first step.

I agree with Taz above, these are the LAST people who should be allowed to teach character.

[Buzz Clik]

78. Bummer. Yet another fundie dipstick.

[RKP5637]

9. NO (period). n/t

[OswegoAtheist]

11. No.

And I'm not saying this only because it's a church, but because I feel that it's my job- and my responsibility, and my right as a parent- to teach "values" to my children. Even similar values can be framed and taught in very differing modes. But I think I'm in the minority on that.

Plus there's also this from OP link:

The first participating school, Seltzer, has done year-end parties and let their kids come to NewSpring church’s KidzWorld environments

for a movie, pizza and play time as rewards for excellence in school.

Bolding mine. That's not cool, and there's a suspicious part of me (based on mountains of prior instances) that believes that this is a backdoor proselytizing effort. I'm glad that there's an organisation (a church at that) which wants to do this for so many kids, and I'm sure that they mean nothing but the best, but I don't think that there's an effective way to ensure that the secular message the church is promoting doesn't cross over into the religious. Principals and school boards in this country are more than happy to cede this authority, and the judiciary can only be reactive, not proactive, when it comes to problems of church/state separation.

In the end, I think that the temptations are too great for the churches, the oversight just isn't there, and the parents should take more responsibility for teaching their children values.

Oswego "and in this perfect world, puppies shit lollipops and unicorns prance on rainbows" Atheist

[RoccoR5955]

12. Churches and Religion, in general

is only about for a need to control the masses, by means of fear and mythology.
i don't believe that anything positive could come from this, but more control by the church in charge.
They control their congregation, take their money, and feed them myths, that's all.

[ladjf]

13. A terrible idea! nt

[Downwinder]

14. I would probably point out that John Wesley Hardin's

father was a minister, as was Jesse and Frank James' father.

[Agnosticsherbet]

15. Separation of Church and state must be maintained.

What they will teach will be religious based. Let them hire a teacher trained and qualified, not a missionary.

[sad-cafe]

16. on the surface it looks like a win win situation

once you dig deeper, I started feeling discomfort over the project. I realize most of the people are volunteers not employees of the church. I do see how lines can be crossed and things could happen.

[Orrex]

17. I'm fine with this, as long as they let atheistic scientists give the sermon on Sundays

Sauce for the goose, etc.

[Le Taz Hot]

36. LOL!

Best response I've seen on DU in a long time.

[blkmusclmachine]

18. .

[blkmusclmachine]

20. The Good News Club WON in the US Supreme Court (2001) to infiltrate public school property.

Bad news.

[duffyduff]

24. Shouldn't be on school property, but it is actually harmless

I attended it back in the 1960s when I was in grades 1 and 6. It was little more than Sunday school lessons featuring Bible stories. I came from a non-religious family, but I got my mom's permission to attend the classes on Wednesdays during the lunch hour during what was known as "release time." I was never pressured to convert or anything.

[madfloridian]

85. That group should not be working in public schools, even after hours.

It is quite different from years ago, and it was pretty close-minded even back then.

You need to read this.

A book about proselytizing in public schools. "The Good News Club"

Think about introducing religious themes into science as is happening now, even in textbooks in some states.

"Although Stewart treats the missionaries fairly, the book is advocacy journalism at its strongest. The author does not mask her dismay at the success of the movement, and she is especially concerned that the evangelicals are laboring to skew textbooks so that all lessons revolve around the virtues of a Christian nation, and are pushing for the defunding of public education in favor of church-affiliated schools. At times Stewart's phrasing borders on alarmist, but she usually backs up the alarm with solid reporting. Some of the most poignant sections move away from policy debates to demonstrate how many evangelists have ripped the formerly positive fabric of student-teacher-administrator-parent cooperation, replacing it with warring camps—those who oppose the introduction of fundamentalist religion, those who favor it and those uncertain what to think."

More:

"Often, instructors arrive on campus before the bell rings. When young children exit their regular classrooms, they find the instructor outside the door bearing treats and trailing balloons. In Valencia, California, a parent of a kindergartener reported that the Good News Club actually started 15 minutes prior to the end of her child’s school day. The instructor, she said, would enter the classroom as kindergarten was winding down and perform a roll call-effectively segregating the children by religious affiliation."

[msongs]

19. considering what % of the nation's bullies practice their religion, I say no thanks nt

[spanone]

21. churches have NO PLACE in public schools. none. zip. nada. ziltch.

[liberal_at_heart]

22. It may be time for a home school revolution

Our public schools are already failing because of lack of funding and neither the republicans nor the democrats seem too interested in restoring funding to the public schools. And if the politicians are going to sit around and allow the 1% to purchase and dismantle our public school system anyway, then maybe it is time to take our kids education back into our own hands.

[niyad]

25. now, I found this bit interesting

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[Dawson Leery]

26. No.

This is a backdoor for the theocrats to indoctrinate our children.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

28. Christians do lots of sneaky things to indoctrinate people.

Discussed here:

www.jewsforjudaism.org

[Manifestor_of_Light]

27. I was subjected to JAMES ROBISON at our school, at an assembly in the gym.

Yes, THAT JAMES ROBISON, TV evangelist with a sizable audience.

How did they let him preach and sidestep the requirement that an assembly be secular?

He preached for an hour and never said the word "God" or "Jesus".
He talked about "the best friend you'll ever have."

I thought he was a complete asshole, and I could see how they were trying to sneak Jesus into the public schools.

He whined about how his mother wanted to abort him, in his "speech", and I thought, "Yeah you sure are an annoying asshole."

[cthulu2016]

29. I eagerly await the Muslim values camp

[xfundy]

30. Hell, no.

They talk a great deal about kids being "indoctrinated" in school. Because that's precisely their goal. They just want to get there first.

[JDPriestly]

31. If the school is funded by public money, it shouldn't do anything to establish religion.

So if the program is religious and establishes religion, then I don't think it is appropriate.

But the fact that people from a church teach values does not necessarily mean they are teaching religion or that the school is establishing or endorsing or approving religion.

If they are teaching good sportsmanship, being kind to others, playing fair, being honest, values like that and do it in a secular manner, then they are fine.

If religion is brought into the mix or if their work is linked to or attributed to their church, then the school should probably stay away from it.

It's different if a student talks about his or her religious experience because then it isn't the church or religion as an organization pushing its beliefs on kids.

[musette_sf]

32. "even sponsored a ventriloquist program"

My feelings are that I remember this Christian ventriloquist that &quot taught) character ed" - I used to watch this guy years ago in my Recreational Christianity research of the time, and I remember this particular episode....

http://www.trutv.com/library/crime/blog/2013/01/09/video-puppeteer-accused-of-planning-to-eat-kids-talks-porn-with-puppet/index.html

[intaglio]

33. NO, bad idea

... high energy program designed to teach values—called them Big Ideas—to students.

What values are we talking about here? A lot of what they teach seems to be used in Sunday Schools (according to book reviews)

Checked "Kidz World Gang" http://kidzworldgang.com/?page_id=483

The KidzWorld Gang Big Idea values are based on the curriculum from Core Essentials. Core Essentials is a non-profit organization that partners with Chick-fil-A to provide quality character building resources to schools.

Makes me very suspicious considering that Chick-fil-A considers Christianity to be at the heart of its business.

[mzteris]

34. Hell no. Nt

[cbrer]

37. TIME TO TAX THE CHURCHES. nt

[stultusporcos]

38. No religious Org or Group should be involved with Public Schools at all

But this is KS and well they have no problem with mixing gov and religion it seems.

So I say give it the Islam Test, what would be the outcry if a group of Muslims dared try to the same thing, what would be the states response?

[Heidi]

41. Welcome to DU, stultusporcos!

[Heidi]

40. Absolutely opposed. THEY do peddle religion in schools. From the blog you linked,

emphasis mine:

"The very first assembly promoted the Big Idea of Kindness and featured the story of the Good Samaritan with a twist. A “take-out” also was provided for the kids. Each of the 500 students got a Chinese take-out box with some cards that could be left anonymously when the student performed a random act of kindness. A blog was that was completely separate from the NewSpring website so kids could record their acts of kindness or recipients could post a message of thanks for the kindness. The first program was a fantastic success. Students and teachers loved it! There was great participation in the kindness project. And NewSpring was invited to come back every month."

__________

My view: The concept of kindness can be taught without resorting to the Bible for guidance. The "Good Samaritan" is a Bible story and I am opposed to sharing any Bible stories in school unless the topic at hand (like kindness) is approached from all other perspectives, including atheism -- and I do not for a moment believe that's likely.

[Buzz Clik]

42. A you familiar with the story of the Good Samaritan?

"A certain man was going down from Jerusalem to Jericho, and he fell among robbers, who both stripped him and beat him, and departed, leaving him half dead. By chance a certain priest was going down that way. When he saw him, he passed by on the other side. In the same way a Levite also, when he came to the place, and saw him, passed by on the other side. But a certain Samaritan, as he travelled, came where he was. When he saw him, he was moved with compassion, came to him, and bound up his wounds, pouring on oil and wine. He set him on his own animal, and brought him to an inn, and took care of him. On the next day, when he departed, he took out two denarii, and gave them to the host, and said to him, 'Take care of him. Whatever you spend beyond that, I will repay you when I return.' Now which of these three do you think seemed to be a neighbour to him who fell among the robbers?"

He said, "He who showed mercy on him."

Nothing religious about it. What would be the atheist version of this story?

[Heidi]

44. I was raised Southern Baptist. Of course I'm familiar with the story.

And in the context of the religious group teaching the Good Samaritan story in a public school, it is certainly a religious story, directly referencing God-prescribed morality.

The atheist version, in my opinion, is pretty simple: Be kind. Be merciful.

[Buzz Clik]

45. You would find it impossible to tell the story of the Good Samaritan without a religious context?

I don't.

[Heidi]

47. No, I wouldn't find it impossible. But I don't trust a church using a Core Essentials

values curriculum (which is sponsored by Chick-Fil-A) to convey the message in a way that is not religious or self serving.

ETA: So, no I wouldn't find it impossible. I would find it unlikely.

[Buzz Clik]

56. And that is the crux of our disagreement.

We both agree, however, that if this pastor proves incapable of filtering Jeebus and his invisible dad from the his lessons, then he should take off.

[obamanut2012]

50. Yes, because it's part of the New Testament

By definition, it is RELIGIOUS.

[Buzz Clik]

57. ok. we get it.

[obamanut2012]

59. It's quite apparemt you do not

[Buzz Clik]

61. Goodbye.

[Nikia]

75. A lot of literature and books and television is based on Biblical stories

Some of it is based on other religions, both historical and currently practiced.
The problem with your simple version is that stories can be more effective in teaching and retaining values than simple commandments. Even with work rules, I like to give example stories.
The Good Samaritan story could be told in a different context, out of early AD Judea. It may be in their program. You could even put the story on the play ground: Katie fell on the ice on the playground and was hurt and clothes dirtied. The "popular" kids that she hung around just walked past because they didn't want to be late coming in from recess. Sara had been made fun by Katie and her friends in the past but helped her. Would a story like that be bad because it was based on a story that many people know that happensto be in the Bible.

[Heidi]

79. Do you trust a values curriculum funded by Chick Fil A to use that context?

I do not.

[obamanut2012]

49. It's in the New Testament, of course it has a religious context

[Heidi]

51. And to further refute Buzz Clik, the Good Samaritan parable starts

at Luke 10:25, with Jesus himself and mention of two of God's laws, not at Luke 10:30 which Buzz Clik conveniently copied and pasted. Here is the full story (which I'm sure you already know).

Luke 10:25-37

New International Version (NIV)
The Parable of the Good Samaritan

25 On one occasion an expert in the law stood up to test Jesus. “Teacher,” he asked, “what must I do to inherit eternal life?”

26 “What is written in the Law?” he replied. “How do you read it?”

27 He answered, “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind’[a]; and, ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’”

28 “You have answered correctly,” Jesus replied. “Do this and you will live.”

29 But he wanted to justify himself, so he asked Jesus, “And who is my neighbor?”

30 In reply Jesus said: “A man was going down from Jerusalem to Jericho, when he was attacked by robbers. They stripped him of his clothes, beat him and went away, leaving him half dead. 31 A priest happened to be going down the same road, and when he saw the man, he passed by on the other side. 32 So too, a Levite, when he came to the place and saw him, passed by on the other side. 33 But a Samaritan, as he traveled, came where the man was; and when he saw him, he took pity on him. 34 He went to him and bandaged his wounds, pouring on oil and wine. Then he put the man on his own donkey, brought him to an inn and took care of him. 35 The next day he took out two denarii[c] and gave them to the innkeeper. ‘Look after him,’ he said, ‘and when I return, I will reimburse you for any extra expense you may have.’

36 “Which of these three do you think was a neighbor to the man who fell into the hands of robbers?”

37 The expert in the law replied, “The one who had mercy on him.”

Jesus told him, “Go and do likewise.”

[Buzz Clik]

54. I quoted the entirety of the story with no mention of anything religious at all.

You are bringing a bias into this conversation that I am fairly certain cannot be overcome.

[obamanut2012]

55. Thanks -- was going to check that, but was doing something

[Buzz Clik]

52. Ya think?

Jesus! (oops)

The point is not whether the story has a religious origin. The point is can this pastor tell the story (or anything similar) without bringing in the religious context. That's the only point.

If this pastor is some unhinged Kansas fruitcake that hates science and "fags" and wants to bring Jeebus into the classroom, it's game over. However, if his sole purpose is to extend kindergarten values (be nice to each other, think about someone other than yourself) into the numbered grades, why not?

[obamanut2012]

58. The point is that it is a religious story

It's source is the New Testament, so it is a religious story. Period.

Logic fail on your part, but you know that already.

[Buzz Clik]

60. More insults. Is that helping the discussion along?

It is NOT a religious story. Nowhere in the story is the mention of God or anything else religious.

You do realize that hundreds of stories are out there just like this one. Just because they have the same theme as the Good Samaritan (be kind to your neighbors) do you think they are all religious? If we changed all the names to be more updated, would you be fine with it? "The Good Canadian?"

[obamanut2012]

48. No -- never!

[Turbineguy]

53. I'm OK with it

as long as it's Benny Hinn.



After all, we are looking for exemplary moral character.

[madrchsod]

69. do`t have my glasses on ...did you write benny hinn or hill?

[rurallib]

63. Jesus Christ, NO!

[Greybnk48]

64. Bring in a Philosopher.

Someone who is trained properly.

[KittyWampus]

81. I highly recommend your post. The complete lack of education regarding philosophy & logic

is appalling. Even on DU, the ability to have an actual discussion regarding philosophy is limited.

[madrchsod]

65. no!

unless it`s made very clear to those involved that will be no mention of any affiliation with their church and no "preaching the word" they have no business there.

[Iggo]

68. I'm agin' it.

[VOX]

71. It'd be a blunder, similar to the Trojans dragging the Greek horse inside the city.

Initially, it sounds great, something positive, but...Unfortunately, I don't see any way this group could -- or would -- refrain from injecting a religious message at every turn.

If I wanted my kids to be exposed to religious teaching, I'd take them to Sunday School. Then they could eventually decide on their own if religion works for them or not.

But during their regular hours while attending a public school? No. Emphatically NO.

[BigDemVoter]

73. All I need to know is that it involves church and school. . .

I'm against it. There are too many other things to be doing, and wy is it that churches and/or religion are supposed to be so good about teaching/instilling values? I'm a devout atheist, and I don't need anybody from some church to come talk to me about my values.

Antibullying? yeah, we need to discuss it in schools, but really, is the only option to have churches come in and teach it?

[Separation]

74. Sorry, keep em out.

This is from a father whose children both go to private religious schools.

[City Lights]

76. I'm against it.

Churches should not be mixing it up with public schools, period.

[forestpath]

77. Churches do not belong in public schools under ANY circumstances.

If they want to teach "character," they can start their own schools.

[ancianita]

82. No way in hell.

[Nye Bevan]

83. Only proven atheists should be allowed to teach in public schools.

If a teacher believes in a God, you never know when they will sneak a bit of religious indoctrination into one of their classes.

At least that's the message I'm getting from this thread.

[11 Bravo]

86. I was SO ready to flame you!

Glad I took the time to read your entire post. I am a Christian who has been a teacher for over 35 years, and have never brought religion into the classroom. In fact, I am confidant that not one of the one thousand or so students whom I have taught have any idea what my religious beliefs are.

[Oilwellian]

84. Why haven't churches succeeded in producing citizens with good character?

If indeed 80% of Americans are affiliated with some type of religion in this country, one would think the good "values" they preach would be practiced in society today. Instead, we clearly see churches have failed miserably at instilling good "character" in their flocks. What makes us think they'd make a difference in our classrooms if they can't even succeed with their own dedicated members?

I'm sure we're more than capable of developing a curriculum that will teach children good character in our schools, without having the involvement of Chick Fil A backed religious zealots. I wouldn't want these people having access to my child's mind.

[agracie]

87. No No No !!! n/t

[Bjornsdotter]

88. No

...just no.

[Arugula Latte]

89. Church out of Schools!

Fucking religion...

[LiberalEsto]

90. Teach it at church, not school. nt